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Nooalf Discussion

POSTED BY: M52NICKERSON
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 10, 2017 03:45
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Thursday, November 1, 2012 4:23 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Okay JO753 I have read through the nooalf website now a couple times. You want to debate, lets go.

I would however appreciate if you would not use it here because I do have a hard time reading it. Which I will explain later.

You call this the start of a revolution against institutionalized stupidity, yet on your site I fail to see any type of evidence given for this. I know everyone likes to joke about how stupid people are but in reality the world is getting smarter.

http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/the-world-is-getting-smarter

Your profile claims that because of nooalf you can think about some things better. Really? In all my years of life I can't say that I had ever thought about how a word is spelled an idea was turning in my brain. I don't picture words in my head.

So what is the point of all this. I see no valid reason for it. Spelling being hard, or not phonetic is not a valid reason. English is not a phonetic language. Written English is not designed to communicate phonetics, but knowledge. This fact is very important because one of the first things that are hurt by a change to nooalf or any phonetic spelling system would be this passing of knowledge.

One of the best things someone who is going into a science field is to learn some Latin. Having even a basic knowledge of Latin roots can very effectively allow someone to understand the meaning of words they have never seen. Thing is many of these words are not pronounced as they are written. Biology is one such word. When one sees the word they can easily recognize the roots and understand it's meaning.

Even when the roots of words do not reveal it's meaning that word itself can have a very meaningful purpose. 1,2-Dibromoethane not only names a compound but also tells someone what the exact makeup of that chemical is. Without spelling rules you lose that. Some people mat spell it just as it is, but go over to the UK or else where in the world and listen to how they say it.

Plus standardized spelling also allows a person to quickly look up the mean of any word they do not know the meaning of. Without standard rules dictionaries would become unruly. Making it that much harder for someone to understand.

That leads me to the next point and sever weakness of trying to make English a phonetic language. Who phonetics are you going to use? A person from the Midwest pronounces words a lot different than a person from Scotland. The Welsh and the folks from Minnesota also a bit different. Than you have those around New Orleans. Any difficulty you have with understanding someone with a different dialect is just going to be amplified if they are spelling words how they pronounce them. Just take an American and a Brit and see how they pronounce "methane". However put that word on the side of a tank and everyone understands what it is.

So now we have just made it harder for people who speak the same language but have different dialects to communicate in the one way that is common to every English speaker.

That also means that if this cluster went into effect and children are taught this it would be near impossible to go back a read older works. Shakespeare can be hard know, it would be impossible for someone taught this. Yes, it could be converted, but again into what dialect?

Finally we have the fact that not all people find phonetics all that useful. People who are deaf from birth or a young age do not lean language though sound. For them reading language that does not have spelling standards would be near impossible. I myself are not deaf but have hearing loss and growing up a speech impediment. I struggled with language, still do. I have never been a good speller, but that have never held me back in any type of critical thinking. I also have a very hard time sounding words out. So when I read now, which I can do pretty fast I tend to look at words as a unit, as a complete symbol. That means like many the most important parts of the word for me is the beginning and the end. The stuff in the middle can the jumbled up and I still do fine. Hell, most of the time I don't even catch mistakes. So this page...

http://www.nooalf.com/LoJIK.html

Is honestly indecipherable for me.

So for all the problems there are in trying to make English a phonetic language just because it is hard to learn I would say that it is not worth it. I also stand by my assertion that this is really not about making anything better, but easier. Well in life the things that are hard are the most worth it.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 4:30 PM

BYTEMITE


Shakespeare wrote in a time when they didn't have standardized spelling.

It's actually a relatively recently thing, that was invented with the dictionary.

While it's convenient, I don't think a wide variety of spelling or bad spelling is a deal breaker in terms of the transfer of knowledge. Ultimately just having a set alphabet is already a big step towards simplicity compared to some other languages (Chinese, I'm looking at you).

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 4:34 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Shakespeare also invented a lot of words. Most of which he did to make the language of his plays sound prettier. It is one of he reasons Shakespeare is not easy reading.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 5:34 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Shakespeare also invented a lot of words. Most of which he did to make the language of his plays sound prettier. It is one of he reasons Shakespeare is not easy reading.


Ironically, I didn't have any problem reading Shakespeare, and was usually the one translating it. I also think a lot of people just find him pretentious in this day and age, and are opposed to trying to understand it.

Reminds me, we once went to The Taming of the Shrew in class and the man who played Petruchio did pages and pages of that dialogue and all the idiots in my ADVANCED ENGLISH CLASS could whinge about was that he was overweight... I told them when they could do what he just did then they could talk- but until then SHUT UP. I wish I could go back in time and say it where the guy could hear me. Couldn't have been easy doing Shakespeare for clueless teens.

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 8:37 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


M52, all your points are valid. As annoying and inconsitent as English spelling is, we are speaking and reading our linguistic history, with the mash of languages and cultures that have gone into creating it.

Phonetics of any particular word will vary greatly from place to place, as does language usage. Let it evolve freely, I say.

David Mitchell on Americanisms for some light relief



How do you pronounce?

scone
(rhymes with Tron)

clerk
(rhymes with dark)





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Thursday, November 1, 2012 9:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


1,2-Dibromoethane

Ah. Chemistry. Familiar territory. I felt my brain relaxing.

"Who phonetics are you going to use?"

Joke I heard a long time ago. An east-coaster was traveling and happened to be in Texas, in a restaurant for dinner. He asked the waitress what was the special, but was stumped with one time - balled, or, bald potatoes. After some back and forth, with him wondering were these potatoes in balls or was bald another way of indicating 'peeled' he asked the waitress to spell it out. And she said - you know - balled. b.o.i.l.e.d. ...

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Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:14 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Thanks for the support, Byte.

I hav found that objectorz often hav a poor awareness uv the history uv English and assume the spelling haz been the same forever.

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Okay JO753 I have read through the nooalf website now a couple times. You want to debate, lets go.


Congrats! However, I think you may hav gotten sidetracked sumwhere, considering sum your following comments. Therez a section called Krazy JOz Bad Lojik Skeet Shooting Club that dealz with the most common objectionz to reform.

Quote:
I would however appreciate if you would not use it here because I do have a hard time reading it.


The casual and inconsistent fonetic improvements I uze in forumz iznt Nooalf.

Az I stated in the other thred, its to wear out your inner spelling cop. Think uv it az exersizing an unuzed muscle.

Quote:
You call this the start of a revolution against institutionalized stupidity, yet on your site I fail to see any type of evidence given for this.


I dont hav the resourcez to do a proper study on the effect uv nonsense on human thinking abilityz. And seriously, how woud that be conducted?

However, I do hav my own experience and its not hard to understand the basic hypothesis. If you giv sumwun bad info frum the start on a subject, intentionally bilding a bad lojik structure in their hed, without any correctiv input, how can they help being confuzed wen finally confrunted with reality? Our mindz are not a bunch uv completely isolated programz. Everything influensez everything else to sum degree.

Kidz get the idea uv authority based thinking hammered into their hedz even befor starting skool. Its not just the culture, its part uv the social nature uv our speciez. Conform or be cast out.

Quote:
I know everyone likes to joke about how stupid people are but in reality the world is getting smarter.

http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/the-world-is-getting-smarter



I think sum people are getting smarter and otherz dummer; that there woud be a divergence soon, if other factorz werent developing to stop it. (genetic engineering & direct computer/brain interaction)

Therez a debate going on now about our intelligence relative to our ancestorz. Cave men had bigger brainz, but wether that meanz they were smarter iz in question.

[url] http://news.discovery.com/human/shrinking-brains-intelligence-110207.h
tml]

Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? If you believe in evolution, you hav to take it seriously!

Quote:
Your profile claims that because of nooalf you can think about some things better. Really?


My brother consistently scored higher on IQ tests than I did, yet I am alwayz the wun explaning thingz and finding the flawed lojik.

Granted, its possible that its transpozing cauze & effect and personal anecdotes are weak evidence, but I believe comparison between nativ English speakerz and thoze with languagez with better orthografyz will support the notion.

Quote:
So what is the point of all this. I see no valid reason for it. Spelling being hard, or not phonetic is not a valid reason.


You claimed to hav read the site a couple timez. Much uv it iz about the many advantajiz for change.

