REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Global warming's terrifying new math

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 07:55
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Sunday, September 9, 2012 7:38 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


A long but good article:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-n
ew-math-20120719?link=mostpopular4&page=3


Quote:


If the pictures of those towering wildfires in Colorado haven't convinced you, or the size of your AC bill this summer, here are some hard numbers about climate change: June broke or tied 3,215 high-temperature records across the United States. That followed the warmest May on record for the Northern Hemisphere – the 327th consecutive month in which the temperature of the entire globe exceeded the 20th-century average, the odds of which occurring by simple chance were 3.7 x 10-99, a number considerably larger than the number of stars in the universe.

Meteorologists reported that this spring was the warmest ever recorded for our nation – in fact, it crushed the old record by so much that it represented the "largest temperature departure from average of any season on record." The same week, Saudi authorities reported that it had rained in Mecca despite a temperature of 109 degrees, the hottest downpour in the planet's history.

Not that our leaders seemed to notice. Last month the world's nations, meeting in Rio for the 20th-anniversary reprise of a massive 1992 environmental summit, accomplished nothing. Unlike George H.W. Bush, who flew in for the first conclave, Barack Obama didn't even attend. It was "a ghost of the glad, confident meeting 20 years ago," the British journalist George Monbiot wrote; no one paid it much attention, footsteps echoing through the halls "once thronged by multitudes." Since I wrote one of the first books for a general audience about global warming way back in 1989, and since I've spent the intervening decades working ineffectively to slow that warming, I can say with some confidence that we're losing the fight, badly and quickly – losing it because, most of all, we remain in denial about the peril that human civilization is in.

When we think about global warming at all, the arguments tend to be ideological, theological and economic. But to grasp the seriousness of our predicament, you just need to do a little math. For the past year, an easy and powerful bit of arithmetical analysis first published by financial analysts in the U.K. has been making the rounds of environmental conferences and journals, but it hasn't yet broken through to the larger public. This analysis upends most of the conventional political thinking about climate change. And it allows us to understand our precarious – our almost-but-not-quite-finally hopeless – position with three simple numbers.

The First Number: 2° Celsius

If the movie had ended in Hollywood fashion, the Copenhagen climate conference in 2009 would have marked the culmination of the global fight to slow a changing climate. The world's nations had gathered in the December gloom of the Danish capital for what a leading climate economist, Sir Nicholas Stern of Britain, called the "most important gathering since the Second World War, given what is at stake." As Danish energy minister Connie Hedegaard, who presided over the conference, declared at the time: "This is our chance. If we miss it, it could take years before we get a new and better one. If ever."

In the event, of course, we missed it. Copenhagen failed spectacularly. Neither China nor the United States, which between them are responsible for 40 percent of global carbon emissions, was prepared to offer dramatic concessions, and so the conference drifted aimlessly for two weeks until world leaders jetted in for the final day. Amid considerable chaos, President Obama took the lead in drafting a face-saving "Copenhagen Accord" that fooled very few. Its purely voluntary agreements committed no one to anything, and even if countries signaled their intentions to cut carbon emissions, there was no enforcement mechanism. "Copenhagen is a crime scene tonight," an angry Greenpeace official declared, "with the guilty men and women fleeing to the airport." Headline writers were equally brutal: COPENHAGEN: THE MUNICH OF OUR TIMES? asked one.

The accord did contain one important number, however. In Paragraph 1, it formally recognized "the scientific view that the increase in global temperature should be below two degrees Celsius." And in the very next paragraph, it declared that "we agree that deep cuts in global emissions are required... so as to hold the increase in global temperature below two degrees Celsius." By insisting on two degrees – about 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit – the accord ratified positions taken earlier in 2009 by the G8, and the so-called Major Economies Forum. It was as conventional as conventional wisdom gets. The number first gained prominence, in fact, at a 1995 climate conference chaired by Angela Merkel, then the German minister of the environment and now the center-right chancellor of the nation.

Some context: So far, we've raised the average temperature of the planet just under 0.8 degrees Celsius, and that has caused far more damage than most scientists expected. (A third of summer sea ice in the Arctic is gone, the oceans are 30 percent more acidic, and since warm air holds more water vapor than cold, the atmosphere over the oceans is a shocking five percent wetter, loading the dice for devastating floods.) Given those impacts, in fact, many scientists have come to think that two degrees is far too lenient a target. "Any number much above one degree involves a gamble," writes Kerry Emanuel of MIT, a leading authority on hurricanes, "and the odds become less and less favorable as the temperature goes up." Thomas Lovejoy, once the World Bank's chief biodiversity adviser, puts it like this: "If we're seeing what we're seeing today at 0.8 degrees Celsius, two degrees is simply too much." NASA scientist James Hansen, the planet's most prominent climatologist, is even blunter: "The target that has been talked about in international negotiations for two degrees of warming is actually a prescription for long-term disaster." At the Copenhagen summit, a spokesman for small island nations warned that many would not survive a two-degree rise: "Some countries will flat-out disappear." When delegates from developing nations were warned that two degrees would represent a "suicide pact" for drought-stricken Africa, many of them started chanting, "One degree, one Africa."

Despite such well-founded misgivings, political realism bested scientific data, and the world settled on the two-degree target – indeed, it's fair to say that it's the only thing about climate change the world has settled on. All told, 167 countries responsible for more than 87 percent of the world's carbon emissions have signed on to the Copenhagen Accord, endorsing the two-degree target. Only a few dozen countries have rejected it, including Kuwait, Nicaragua and Venezuela. Even the United Arab Emirates, which makes most of its money exporting oil and gas, signed on. The official position of planet Earth at the moment is that we can't raise the temperature more than two degrees Celsius – it's become the bottomest of bottom lines. Two degrees.


The Second Number: 565 Gigatons

Scientists estimate that humans can pour roughly 565 more gigatons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere by midcentury and still have some reasonable hope of staying below two degrees. ("Reasonable," in this case, means four chances in five, or somewhat worse odds than playing Russian roulette with a six-shooter.)

This idea of a global "carbon budget" emerged about a decade ago, as scientists began to calculate how much oil, coal and gas could still safely be burned. Since we've increased the Earth's temperature by 0.8 degrees so far, we're currently less than halfway to the target. But, in fact, computer models calculate that even if we stopped increasing CO2 now, the temperature would likely still rise another 0.8 degrees, as previously released carbon continues to overheat the atmosphere. That means we're already three-quarters of the way to the two-degree target.

How good are these numbers? No one is insisting that they're exact, but few dispute that they're generally right. The 565-gigaton figure was derived from one of the most sophisticated computer-simulation models that have been built by climate scientists around the world over the past few decades. And the number is being further confirmed by the latest climate-simulation models currently being finalized in advance of the next report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. "Looking at them as they come in, they hardly differ at all," says Tom Wigley, an Australian climatologist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research. "There's maybe 40 models in the data set now, compared with 20 before. But so far the numbers are pretty much the same. We're just fine-tuning things. I don't think much has changed over the last decade." William Collins, a senior climate scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, agrees. "I think the results of this round of simulations will be quite similar," he says. "We're not getting any free lunch from additional understanding of the climate system."

