The Self in Decline and Recovery by Oonjerah

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

The Self in Decline and Recovery

POSTED BY: OONJERAH
UPDATED: Thursday, October 18, 2012 16:27
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Sunday, October 14, 2012 6:33 PM

Books: Games People Play, Be Here Now

I'm qualified to write this essay.

Born Nov 1942.

1945 is when I recall starting to get emotionally stressed.
Certain family attitudes were destructive toward me. This
would continue as a permanent assignment; it's still in place.

I wanted desperately to be "the good guy." That would never be
allowed. My assignment was Scapegoat. So whether my actions
were good, bad or indifferent, I'd be getting blamed for some-
thing. My self-esteem was rock bottom.

I had severe depression. But I resisted "acting out" until about
the age of 22. My path gradually became self-destructive. Age 28
thru 30 (1973), a turning point for many, was pure hell. I didn't
die. I continued to strive futiley for "goodness," yet I declined.

Enter Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships
1964 bestselling book by psychiatrist Eric Berne. "Since its publication
it has sold more than five million copies. The book describes both
functional and dysfunctional social interactions."

It's Pop psychology, somewhat controversial, saved my life, restored
my sanity.

If you say "Games," I say "Transactional Analysis." Games People Play &
its companion, What do you Say After You Say, "Hello"? are a layman's
guide to Transactional Analysis = TA. It worked and TA groups began
to spring up around the country. I joined one.

I think that lasted for me 2 or 3 months. The group collapsed when
our brilliant, nurturing therapist died. As per her recommendation,
I moved on, eventually, to a 12-Step program. It was 1980 closest I
recall.
I do not know if TA is still taught/practiced anywhere. It may have
fallen into disrepute. 12-Stepping doesn't teach TA, but I continued
to study it on my own. I had a lot of work to do to clean up my act.

Later, Be Here Now, 1971, Baba Ram Dass, became my other Bible &
guide. I've since lost both books, need to order new ones. Be Here Now
is mostly Eastern philosophy.

Games that are toxic make us feel bad, are often a simple bait & switch.
Example:
A: How are you today? :)
B: Not bad, I guess.
A: Well, don't complain! :(

Literal honesty may be a bit rude sometimes. It's a damn site better
than the games. Many are aware of their games & prefer them to honesty.
That's a choice. Most of the people I meet are gamey but unaware of it.

The gift of recovery brought: Of my very destructive compulsions, one
went away "instantly;" others are backed off. I became able to live
with myself in relative comfort. Recovery is a long process, requires
dedication.

I probably could go on and on; I'm too lazy to write it all. But here's
a thing about me:
I had quite a few friends in the 12-Step program. You will if you have
a car & do taxi service.

One of my friends was very sick emotionally; I always believed she'd had
a terrible, abusive upbringing. We were talking on the phone, for it was
her wont to call and dump about her current crisis. I would be suggesting
solutions. Perhaps she became impatient with my nonsense, for she said,
"But Oonj, You wanted to change; I don't!

That was the beginning of the end for us; I began to back off, avoid her.
I cannot abide someone who chooses to stay seriously effed up when All
about them are choosing happiness.

I tell myself: accept, Accept, ACCEPT!

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Sunday, October 14, 2012 9:05 PM

HKCAVALIER

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 10:59 AM

OONJERAH

"Life begins at 40" was true for me.

I didn't like me. But I was stuck with me.
So I recreated me.

But . . . did I give up pointing the finger?
Still workin' on it.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 11:17 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Most of that didn't make sense to me, I prefer details to vagueries or else I don't know what's exactly going on and I find more confusion than understanding. But I'm glad you found things that were helpful for you in your life and I'm glad that you feel better in your skin.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 15, 2012 12:05 PM

OONJERAH

It's Self-Help, Riona.

People are born and they grow up.
Unlike tadpoles, a human baby can't survive on its own.
A grown-up has to raise it. Sometimes the raising doesn't
work quite right, & the baby grows up to be a flawed adult.

The flawed adult may look in the mirror and think, "I don't
like what I've become."

This happens with a lot of people. They don't have to be
stuck with it. Many people have been there before and have
been able to change into someone they did like.

Some people are rigid. They see the need for change, but
changes in self are very difficult for them. Lucky for us now,
there are a number of manuals about making changes, and
there are groups that gather to talk about and support the
process of change.