Quote:
Written English is not designed to communicate phonetics, but knowledge. This fact is very important because one of the first things that are hurt by a change to nooalf or any phonetic spelling system would be this passing of knowledge.


1. Written English wuz not 'designed' at all.
2. Wut makes you think it cant do both? Your premise impliez that spoken English cannot tranzmit knowledge.
3. There iz no majik within traditional spelling that communicates info better than a fonetic system.

Quote:
One of the best things someone who is going into a science field is to learn some Latin.


Latin iz a fonetic spelling system.

Quote:
Having even a basic knowledge of Latin roots can very effectively allow someone to understand the meaning of words they have never seen.


Baloney. This notion haz been debunked many timez going back to Benjamin Franklinz day. And citing latin based terminolojy only shoots another hole in the idea!

Etymology iz fascinating, but you cant rely on it to correctly divine the meaning uv general vocabulary wordz. And only lazy minded people dont look new wordz up. They are the wunz who end up misusing wordz and diluting the meaning wen their misuse bekumz popular.

Quote:
Some people mat spell it just as it is, but go over to the UK or else where in the world and listen to how they say it.


The basic concept uv standardizing the letter to sound correspondence fixez that problem.

Quote:
standardized spelling also allows a person to quickly look up the mean of any word they do not know the meaning of.


A common misperception about Nooalf iz that there cant be a standard spelling. And how often hav you tried to look up a word and bekuz the spelling didnt match the pronunciation, you coudnt find it? It haz happened to me quite a few timez. Even more often, you hav to get the spelling rite, so just keep taking gessez, spending way more time than you woud if there wuz a real system.

Quote:
That leads me to the next point and sever weakness of trying to make English a phonetic language. Who phonetics are you going to use?


Whoz dialect do the lexicograferz go by now wen they write dictionary pronuciationz? They write them for wutever region the dictionary will be sold in.

Besidez, American English iz so widespred that nobody who speaks any dialect uv English cant understand it.

Quote:
That also means that if this cluster went into effect and children are taught this it would be near impossible to go back a read older works.


Thingz can be tranzlated very eazily theze dayz by software. Nooalf iz a very simple 1 to 1 correspondence tranzlation. 100% accurate and way simpler than tranzlating from other languagez.

Quote:
Finally we have the fact that not all people find phonetics all that useful. People who are deaf from birth or a young age do not lean language though sound. For them reading language that does not have spelling standards would be near impossible.


Again, Nooalf duznt preclude a standard.

Even tho def people dont gain from the fonetic connection, they will appreciate the efficiency. Nooalf text iz about 15% shorter on average.

Quote:
I have never been a good speller, but that have never held me back in any type of critical thinking.


How coud you know without comparison?

Quote:
I also have a very hard time sounding words out.


I assume you mean compared to other people.

Did you learn to read using the Whole Word method?

Sometime around the 80z there wuz this literacy education program that did away with fonetics altogether. It wuz a dizaster. Many uv the victimz are completely incapable uv reading unfamiliar wordz! I've met a few uv theze people, and they cant read Nooalf at all.

Quote:
So this page...

http://www.nooalf.com/LoJIK.html

Is honestly indecipherable for me.


Sorry! Most people can muddle their way thru it, gaining speed az they go. It helps if you install the font.

Quote:
I also stand by my assertion that this is really not about making anything better, but easier. Well in life the things that are hard are the most worth it.


You are claiming that its too hard to change to Nooalf. Converting to Nooalf woud be hard for people who are used to regular spelling, so it must be worth it!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, November 2, 2012 2:15 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Congrats! However, I think you may hav gotten sidetracked sumwhere, considering sum your following comments. Therez a section called Krazy JOz Bad Lojik Skeet Shooting Club that dealz with the most common objectionz to reform.


Yes I looked at it. It does not address anything I brought up here.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
The casual and inconsistent fonetic improvements I uze in forumz iznt Nooalf.

Az I stated in the other thred, its to wear out your inner spelling cop. Think uv it az exersizing an unuzed muscle.


So basically the same muscle is use when reading lazily written fucked up Facebook posts...got it.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I dont hav the resourcez to do a proper study on the effect uv nonsense on human thinking abilityz. And seriously, how woud that be conducted?

However, I do hav my own experience and its not hard to understand the basic hypothesis. If you giv sumwun bad info frum the start on a subject, intentionally bilding a bad lojik structure in their hed, without any correctiv input, how can they help being confuzed wen finally confrunted with reality? Our mindz are not a bunch uv completely isolated programz. Everything influensez everything else to sum degree.


Spelling is not bad information, simply a standard.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Kidz get the idea uv authority based thinking hammered into their hedz even befor starting skool. Its not just the culture, its part uv the social nature uv our speciez. Conform or be cast out.


A certain level of conformity is need for society.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I think sum people are getting smarter and otherz dummer; that there woud be a divergence soon, if other factorz werent developing to stop it. (genetic engineering & direct computer/brain interaction)

Therez a debate going on now about our intelligence relative to our ancestorz. Cave men had bigger brainz, but wether that meanz they were smarter iz in question.

[url] http://news.discovery.com/human/shrinking-brains-intelligence-110207.h
tml]

You think? If you are going to just present personal opinions this is going to get old very quickly.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? If you believe in evolution, you hav to take it seriously!


Yes, but I don't take it as a serious look at the future. Hey did you hear we put a badass rover on Mars...with a hovering crane?

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
My brother consistently scored higher on IQ tests than I did, yet I am alwayz the wun explaning thingz and finding the flawed lojik.

Granted, its possible that its transpozing cauze & effect and personal anecdotes are weak evidence, but I believe comparison between nativ English speakerz and thoze with languagez with better orthografyz will support the notion.


Yup, weak evidence. Well really no evidence. Now don't just think find something to support your notion.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
You claimed to hav read the site a couple timez. Much uv it iz about the many advantajiz for change.


We are debating here, and again I saw nothing on the site that addresses what I have brought up.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
1. Written English wuz not 'designed' at all.
2. Wut makes you think it cant do both? Your premise impliez that spoken English cannot tranzmit knowledge.
3. There iz no majik within traditional spelling that communicates info better than a fonetic system.


1. Okay, I never stated that it was designed.
2. No, I made a statement regarding written English. I imply nothing about spoken English.
3. Well other than what I laid out, just saying no is not an argument.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Latin iz a fonetic spelling system.

Okay...and?

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Baloney. This notion haz been debunked many timez going back to Benjamin Franklinz day. And citing latin based terminolojy only shoots another hole in the idea!


Really, debunked? Citation needed.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Etymology iz fascinating, but you cant rely on it to correctly divine the meaning uv general vocabulary wordz. And only lazy minded people dont look new wordz up. They are the wunz who end up misusing wordz and diluting the meaning wen their misuse bekumz popular.


I did not suggest someone use it alone. Oh, I think it is lazy for people not to learn how to spell new words properly.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
The basic concept uv standardizing the letter to sound correspondence fixez that problem.


How so?

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
A common misperception about Nooalf iz that there cant be a standard spelling. And how often hav you tried to look up a word and bekuz the spelling didnt match the pronunciation, you coudnt find it? It haz happened to me quite a few timez. Even more often, you hav to get the spelling rite, so just keep taking gessez, spending way more time than you woud if there wuz a real system.


So wait you want to change one standardized system for another? Again what dialect are you going to use for the standard? The hand wave you gave to this issue does not cut the mustard.

I did have problems looking up words because of spelling, until the internet. Now typing even the most horribly misspelled word into Google will most likely get you what you need.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Whoz dialect do the lexicograferz go by now wen they write dictionary pronuciationz? They write them for wutever region the dictionary will be sold in.


That fine for the pronunciations, but we are talking about the actual spelling.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Besidez, American English iz so widespred that nobody who speaks any dialect uv English cant understand it.


That does not mean that those people are going to spell words the same phonetically. If it becomes standardized they will still have trouble because many words will still not be spelled the way they pronounce it.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Thingz can be tranzlated very eazily theze dayz by software. Nooalf iz a very simple 1 to 1 correspondence tranzlation. 100% accurate and way simpler than tranzlating from other languagez.


So you have that software and have tested it to find that it is 100% accurate?