We're not getting any free lunch from the world's economies, either. With only a single year's lull in 2009 at the height of the financial crisis, we've continued to pour record amounts of carbon into the atmosphere, year after year. In late May, the International Energy Agency published its latest figures – CO2 emissions last year rose to 31.6 gigatons, up 3.2 percent from the year before. America had a warm winter and converted more coal-fired power plants to natural gas, so its emissions fell slightly; China kept booming, so its carbon output (which recently surpassed the U.S.) rose 9.3 percent; the Japanese shut down their fleet of nukes post-Fukushima, so their emissions edged up 2.4 percent. "There have been efforts to use more renewable energy and improve energy efficiency," said Corinne Le Quéré, who runs England's Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research. "But what this shows is that so far the effects have been marginal." In fact, study after study predicts that carbon emissions will keep growing by roughly three percent a year – and at that rate, we'll blow through our 565-gigaton allowance in 16 years, around the time today's preschoolers will be graduating from high school. "The new data provide further evidence that the door to a two-degree trajectory is about to close," said Fatih Birol, the IEA's chief economist. In fact, he continued, "When I look at this data, the trend is perfectly in line with a temperature increase of about six degrees." That's almost 11 degrees Fahrenheit, which would create a planet straight out of science fiction.

So, new data in hand, everyone at the Rio conference renewed their ritual calls for serious international action to move us back to a two-degree trajectory. The charade will continue in November, when the next Conference of the Parties (COP) of the U.N. Framework Convention on Climate Change convenes in Qatar. This will be COP 18 – COP 1 was held in Berlin in 1995, and since then the process has accomplished essentially nothing. Even scientists, who are notoriously reluctant to speak out, are slowly overcoming their natural preference to simply provide data. "The message has been consistent for close to 30 years now," Collins says with a wry laugh, "and we have the instrumentation and the computer power required to present the evidence in detail. If we choose to continue on our present course of action, it should be done with a full evaluation of the evidence the scientific community has presented." He pauses, suddenly conscious of being on the record. "I should say, a fuller evaluation of the evidence."

So far, though, such calls have had little effect. We're in the same position we've been in for a quarter-century: scientific warning followed by political inaction. Among scientists speaking off the record, disgusted candor is the rule. One senior scientist told me, "You know those new cigarette packs, where governments make them put a picture of someone with a hole in their throats? Gas pumps should have something like that."

The Third Number: 2,795 Gigatons

This number is the scariest of all – one that, for the first time, meshes the political and scientific dimensions of our dilemma. It was highlighted last summer by the Carbon Tracker Initiative, a team of London financial analysts and environmentalists who published a report in an effort to educate investors about the possible risks that climate change poses to their stock portfolios. The number describes the amount of carbon already contained in the proven coal and oil and gas reserves of the fossil-fuel companies, and the countries (think Venezuela or Kuwait) that act like fossil-fuel companies. In short, it's the fossil fuel we're currently planning to burn. And the key point is that this new number – 2,795 – is higher than 565. Five times higher.

The Carbon Tracker Initiative – led by James Leaton, an environmentalist who served as an adviser at the accounting giant PricewaterhouseCoopers – combed through proprietary databases to figure out how much oil, gas and coal the world's major energy companies hold in reserve. The numbers aren't perfect – they don't fully reflect the recent surge in unconventional energy sources like shale gas, and they don't accurately reflect coal reserves, which are subject to less stringent reporting requirements than oil and gas. But for the biggest companies, the figures are quite exact: If you burned everything in the inventories of Russia's Lukoil and America's ExxonMobil, for instance, which lead the list of oil and gas companies, each would release more than 40 gigatons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.

Which is exactly why this new number, 2,795 gigatons, is such a big deal. Think of two degrees Celsius as the legal drinking limit – equivalent to the 0.08 blood-alcohol level below which you might get away with driving home. The 565 gigatons is how many drinks you could have and still stay below that limit – the six beers, say, you might consume in an evening. And the 2,795 gigatons? That's the three 12-packs the fossil-fuel industry has on the table, already opened and ready to pour.

We have five times as much oil and coal and gas on the books as climate scientists think is safe to burn. We'd have to keep 80 percent of those reserves locked away underground to avoid that fate. Before we knew those numbers, our fate had been likely. Now, barring some massive intervention, it seems certain.

Yes, this coal and gas and oil is still technically in the soil. But it's already economically aboveground – it's figured into share prices, companies are borrowing money against it, nations are basing their budgets on the presumed returns from their patrimony. It explains why the big fossil-fuel companies have fought so hard to prevent the regulation of carbon dioxide – those reserves are their primary asset, the holding that gives their companies their value. It's why they've worked so hard these past years to figure out how to unlock the oil in Canada's tar sands, or how to drill miles beneath the sea, or how to frack the Appalachians.


If you told Exxon or Lukoil that, in order to avoid wrecking the climate, they couldn't pump out their reserves, the value of their companies would plummet. John Fullerton, a former managing director at JP Morgan who now runs the Capital Institute, calculates that at today's market value, those 2,795 gigatons of carbon emissions are worth about $27 trillion. Which is to say, if you paid attention to the scientists and kept 80 percent of it underground, you'd be writing off $20 trillion in assets. The numbers aren't exact, of course, but that carbon bubble makes the housing bubble look small by comparison. It won't necessarily burst – we might well burn all that carbon, in which case investors will do fine. But if we do, the planet will crater. You can have a healthy fossil-fuel balance sheet, or a relatively healthy planet – but now that we know the numbers, it looks like you can't have both. Do the math: 2,795 is five times 565. That's how the story ends.

So far, as I said at the start, environmental efforts to tackle global warming have failed. The planet's emissions of carbon dioxide continue to soar, especially as developing countries emulate (and supplant) the industries of the West. Even in rich countries, small reductions in emissions offer no sign of the real break with the status quo we'd need to upend the iron logic of these three numbers. Germany is one of the only big countries that has actually tried hard to change its energy mix; on one sunny Saturday in late May, that northern-latitude nation generated nearly half its power from solar panels within its borders. That's a small miracle – and it demonstrates that we have the technology to solve our problems. But we lack the will. So far, Germany's the exception; the rule is ever more carbon.

This record of failure means we know a lot about what strategies don't work. Green groups, for instance, have spent a lot of time trying to change individual lifestyles: the iconic twisty light bulb has been installed by the millions, but so have a new generation of energy-sucking flatscreen TVs. Most of us are fundamentally ambivalent about going green: We like cheap flights to warm places, and we're certainly not going to give them up if everyone else is still taking them. Since all of us are in some way the beneficiaries of cheap fossil fuel, tackling climate change has been like trying to build a movement against yourself – it's as if the gay-rights movement had to be constructed entirely from evangelical preachers, or the abolition movement from slaveholders.

People perceive – correctly – that their individual actions will not make a decisive difference in the atmospheric concentration of CO2; by 2010, a poll found that "while recycling is widespread in America and 73 percent of those polled are paying bills online in order to save paper," only four percent had reduced their utility use and only three percent had purchased hybrid cars. Given a hundred years, you could conceivably change lifestyles enough to matter – but time is precisely what we lack.

A more efficient method, of course, would be to work through the political system, and environmentalists have tried that, too, with the same limited success. They've patiently lobbied leaders, trying to convince them of our peril and assuming that politicians would heed the warnings. Sometimes it has seemed to work. Barack Obama, for instance, campaigned more aggressively about climate change than any president before him – the night he won the nomination, he told supporters that his election would mark the moment "the rise of the oceans began to slow and the planet began to heal." And he has achieved one significant change: a steady increase in the fuel efficiency mandated for automobiles. It's the kind of measure, adopted a quarter-century ago, that would have helped enormously. But in light of the numbers I've just described, it's obviously a very small start indeed.