Still too vague?
I can give examples if you want.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 12:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I keep wanting to start a thread called 'manufacturer's refund'.

Here we are, the human race. No one unit comes out like the others. Some are wildly out of spec out of the box. Assembly is complicated and lengthy. No one provided instructions. Some units have to be constantly tinkered with for their entire lifespan. And the useable life is too short.

Who did this? Were can I get my refund?

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Monday, October 15, 2012 12:36 PM

OONJERAH

Many people had instructions about how assemble and tune the thing.
But the instructions were wrong and incomplete.
The customer service line is always busy or doesn't answer.

If I found out where to return the thing and get a refund, I'd be
thinking, "I wonder what they did with that Thing."

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Monday, October 15, 2012 12:50 PM

BYTEMITE

...I find it necessary to ask if this thread was directed at me, even though everyone thinks I think every thread is about me. In my defense, I'm asking first, and not assuming.

But I also think this story doesn't have a happy ending for some people. Expecting people to fix themselves is perhaps not something any of us can count on - although you are within your rights to not want to associate with them if they are too negative.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 1:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You'll have to ask OONJ for her view.

I was thinking about a person I know irl who was born a little slow, with adhd, bipolar ... she left hs early, never graduated, never got her ged. She's my age, working low-wage jobs and suffering emotionally from the stress visited on her by, afaik, the way she was born. She's a good person, a person I like, a person I sympathize with. She was the person I was thinking of when I started thinking about the inequities of life a while ago - how some people will find happiness, or peace, or even lifespan, so much more meager than others, through no fault of their own. Some people it seems were born to suffer.

Long story short, from my perspective, no, it's not about you. Just me commenting on something I've been thinking about.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 1:40 PM

OONJERAH

Self-creation, the psychology that drives us, has been a
fascinating topic to me for many years. Far more interesting
than politics, wars, riots, the news as usual. I would enjoy
talking about this with any good friend.

It generally doesn't belong in a public forum because it is
too personal and it tends to attract ridicule.

Knowing you motivated me to break that rule. So Yes, it is
directed at you. :)

"either try to fix yourself, or you're just a big faker"
You're putting words in my mouth again. You might want to
see to that.

I was much older than you when I finally found help. I was
not a faker.

My friend who didn't want to change herself, I'll call her K.
I don't think I ever asked her, "If you are in so much pain,
why don't you want to change?" or "Why are you attending a
group that's all about changes if you don't want them?" In that
respect, perhaps she was a "big faker," tho I never thought of
her that way.

She was hurting. It was Obvious. She was lonely; I was almost
her only friend. She needed to dump all the time. She was
crisis oriented like my earlier friend Eve. Eve was able to
gain satisfaction, affirmation from her dumps. I don't think
K ever did.

Self-hate is no way to live IMO. I'm asking you to consider the
possibility of making changes to improve your inner life.

If you say "No" and this thread continues, then it won't be about
you.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 1:50 PM

BYTEMITE

"either try to fix yourself, or you're just a big faker"

That was my knee jerk reaction reading your post, and I confess I misunderstood. I had to reread your initial post again, and then amended my previous post.

But, I won't change, as it would dilute my usefulness and because there's only one path for me. Also, every fix that seemed to make me better ended up to be only temporary, and made me worse in the long run. However, I am willing to accommodate you so that you don't have to see my flaws and so I'm not talking about them all the time. Or at least I'm willing to try.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 2:28 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Interesting, Oonj. It never occurred to me this was about Byte, I thought it was just self-rumination.

And here we go yet again--they really ARE going to call us sockpuppets--I'm absolutely fascinated with the human brain, psychology, all that stuff. Partly of course because of my own "path" and how it surprised me. It eventually led me to buddhism, and I like the buddhist attitude: We are on a path. We can choose to stand still on that path, we can choose to step backwards, or we can walk forward. It's not easy, and we never, ever, ever reach the end, but every step forward is its own reward and makes the path (life) better in some way, however small.

