REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

My biggest nightmare as well

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, October 28, 2012 09:50
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Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

For those old enough to have covered the 2000 election, close presidential races trigger flashbacks of late-night interviews with lawyers at the Florida Division of Elections and close readings of the 12th Amendment. The neck-and-neck 2012 race for the White House is unharnessing a stableful of nightmares.

The bad news is that Ohio may face a counting problem, not a recounting problem. As USA Today reported Thursday, in an effort to make voting easier, Ohio sent absentee ballots to 1.43 million voters who requested them; 800,000 people who asked for those ballots have received them but not yet completed them. Any one of those 800,000 who decides to vote in person on Election Day instead will be given a provisional ballot to ensure they are not voting twice — once by absentee ballot and again at the polls. That means potentially tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of ballots will be provisional, which under Ohio state law won’t be counted until Nov. 17 at the earliest. Four years ago Ohio had 207,000 provisional ballots. It’s not hard to see the additional provisional ballots from the 800,000 would-be absentee voters adding up to enough votes to make a difference this time around.

Then there’s the possibility of a tie. This one is a favorite of legal scholars and historians, because it revivifies arcane 18th century constitutional debates and 19th century legal tweaks to the electoral process and turns them loose on the November vote. I go over the details of what happens in the event of a tie in this week’s magazine. The short version is that if both men get fewer than 270 Electoral College votes, including the case of a 269-269 tie, all hell breaks loose.

First there will be an attempt to find and sway electors who might be willing to change their votes, since any one elector’s vote could determine the winner. A small-d democrat, for example, might feel it was his duty to vote for the winner of the popular vote even if he had originally committed to the opponent. It’s also possible that a state legislature could try to replace one or several “controversial” electors: the Florida legislature briefly toyed with the idea in 2000, and states are explicitly allowed to do so until Dec. 11. If no candidate has the support of 270 electors when the college meets and casts votes Dec. 17, the decision goes to the newly elected House, which follows a 225-year-old formula for picking the next President. In a meeting on Jan. 6, each state gets one vote, determined by a vote of the members of its delegation, and a majority of states (26) is required. The House stays in session until a winner is picked.

As things stand, such a vote would likely go to Romney, though it’s pretty hard to game out, since the vote of a state with evenly divided delegations doesn’t count. (New Hampshire could have one D and one R in the new House, for example.) If it must go this way, there is one consolation: under the Constitution, the House would pick the President, but the Senate, which looks likely to stay Democratic, would select the Vice President. That would mean a Romney-Biden White House, which would be worth the price of admission.More at http://swampland.time.com/2012/10/26/election-nightmare-scenarios-what
-could-happen-on-nov-7/?hpt=hp_t2
]
It also states "In all of its counties, Ohio has paper records for all votes, including for machines that tally votes electronically. The paper records can be inspected by voters to ensure their votes have been accurately cast and can be audited after the fact to provide a backup to the electronic tally. That means any recount in Ohio should be free of the mess that engulfed Florida with its hard-to-read butterfly ballots in 2000." That's a big "whew!" which means we wouldn't go through the 2000 nightmare, but it's small consolation, given all the rest.

Potentially scary times ahead. Tho' from what I've been seeing, if Romney were to JUST lose Ohio, his road to the White House would be all but impossible. Not totally impossible, of course.

Encouragingly, Nate Silver at Fivethirtyeight.com gives Obama a 73.6% chance of winning, Romney a 26.4%, as of October 20th. I tend to pay more attention to 538.com than other things, as Silver works hard at the math, among other things.

He also gives Dems an 89.1% chance of keeping the Senate, and Repubs a 10.9% chance, which is reassuring. At least most likely the Repubs won't "run the table".

I put more stock in Fivethirtyeight for much the same reasons as this author:
Quote:

It's time to round out our coverage of election prediction sites with FiveThirtyEight.com. If you are looking at just one site to understand the current state of the race and electoral math, this, probably, is the one. Why is that? He's very accurate. His track record is good. In short: the quality of Silver's writing about electoral politics is at the top of the blogo-pyramid. There are other people who are, in my opinion, kind of in his space--but almost no others who are, frankly, in his class.

Silver's articles (and his co-blogger's) are deep-dives into numerical realities. He doesn't say things that the numbers don't say and the whole concept of "big data" is that "the math" is too hard for humans to do in their heads. There are counter-intuitive realities that are at play all around us and using moderately advanced statistical methods as the lens through which to view them brings reality into stark focus.

No one is always right--and it doesn't mean he's not partisan (Mr. Silver leans Democrat)--but many, many voices on both the left and the right respect his analysis and that ... that is almost if not entirely unheard of. The right's general willingness to give 538 the time of day is, in this hyper-partisan environment, not the gold standard. It's platinum ... or iridium ... or something.

I'll say that again: Nate Silver's credibility on the right is more convincing to me than anything he does with numbers.

Silver's analysis currently has very few holes. His model includes economic forecasts, state fundamentals, and polling. So far as I know, he is the only guy really doing this (PEC does something like it--but not in the same way).Excerpts...much more at http://politicalomnivore.blogspot.com/2012/08/digital-politics-fivethi
rtyeight.html


That pretty much covers my reasons for paying more attention to Fivethirtyeight than others. Your mileage may of course vary.

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Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:45 AM

PEACEKEEPER

Keeping order in every verse


So what happens in your system if there is no majority? Do the smaller parties have a casting vote.And what of the other parties who are not Dem or Rep. Do they have any representation in Parliament.can they win seats???

With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.

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Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ah, PK darlin', we don't have a Parliament...in so many ways, I've often wished we did. Minority parties don't have any power AT ALL here, only Dems and Repubs. A person can call themselves "Independent", but they pretty much have to caucus with one or the other of the parties in order to exercise any power whatsoever. The others are null and void, unless we ever get a third party that can get any noticeable votes...if that ever happened, I don't know what the outcome would be--does anyone else?

There are numerous ways (some described a vote) to keep there from being an actual tie in a Presidential race between the two parties. I'm not sure how those would function if there was a viable third party, none of them got a majority and there was a tie between any of the first two; perhaps others can make some guesses

While your system of a coalition government certainly has its problems, I happen to think it would be more representational if such a thing were possible here. I also envy your "vote of no confidence", tho' I think, given the differences in our political workings, that might actually be WORSE here--we might well be bouncing between the parties DAILY, the way things are right now!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, October 28, 2012 7:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Aw crap. I don't see a way around this nightmare unless people with provisional ballots start turning them in in large numbers.

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Sunday, October 28, 2012 7:15 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"... that might actually be WORSE here ..."

We could give Italy a run for the money!

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Sunday, October 28, 2012 7:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
So what happens in your system if there is no majority?




We get Bill Clinton anways, who had 43 and 49% of the votes.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, October 28, 2012 7:28 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


anways

I can't figure out what word this is.

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Sunday, October 28, 2012 9:50 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by peacekeeper:
So what happens in your system if there is no majority? Do the smaller parties have a casting vote.And what of the other parties who are not Dem or Rep. Do they have any representation in Parliament.can they win seats???

With the grace of age, commander, we learn to accept.



The President and the Vice President are the only positions in the US which are national elections. They are not elected by a popular vote but by an electoral college. Each state gets a certain number of electoral votes depending on population. Most states award all their votes to the winner of the popular vote in that state.

All the other elections are state or local elections, so a third party getting any % in the Presidential Election does not mean anything.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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