At this point, effective action would require actually keeping most of the carbon the fossil-fuel industry wants to burn safely in the soil, not just changing slightly the speed at which it's burned. And there the president, apparently haunted by the still-echoing cry of "Drill, baby, drill," has gone out of his way to frack and mine. His secretary of interior, for instance, opened up a huge swath of the Powder River Basin in Wyoming for coal extraction: The total basin contains some 67.5 gigatons worth of carbon (or more than 10 percent of the available atmospheric space). He's doing the same thing with Arctic and offshore drilling; in fact, as he explained on the stump in March, "You have my word that we will keep drilling everywhere we can... That's a commitment that I make." The next day, in a yard full of oil pipe in Cushing, Oklahoma, the president promised to work on wind and solar energy but, at the same time, to speed up fossil-fuel development: "Producing more oil and gas here at home has been, and will continue to be, a critical part of an all-of-the-above energy strategy." That is, he's committed to finding even more stock to add to the 2,795-gigaton inventory of unburned carbon.

Sometimes the irony is almost Borat-scale obvious: In early June, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton traveled on a Norwegian research trawler to see firsthand the growing damage from climate change. "Many of the predictions about warming in the Arctic are being surpassed by the actual data," she said, describing the sight as "sobering." But the discussions she traveled to Scandinavia to have with other foreign ministers were mostly about how to make sure Western nations get their share of the estimated $9 trillion in oil (that's more than 90 billion barrels, or 37 gigatons of carbon) that will become accessible as the Arctic ice melts. Last month, the Obama administration indicated that it would give Shell permission to start drilling in sections of the Arctic.

Almost every government with deposits of hydrocarbons straddles the same divide. Canada, for instance, is a liberal democracy renowned for its internationalism – no wonder, then, that it signed on to the Kyoto treaty, promising to cut its carbon emissions substantially by 2012. But the rising price of oil suddenly made the tar sands of Alberta economically attractive – and since, as NASA climatologist James Hansen pointed out in May, they contain as much as 240 gigatons of carbon (or almost half of the available space if we take the 565 limit seriously), that meant Canada's commitment to Kyoto was nonsense. In December, the Canadian government withdrew from the treaty before it faced fines for failing to meet its commitments.

The same kind of hypocrisy applies across the ideological board: In his speech to the Copenhagen conference, Venezuela's Hugo Chavez quoted Rosa Luxemburg, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and "Christ the Redeemer," insisting that "climate change is undoubtedly the most devastating environmental problem of this century." But the next spring, in the Simon Bolivar Hall of the state-run oil company, he signed an agreement with a consortium of international players to develop the vast Orinoco tar sands as "the most significant engine for a comprehensive development of the entire territory and Venezuelan population." The Orinoco deposits are larger than Alberta's – taken together, they'd fill up the whole available atmospheric space.

So: the paths we have tried to tackle global warming have so far produced only gradual, halting shifts. A rapid, transformative change would require building a movement, and movements require enemies. As John F. Kennedy put it, "The civil rights movement should thank God for Bull Connor. He's helped it as much as Abraham Lincoln." And enemies are what climate change has lacked.

But what all these climate numbers make painfully, usefully clear is that the planet does indeed have an enemy – one far more committed to action than governments or individuals. Given this hard math, we need to view the fossil-fuel industry in a new light. It has become a rogue industry, reckless like no other force on Earth. It is Public Enemy Number One to the survival of our planetary civilization. "Lots of companies do rotten things in the course of their business – pay terrible wages, make people work in sweatshops – and we pressure them to change those practices," says veteran anti-corporate leader Naomi Klein, who is at work on a book about the climate crisis. "But these numbers make clear that with the fossil-fuel industry, wrecking the planet is their business model. It's what they do."

According to the Carbon Tracker report, if Exxon burns its current reserves, it would use up more than seven percent of the available atmospheric space between us and the risk of two degrees. BP is just behind, followed by the Russian firm Gazprom, then Chevron, ConocoPhillips and Shell, each of which would fill between three and four percent. Taken together, just these six firms, of the 200 listed in the Carbon Tracker report, would use up more than a quarter of the remaining two-degree budget. Severstal, the Russian mining giant, leads the list of coal companies, followed by firms like BHP Billiton and Peabody. The numbers are simply staggering – this industry, and this industry alone, holds the power to change the physics and chemistry of our planet, and they're planning to use it.

They're clearly cognizant of global warming – they employ some of the world's best scientists, after all, and they're bidding on all those oil leases made possible by the staggering melt of Arctic ice. And yet they relentlessly search for more hydrocarbons – in early March, Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson told Wall Street analysts that the company plans to spend $37 billion a year through 2016 (about $100 million a day) searching for yet more oil and gas.


There's not a more reckless man on the planet than Tillerson. Late last month, on the same day the Colorado fires reached their height, he told a New York audience that global warming is real, but dismissed it as an "engineering problem" that has "engineering solutions." Such as? "Changes to weather patterns that move crop-production areas around – we'll adapt to that." This in a week when Kentucky farmers were reporting that corn kernels were "aborting" in record heat, threatening a spike in global food prices. "The fear factor that people want to throw out there to say, 'We just have to stop this,' I do not accept," Tillerson said. Of course not – if he did accept it, he'd have to keep his reserves in the ground. Which would cost him money. It's not an engineering problem, in other words – it's a greed problem.

You could argue that this is simply in the nature of these companies – that having found a profitable vein, they're compelled to keep mining it, more like efficient automatons than people with free will. But as the Supreme Court has made clear, they are people of a sort. In fact, thanks to the size of its bankroll, the fossil-fuel industry has far more free will than the rest of us. These companies don't simply exist in a world whose hungers they fulfill – they help create the boundaries of that world.

Left to our own devices, citizens might decide to regulate carbon and stop short of the brink; according to a recent poll, nearly two-thirds of Americans would back an international agreement that cut carbon emissions 90 percent by 2050. But we aren't left to our own devices. The Koch brothers, for instance, have a combined wealth of $50 billion, meaning they trail only Bill Gates on the list of richest Americans. They've made most of their money in hydrocarbons, they know any system to regulate carbon would cut those profits, and they reportedly plan to lavish as much as $200 million on this year's elections. In 2009, for the first time, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce surpassed both the Republican and Democratic National Committees on political spending; the following year, more than 90 percent of the Chamber's cash went to GOP candidates, many of whom deny the existence of global warming. Not long ago, the Chamber even filed a brief with the EPA urging the agency not to regulate carbon – should the world's scientists turn out to be right and the planet heats up, the Chamber advised, "populations can acclimatize to warmer climates via a range of behavioral, physiological and technological adaptations." As radical goes, demanding that we change our physiology seems right up there.