I was born in '48. Memories of my earliest years, until about age 9, are few and far between. I was an only child; had a half-brother ten years older who was around only a bit (mom sent him off to military academy as soon as she could after marrying dad), but who I loved more than either of my parents and whose death just tore me to shreds, whereas I only cried a little bit when dad died and mom's death was a real relief. So I wasn't afforded the Scapegoat role, I was the Mirror. Dad wasn't there--physically he was, but not otherwise. He hid. From mom I think. But for her I was the Mirror--anything and everything I did reflected on her and I wasn't supposed to be happy if she was sad or sad if she was happy.

The Scapegoat role, by the way, is one of the most common one that bipolars get written into in many family dynamics. It's either that role or the Confidante; the first because they see too much (and often say it) or the second because of their empathy. I wonder how you got that role? How many in the family, and what roles--if you don't mind; like I said, I'm fascinated by this stuff.

I wasn't until I was dx'd. That led to self-education and therapy, which led to recognition of my own family dynamic, and all of which led to my fascination. People are AMAZINGLY fascinating. The mind is. I often say if I HAD a "god" it would be the human brain...it's capable of SO much, we use so little, and so much of what it does is subconscious. I can never get enough of learning about people and how they think.

I had no self-esteem as a youngster either; I thought it was because I was very tall, very skinny and very shy...later I understood the "why" of it. The revelations of my own role, etc., came for me via EMDR. It was something very powerful for me and allowed me to see my role. What I had always strived for was love, which wasn't possible from dad--to removed from everyone and everything--or from mom--she wasn't capable of it because of her own demons. Bob (the half-brother) was the only one I felt loved me in the family, and that was because he just ACCEPTED me.

It's funny, I went from adoring mom and trying to get her love (I've found fancy cards I gave mom--she always wanted the biggest, gaudiest, gold-est--full of how much I loved her, how awful I was to her and how I didn't know how she could love me), to as a teenager turning on her and hating her without knowing why. After EMDR I knew why, and no longer hated her; spent a lot of time trying to understand her, where her demons came from, and from then on was just sad for her. She couldn't touch me anymore.

I was bipolar...yeah, the depression part was bad (I spent one entire summer on the couch reading novels, eating and sleeping, nothing else), but I enjoyed the hypomania and just thought I was "happy" (being bipolar II, I don't get "mania", just "less than" mania). Mom often called me Sarah Bernhardt (anyone old enough to remember?) and said I was over-dramatic. I didn't know until I was 48 that it was bipolarity. I always thought there was "something wrong" with me and there came the lack of self-esteem. After therapy, self-education and EMDR, I knew why.

Rambling now, but felt I should give background. I don't write like you do, I repeat, over-explain, over-describe...just how I am. Anyway, the other turning point for me after EMDR was buddhism. To me it's so beautifully simple...walk the path, stand still or go backwards. Accept. Learn to understand myself (as best I can) because it helps me understand others and so have less anger toward them; try to learn to accept myself becuse it helps me accept others. It works. And it's so simple.

Lastly, I, too, have pulled away from people who didn't change, but in my case I never had one say "I don't WANT to change". Mostly I see people who aren't AWARE that any change needs to happen; they either blame outwardly or are so trapped in their subconscious triggers, etc., that they don't MAKE the choice. Some I stayed with because they NEED to "dump"...but those only in small doses and eventually I lost touch with almost everyone but my husband (THAT's a whole 'nother story! With a happy ending, thankfully), Choey (who I knew for ten years on line at the first mental-health website I inhabited; she fell on hard times, I invited her to move here from Michigan and live with us four or five years ago), and Paula (my best friend from the age of 11 to today). Over time I am less and less around Choey; she's very judgmental and tho' she doesn't THINK it's so, she has an "my way is the only right way" mentality. Too much drama (this from a bipolar!--but she's bipolar too, and PTSD on top of it) and it's not my place to try and "fix" her. Jim and I get along fantastic these days, but other than my going into his room to lay on his bed and talk, and us getting out with the dogs every morning he's off, that's about it. We're very different people, VERY different, he has little interest in the things I do (actually, in much of anything). I drive to the Sierras to see Paula a couple of times a year and otherwise we write--handwritten letters, even.

So while I find humans fascinating, I'm happier only connecting with them on line, where I have many friends. Maybe I'm lazy; relationships take time and work. Maybe I'm chicken; seen enough, learned enough to know IRL relationships CAN hurt me. Maybe I'm just told; found the things that make life peaceful for me and cling to those.