On the same token, spelling and grammar can be checked very easily as well.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Again, Nooalf duznt preclude a standard.

Which agains mean we are switching one standard for another. Many will find it easier, many will find it harder, what is the overall benifit again?

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Even tho def people dont gain from the fonetic connection, they will appreciate the efficiency. Nooalf text iz about 15% shorter on average.


Shorter does not mean more efficient.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
How coud you know without comparison?

I've been able to reach many of my lifes goals, the ones I have fallen short on have nothing to do with spelling.


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I assume you mean compared to other people.

Did you learn to read using the Whole Word method?

Sometime around the 80z there wuz this literacy education program that did away with fonetics altogether. It wuz a dizaster. Many uv the victimz are completely incapable uv reading unfamiliar wordz! I've met a few uv theze people, and they cant read Nooalf at all.


I did not learn that way specifically, but how I picked it up as I learned to read faster. So when you type “uv” instead of “of” is slows me down quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Sorry! Most people can muddle their way thru it, gaining speed az they go. It helps if you install the font.


Don't be sorry, just be willing to acknowledge that it will not work for everyone.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
You are claiming that its too hard to change to Nooalf. Converting to Nooalf woud be hard for people who are used to regular spelling, so it must be worth it!


Where did I say it would be to hard? I didn't. I purposely avoided making that argument. Please don't strawman me.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Friday, November 2, 2012 3:20 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Frum the Crystal Ball topic:

About the 'choose to not read bad spelling' comments:

Suppoze you had no choice. Suppoze it wuz 10x worse than the problem you hav with my nonstandard spelling.

Thats the reality for dyslexics and otherz who hav sum difference in perception or visual info processing. They dont even get a fair start in kindergarten and fall behind every year after untill they finally adapt to our goofed up excuse for an orthografy. Often they fail, ending up in a lifetime uv menial jobz no matter wut their real potential wuz. And you may know that a hi percentaj uv creativ geniusez are dyslexic.

And its not that this nonsystem we hav iz helping society in general. Its an unneccessarry burden on everybody from the minit they start to learn it till the last thing they rite wether they realize it or not.

About teachers: You uv all people shoud know wut a waste this iz. In countryz with sensibly spelled languagez, such az Italy, Korea and Bosnia, kidz learn to read and rite in a few months IF they dont alredy know wen they get to skool! Not 3 yearz. Not a 17% failure rate. Therez no multibillion dollar market for literacy training products, tutorz and skoolz. Dyslexics usually never even find out that they have the condition!

The bottom line iz that lojik works better than kaos. We dont need to keep foisting this mess on generation after generation to prove that. Thoze who are alredy literate dont feel a need for improvement, so they dont need to change. But they can at least give the next generation the choice.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, November 2, 2012 3:54 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


You find forms of dyslexia in people who speak languages with shallow orthographies.

You also make the claim that are current system is not helping, but yet have no evidence your system would make it any better. For there to be any type of revolution or change in the spelling system in English there is going to have to be a large amount of people calling for it. We don't have that.

Even if we do in the future it is not going to be a system that introduces new symbols and new capitalization rules.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
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Friday, November 2, 2012 5:24 PM

HKCAVALIER


Part of the information our written language communicates is its own complex history. Part of the information we get from the many contradictory spellings in English are clues to the many other languages we've borrowed our words from. The history of our laguange from before it was even English is embedded in our words. Destroying all that with radically simplified spelling would make our laguage poorer, less meaningful. Less connected to our history as English speakers. More convenient, sure, easier in some ways, perhaps less politically embarrassing, but to say nothing worth while would be lost would be churlish.

I think of the inconsistancies of our written language not as mere chaos but as pieces of a complex, fascinating puzzle. They're like our laguage's scars; the marks of experience on the body of our language that makes it unique. We're all tempted at one time or another by the idea of somehow erasing our scars, but it's a bad, bad idea. Wisdom and age know better.

I love that language evolves. But the best part of that evolution is that it's never perfect.

Which is not to say that I, in any way, object to any individual spelling as he or she sees fit--that's all part of personal expression and that's pretty sacred to me. But if somebody wants to come along and remove all the unsightly wrickles and blemishes from MY language, I will reach way back into my pre-English history and tell him to go fuck himself!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, November 2, 2012 5:32 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Yes I looked at it. It does not address anything I brought up here.


Not word for word, but your general ideas are adressed either there or elswhere on the site.

This debate will go on indefinitely if you dont admit points based on the concepts.

Quote:
Spelling is not bad information, simply a standard.


Think uv spelling az the material the ritten language iz made uv.

Woud you spend 10,000,000$ to bild a house out uv the wreckage uv other housez, all the bits uv dry wall, vinyl siding, rotting wood etc., or spend 500,000$ to make it out uv new stainless steel?

The point iz that a haphazard standard only works at all due to the great effort everybody makes to learn and maintain it. A standard based on lojik and efficiency works for everybody insted uv everybody working for it.


Quote:
A certain level of conformity is need for society.


True. But wut iz being taught failz to conform to lojik, thus teaching kidz that lojik iz not important.

Quote:
Yes, but I don't take it (Idiocracy) as a serious look at the future.


You shoud if you believe in evolution. The danjer iz real.


Quote:
Hey did you hear we put a badass rover on Mars...with a hovering crane?


Who iz 'we'? Its not the case that you can take anybody off the street and they will be able to dezine a marz rover if you pay them enuf. You cant even select only Ph.D engineerz and expect a successful dezine. Talent counts for more than just playing ball.

Quote:
1. Okay, I never stated that it was designed.


From your OP:
Quote:
Written English is not designed to communicate phonetics, but knowledge.


Quote:
2. No, I made a statement regarding written English. I imply nothing about spoken English.


This iz an example uv not going by ideaz. The idea that standardization itself iz the essential concept for correct transfer uv information and that firmly linking that standard to the spoken language will degrade this iz adressed here: [url] http://www.nooalf.com/DEBUNK2.html] in the 4th PULL!

Quote:
Really, debunked? Citation needed.(using root word etymology to figure out wut an unfamiliar word meanz)


Also adressed on that Debunk paje, but you are challenging my claim that it wuz debunked centuryz ago.

Sum thingz dont lend themselvez to Googling. I tried, but it kept bring up the etymology uuv the wordz I included with 'etymology'.

So, just consider a few reazonable interpretationz uv common wordz from the perspective uv sumwun who duznt know ancient Greek, Latin, German and a few dozen other languajez:

Microscope: A pocket telescope.

Telephone: A phone you can use at a distance. like them newfangled speaker fonez that understand commandz.

Shampoo: Fake shit.

Internet: A net within a net to seperate smaller fish.

Inflammable: Fire proof.




Quote:
Oh, I think it is lazy for people not to learn how to spell new words properly.


Dont you think its lazy to not make the effort to organize things?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
The basic concept uv standardizing the letter to sound correspondence fixez that problem. (dialects proliferating and diverjing)


How so?


Also addressed in the Debunks. Wen everything you read iz ritten in a standard fonetic system, you can see and examine the difference from how you say it.

Nooalf can spell dialects and accents AND hav a standard.

Quote:
That fine for the pronunciations, but we are talking about the actual spelling.


Thus the basic concept.

Quote:
So you have that software and have tested it to find that it is 100% accurate?(Nooalf to traditional tranzlation software)


Several uv my colleguez hav made tranzlatorz for their reform systemz. I havent yet.

Herez Tom Zurinkasez Truespel tranzlator: [url] http://www.truespel.com/en/]

Hiz system iz rediculously inefficient, but he put alot uv work into development and promotion. If the rest uv the world wakes up and seez that there iz a big problem, he coud win just for being better prepared than I am!

Quote:
Which agains mean we are switching one standard for another. Many will find it easier, many will find it harder, what is the overall benifit again?


Detailed in the Nooalf website, wich you sed you red several timez.

If you go into sumthing with a bad attitude, you inocculate yourself frum understanding it.

Quote:
Shorter does not mean more efficient.


Yes. It duz. (HEY! Wishy! I see wut youre thinking over there!)

Quote:
I've been able to reach many of my lifes goals, the ones I have fallen short on have nothing to do with spelling.