Environmentalists, understandably, have been loath to make the fossil-fuel industry their enemy, respecting its political power and hoping instead to convince these giants that they should turn away from coal, oil and gas and transform themselves more broadly into "energy companies." Sometimes that strategy appeared to be working – emphasis on appeared. Around the turn of the century, for instance, BP made a brief attempt to restyle itself as "Beyond Petroleum," adapting a logo that looked like the sun and sticking solar panels on some of its gas stations. But its investments in alternative energy were never more than a tiny fraction of its budget for hydrocarbon exploration, and after a few years, many of those were wound down as new CEOs insisted on returning to the company's "core business." In December, BP finally closed its solar division. Shell shut down its solar and wind efforts in 2009. The five biggest oil companies have made more than $1 trillion in profits since the millennium – there's simply too much money to be made on oil and gas and coal to go chasing after zephyrs and sunbeams.

Much of that profit stems from a single historical accident: Alone among businesses, the fossil-fuel industry is allowed to dump its main waste, carbon dioxide, for free. Nobody else gets that break – if you own a restaurant, you have to pay someone to cart away your trash, since piling it in the street would breed rats. But the fossil-fuel industry is different, and for sound historical reasons: Until a quarter-century ago, almost no one knew that CO2 was dangerous. But now that we understand that carbon is heating the planet and acidifying the oceans, its price becomes the central issue.

If you put a price on carbon, through a direct tax or other methods, it would enlist markets in the fight against global warming. Once Exxon has to pay for the damage its carbon is doing to the atmosphere, the price of its products would rise. Consumers would get a strong signal to use less fossil fuel – every time they stopped at the pump, they'd be reminded that you don't need a semimilitary vehicle to go to the grocery store. The economic playing field would now be a level one for nonpolluting energy sources. And you could do it all without bankrupting citizens – a so-called "fee-and-dividend" scheme would put a hefty tax on coal and gas and oil, then simply divide up the proceeds, sending everyone in the country a check each month for their share of the added costs of carbon. By switching to cleaner energy sources, most people would actually come out ahead.

There's only one problem: Putting a price on carbon would reduce the profitability of the fossil-fuel industry. After all, the answer to the question "How high should the price of carbon be?" is "High enough to keep those carbon reserves that would take us past two degrees safely in the ground." The higher the price on carbon, the more of those reserves would be worthless. The fight, in the end, is about whether the industry will succeed in its fight to keep its special pollution break alive past the point of climate catastrophe, or whether, in the economists' parlance, we'll make them internalize those externalities.

It's not clear, of course, that the power of the fossil-fuel industry can be broken. The U.K. analysts who wrote the Carbon Tracker report and drew attention to these numbers had a relatively modest goal – they simply wanted to remind investors that climate change poses a very real risk to the stock prices of energy companies. Say something so big finally happens (a giant hurricane swamps Manhattan, a megadrought wipes out Midwest agriculture) that even the political power of the industry is inadequate to restrain legislators, who manage to regulate carbon. Suddenly those Chevron reserves would be a lot less valuable, and the stock would tank. Given that risk, the Carbon Tracker report warned investors to lessen their exposure, hedge it with some big plays in alternative energy.

"The regular process of economic evolution is that businesses are left with stranded assets all the time," says Nick Robins, who runs HSBC's Climate Change Centre. "Think of film cameras, or typewriters. The question is not whether this will happen. It will. Pension systems have been hit by the dot-com and credit crunch. They'll be hit by this." Still, it hasn't been easy to convince investors, who have shared in the oil industry's record profits. "The reason you get bubbles," sighs Leaton, "is that everyone thinks they're the best analyst – that they'll go to the edge of the cliff and then jump back when everyone else goes over."

So pure self-interest probably won't spark a transformative challenge to fossil fuel. But moral outrage just might – and that's the real meaning of this new math. It could, plausibly, give rise to a real movement.

Once, in recent corporate history, anger forced an industry to make basic changes. That was the campaign in the 1980s demanding divestment from companies doing business in South Africa. It rose first on college campuses and then spread to municipal and state governments; 155 campuses eventually divested, and by the end of the decade, more than 80 cities, 25 states and 19 counties had taken some form of binding economic action against companies connected to the apartheid regime. "The end of apartheid stands as one of the crowning accomplishments of the past century," as Archbishop Desmond Tutu put it, "but we would not have succeeded without the help of international pressure," especially from "the divestment movement of the 1980s."


The fossil-fuel industry is obviously a tougher opponent, and even if you could force the hand of particular companies, you'd still have to figure out a strategy for dealing with all the sovereign nations that, in effect, act as fossil-fuel companies. But the link for college students is even more obvious in this case. If their college's endowment portfolio has fossil-fuel stock, then their educations are being subsidized by investments that guarantee they won't have much of a planet on which to make use of their degree. (The same logic applies to the world's largest investors, pension funds, which are also theoretically interested in the future – that's when their members will "enjoy their retirement.") "Given the severity of the climate crisis, a comparable demand that our institutions dump stock from companies that are destroying the planet would not only be appropriate but effective," says Bob Massie, a former anti-apartheid activist who helped found the Investor Network on Climate Risk. "The message is simple: We have had enough. We must sever the ties with those who profit from climate change – now."

Movements rarely have predictable outcomes. But any campaign that weakens the fossil-fuel industry's political standing clearly increases the chances of retiring its special breaks. Consider President Obama's signal achievement in the climate fight, the large increase he won in mileage requirements for cars. Scientists, environmentalists and engineers had advocated such policies for decades, but until Detroit came under severe financial pressure, it was politically powerful enough to fend them off. If people come to understand the cold, mathematical truth – that the fossil-fuel industry is systematically undermining the planet's physical systems – it might weaken it enough to matter politically. Exxon and their ilk might drop their opposition to a fee-and-dividend solution; they might even decide to become true energy companies, this time for real.

Even if such a campaign is possible, however, we may have waited too long to start it. To make a real difference – to keep us under a temperature increase of two degrees – you'd need to change carbon pricing in Washington, and then use that victory to leverage similar shifts around the world. At this point, what happens in the U.S. is most important for how it will influence China and India, where emissions are growing fastest. (In early June, researchers concluded that China has probably under-reported its emissions by up to 20 percent.) The three numbers I've described are daunting – they may define an essentially impossible future. But at least they provide intellectual clarity about the greatest challenge humans have ever faced. We know how much we can burn, and we know who's planning to burn more. Climate change operates on a geological scale and time frame, but it's not an impersonal force of nature; the more carefully you do the math, the more thoroughly you realize that this is, at bottom, a moral issue; we have met the enemy and they is Shell.

Meanwhile the tide of numbers continues. The week after the Rio conference limped to its conclusion, Arctic sea ice hit the lowest level ever recorded for that date. Last month, on a single weekend, Tropical Storm Debby dumped more than 20 inches of rain on Florida – the earliest the season's fourth-named cyclone has ever arrived. At the same time, the largest fire in New Mexico history burned on, and the most destructive fire in Colorado's annals claimed 346 homes in Colorado Springs – breaking a record set the week before in Fort Collins. This month, scientists issued a new study concluding that global warming has dramatically increased the likelihood of severe heat and drought – days after a heat wave across the Plains and Midwest broke records that had stood since the Dust Bowl, threatening this year's harvest. You want a big number? In the course of this month, a quadrillion kernels of corn need to pollinate across the grain belt, something they can't do if temperatures remain off the charts. Just like us, our crops are adapted to the Holocene, the 11,000-year period of climatic stability we're now leaving... in the dust.