Bottom line goes back to your post being aimed at Byte. I stopped long ago trying to give advice; I may try, gently, but once I learn it's futile I just try to be nice and do my best to accept, accept, ACCEPT. Ergo, I think trying to encourage Byte to change, or anyone else who's unhappy, is futile if the first gentle efforts are rebuffed. And I think since it WAS aimed at Byte, it would have been better in private.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 3:38 PM

OONJERAH

I would enjoy talking about this with any good friend. Big clue:
I'd like more threads about Human Nature -- prefer them Not to
become judgenmental, gossipy, snarky. But "you can't always get
what you waaant."

I can just as well say, I wanted to talk about this. Figured I was
the only one; it'd bomb. (So what? Most threads bomb.) Meeting
Byte pushed me over the edge to DO IT.

Byte said No to making changes to improve her inner life. So now
this thread is NOT about her.

I think there are several people in here for whom The Path is
their life.

You're right, your post is a bit too long for me: Short Attention
Span Theatre in here. It will take several posts to respond.

There is one thing I want to say about it now.
We can talk about the development of our character in childhood;
the flaws and insanities that were pounded into us. By parents,
siblings, teachers.

No => "I'm sick, 'cause They made me sick." <= No-no. Can't go there.

One hand clapping: illustrates a Koan, a concept beyond the logical,
Western mind. Is that from Buddhism?

"There is no blame." That's Buddhist, isn't it?

In early therapies, I habitually blamed my parents for my problems.
Several people told me this was uncool, a dead horse, and to just get
on with it. That injunction left me feeling invalidated, injured, guilty.

Years passed and my Rotten Older Sister gave me a good reason to drop
the blame. She was into Power Trips, One-Up, "Now I Got You, You-son-
ofa-Bitch!" attitudes. She didn't tell me true things very often; maybe
this one just slipped out ... or was a One-Up.

"You don't blame other people, because it gives them power over you,
and makes you weak." She said.

It took a couple of minutes to sink in, but I got it. Still working on it.

People who blame alla time are clueless.

I'm sure "There is no blame" has a cleaner meaning.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 6:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I've personally never found therapy or self help to be very helpful in my situation. But I know these things can be very helpful for others and so I encourage people to do what is helpful for them, everyone is different and our brains work differently. We're all capable of doing and understanding different things, one person's super solution is another person's disaster.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 15, 2012 7:42 PM

HKCAVALIER

Hey Oonj,

The western cultural mindset is obsessed with agency. Who did this? Who's responsible??? Nothing just happens. Someone made it happen. And I'm gonna find out!

But then we learned in the west that there's such a thing as a subconscious mind and most of what we do is determined by forces beyond our control, even beyond our understanding. Western culture has yet to integrate this new information into a coherent cosmology.

Western culture is also obsessed with punishment and reward. These twin concepts imply a third party in our lives; a parental agency watching and judging; a god dispensing justice. But the god of the west is an absentee landlord. A deadbeat dad. So, we take it upon ourselves to divvy up pain and pleasure; warm fuzzies and cold pricklies (T.A. for Tots FTW!).

Again, punishment and reward is meaningless without a solid grasp of agency, and agency is entirely a matter of perspective. It's all chickens and eggs. There is no veridical agency. Therefore, agency is an illusion. And from there we get to control is an illusion. Blame is an illusion.

Also: revenge, because we can never determine agency definitively, is always misplaced. All violence is revenge; and thus, all violence is misplaced.

Now, in terms of blaming your parents: that's a developmental issue. We start out fused with our mothers and during the terrible twos we differentiate. We hurl all manner aggression at mom in order to achieve escape velocity so we can stop orbiting her.

When we are abused, harmed, violated, when our parents cross lines with us, we become fused anew. This can happen as a result of any form of abuse when we internalize the hate out of which it was born. So, we either hate the one who brought us harm, or we excuse the one who brought us harm and hate ourselves. Again, somebody started it, damn it!!! And I'm gonna find out who! In order to escape this kind of fusion we have to demonize our abusers for a while, y'know, to achieve escape velocity. It's just part of the process. You would never have been able to differentiate from your parents properly, thoroughly, without demonizing them at first.

Later, you realized that they were just as blameless as you and you stopped blaming them. All part of the process.