The you in an alternate universe that haz Nooalf insted uv Ye Olde Spellingue iz prezident uv the United States.


Quote:
when you type “uv” instead of “of” is slows me down quite a bit.


How olde were you wen you decided you cant learn anything new? Its a nearly universal affliction, so dont think I'm being insulting. I often think myself 'if I started studying electronics/programming/fotonics/genetics/etc. wen I wuz 30, I coud be making all sorts uv fantastic stuff by now'.

Learning Nooalf for anybody who iz alredy literate iz maybe a week uv casual study and practice.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, November 2, 2012 5:48 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Part of the information our written language communicates is its own complex history.....But if somebody wants to come along and remove all the unsightly wrickles and blemishes from MY language, I will reach way back into my pre-English history and tell him to go fuck himself!


sore. i hav xu lengx but not xu fleksubilite.

You obviously arent very familiar with that history. 2 books I recommend to everybody, especially people making the historical record etymology case, are [url] http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&a
mp;field-keywords=the+stroy+of+english] and [url] http://www.amazon.com/Art-Spelling-Madness-Method/dp/0393322084/ref=sr
_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1351914065&sr=1-1&keywords=the+art+of+spelling].

The spelling wuz the rezult uv alot more kaos than most people realize.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Friday, November 2, 2012 6:00 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
You obviously arent very familiar with that history.
Why be an asshole? What did I say that wasn't true?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, November 2, 2012 10:28 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


I wuznt being an asshole. Just assessing your level uv knowledge on the subject. And pleez dont take that az an insult, kuz the subject seemz boring to most people, at least befor they start getting into it.

Your inaccurate statements:

Quote:
The history of our laguange from before it was even English is embedded in our words.


Wordz werent lifted whole and left intact from other languages. They were taken az needed by random individualz and spelled however by everybody who adopted them for centuryz. Scribez tranzlated ancient classics, spelling by their own preference or momentary wim. Typesetterz who didnt speak English added letterz just to fill in rowz. Later, scholarz attempted to correct spellingz by gessing the source language for wordz and roots, very often mistaking Greek or Latin or olde English etc. New wordz were created by ordinary people with no reference at all to the past.

There iz no reliable embedding. And even if there wuz, the notion that any practical advantage coud be gained thats worth 300 billion dollars per year to prezerve iz ludicrous.

Quote:
Destroying all that with radically simplified spelling would make our laguage poorer, less meaningful. Less connected to our history as English speakers.


Wut destroying? Anybody who really carez to know the history uv the wordz can go to the library and fill their brainz to overflowing. They will learn the best available info frum the most respected academicianz. Far better than taking haf baked gessez based on their own limited knowledge and the peculiar spelling uv any word. "Hmm. The silent L probably indicates a French origin. If I'm correct, I know exactly jack squat more about this word that I've been using since I wuz 7."

So a few centuryz frum now, long after Nooalf haz supplanted the Olde Spelling, elite nerdz can earn the privilij uv entering the holy aisles uv an actual book library, armed with their Oxford Encyclopedia app and track down the orijinz uv KoF, eJYQKAsN, KWiR, etc. without 10 billion people having to learn and then rite cough, education, choir, etc. collectively trillionz uv timez per year. How exciting it will be for the nerdz!

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 4:16 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


First off I'm debating you, not your best of the 80's style website. I know you are probable desperate to drive traffic to to it but I'm not helping.

You argue that teaching children standard spelling is teaching them that logic does not matter. This could only be true if there is an expectation that words are spelled phonetically. There is no rule for this, nor does there have to be. In saying so you still hand wave away different dialects. Which you claim on your site is because written language is not phonetic. Pretty sure this shows you seem to not understand history.

It really comes down to the fact that you have all these claims, but not one shred of empirical evidence to support them. Even your debunked page is nothing but your opinions. You claim that it has been debunked years ago that the roots of a word can't help someone derive its meaning, yet you give examples of doing just that.

Through this you make a lot of promises, more so than the last use car sales man I talked to. You say texts can be translated to nooalf with 100% accuracy yet you don't have a translating software that can do that. You say nooalf can be standard and be in different dialects. How the fuck would you do that?

My favorite part is claiming that if the rest of the world would wake up and see the problem your friend would win with his system because he is better prepared. Congratulations, you are following in the long history of snake oil salesmen. You invent the cure and than try and convince people they have the disease.

Well no one is buying.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 6:53 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Congratulations, you are following in the long history of snake oil salesmen.

Bingo. This schmoe is trying hard to make a sale...

Jo - do you go about posting in your newspeak at all the chat sites you can find, trying to generate traffic for your page and win over converts? Gotta say, I'm just not impressed.

Especially ironic is your reference to Idiocracy. Your odd invention and your dismissal of all nuances of dialect, communication, history, and meaning in written language are right out of that `verse. You want to destroy the richness of written English for everyone because of a disability that a small fraction of people suffer from, though you present no evidence (evidence - not opinion) that your "creative" spelling actually helps. That is straight up Idiocracy.

If you're serious, how about carrying out a study as to your language's efficacy, then submitting the results to a peer-reviewed journal? Do that, rather than waving your hands and repeating your (somewhat cluttered and hard to read) opinions, and maybe you'll get more positive responses.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:40 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Wordz werent lifted whole and left intact from other languages.

I never said they were.

Quote:
They were taken az needed by random individualz and spelled however by everybody who adopted them for centuryz. Scribez tranzlated ancient classics, spelling by their own preference or momentary wim. Typesetterz who didnt speak English added letterz just to fill in rowz. Later, scholarz attempted to correct spellingz by gessing the source language for wordz and roots, very often mistaking Greek or Latin or olde English etc. New wordz were created by ordinary people with no reference at all to the past.

I'm aware of this information. I've read some of the same books you have. You seem to think that these factors have destroyed the coherency of our written language. I don't agree. And I don't think it much matters, really. I see language as a living thing and as one of our most democratic institutions we've got going. Yes, "random" individuals are responsible for what language is. That's not a glitch, it's a feature. :) Usage has always been the final arbiter in what we concider language. We have no Académie française in the English speaking world. We have no New Speak Dictionaries.

I'm curious--and this is my attempt to converse with you--so, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on Orwell's 1984? Do you think he was full of shit about language? Do you see any similarities between what you propose and what he called "New Speak?"

Quote:
There iz no reliable embedding. And even if there wuz, the notion that any practical advantage coud be gained thats worth 300 billion dollars per year to prezerve iz ludicrous.

See, you want language to be more "reliable" and more "practical" than it is. Good for you. You think you know what a more reliable and practical English language would look like. Interesting. And you think that you can force it to be more reliable and practical somehow. Have at it. Do your worst. Me, I don't need it to be any more reliable or practical than it is. I don't expect it to be more practical or reliable than it is, anymore than I expect my own history to be more practical or reliable than it is. Language is a link to the past. And the past cannot be improved.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try to change it. By all means. But your need to change our language is not mine.

Quote:
Wut destroying? Anybody who really carez to know the history uv the wordz can go to the library and fill their brainz to overflowing. They will learn the best available info frum the most respected academicianz. Far better than taking haf baked gessez based on their own limited knowledge and the peculiar spelling uv any word. "Hmm. The silent L probably indicates a French origin. If I'm correct, I know exactly jack squat more about this word that I've been using since I wuz 7."

And this is you being a dick by presenting your opposition as fools. It's so ironic to me, that you come here and blather on and on about improving language and, from what I see, you haven't the faintest clue about or interest in communicating with the members of this community. Actually communicate, actually reach out and make new connections. Deeply ironic.

Who expects to walk into a room full of strangers and start insulting them and talking down to them and to win them over to his way of thinking? You don't see that that's exactly what you're doing here?

Quote:
So a few centuryz frum now, long after Nooalf haz supplanted the Olde Spelling, elite nerdz can earn the privilij uv entering the holy aisles uv an actual book library, armed with their Oxford Encyclopedia app and track down the orijinz uv KoF, eJYQKAsN, KWiR, etc. without 10 billion people having to learn and then rite cough, education, choir, etc. collectively trillionz uv timez per year. How exciting it will be for the nerdz!