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Sunday, September 9, 2012 8:19 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


With 7 billion people living in an economic model where vested interests drive global warming forward, the question is can we turn around our behavior across the planet soon enough to enough of a degree that we'll avoid the extremes of global warming.

Can we quickly turn around the economic behavior of 7 billion people when our lives depend on it?

I think the answer is no.

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Sunday, September 9, 2012 10:23 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
With 7 billion people living in an economic model where vested interests drive global warming forward, the question is can we turn around our behavior across the planet soon enough to enough of a degree that we'll avoid the extremes of global warming.

Can we quickly turn around the economic behavior of 7 billion people when our lives depend on it?

I think the answer is no.



This is why I wonder why, instead of trying to stop or reverse global warming, (which is gonna be impossible to do, what with the folks in China and India wanting the same standard of living as the West) we don't spend our effort on preparing for it. Building more levees, planning for relocation away from low-lying coasts, preparing for agriculture to move to new temperate areas, etc.

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Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


While China consumes a lot of energy as a country, it's b/c it has a lot of people.


But it's energy systems and policies are quite conserving per capita as they recognize that waste is something that benefits no one.



And considering that China has a far larger economy than India and a higher standard of living, it's gdp-ratioed energy efficiency is good.




Per gdp and per capita, China is an efficiency energy consumer.



It's probably not a good idea to point the finger at China at least, as 'the' cause of global warming. Especially considering that we now are paying for what was done decades in the past. And the people who did that - and are still doing that - would be us.

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Sunday, September 9, 2012 2:15 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
This is why I wonder why, instead of trying to stop or reverse global warming, (which is gonna be impossible to do, ...

You're missing the point. The global warming scare is about wanting control over population fuel consumption. GW gives govts and authoritarians a rationale for controlling consumption. Actually solving real problems is secondary.

Besides disasters are good for rationalizing even more govt control. Prevention doesn't earn any political points.

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Sunday, September 9, 2012 3:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
With 7 billion people living in an economic model where vested interests drive global warming forward, the question is can we turn around our behavior across the planet soon enough to enough of a degree that we'll avoid the extremes of global warming.

Can we quickly turn around the economic behavior of 7 billion people when our lives depend on it?

I think the answer is no.



This is why I wonder why, instead of trying to stop or reverse global warming, (which is gonna be impossible to do, what with the folks in China and India wanting the same standard of living as the West) we don't spend our effort on preparing for it. Building more levees, planning for relocation away from low-lying coasts, preparing for agriculture to move to new temperate areas, etc.




Short answer? Because those things cost money. It's cheaper and easier, apparently, to bury one's head in the sand, put one's fingers in one's ears, and yell "LALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" than it is to face the problem.

Hell, at least one state has proposed legislation making it illegal to bring up the topic of rising ocean levels. That oughta fix the problem!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, September 9, 2012 4:22 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
It's probably not a good idea to point the finger at China at least, as 'the' cause of global warming.



Nope. Everyone who wants the benefits of modern technology is the cause.

But China and India have large populations that are going to want the perks that come with their economic development. They're going to want to quit cooking over open fires and have stoves and fridges and TVs and scooters and cars and fans and air conditioning and all those things we in the U.S. are used to and aren't likely to give up. China is building coal-fired electric plants at a fantastic rate, and will probably continue to do so. They have lots of coal and lots of folks who want the stuff you and I take for granted.

Even if the West as a whole were able to get CO emissions back to 1990 levels, if China and India start producing CO at that level per capita (not to mention South America and Africa), we're still going to have a lot of CO produced.


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Sunday, September 9, 2012 4:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, I've been through this before, but if we were to look at the amount of energy required to fuel the American lifestyle, it's roughly 10,400 watts per person. (Not sure of the units, they don't make sense, but I can use the numbers for comparison.)

Europe uses about half that per person. Their lifestyle is in some ways worse, and in some ways better than ours, but roughly the same or perhaps a little better.

Costa Rica uses about 1/10 of the USA at 1,000. Their standard of living is definitely lower than ours but still tolerable (Even THEY have universal free healthcare.) China is slightly higher than Costa Rica, about 1500, but they are a manufacturing powerhouse.

If we were to cut our energy consumption in half, we could probably maintain much of our standard of living. And if we could somehow take all of that "excess" energy, it would be enough the bring India, Pakistan, and all of Africa up to Costa Rican standards....all of those nations would see a vast improvement over what they have now. AND if we could make wealth more equal in the USA, most of us would experience and INCREASED standard of living. AND if we could partially switch over to more sustainable energy sources we could reduce our carbon footprint and increase our standard of living.

Along those lines would have to be some form of birth control. Also, creating north-south corridors for species migration, pre-planting more heat tolerant native species further north, doing a MUCH better job of forest management and water conservation, and setting aside more underwater protection zones. A lot could be done, but none of it will be.

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Sunday, September 9, 2012 6:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Nope. Everyone who wants the benefits of modern technology is the cause."

That's just plain stupid. It's possible to have modern technology that's EFFICIENT, and SUSTAINABLE.


Here's a tidbit and the link where it came from:

http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2012/08/common-metals-can-make
-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels?et_cid=2808538&et_rid=290390323&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.laboratoryequipment.com%2fnews%2f2012%2f08%2fcommon-metals-can-make-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels


With enough sunlight falling on home roofs to supply AT LEAST HALF of America’s electricity ... (emphasis mine)

We could reduce our total energy consumption by 50% and have the same standard of living as Europe. We could supply half of our electricity through solar power.

So, going by this chart total energy consumption is about 300 million BTU per person in the US in 2009.



Total electricity consumption per capita in the US in 2007 is 13,600kwh which is 46.4 million BTU http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/energy



So, if we could save half our total energy use by avoiding waste we could reduce per capita energy consumption to 150 million BTU. Assuming we cut electricity use in half, electricity use would be cut to 23.2 million BTU per person. And assuming we could generate half of that from solar power, we could cut greenhouse gases from electricity by another 16.2 million BTU equivalent.

Through avoiding waste and solar power, we could cut greenhouse gas generation PER PERSON by the equivalent of 166.2 million BTU.


But back in 2004 a study was done that said 'Technology already exists to stabilize global warming' https://www.princeton.edu/pr/news/04/q3/0812-carbon.htm

This isn't a problem of China, or India, or 'them' wanting 'technology'. This is about US wasting huge amounts of energy and generating huge amounts of greenhouse gases, and expecting the rest of the world to make up for it.



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Sunday, September 9, 2012 7:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I also think it is a case of established, wealthy, powerful interests (oil companies, coal companies, automobile manufacturers, nuclear energy) using their money and influence to continue wringing subsidies from the government ... while complaining about subsidies to other technologies and oh btw squashing innovative technology. Also, the military CANNOT run on solar and batteries, and if we had energy independence what the frak would we need them for??? So the military is probably even more invested in oil than the general economy, as well as being vested in nuclear power.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 3:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Nope. Everyone who wants the benefits of modern technology is the cause."

That's just plain stupid. It's possible to have modern technology that's EFFICIENT, and SUSTAINABLE.


Here's a tidbit and the link where it came from:

http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2012/08/common-metals-can-make
-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels?et_cid=2808538&et_rid=290390323&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.laboratoryequipment.com%2fnews%2f2012%2f08%2fcommon-metals-can-make-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels


With enough sunlight falling on home roofs to supply AT LEAST HALF of America’s electricity ... (emphasis mine)

We could reduce our total energy consumption by 50% and have the same standard of living as Europe. We could supply half of our electricity through solar power.