The only way to escape this obsession with agency, this beast we will spend our lives hunting to no avail, is to look at ourselves not as agents, but as participants. Life comes charging right at us no matter what we do. What we can decide is how we're gonna meet it. Will we rise to the occasion? Or will we phone it in? Are we gonna bring our 'A' game or are we gonna run and hide? That's the choice.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, October 15, 2012 11:12 PM

OONJERAH

I'm getting some of what you said. Some of the concepts and
expressions of them are new to me ... not well understood.

This is going to take a while to digest.

BTW, some times, some places, have no warm fuzzies.

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Tuesday, October 16, 2012 7:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

As usual, Cav does it eloquently:

Quote:
But then we learned in the west that there's such a thing as a subconscious mind and most of what we do is determined by forces beyond our control, even beyond our understanding. Western culture has yet to integrate this new information into a coherent cosmology.

So, we either hate the one who brought us harm, or we excuse the one who brought us harm and hate ourselves.... In order to escape this kind of fusion we have to demonize our abusers for a while, y'know, to achieve escape velocity.... Later, you realized that they were just as blameless as you and you stopped blaming them. All part of the process.

That's me in a nutshell. I don't hate my mother (or father) anymore (I like the "escape velocity" thing!), but I DO recognize the psychology that went into my youthful fuckeduppedness, and I still battle some of it to this day, always will maybe. Think I've lost most of it.

After gently prodding mom over a long time, I read between the lines and realized that she'd been a sensitive, low-self-esteem little girl who idolized her mother (who she continually called an "angel" and "gorgeous"). Mom herself was a real beauty in her youth, so I "grokked" that there was some competition there on her mother's side, tho' she was completely unaware of it. She also described some memories of her step-father putting her down quite a bit, tho' again, she didn't make the connection. So she turned out someone who HAD to tell everyone around her if anyone ever paid her a compliment, who felt the need to control everyone around her (lest she lose the control she THOUGHT she had) and who had to have some kind of surrogate through which she could achieve what she felt she hadn't on her own. She was never able to get even see her "old stuff", much less fight to get free from it. I don't BLAME her for being who she was, but I recognize how it affected me. I suppose you could say I pity her, but it's all part of recognizing what makes us who we are and feeling sad for those lost souls who never get the chance to see it and fight to become their own person.

Not really clear on Koan, the Wiki definition confuses me. I don't think it's related to buddhism; in buddhism, there is no judging, no blame, only working to achieve understanding and acceptance. What I'm trying to say is that I don't go with "I'm sick, 'cause They made me sick", for me it's "this is the way(s) they made me how I was; now that I know that, it's my responsibility to lose those things and be myself". I'll never pretend they didn't have the effects on me that they did, but it's totally my responsibility to shed those effects.

Quote:
People who blame alla time are clueless

Yup; and they're not to blame for that, either. I consider myself extremely lucky that I had a couple of therapy experiences and literally stumbled onto one of the most well-known practitioners of EMDR, all of which LET me see where I got my "inner messages". Not everyone gets the chance; not everyone even realizes so much of themselves is run by those internal messages. They are stuck with externalizing and never growing, which is hugely sad. I wish everyone could be given the gift of self-awareness and self-knowledge; tho' it can hurt like hell it's the only way to become ourselves. And of course with the caveat that we never attain it fully. The subconscious is a wondrous thing, both wonderful and horrible, and endlessly fascinating.

One buddhist teacher said it perfectly, in my opinion: “There are no human enemies, only confused people needing help.”

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Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:49 AM

OONJERAH

(I am sneaking this in while y'all celebrate Obama's
Victory. I congratulate him.
Niki gave her family background. Here's mine.)

A family of seven, more or less.

Dad. He didn't dad much after Sis3N came along. He
loved to work, yet failed somewhat as a provider.
What he came to teach: "I'm no good. You're no good."
I dunno if Dad wanted any of us. But he did bond
with Sis1L and Sis4S.
I always considered him an Idiot Savant, since he
was brilliant with math, machinery, & any technology
that he took a shine to. He was socially awkward,
had difficulty reading & spelling.