"Elite," "privilij," "holy," "nerdz." This is assholery you are engaging in. You've got a lot to learn about social skills, man.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:42 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Jo - do you go about posting in your newspeak at all the chat sites you can find, trying to generate traffic for your page and win over converts? Gotta say, I'm just not impressed.


Well he did try here...

http://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=4086

and here...

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/2664/Opinions-on-Nooalf

His site does have a entry on Something Awful...

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/awful-links/awful-link-1080.php

All I can say is:


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 8:01 AM

HKCAVALIER


Hey Nick,

Y'know, it's sad. When JO showed up on the other thread I took him for a language anarchist. I thought I understood what he was up to and I thought y'all were jumping down his throat for no good reason. Language orthodoxy as a tool of colonial domination I can get behind. I have great sympathy for that way of thinking. I thought Gyn/Ecology was a pretty great book back in the day (anyone know wtf I'm talking about?). But now he's revealed to be just another zeta male in a self-destructive struggle for dominance within a system he only pretends to oppose.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 9:23 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
His site does have a entry on Something Awful...

http://www.somethingawful.com/d/awful-links/awful-link-1080.php



Yep. I figured.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But now he's revealed to be just another zeta male in a self-destructive struggle for dominance within a system he only pretends to oppose.


Wow. Nicely done.


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Saturday, November 3, 2012 12:29 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Besidez, American English iz so widespred that nobody who speaks any dialect uv English cant understand it.


So in other words, you'd be standardising the language to american phonetics, not having a phonetic language. As if we don't get enough americanisms/america the great shoved down our throats.

Also, damn its ugly to look at.

I did once read a book written photetically 'Feersum Endjin" By Iain M Banks. I found it interesting, but hard to read.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 3:40 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


You are correct about my social skillz, HK.

I gave up a long time ago trying to figure out and fix wutever my problem iz. I hav less than zero salez talent! No joke!

If you believe in GOD or sum other metafizikl controlling forse in the Universe, or at least a local life-destiny influencing intelligence, the hypothesis that people get a set amount uv total talent distributed over all areaz uv activity and an increase in wun requirez an equal decrease in otherz coud explain why I coudnt sell ice in the dezert to a stranded eskimo. I hav a greater ability to dezine systemz, especially mechanical devicez, than anybody I hav ever met. The uncanny anti-salez ability balansez that out very effectively.

HK rote:
Quote:
You seem to think that these factors have destroyed the coherency of our written language. I don't agree.


Then you are denying a plain fact. English spelling iz just short uv being a logografy. This makes it even less efficient than Chinese, since Chinese makes no pretense uv being a fonetic alfubetic system.

Quote:
I see language as a living thing and as one of our most democratic institutions we've got going.


So why do you accept the complete tyrany of 'correct' spelling?

Quote:
Yes, "random" individuals are responsible for what language is. That's not a glitch, it's a feature.


Agreed.

Quote:
I'm curious--and this is my attempt to converse with you--so, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on Orwell's 1984? Do you think he was full of shit about language? Do you see any similarities between what you propose and what he called "New Speak?"


No. He wuz profoundly correct.

Think carefully about wut I hav sed concerning children being taught to read and write.

Quote:
See, you want language to be more "reliable" and more "practical" than it is. Good for you. You think you know what a more reliable and practical English language would look like.


Nooalf basicly duz 1 thing; It standardizez the letter to sound correspondence. Big freekin deal!

Take the perspectiv uv impartial outside observerz; Kang and Kodos, for example. They woud wonder wut the problem with that iz. It iz the essential operating idea uv an alfabetic system, after all, so why are the English speakerz so outraged by this Nooalf thing?

The ansr iz that the way they were taught to read iz thru indoctrination, so they bekum very emotionally disturbed by anything that pokes their brainz in that area.

Quote:
Language is a link to the past. And the past cannot be improved.


The future can be, tho.

Hav you looked at my corporate site yet? [url] http://www.zolkorp.com]



----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 4:14 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I hav a greater ability to dezine systemz, especially mechanical devicez, than anybody I hav ever met.


Then instead of trying to sell people on a new spelling system become a mechanical engineer. You should have zero problems becoming high demanded if you are truly that good.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Nooalf basicly duz 1 thing; It standardizez the letter to sound correspondence. Big freekin deal!


It is a big deal when you are trying to turn English into this...

XIS PAJ HaZ oL XU DETALZ UV HoW NQaLF WRKS

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Take the perspectiv uv impartial outside observerz; Kang and Kodos, for example.


The Simpson aliens, really...I mean fucking really?

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Hav you looked at my corporate site yet?


Perhaps it is not that you suck at selling, or that people stupidly resist your new spelling, but that they simply do not want what you are offering.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 5:23 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
First off I'm debating you, not your best of the 80's style website.


Wuts the difference? I rote it, so you need to consider the ideaz prezented there just az carefully az the less refined prezentationz here.

80's style? HA! I hav heard that the www wuz limited to basic black on wite text back then. I like color and piks. Personally I dislike the cramped up & cluttered columz on many sites theze days. I especially hate the News sites, such az Hufpost, that are so loaded with adz, active content and vizitor recording crappola that you cant use the gorram scroll for at least 30 secondz no matter how fast your connection!

Quote:
You argue that teaching children standard spelling is teaching them that logic does not matter. This could only be true if there is an expectation that words are spelled phonetically.


There iz. Thats wut alfabetic systems do! Look up 'alphabet' in the dictionary.

Quote:
.....you still hand wave away different dialects. Which you claim on your site is because written language is not phonetic.


Fonetic spelling helps to reduce dialectical drift. Spanish is very widespred, yet the different dialects are relatively close. A simple fonetic spelling helps increase literacy and literacy helps reduce dialectical drift.

Quote:
It really comes down to the fact that you have all these claims, but not one shred of empirical evidence to support them.


Are you denying that we hav a literacy problem in the English speaking countryz? Here: [url] http://www.childrenofthecode.org/]

Quote:
You claim that it has been debunked years ago that the roots of a word can't help someone derive its meaning, yet you give examples of doing just that.


My claim iz that it cannot be relied upon. Would you print 1000 copyz uv your resume with a word on it that you 'deduced' the meaning uv without looking it up to be sure? Wut examplez did I give besidez the jokes earlier?

Quote:
You say nooalf can be standard and be in different dialects. How the fuck would you do that?


Its eazy. Therez a dictionary pronunciation key perfect way to say each word. You could rite everything that way in Nooalf. Then therez a dialect thats considered perfect or at least considered to be proper. You can spell that with Nooalf. Then there are hundredz uv dialects that can be spelled with Nooalf at least close enuf to identify them, even if you cant understand them.

I spoke with a relative in England yesterday. Somewhere around Lincolnshire I think. Coud hardly understand a word, but if I had a recording, I'd be able to transcribe it in Nooalf bekuz it haz a letter for every foneme he uzed.

Quote:
My favorite part is claiming that if the rest of the world would wake up and see the problem your friend would win with his system because he is better prepared.


I sed he mite. I dont think so, tho, bekuz hiz system iz very inefficient. Nobody woud want to spend twice az much time writing az they do now.



----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 5:50 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Jo - do you go about posting in your newspeak at all the chat sites you can find, trying to generate traffic for your page and win over converts?


I dont expect to convert anybody. Waste uv time, since people who are already literate in English dont feel any need for improvement. My main reazon for viziting forumz iz that I hav an interest in the general subject they are about. The nonstandard spelling iz an eazy way to increase awareness uv the illiteracy problem, its root cauze and the solution.


Quote:
Especially ironic is your reference to Idiocracy. Your odd invention and your dismissal of all nuances of dialect, communication, history, and meaning in written language are right out of that `verse.


Especially ironic to me iz how your opinion can be so exactly rong.

Quote:
If you're serious, how about carrying out a study as to your language's efficacy, then submitting the results to a peer-reviewed journal? Do that, rather than waving your hands and repeating your (somewhat cluttered and hard to read) opinions, and maybe you'll get more positive responses.


Thats a reazonable suggestion. Maybe I'll do that if I ever hav any money.

I dont expect to get a good response, tho. I hav found that the higher level uv education people get in language subjects, the less conducive they are to Nooalf.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 6:15 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
So in other words, you'd be standardising the language to american phonetics, not having a phonetic language. As if we don't get enough americanisms/america the great shoved down our throats.