So where do we store this electricity at night or when it's cloudy?

If you find a storage solution, any estimates on the cost of building and installing this system nationwide?

Assuming we were able to do this, would other countries be willing to go along, instead of using coal plants that will be cheaper and easier to build for at least a couple of decades?

Kiki.

I've seen articles like this all my life, and I still don't have my flying car.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 4:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Nope. Everyone who wants the benefits of modern technology is the cause."

That's just plain stupid. It's possible to have modern technology that's EFFICIENT, and SUSTAINABLE.


Here's a tidbit and the link where it came from:

http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2012/08/common-metals-can-make
-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels?et_cid=2808538&et_rid=290390323&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.laboratoryequipment.com%2fnews%2f2012%2f08%2fcommon-metals-can-make-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels


With enough sunlight falling on home roofs to supply AT LEAST HALF of America’s electricity ... (emphasis mine)

We could reduce our total energy consumption by 50% and have the same standard of living as Europe. We could supply half of our electricity through solar power.



So where do we store this electricity at night or when it's cloudy?

If you find a storage solution, any estimates on the cost of building and installing this system nationwide?

Assuming we were able to do this, would other countries be willing to go along, instead of using coal plants that will be cheaper and easier to build for at least a couple of decades?

Kiki.

I've seen articles like this all my life, and I still don't have my flying car.




I think you're making an invalid assumption about needing to store the energy anywhere. If I put solar panels on the roof of my house, and they provide half my energy (say, the *daylight* half), then am I living in the dark at night? Can I not still get electricity at night if I have no way of storing what I generated during the day?

I think you're looking at this as an either-or situation, not as a this-AND-that situation.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, September 10, 2012 4:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Nope. Everyone who wants the benefits of modern technology is the cause."

That's just plain stupid. It's possible to have modern technology that's EFFICIENT, and SUSTAINABLE.


Here's a tidbit and the link where it came from:

http://www.laboratoryequipment.com/news/2012/08/common-metals-can-make
-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels?et_cid=2808538&et_rid=290390323&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.laboratoryequipment.com%2fnews%2f2012%2f08%2fcommon-metals-can-make-cheap-sustainable-solar-panels


With enough sunlight falling on home roofs to supply AT LEAST HALF of America’s electricity ... (emphasis mine)

We could reduce our total energy consumption by 50% and have the same standard of living as Europe. We could supply half of our electricity through solar power.



So where do we store this electricity at night or when it's cloudy?

If you find a storage solution, any estimates on the cost of building and installing this system nationwide?

Assuming we were able to do this, would other countries be willing to go along, instead of using coal plants that will be cheaper and easier to build for at least a couple of decades?

Kiki.

I've seen articles like this all my life, and I still don't have my flying car.




I think you're making an invalid assumption about needing to store the energy anywhere. If I put solar panels on the roof of my house, and they provide half my energy (say, the *daylight* half), then am I living in the dark at night? Can I not still get electricity at night if I have no way of storing what I generated during the day?

I think you're looking at this as an either-or situation, not as a this-AND-that situation.

Also, I've never encountered solar panels that won't work when it's cloudy. They may become less efficient, but there's still enough light to generate power. Heck, my calculator works in my living room when I've got nothing but a 60-watt lamp on...

We could - and *should* - be working on smart grids, using solar, wind, tides, geothermal, nuclear, coal, and gas; that way, whichever is cheaper and more abundant at any given time can take the lion's share of the generation duties. Wind and solar during the day, for example, and nuclear/coal/gas at night.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."



Well, shit. That was supposed to be an edit, not a reply with quote!


Ah, well...

As for flying cars, let's just say most Americans have plenty enough trouble navigating their vehicles through two dimensions while trying to text, read, talk, dance, eat, and put on makeup.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 6:34 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Geezer,


"So where do we store this electricity at night or when it's cloudy? "

Yanno, I'm getting really, really tired of explaining this to you. This is like the third or fourth time. Do you think it might stick this time? Or are you just bound and determined to be an ass?

First, NO ONE claimed that solar could meet 100% of demand, but that it could REDUCE our dependence on fossil fuel, and hence generation of global warming gasses. That in itself renders your objection moot.

And Kwicko provided one answer which is to use solar energy during the day when the sun is shining brightly, which is one of the times of peak demand (for AC). That's a well DUH! answer that I'm surprised you didn't think of.

But there is an additional answer, and that is that power demand isn't steady even now. Demand goes up and down. But power generation, ESPECIALLY NUCLEAR, is difficult to ramp up and down to meet demand. So grid operators have devised schemes to store electricity in other forms when they have extra, in order to draw on it when there is a shortfall. How they do that is by pumping water into a reservoir when they have spare electricity then generating hydro-power from that water when demand is high.

Even IF PV buildings generate excess electricity during the day, they can pump electricity back into the system to either meet other demand or to be stored by the grid.

So take your Aricpet and your happy pills, and STOP ASKING THIS QUESTION. If you really must grind on this topic, find a new question.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 8:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I also think it is a case of established, wealthy, powerful interests (oil companies, coal companies, automobile manufacturers, nuclear energy) using their money and influence to continue wringing subsidies from the government ... while complaining about subsidies to other technologies and oh btw squashing innovative technology.

That's about it as far as I'm concerned.

Part of the reason for climate-change denying is that people don't like change, period. Sometimes to the point where it has to be forced on them, and even then they fight change with tooth and nail...look at civil rights. I don't say "look at slavery and the civil war" because I know the civil war wasn't fought over slavery, but civil rights is a valid comparison. Also, people don't like giving up conveniences, that's a pretty natural human thing.

It's all kind of a moot point for me, since as far as I'm concerned we've passed tipping point--not just on climate change, which is actually only ONE of the things portending our destruction.

And, of course, one of the biggest questions is "would other countries be willing to go along"--many of which of course would not, as mentioned. Europe is ALREADY ahead of us on this score, and others are coming along.

As to storage of solar energy, they're working on it:
Quote:

Solar-power startup Ausra, based in Palo Alto, thinks it has the solution: solar-thermal-power plants that turn sunlight into steam and efficiently store heat for cloudy days.

"Fossil-fuel proponents often say that solar can't do the job, that solar can't run at night, solar can't run the economy," says David Mills, Ausra's founder and chairman. "That's true if you don't have storage." He says that solar-thermal plants are the solution because storing heat is much easier than storing electricity. Mills estimates that, thanks to that advantage, solar-thermal plants capable of storing 16 hours' worth of heat could provide more than 90 percent of current U.S. power demand at prices competitive with coal and natural gas. "There's almost no limit to how much you can put into the grid," he says.




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Monday, September 10, 2012 9:32 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I think the key is new energy sources/developing alternative energy sources that we've already thought of but aren't using fully yet.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 10, 2012 11:11 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I think you're making an invalid assumption about needing to store the energy anywhere. If I put solar panels on the roof of my house, and they provide half my energy (say, the *daylight* half), then am I living in the dark at night? Can I not still get electricity at night if I have no way of storing what I generated during the day?

I think you're looking at this as an either-or situation, not as a this-AND-that situation.



Problem is where to get that energy during the night, then.