Mom. She accepted the standard role of Wife & Mother,
stayed home "where she belonged." Perhaps she could
only validate herself thru others: Ancestors & Sons.
Yet hers was always the dominant voice; she made the
major decisions. A bit of a Queen Bee, a failed perfec-
tionist.
I never knew why she had 6 kids when she seemed to
hate us, the girls. If we'd liked her at all, we woulda
been boys.

Sis1L. The Great Competitor. Wannabe Tycoon. She
claimed her assigned role was to take care of her
younger siblings. She despised Sis2-Me & Sis3N, but
showed some fondness toward Sis4S and Bro-J.
With only a high school education (which included
an invitation to the McClatchy Valley Math Quiz),
in the work place, she quickly transformed herself
from a keypunch operator to a computer programmer.
Married 3X. Kids: A girl who could do no wrong, &
a boy who could do no right.

Sis2-Me. Scapegoat, as I said. But I was allowed to
be an artist; Mom was proud of my artistry; but she
was able to disconnect me from it. She would show my
pictures off to everyone, yet I was still a Bad Person.
I loved my Dad; he despised me; I didn't realize it
until well after 40. I never settled into the work
place and never married; I drifted, never finding
my Way.

BabyBro. I'll call him that 'cause he only lived two
months. His brief, tragic appearance had a profound
effect on the family. Mom only wanted sons.

There is a persistent rumor that there's an Indian
in Dad's woodpile. Later in life, I'd have the chance
to prove it or not.

Sis3N. CareTaker. She came home on Christmas day like
a present. When Mom pulled back the blanket, we thought,
must have yelled out, "O, Mom!! You done good! You got us
an Indian! Now we can really play Cowboys and Indians!"
Sis3N is also the Know-It-All. She displays contempt for
about 99% of the people on the planet. She claims she can
recall being an infant in the cradle and knowing how dumb
we all were. She loves cats and perhaps all animals.
While she was escaping from home, she worked as a wait-
tress. When she couldn't stand that anymore, she returned
home, became Mom's caretaker. But before that, she was
always someone's caretaker, whether they wanted it or not.
She had one great Love who eventually rejected her. She
never married.

Sis4S. Dunderhead. Perhaps to Mom, she was a Tosser. To
Dad, she was his Baby Girl; he protected her. She came
into direct competition with Sis3N, always delivering the
Sneaky Bop, then screaming bloody murder when Sis3N
retaliated. Always sweetly two-faced. She was never as
bright intellectually as the rest of us, and I guess we never
let her forget it.
To compensate(?), she got a geology degree from Stanford.
But she never developed scientific objectivity; still can
easily ignore facts that conflict with what she wants to
believe. I'm not sure how she decides what's true, but
suspect it has everything to do with peer approval, and is
all the better if it invalidates Sis2-Me or Sis3N.
She married well, no kids, just pets.

Bro-J. Hero, Center of the Universe, Adonis. Well, that was
his assigned role; but he never took it on; He Didn't Like
It. I think he just wanted to escape from his effing crazy
family. He did, for the most part, but it took time & effort.
He spent a couple of decades working thru his Oedipus complex.
He married late, a woman his own age; has one child, a girl.
From my distant perspective, they seem happy. I regard him
as a success.

Granny, Mom's mother, usually lived with us. She was very
religious. She taught me to play chess, for which I have 0
talent.

Sis4S has a brother-in-law, CK, who is a genealogy nut.
Did she ask him to find the Indian in the wood pile?
One day she shows up with two binders full of (no, not
women!)-- full of family history! Compiled by CK.
What could possibly be more boring?! But I accepted
them. That's another story. A fun story.

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Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:10 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Interesting.

I learnt a bit about transactional analysis a few years ago. I know it's considered a bit out of date, but I still think its a useful context to think about relationships

"Transactional Analysis (or TA as it is often called) is a model of people and relationships that was developed during the 1960s by Dr. Eric Berne. It is based on two notions, first that we have three parts or 'ego-states' to our 'personality, and secondly that these converse with one another in 'transactions' (hence the name). TA is a very common model used in therapy and there is a great deal written about it.
Parent, Adult and Child

We each have internal models of parents, children and also adults, and we play these roles with one another in our relationships. We even do it with ourselves, in our internal conversations.

Parent

There are two forms of Parent we can play.

The Nurturing Parent is caring and concerned and often may appear as a mother-figure (though men can play it too). They seek to keep the Child contented, offering a safe haven and unconditional love to calm the Child's troubles.