Are you British? If so, you are a fine wun to be complaining.

In any case, you are mischaracterizing the basic idea.

A language iz a dialect with an army. America haz the biggest army. Not my fault.

But cheer up!

An important aspect uv this iz that printing iz going away. The cost uv riting stuff in many languagez and dialects iz nearing zero. Any 'schmoe' with an internet connection can translate anything he wants into hiz favorit dialect no matter how few people speak it.

And with Nooalf, sumwun on the other side uv the planet who never heard uv the Lower South Wales suburban punk dialect will be able to 'hear' it by reading it in Nooalf.

Quote:
Also, damn its ugly to look at.


Its all about familiarity. And I shoud also make sum more attractive fonts.


----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 6:21 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Wow. And just like that another ugly American has achieved that coveted title.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 6:54 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Do I think there is a literacy problems in English speaking countries, no. I think we could improve but I don not think there is a huge problem. The CIA World Book rates the US and the United Kingdom both at 99% literacy. Now a they NAAL study completed in 2003 showed lower rates. It also had a higher standard considering full proficiency to be at an undergraduate level. Even it this study a large portion of the low ends of literacy is ESL and other deficiencies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate
http://nces.ed.gov/naal/kf_demographics.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_the_United_States

Further more you would have to show, empirically, that nooalf would lesson the problem there are with literacy rates. Until you have that you have enough to get a cup of coffee with an extra $1.25.

Now the definition of alphabet;

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/alphabet?s=t

I see one mention of phonetics, and this only states that the alphabet represent the sounds. Of course for a large part they do, but as this is only a single definition and certainly not the first there is no expectation of words being spelled phonically.

The whole dialect issue seems to be tying you into knots. On one end you argue that nooalf would reduce dialect drift and that one certain dialect that is considered proper. Which one would that be? I'm sure the English would want a say in that chap!

To confuse things more after you talk about a standard, you than say that nooalf can easily translate into other dialects. Okay, so if we do that it is not magically going to let you understand that relative better. Nor would it let him understand you better if reading nooalf written in your dialect. If you start exchanging e-mails with him (and drop the bullshit spelling of yours) you could understand each other fine.

The other thing you are stuck on is the fact that a person can perfectly understand the meaning of words based on there roots. It seems to you that if it is not 100% than the hell with it. Were is the logic in that? In those times a person can't look up a word roots can be important. They can be clues to a words meaning. They don't have to be perfect to help.

Again just because nooalf is shorter does not make it more proficient. It might if we invest massive changed to thing such as keyboards. You use "X" for a "th" sound. I am willing to wager most people who can type with any thing in the way of speed can hit "th" just as fast if not faster that "X". No to mention that you destroy capitalization rules which are a huge part of skimming text and identifying things such as proper names.

Finally I find it funny that you thin Spanish dialects are closer to each other than the English ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dialects_and_varieties

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 6:57 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I dont expect to get a good response, tho. I hav found that the higher level uv education people get in language subjects, the less conducive they are to Nooalf.


You would think that would be a clue.

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Saturday, November 3, 2012 7:00 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
[Are you British? If so, you are a fine wun to be complaining.

In any case, you are mischaracterizing the basic idea.

A language iz a dialect with an army. America haz the biggest army. Not my fault.

But cheer up!

An important aspect uv this iz that printing iz going away. The cost uv riting stuff in many languagez and dialects iz nearing zero. Any 'schmoe' with an internet connection can translate anything he wants into hiz favorit dialect no matter how few people speak it.

And with Nooalf, sumwun on the other side uv the planet who never heard uv the Lower South Wales suburban punk dialect will be able to 'hear' it by reading it in Nooalf.


Which of course takes away standardization with is often important.



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Saturday, November 3, 2012 9:32 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:

Are you British? If so, you are a fine wun to be complaining.

No I am not.

Quote:
In any case, you are mischaracterizing the basic idea.

A language iz a dialect with an army. America haz the biggest army. Not my fault.

Except that currently I can read without having to translate from an American accent. That is the beauty of non phonetic spelling. In fact one of the big things that China has over us is a completely non phonetic written script. So that people can read Mandarin who speak completely different dialects. A bit like how numbers are non phonetic.

Quote:
But cheer up!

I'm not uncheered. I just disagree with your ideas on language.

Have you read Feersum Endjun btw? I found that it took a lot longer to read because in order to do so I had to say the words in my head. It was like going back to early school. Normally when I read, I can comprehend without saying, silently or otherwise.

I think there may be some room for cleaning up a bit of spelling, but I am against your idea for the above reasons.

Tha leftenant sed to the clark, can yew get the troops to kew up for tee. Tomarto soop, beef stuw with scons for dzurt.

Quote:

And with Nooalf, sumwun on the other side uv the planet who never heard uv the Lower South Wales suburban punk dialect will be able to 'hear' it by reading it in Nooalf.


or they can just listen to someone speak through the internet.
Quote:
And I shoud also make sum more attractive fonts.

it will still look like an illiterate fool has written it, but good luck anyway.



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Saturday, November 3, 2012 10:45 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Do I think there is a literacy problems in English speaking countries, no. I think we could improve but I don not think there is a huge problem.


I have found that the literacy stats offered by sum soursez are wildly optimistic. And you hav to wonder how any uv them get their numberz.

Herez a Google search to peruze: [url] https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1008&bih
=407&q=illiteracy+statistics&gbv=2&oq=illiteracy&gs_l=aol-hp.1.2.0l10.24329.30834.0.37532.13.11.1.1.1.0.305.2171.1j5j4j1.11.0...0.0...1ac.1._XXeU_hqJZE]

Just so you cant accuze me uv cherry picking.

Its hard to argue against the fact that its way eazier to learn 34 letterz than 34,000 stringz uv letterz....

Quote:
Now the definition of alphabet;....
I see one mention of phonetics, and this only states that the alphabet represent the sounds.


...but if you are willing to arguing against the fundamental definition uv wordz, you cant looz! (at least in your own mind)



----------------------------
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Sunday, November 4, 2012 4:03 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I have found that the literacy stats offered by sum soursez are wildly optimistic. And you hav to wonder how any uv them get their numberz.


Most of the time you can find there methodology. It still depends on what their criteria is for literacy.


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Its hard to argue against the fact that its way eazier to learn 34 letterz than 34,000 stringz uv letterz....


Sure, but just leaning the letters and the sounds they represent is only a part of literacy. You can't ignore all the factor that go into a literacy deficiency. It is not just because spelling is hard. There are other factor such as social economic conditions and learning disability. You can't also ignore the fact that for adults learning any language is more difficult.

...and you still have zero empirical evidence your system will do any better.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:...but if you are willing to arguing against the fundamental definition uv wordz, you cant looz! (at least in your own mind)


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alphabet

What fundamental definition? Alphabet - a set of letters or other characters with which one or more languages are written especially if arranged in a customary order.

Sorry, still no expectation of words being spelled phonetically.

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 4:49 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Are you familiar with the term 'cherry picking'?

Try reading a little further down the paje you linked.

And from my 1968 Funk & Wagnall's Encyclopedic dictionary:

2. any system of characters or symbols representing the sounds of speech.

Very similar from my 1970 American Heritage:

2. Any system of characters or symbols representing sounds or things.

Theres a statement ritten in gold on the front cover of the American Heritage dictionary that really nails it:

"The power of words properly understood and used is mankind's most precious gift."



----------------------------
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Sunday, November 4, 2012 5:02 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Cherry picking is exactly what you are doing. There are different definitions of alphabet and not all of them has to do with representing the sounds of speech, and certainly they do not state that each letter should or would represent a single sound. English has been around for a long damn time and there has never been this expectation of perfect phonemic spelling.

Oh, and if you are going try and cherry pick definition it would be smart not to copy the "2." in front of them.

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 5:03 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Herez a paje about literacy training and the Alfabetic Principal:

[url] http://www.readingrockets.org/article/3408/]

Quote:
Children's reading development is dependent on their understanding of the alphabetic principle – the idea that letters and letter patterns represent the sounds of spoken language. Learning that there are predictable relationships between sounds and letters allows children to apply these relationships to both familiar and unfamiliar words, and to begin to read with fluency.