Coal plants can't just be throttled up and down. They take several hours to start from cold, and don't idle real well. . Natural gas plants are easier to start and stop, but not sure there's enough natural gas to provide both power and heating and cooking. Hydropower is about at full capacity now at 16% of total, and that's running 24/7, so using it only at night would reduce total output used. Same problem with nuclear plants. Why not just build more nukes and generate the power without carbon, and still using the existing energy grid.

The other issue with Kiki's plan is that the technology she wants to rely on is pretty much at the lab experiment stage right now, and there's lots of ways for things to not work out. The process has to be scaled up to commercially viable size. Manufacturing costs have to be in the ballpark of other energy sources. Manufacturing has to be reasonably clean. Cost for the consumer has to also be reasonable, or folks won't buy. Ease of installation and use have to be pretty seamless or folks won't buy. The system has to be reasonably esthetically pleasing or folks won't buy. And there's many other things that could keep it from working.

I'm not saying that there aren't solutions to reducing carbon, but I believe there will be SOLUTIONS not one solution based on putting all our eggs in one basket with untried technology, and forcing everyone to adopt it, (And you'll have to force folks since a lot of them won't see the need or want to pay the cost without coercion).

I'm at least as concerned about plans that start, "Well, we just make everyone..." as I am about global warming.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 11:21 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And Kwicko provided one answer which is to use solar energy during the day when the sun is shining brightly, which is one of the times of peak demand (for AC). That's a well DUH! answer that I'm surprised you didn't think of.



See my answer to Mike, above.

Quote:

But there is an additional answer, and that is that power demand isn't steady even now. Demand goes up and down. But power generation, ESPECIALLY NUCLEAR, is difficult to ramp up and down to meet demand. So grid operators have devised schemes to store electricity in other forms when they have extra, in order to draw on it when there is a shortfall. How they do that is by pumping water into a reservoir when they have spare electricity then generating hydro-power from that water when demand is high.


Yep. that's done, but it requires specialized hydro generators that can also be used as pumps. There's only so many places you can do this, though, due to geography, available water, and environmental concerns. Once again, it's part of a solution, but it's not as easy as you seem to think.

And there's these other questions still.

If you find a storage solution, any estimates on the cost of building and installing this system nationwide?

Assuming we were able to do this, would other countries be willing to go along, instead of using coal plants that will be cheaper and easier to build for at least a couple of decades?



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Monday, September 10, 2012 2:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
I think you're making an invalid assumption about needing to store the energy anywhere. If I put solar panels on the roof of my house, and they provide half my energy (say, the *daylight* half), then am I living in the dark at night? Can I not still get electricity at night if I have no way of storing what I generated during the day?

I think you're looking at this as an either-or situation, not as a this-AND-that situation.



Problem is where to get that energy during the night, then.

Coal plants can't just be throttled up and down. They take several hours to start from cold, and don't idle real well. . Natural gas plants are easier to start and stop, but not sure there's enough natural gas to provide both power and heating and cooking. Hydropower is about at full capacity now at 16% of total, and that's running 24/7, so using it only at night would reduce total output used. Same problem with nuclear plants. Why not just build more nukes and generate the power without carbon, and still using the existing energy grid.



I'd guess you'd still have the other types of plants up and running during the day, not necessarily at idle, but not at full capacity either. I know we have rolling blackouts during peak usage times in the summer because every power source is at peak generation, and it's still not enough.

You're probably not going to get me on board with more nukes anytime soon, given their recent history and the fact that nobody has ever figured out what to do when it all goes to hell. For that matter, nobody's ever figured out what to do with the waste they generate even when things go great.

Quote:


The other issue with Kiki's plan is that the technology she wants to rely on is pretty much at the lab experiment stage right now, and there's lots of ways for things to not work out. The process has to be scaled up to commercially viable size.



Solar and wind power are at the lab experiment phase? That's going to come as quite a shock to places like West Texas and Southern California, among others.

Quote:

Manufacturing costs have to be in the ballpark of other energy sources.


If wind and solar were given subsidies on the scale that petroleum is, I believe they'd be quite cost competitive.

Quote:

Manufacturing has to be reasonably clean.


Cleaner than coal or petroleum, for example?

Quote:

Cost for the consumer has to also be reasonable, or folks won't buy. Ease of installation and use have to be pretty seamless or folks won't buy. The system has to be reasonably esthetically pleasing or folks won't buy. And there's many other things that could keep it from working.


All valid points. I'm reminded of early days of the internet, which wasn't exactly reasonable as far as cost, wasn't particularly easy to install or use, or particularly aesthetically pleasing to look at. Yet forward-thinkers still lined up to buy. As more come on board, all of these issues seem to just... disappear.

Quote:


I'm not saying that there aren't solutions to reducing carbon, but I believe there will be SOLUTIONS not one solution based on putting all our eggs in one basket with untried technology, and forcing everyone to adopt it, (And you'll have to force folks since a lot of them won't see the need or want to pay the cost without coercion).



On that we are in complete agreement. Or "agreeance" if you're a Fred Durst fan. I'm not a big believer in ONE GIANT SOLUTION to much of any problem (except automotive problems, where the Bigger Hammer™ theory is almost universally accepted); I prefer lots of tiny solutions, all contributing their part. Give me 100 things that each contribute 1% to the solution rather than one thing that addresses 100% of the problem; that way, when one of the solutions fails, you still have the problem 99% solved.

Quote:


I'm at least as concerned about plans that start, "Well, we just make everyone..." as I am about global warming.



Well, I'm glad I didn't start off that way, then.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, September 10, 2012 4:55 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Jeez Geezer, I can't believe you typed ALL THOSE WORDS and yet HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SALIENT to say.

"Hydropower is about at full capacity now at 16% of total, and that's running 24/7, so using it only at night would reduce total output used."

From WIKI

As of March 2012, pumped-storage hydroelectricity (PSH) is the largest-capacity form of grid energy storage available; the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) reports that PSH accounts for more than 99% of bulk storage capacity worldwide, around 127,000 MW.[1] PSH energy efficiency varies in practice between 70% to 75%.[1]

From Stanford

The pumped storage electricity generating capacity of the United States has stayed constant for the past several years at 21.5 gigawatts. [4]

The FACT is this is more than a curiosity fraught with uncertainty or a hypothetical. It is THE LARGEST method of electricity storage used in the world today.


"The other issue with Kiki's plan is that the technology she wants to rely on is pretty much at the lab experiment stage right now, and there's lots of ways for things to not work out. The process has to be scaled up to commercially viable size."

Just b/c the US and you are backwards doesn't mean the rest of the world is waiting for you to catch up.

In Germany

In May, a record of more than four billion kilowatt-hours of solar power was set, equivalent to roughly a tenth of the country's power supply.

Wind power is another major real-world contender

WIKI
Several countries have already achieved relatively high levels of penetration, such as 28% of stationary (grid) electricity production in Denmark (2011),[45] 19% in Portugal (2011),[46] 16% in Spain (2011),[47] 14% in Ireland (2010)[48] and 8% in Germany (2011).[49]

Germany is now producing 25% of its electricity from renewables

Germany has announced that it's managed to hit an ambitious target for power generation -- producing 25 percent of the country's energy from renewables, up from 21 percent in 2011.

"And you'll have to force folks since a lot of them won't see the need or want to pay the cost without coercion."