The Controlling (or Critical) Parent, on the other hand, tries to make the Child do as the parent wants them to do, perhaps transferring values or beliefs or helping the Child to understand and live in society. They may also have negative intent, using the Child as a whipping-boy or worse.
Adult

the Adult in us is the 'grown up' rational person who talks reasonably and assertively, neither trying to control nor reacting aggressively towards others. The Adult is comfortable with themself and is, for many of us, our 'ideal self'.

Child

There are three types of Child we can play.

The Natural Child is largely un-self-aware and is characterized by the non-speech noises they make (yahoo, whee, etc.). They like playing and are open and vulnerable.

The cutely-named Little Professor is the curious and exploring Child who is always trying out new stuff (often much to their Controlling Parent's annoyance). Together with the Natural Child they make up the Free Child.

The Adaptive Child reacts to the world around them, either changing themselves to fit in or rebelling against the forces they feel.

Communications (transactions)

When two people communicate, each exchange is a transaction. Many of our problems come from transactions which are unsuccessful.

Parents naturally speak to Children, as this is their role as a parent. They can talk with other Parents and Adults, although the subject still may be about the children.

The Nurturing Parent naturally talks to the Natural Child and the Controlling Parent to the Adaptive Child. In fact these parts of our personality are evoked by the opposite. Thus if I act as an Adaptive Child, I will most likely evoke the Controlling Parent in the other person.

We also play many games between these positions, and there are rituals from greetings to whole conversations (such as the weather) where we take different positions for different events. These are often 'pre-recorded' as scripts we just play out. They give us a sense of control and identity and reassure us that all is still well in the world. Other games can be negative and destructive and we play them more out of sense of habit and addiction than constructive pleasure.
Conflict

Complementary transactions occur when both people are at the same level (Parent talking to Parent, etc.). Here, both are often thinking in the same way and communication is easier. Problems usually occur in Crossed transactions, where each is talking to a different level.

The parent is either nurturing or controlling, and often speaks to the child, who is either adaptive or ‘natural’ in their response. When both people talk as a Parent to the other’s Child, their wires get crossed and conflict results.

The ideal line of communication is the mature and rational Adult-Adult relationship.
So what?

Being a Controlling Parent invites the other person into a Child state where they may conform with your demands. There is also a risk that they will be an Adaptive 'naughty child' and rebel. They may also take opposing Parent or Adult states.

Be a Nurturing Parent or talking at the same level as the other person acts to create trust.

Watch out for crossed wires. This is where conflict arises. When it happens, first go to the state that the other person is in to talk at the same level.

For rational conversation, move yourself and the other person to the Adult level."
http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/ta.htm

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Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oonj: Fascinating; you've obviously put your time in figuring out your family dynamic. But that everyone should; far too many just go through life unaware of how their families affected them, to their own detriment.

Aaand we have another similarity...this one no doubt affected us greatly.Our fathers:

Quote:
he was brilliant with math, machinery, & any technology that he took a shine to. He was socially awkward/

I think my dad loved me, in his own, absent way. He was an engineer (!), but I don't know much else about him (except that he was fascinated by some kind of philosophy--I can't remember what, but he took me to a speech about it as a kid; that's all I remember). But socially awkward? Hooo, boy, that's the MILDEST you could call it. Dad never spoke unless absolutely necessary and never socialized. Mom never forgave him, of course, because she was a social butterfly. My way of describing dad has always been that when I'd have friends over, if dad walked by they'd exclaim "You have a father? I never knew that!" He lived in front of the TV or closed in his room.

I wonder how much our somewhat similar father figures had to do with the other similarities we share? I feel like there must be something in there...

He also failed as a provder in later life. Worked for Pan Am, but after we got back from Afghanistan he was "retired" (sending him to Afghanistan was of course the first step to getting him out). He tried real estate, which meant he sat at a desk and fell asleep some, but made no money. He tried teaching at Lockheed...didn't last long. Mom ended up having to work; she never forgave him. Actually, for ANYTHING...for existing, I think.

Weird.

I used to wish I had brothers and sisters, but the older I got and the more I heard from friends who DID, the happier I was that I was an only child! That sounds like a very complex family dynamic...what did you learn from it, and how do you relate to the various sisters and your bro? Do you still relate to your family (I forget how old you are), and how did you break free? Really interesting...family dynamics are incredible and always very interesting to me.