Wun uv the featurez on the Nooalf charts iz an introductory chart for traditional spelling. It haz the regular 26 letterz in CAPS and lower case with the most common soundz each uv them makes.

----------------------------
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Sunday, November 4, 2012 5:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I've been in favor of phoneticized spelling for years, althoh miy kunstrukshun wood bee difrent.

Part of the reason is because both my hubby and MIL came from a different country and had no end of difficulty learning how to spell, and boys in general have a tough time with spelling.

In looking up international science and math scores, I noticed that all of the English-speaking nations are behind the non-English speaking nations. That iz beekuz, Iy beeleev, we are SO BUSY reciting "I before E except after C or when sounding like AY as in NEIGHBOR or WEIGH"

I'm fully aware of the history of the English language... it's an incompletely digested mix of ancient Greek, Latin, French, German, Spanish, and more... making it a wonderful melange of flavors from history and around the world. But it's also grabbed the spelling rules from each language (hence the ei and ie French/ German confusion).

On the plus side, I found it very helpful having a wide ENGLISH vocabulary in learning French via Latin-based words like cincture for ceinture and fenestration for fenetre(circumflex second "e"), and of course everyone can relate das bier (beer) and die jacke (jacket) from German.

And English has some really great grammatical features, such as a verb tense which indicates time and pronouns such as "I" and "she" (which Mandarin doesn't have), a neutral gender which is reliably used for inanimate objects (take THAT, French and German!), and the divorcement of adjectives, adverbs, verbs (for the most part) and objects from the other words they describe (in which you would have to describe your shiny black female table as a shineye blacke tablete)... take THAT all other languages!)

On the downside... more grammatical than phonetic... English also has a few grammatical glitches... lack of a plural "you" (often constructed as "yous" or "yous guys"), and the NOUN-VERB-OBJECT construction and that quirky third-person singular verb construction which puts an "s" at the end of third-person verbs (I roll/ you roll/ He-she-it rolls). Hmmm.. also, while I'm thinking about it, lack of a truly genderless singular third person...we wind up saying "they" instead of "he" or "she" because we don't have anything else... but maybe we can work on those later...

Also on the negative... Yep, it would be great if in teaching the language we could also teach everyone the root words so that people would get an introduction to a half-dozen or so other languages (some of them dead), but the reality is that people have a hard enough time just getting through English. If you reelee want to know a word's origins, just go to the dikshunaree.


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Sunday, November 4, 2012 5:45 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
Herez a paje about literacy training and the Alfabetic Principal:

[url] http://www.readingrockets.org/article/3408/]

Quote:
Children's reading development is dependent on their understanding of the alphabetic principle – the idea that letters and letter patterns represent the sounds of spoken language. Learning that there are predictable relationships between sounds and letters allows children to apply these relationships to both familiar and unfamiliar words, and to begin to read with fluency.


Wun uv the featurez on the Nooalf charts iz an introductory chart for traditional spelling. It haz the regular 26 letterz in CAPS and lower case with the most common soundz each uv them makes.


Okay....and?

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 6:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BTW- I always wondered where the "f" came from in lieutenant. The only thing I can figure is the English-French wars and rivalry made it impossible for Brits to pronounce many clearly French-sourced words with anything like a French pronunciation.


Kerb. Sensiblee speld.

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 6:28 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
...lack of a plural "you" (often constructed as "yous" or "yous guys")...

Ahem: y'all. Just sayin'.

See, but here's a thing: you phoneticized "construction" as "kunstrukshun" when to my ear it's clearly pronounced "konstrukshun." As I understand it, French, Italian and Spanish all have pretty standardized pronunciations. Sure, there are regional differences, but to my knowledge, they are legitimately regional, while here in America pronunciation seems thoroughly whimsical. And a lot of Americans mumble. Id hata ree summava mumlin pipl's fnetiwridin. With a fully phoneticized written language, what would stop English from becoming dozens of little incompatible patois? The consistency of written English seems a strength, not a weakness in that case. I guess, then the idea is to standardize pronunciation and that's why our non-American friends think JO's being an ass.

Sorry, guess this conversation has already been had and I'm just catching up. Just hard for me to get past the unsupported assholery of JO, whereas Signy is speaking in a language I understand. Carry on. (Carrion?)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 7:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, I have been well-schooled in the difference between merry, marry, and Mary. I STILL can't hear the difference, tho!

I think that standardized phoneticized English would actually do away with a lot of pronunciation differences, and I would be sad to see (hear? heer?) them go. As far as deciding exactly WHICH spelling to use, I'd be OK with nearly any of them. I have seen dialogue written to match accent which was perfectly interpretable (I fond it fife fit don... I found it five feet down) but I expect that eventually there will be a common spelling and that the result will not be PERFECTLY phonetic anway, just a closer approximation.

I do see upsides and downsides, but overall I think the upsides are greater.

PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH Y'ALL!

But doze guyz from Joyzee... yuz guyz gotta tayk it up wid da boss!


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Sunday, November 4, 2012 1:55 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Thanks for the unbiased support, SIGNYM

Most uv the world knowz wut a problem English spelling iz, but unfortunately, literate nativez hav the strongest hold on the language'z future.

M52 rote:
Quote:
Okay....and?


I'll spell it out for you.

The quote sez that childrenz reading development iz dependent on comprehending the alfabetic principal.

Having a reliable connection between letterz and soundz iz THE essential part uv the principal. The less reliable that connection, the greater the difficulty in acquiring literacy.

The traditional spelling chart in the Nooalf charts showz between 1 and 4 soundz that a letter coud reprezent and thats only the most common and any letter coud also be silent. This shoots that reliable connection thing to hell. The alfabetic principal bekumz a foggy illusion.

This foggy illusion haz spawned a huge market for products that promise to help struggling students catch up. A complete Jolly Phonics course costs over 1,000$! Go to the toy department at Walmart and you will find an aisle full uv toyz, gamez and books that all do the same thing: rote memorization.

Nooalf, by comparison, can be learned from a chart the size uv a bizness card by average children in a month with little or no assistence.

Your were going say 'proov it' next. Then you woud ignore wutever I offered, claiming 'I see no evidence'.

So lets bypass the predictable rigamarole. I'll send you a PoKIT PIKS mini chart and even a Super Mini Chart for free. You can give them to sum ordinary English speaking children who arent reading yet and see for yourself.





----------------------------
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http://www.nooalf.com

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 2:40 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:

Nooalf, by comparison, can be learned from a chart the size uv a bizness card by average children in a month with little or no assistence.

Your were going say 'proov it' next. Then you woud ignore wutever I offered, claiming 'I see no evidence'.

So lets bypass the predictable rigamarole. I'll send you a PoKIT PIKS mini chart and even a Super Mini Chart for free. You can give them to sum ordinary English speaking children who arent reading yet and see for yourself.


No thanks, not going to waste time teaching my children something that they will never use. Besides If I really wanted a cart I would just grab the image off your site. A quick print screen and past into paintbrush works. You really should look to lock that down.

You are right I'm am going to point out that your claims are unfounded and amount to the wind from a passing fart. It is conceivable that a child would be able to learn the rules for nooalf pretty quickly. That does not mean it is a better system. The majority of people do fine learning to read. If anything we need to find better ways to teach those who do struggle. You know the old saying about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

...of course that would take real work.

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Sunday, November 4, 2012 3:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Foist uv all ...

Why is everyone struggling over which symbols and which pronunciation? There is a perfectly good American standard pronunciation and set of phonetic symbols in every dictionary. If you REALLY want to know how to pronounce something - and have the symbols that go right with it - it's right there. Has been for years.

But what to do about all those OTHER English-speaking countries that might have different pronunciation and may not be so hep with American English pronunciation crammed down their throats with phonetic spelling. Will American children learn American spelling and be then unable to function in the rest of the English speaking world? Like America isn't backward enough as it is.

And what of the Chinese? Surely no one is claiming they have excellent academics b/c of their phonetic alphabet. Or the ease of their pronunciation.

I personally would like to see a 'New English' invented - without the hiccups of the old English (no personal singular neutral word, which leads people to say 'they' when they don't want to specify 'he' or 'she', some of the better verb tenses of other languages, eliminate assumed being male, and object-verb construction which is neurologically natural framing, among others). Yeah yeah I know - let's all learn Esperanto! ..not..