I think we should stop subsidizing nuclear with tax dollars. Let them find their own insurance and build their own spent-fuel 25,000 year storage, and charge accordingly. Nobody including the taxpayers should be 'forced' to pay for something that’s not commercially viable.


Geezer, now really. Maybe you think everyone is fooled by your FUD, but I assure you it's not true.


And for the sake of what little remains of your credibility, don't raise these issues again.

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Monday, September 10, 2012 5:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Don't forget the "solar tunnel" on part of the Paris-Amsterdam train line, which provides the power equivalent of that used by 1000 families for a year (3300MwH).

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/solar-tunnel-powers-part-of-p
arisamsterdam-train-line-2296276.html




Is it enough? No. Is it a start? Yup. And it's a damn sight more than we're doing here.

Don't judge the energy picture of the whole world by what you see and hear in the U.S. We're really not very advanced in that area. It's another one of those issues where righties like to stand up and should "WE'RE NUMBER ONE!", but we really aren't, just like healthcare outcomes.

On the road to the future, we're being left behind. Saying it's not happening doesn't make it not happen. Investment can make it not happen, though.

Once upon a time, we won the space race. We said we'd put a man on the Moon, and we did it, more than once. It wasn't cheap, but we did it because we decided as a nation that it was worth doing. Many people here - many CONSERVATIVES here - would agree that it was worth spending the money on, even though they'll grudgingly admit that it's not a proper function of government to do such frivolous things.

So we can prioritize energy independence (even though that's a bit of a myth in and of itself, since there is no "American" oil and "foreign" oil, there's just "oil" and systems of money and economics), and we can just decide as a nation that we want to advance our energy resources into the future, and we can invest in making that happen. There's nothing we can't afford if we just prioritize it and decide that's what we want to do.

But war with Iran is probably going to work out better for all of us, and won't cost us a thing, I'm sure.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, September 10, 2012 6:42 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


There’s enough wind potential to meet the world’s energy demand, at least in the abstract.

A new study published this week in Nature Climate Change finds that there’s enough wind potential both on the Earth’s surface and up in the atmosphere to power human civilization 100 times over. Right now, humans use about 18 terawatts of power worldwide. And, technically, the study found, we could extract about 400 terawatts of wind power from the Earth’s surface and 1,800 terawatts of power from the upper atmosphere. - www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/10/is-there-enough-
wind-energy-to-meet-the-worlds-needs
/

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Monday, September 10, 2012 10:10 PM

CATPIRATE


Bull Chips. Ahh remember the blizzard in December of 2010. Plus I like it warm. So we can move to Greenland or Antartica. North central asia is still pretty cold.

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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 1:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by two:
There’s enough wind potential to meet the world’s energy demand, at least in the abstract.

A new study published this week in Nature Climate Change finds that there’s enough wind potential both on the Earth’s surface and up in the atmosphere to power human civilization 100 times over. Right now, humans use about 18 terawatts of power worldwide. And, technically, the study found, we could extract about 400 terawatts of wind power from the Earth’s surface and 1,800 terawatts of power from the upper atmosphere. - www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/09/10/is-there-enough-
wind-energy-to-meet-the-worlds-needs
/





And there's enough solar energy falling on Earth every day, too.

Thing is, we don't *NEED* petroleum or coal for most of our energy needs. We use them because they're cheap and easy... for now. But we need to transition to something else BEFORE they're no longer cheap and easy. How many wars are we already fighting over the issue of cheap oil? How many more on the horizon?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


To digress slightly and note that climate change/global warming isn't the only, or even the most important, issuue, here is some information on the tipping points, from those we've ALREADY PASSED to those we are approaching:
Quote:

A new report by 22 international scientists published in Thursday’s edition of the journal Nature is stating we are nearing an age where we will have reached the “tipping point” on Earth that, once passed, will have “destructive consequences.”

Anthony Barnosky, professor of integrative biology at the University of California, Berkeley, and lead author for the study explained in a university press release that the research presents a combination of factors that lead to this tipping point. They include population growth, destruction of ecosystems and climate change as the factors.

“It really will be a new world, biologically, at that point,” Barnosky said in a statement. “The data suggests that there will be a reduction in biodiversity and severe impacts on much of what we depend on to sustain our quality of life, including, for example, fisheries, agriculture, forest products and clean water. This could happen within just a few generations.”

The report comes just before United Nations Rio+20 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro later this month.

Researchers from a variety of disciplins – biologists, ecologists, complex-systems theoreticians, geologists and paleontologists — contributed to the report called “Approaching a State Shift in Earth’s Biosphere.”

Berkley also notes co-author Elizabeth Hadly from Stanford University saying this “tipping point” is getting close in some parts of the world. It is hypothesized in the paper that once the 50 to 90 percent of the area has been changed, the effects will be irreversible:
Quote:

Currently, to support a population of 7 billion people, about 43 percent of Earth’s land surface has been converted to agricultural or urban use, with roads cutting through much of the remainder. The population is expected to rise to 9 billion by 2045; at that rate, current trends suggest that half Earth’s land surface will be disturbed by 2025. To Barnosky, this is disturbingly close to a global tipping point.

“Can it really happen? Looking into the past tells us unequivocally that, yes, it can really happen. It has happened. The last glacial/interglacial transition 11,700 years ago was an example of that,” he said, noting that animal diversity still has not recovered from extinctions during that time. “I think that if we want to avoid the most unpleasant surprises, we want to stay away from that 50 percent mark.”


•The rapid growth in the world’s human population – to 9 billion or more by 2050 and possibly 27 billion by the end of the century – is quickly consuming available resources.

•Fossil fuels are being burned at a rapidly increasing rate, increasing concentrations of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere by 35 percent since the industrial revolution began. At the same time, ocean acidity has risen by 5 percent in the past 20 years.

•Ocean productivity is being diminished by vast “dead zones” where no fish swim, while 40 percent of Earth’s land mass that was once “biodiverse” now contains far fewer species of crop plants and domestic animals.

•More animal species than ever are becoming extinct, and many plant and animal species are being forced by global warming to seek new ranges that could place them at risk of extinction, as well.

•Within the next 60 years, the average global temperature “will be higher than it has been since the human species evolved.” http://www.theblaze.com/stories/scientists-report-earth-reaching-tippi
ng-point-with-severe-impacts-on-quality-of-life/


I posted details about this a while ago, but nobody was interested. Instead of focusing on climate change, which admittedly impacts a number of these tipping points, maybe it would be worth discussing others of them which we COULD change before they reach tipping point if we wanted to. Just a suggestion.


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Tuesday, September 11, 2012 10:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Niki, another tipping point concerns meat, and our fixation on it as a staple in our diet. I heard another study mentioned on NPR that dealt with the amount of water that goes into the production of meat, and the fact that at current growth rates, there simply is not enough fresh water on Earth to supply the meat industries in order that everybody who's used to eating meat will have it available.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, September 12, 2012 7:55 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup, that's part of the "fresh water" thing. We are misusing water in SO many utterly stupid ways, as ignorant of that as of any of the other dangers...and I would bet, uncaring even if they were educated about it...that it blows my mind. Along with all the rest. California has taken SOME steps regarding water, but far too few and far too late...and we still have So. Ca. determined to "steal" as much of our water as humanly possible. Mankind developing in places we weren't meant to, the definition of So.Ca.

Then there's Las Vegas...!


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