Magons, thanx for the info on TA, I knew nothing about it. It's interesting; I see some of it, but I guess like anything else, I wouldn't hang my hat on ALL of it. I can see how it would be invaluable, however, in many ways. I certainly believe in the subconscious as an inner child and adult, but not as -- can't think of a word..."cemented"?..."delineated"?...closest I can come. But the basic concept is quite logical to me, especially as one of the forms of therapy I went through taught me about my inner child and eventually (despite at first thinking it was all bullshit) I "met" mine--two of them--and have been working at integrating both ever since. Dunno whether to call them children or my subconscious or some other term, but I finally accepted they were there and have tried to deal with them.

I can SURE see how TA would be immeasurably helpful in gaining awareness of one's family dynamic and how it has shaped one, as well as in gaining self-awareness. That's what it's all about, for me; gaining self-awareness, recognizing the subconscious things that make us think and behave as we do, and figuring out how to deal with it.

Don't suppose you (or anyone else) would like to tell us your story? I know the dangers of "exposing" oneself on the internet, so I don't expect anyone to unless they feel real comfortable and know nobody here can hurt them (unless they can be hurt by material about themselves being used against them here!). But I'd sure love to learn...

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Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:19 AM

OONJERAH

A quickie.

My folks were both the youngest in their birth families.
And, as it turned out, emotional immaturity was the result.
Many people didn't know, "I'm responsible for my own
happiness."

According to the fairy tales, when you fell in love and
got married, you would live happily ever after. Your
beloved would make you happy.

Hollywood supported the fairy tale principle. Childish
illusions were encouraged. Back in those days, anyway.

Most people didn't say, "It's my own job to make me happy,
if that's what I want."
- OR -
"Before and after we married, my spouse tried to tell me
who (he/she) was. I refused to listen or see; but told
them who to be for me! My Bad."

No! If One's spouse fails to make One happy, that's a
betrayal. So punish said spouse forever after.

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Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:41 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Ah yes, Niki. I don't know if you got my email, I do have issues with too much giving personal information away over the Internet. But I will say that I am the youngest of five, with four older brothers. The mother was a sweet soul who is now passed away and struggled with the life of a traditional woman in the 50's and 60's. I thank god for feminism every time I think about her life and what she had to put up with and the fact that she had so little choice and control over her life. My father was always very focused on his career. Everything else came second. I don't remember him being a very important part of my life growing up. We always had other relatives with us, or at least my parents did, all their early married life, uncles, grandparents.... I was very close to my Grandma. I still miss her even though she died 25 years ago!! I didn't find it easy growing up in a small house with all that testosterone. I lived a lot in my head.

TA is really useful when you are trying to work out why some relationships really don't work or feel difficult. For example, I have a co-worker who has to be everyone's parent. She acts the benevolent mother who gives advice and knows better than everyone else. She is only content when you act the submissive child with her, if you do not she becomes critical and controlling. I have to make sure that i don't become this child, and remain the assetive adult in dealing with her.

Also works with group dynamics. Our workplace has changed from being very egalitarian to being much more heirarchical. IN general staff meetings this has become very obvious, and I find myself automatically behaving like a silly child in response to the authotative treatment by the management team.

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Thursday, October 18, 2012 4:27 PM

OONJERAH

I'm OK; You're OK! by Thomas Harris, is
a TA book.

Synopsis ala Oonj:

There are 4 basic attitudes that I can bring
to my social life:

• I'm OK; You're OK.
• I'm OK; You're not OK.
• I'm not OK; You're OK.
• I'm not OK; You're not OK.

Which one do I choose?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I'm_OK,_You're_OK

"I'm OK, You're OK, by Thomas A Harris MD, is one of
the best selling self-help books ever published. It
is a practical guide to Transactional Analysis as a
method for solving problems in life. From its first
publication during 1967, the popularity of I'm OK,
You're OK gradually increased until, during 1972, its
name made the New York Times Best Seller list and
remained there for almost two years."
...
"The most common position is I'm Not OK, You're OK.
As children we see that adults are large, strong and
competent and that we are little, weak and often make
mistakes, so we conclude I'm Not OK, You're OK."

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