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Monday, November 5, 2012 3:03 AM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


The other countryz are gobbling up American Standard az fast az Hollywood and rock bandz can crank it out, 1KIKI.

If they dont like to see it in riting, they are perfectly welcome to rite in their own dialect.

A practical advantaj will be that you can see where sumthing wuz ritten.

M52 rote:
Quote:
No thanks,


You are so predictable.

Quote:
If I really wanted a cart I would just grab the image off your site. A quick print screen and past into paintbrush works. You really should look to lock that down.


You can download the entire ToKING PIKsRZ file for free. Full size chart with hundredz uv wordz in traditional English and Nooalf all with sound. Its on the site sumwhere.

I had hopes uv making money with this in the beginning, but realized the level uv rezistence iz too hi. It woud be nice to make at least enuf for the effort to support itself, but so far it aint happening. Likely sumthing to do with that antisalez talent I mentioned earlier.

A frend uv mine who witnessed me unselling sumthing called it 'universal anti-kovorka'.

Quote:
It is conceivable that a child would be able to learn the rules for nooalf pretty quickly. That does not mean it is a better system.


Very quickly. Each letter makes 1 sound. Thats the only rule. And yes, it obviously duz mean its a better system. Are you going to deny the entire concept uv advantage now?

Quote:
The majority of people do fine learning to read.


In wun uv the interviewz on the Children uv the Code website, wich you obviously didnt bother to vizit, an educational proffessional sez "Sum kidz learn to read riding past the library on their bikes. Other struggle for yearz and never really catch on. Most are sumwer in between." Az SIGNYM mentioned, the price our kidz are paying iz delayed education in real subjects.

Thanks for starting this topic, M52, but you seem to not hav any dezire to participate in an honest debate. Ignoring links, repeating lost arguments, denying plain facts & lojik are the futile tactics uv sumwun whoz beliefs dont hold up on their own.

----------------------------
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http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, November 5, 2012 4:43 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
The other countryz are gobbling up American Standard az fast az Hollywood and rock bandz can crank it out, 1KIKI.


Yes, the current standard. Take a hint.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:
I had hopes uv making money with this in the beginning, but realized the level uv rezistence iz too hi. It woud be nice to make at least enuf for the effort to support itself, but so far it aint happening. Likely sumthing to do with that antisalez talent I mentioned earlier.

A frend uv mine who witnessed me unselling sumthing called it 'universal anti-kovorka'.


The fact that you can't even give your stuff away should be another hint. People are resistant to it largely because it sucks like a new born calf.

You fail to realize that any type of spelling reform is going to have to serve many masters. On big one is that it will have to give people the ability to decipher older texts, and keep the existing alphabet. It is very possible change spelling to better match phonetics without wholesale change. There is absolutely no reason to change "th" with is one of the easier rules to understand to "X". So trying to peg the alphabet to 1 letter equals one sound is fairly stupid.

Fuck, nooalf does not even truly get a 1 to 1 ratio since there are somewhere between 40 to 50 unique sounds to the English language.

http://www.auburn.edu/academic/education/reading_genie/spellings.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology
http://www.esl-lounge.com/pronunciation/phonetic-chart.php

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Very quickly. Each letter makes 1 sound. Thats the only rule. And yes, it obviously duz mean its a better system. Are you going to deny the entire concept uv advantage now?


That single rule is also a problem. You forget things like the importance of capitalization and such. Fuck you don't even respond to it. You simply can't wrap your head around the fact that simpler and easier is not always better.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:In wun uv the interviewz on the Children uv the Code website, wich you obviously didnt bother to vizit, an educational proffessional sez "Sum kidz learn to read riding past the library on their bikes. Other struggle for yearz and never really catch on. Most are sumwer in between." Az SIGNYM mentioned, the price our kidz are paying iz delayed education in real subjects.


In between does not mean struggling. As far as delayed education in real subjects, one language is a real subject. Than you have the fact that students are learn many things much sooner that they ever did in the past. A large portion of those who complete high school do so with some knowledge to advance studies such as calculus.

Quote:
Originally posted by JO753:Thanks for starting this topic, M52, but you seem to not hav any dezire to participate in an honest debate. Ignoring links, repeating lost arguments, denying plain facts & lojik are the futile tactics uv sumwun whoz beliefs dont hold up on their own.

Here pretend I speak in a Scottish accent for a moment...fook u!

You have hand waved issues I have brought up and addressed almost every other one with nothing but personal opinion. That is not winning a debate or even having an intelligent discussion.

That shit is the very reason nooalf will never be anything other that your site and you pushing it on random discussion boards you come across. You have put in no serious work and seem immune to any type of criticism. You somehow think that this will catch on just by your ugly ass website and you pushing it. It won't.

You made a comment about nooalf will someday in the future being widespread. This delusion of grandeur should be proof enough of your psychosis. In the future the there is only one place nooalf will ever be seen, and the people who happen past will wonder if the someone had a seizure while carving your headstone.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 1:20 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


Quote:
You fail to realize...yada yada yada


You offer up several criteeks uv the Nooalf spelling system and its implimentation. Every wun indicating that you didnt read or failed to comprehend wut passed under your eyez on the website.

Dont take this az a personal attack, but you started out angry and are getting angrier. Jujing by that and your generally sloppy grammar, punctuation and even spelling, I think this iz a sensativ issue for you; that you had trouble in grammar skool and got teazed andor punished for it.

Calm down. Get a grip. Keep in mind that this iz just a discussion forum on the internet.

If you want to debate anything, you hav to know wut youre talking about. So you need to install the font [url] http://www.nooalf.com/2NQ4YQ/] and then read [url] http://www.nooalf.com/LoJIK.html] with the attitude uv a student rather than a combatant.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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Monday, November 5, 2012 2:07 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Commenting on my grammar is funny coming from a person who writes like a blind man with a broken keyboard.

If you are unwilling to debate here than go away. I'm not spending my time decoding your stupid shit. Which as I pointed out can't be one letter for one sound since there are more sounds than you have letters. My spelling and grammar may suck, but I can do simple math.

So out of all the points you have failed to address let us start with that one.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 9:10 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr


You are adding evidence in support uv my hypothosis that goofed up spelling promotes bad lojik in general.

Until you actually lern wut you are talking about I can rite anything here and you wont hav any way to dispute it. You will only be able to continue making a fool uv yourself by hurling insults.

Sumbody mentioned the entry for Nooalf on the Something Awful website. (its sorta like the web equivelent uv a morning zoo radio show)

That wuz an amuzing couple uv dayz after that posted. I got a bunch uv rowdy emailz frum people calling me a moron, saying people who cant spell are just lazy or stupid; out uv 30 or 40 letterz only 2 were in favor uv spelling reform at all and they only had the usual 'ough' simplificationz in mind.

The thing that shoud interest you iz that a dozen or so got the idea to write their insults in Nooalf, just to prove how clever they are.

How poorly woud you expect sum haf drunk college punks to do with a system they didnt know existed 5 minits ago, picking letterz off a chart on their screen to write their profanity saturated jeerz?

Most uv them were pretty close. Usually just a few superfluous Uz or lapsez to regular spelling, but there wuznt 1 word that I coudnt read immediately. 1 guy actually wrote 3 sentencez with only a single mistake.

This shoud be enuf to dispel 2 uv your arguments.

1. There are no missing letter/soundz. All the referncez you will find from suppozedly authoritativ soursez that say there are 40 or more soundz in English are mistaken. The fact that different soursez claim different numberz shoud clue you in that sumthingz not quite rite in the wonderful world uv linguistics.

I've debated that issue with dozenz uv people, including sum Ph.D linguists, and they all either gave up or conceded that I am correct.

35 soundz are needed to completely reprezent every word in the English lexicon. 1 sound, 'au', can be dispensed with for the Standard American dialect creating only a hand full uv ambiguous word pairz.

2. Nooalf iz very compatible with regular spelling. Your refuzal to study the system well enuf to even begin critsizing it iz based purely on fear.

You are afraid that knowing anything about it will begin to erode your faith in traditional spelling; that you will start to see how truly rediculous it iz.



----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.nooalf.com

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