random thought by 1kiki

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

You seem to be using RWA thinking here (along with circular logic) - using an authority called the bible to prove an assertion (that the bible is right). I think it's a pristine example of you hewing to stories rather than reality (as well as a chasm in your logic).

"Rainbows are made of light? That just proves God made them. After all...'let there be light' was kinda how God got started. Nothing, nothing, nothing...then light, the universe, and Sheldon."

Just preserving this stunning example of FAIL.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 7:37 PM

My first major break with religious teaching happened
about the age of 5.

God is the Creator; besides the Universe, He also
created us. God made me, and with infinite power &
wisdom, I figured He'd done it right.

I was taught in Sunday school and by my Granny that
God is the Best; He is the most loving, merciful and
fair. He loves us all deeply.
That made perfect sense to me, and I believed it.

I don't recall them mentioning Hell in Sunday school
when I was so little. Perhaps I learned it from Sis
who was older. Hell is a place that's always on fire.
If you are bad, God will send you to hell when you die.
Your body would be resurrected, I guess, so as to go
down there with you, 'cause only in a physical body
could you feel the infinite pain of being burned alive
forever.
You could be sent to Hell for some pretty minor stuff,
too, such as chosing the wrong Religion to follow in
spite of your best effort to see the Truth. The wrong
religion out of many religions.

God loves me. God will probably send me to Hell.
That didn't compute at 5. Pretty sure it never will.

I continued then to believe in God because I wanted to.
I figured the religion or the people teaching it must
have made a mistake somewhere about the hell crap.

A series of steps would follow over the years.

At 15, I had far more doubt than faith, guessed I
must be an Agnostic. I still wanted God, but could
not convince myself.

Later (mid to late 20's?), there would be a revelation
that restored my faith in God, the One of infinite love
and wisdom. There was nothing in it to make me seek
religion.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 10:04 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

This is actually a good topic Nikki, although I don't agree with you :)

It's non-combative though, because I don't believe that even you really agree with you here.

Let me break it down 3 ways.........

1) What is a believer in Christianity?

A person who believes with blind faith that there is a higher power controlling everything.

According to which people you talk with, you could even be Adolph Hitler and still get into heaven if you "believe right".

2) What is an Atheist?

Somebody who shares a lot in common with a person like me who doesn't believe a thing the government tells us is true. No scientific proof, no God.... easy peasey.... right?

3) What is a NORMAL human being?

Anybody who has had no proof either way, but has a large enough mind and spirit to believe that the possibility of something greater is not only possible but is true, although it might equally not be true.

To all the Christians of any "sect" that say the rest are going to hell, I say...

Fuck You....

To any intolerant religions like Muslimism who say the same, I say....

Fuck You....

To any science-type minded Atheist people who live by a code of ever-changing theories to try to explain what is unexplainable, I say....

Fuck You....

NOT ONE OF YOU HAS A SINGLE ANSWER!

Until one of you do, I will live my life as depraved as can be without any repercussion outside of man's law.

Has anyone here known the pleasure of having 3 mindless slaves licking and sucking their toes at the same time and calling them god?

I have, and according to my own potential beliefs, only my afterlife will tell me I was wrong and make me suffer. If there is no afterlife, I'm living a life any one of you could achieve with a little work on your part with no negative effects.

Why are you atheists even posting here when you could be having constant sexual pleasure every second while you're working for ??

You have NO idea how pleasurable pleasure can be in a life, truly Deus Ex......

I'm just man enough to admit that there may be a price to pay.

Not only that, but what good is pleasure worth without pain?

Prove it to me, all you Atheists.....

Show me there is no God and there is no repercussions.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 4:42 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
You seem to be using RWA thinking here (along with circular logic) - using an authority called the bible to prove an assertion (that the bible is right). I think it's a pristine example of you hewing to stories rather than reality (as well as a chasm in your logic).

Clearly you don't believe in Pizza Hut because you discovered pizza to be made of dough, sauce, and cheese.

McDonalds does not exist because Big Mac's are made of two all-beef patties, special sauce, pickles, lettuce, on cheese on a seseme seed bun.

God created light...the fact that you have a broader understanding of the nature of light and it's interaction with Earth's atmosphere and water does not change the fact that it was created or that rainbows have a symbolic meaning to God's relationship to mankind (and/or Irish midgets and gold).

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 4:45 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
NOT ONE OF YOU HAS A SINGLE ANSWER!

42

In other words maybe your questions are lacking. After all if you don't know the question you wont understand or appreciate the answer.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 5:13 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
You seem to be using RWA thinking here (along with circular logic) - using an authority called the bible to prove an assertion (that the bible is right). I think it's a pristine example of you hewing to stories rather than reality (as well as a chasm in your logic).

"Rainbows are made of light? That just proves God made them. After all...'let there be light' was kinda how God got started. Nothing, nothing, nothing...then light, the universe, and Sheldon."

Just preserving this stunning example of FAIL.

So, show me your proof that God didn't make light, or create the physics that make light and rainbows posssible.

I'm an agnostic, so I see Athiests and religionists as both believing in something they can't prove. Unless you have proof of the non-existence of God (or gods) you have only faith, just like the most fundie, snake-handling, speaking-in-tongues, church-goer.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 5:51 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Unless you have proof of the non-existence of God (or gods) you have only faith

Well, there's also logic imo. One can start by making a compelling case to rule out each of the earth's religions. If a holy text is replete with falsehoods, inaccuracies and contradictions, it stands to no reason that this is 'God's message to humanity'. God would not make so many mistakes. So if none of the religions are true, we're only left with the possibility of a creator who has no interest in interaction with his creation. So what's his angle, voyeurism?

Atheists can't have certainty, but they should be allowed a certain degree of logical conviction, I think.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 6:01 AM

CAVETROLL

Faith exists in the absence of proof. Faith exists when by all logic it should be extinguished. In the Christian faith, even Jesus had his moment of doubt.

Compare two different acts of faith, the Protestant work ethic and the Islamic ethic. The Protestant ethic can be summed up by an ancient Greek phrase; God helps those who help themselves. Most Americans actually believe this phrase comes from the Bible. Martin Luther had reframed work as a benefit to the individual and to society as a whole. Thus, good work is work towards the individuals salvation. Or other Protestant faiths believe that good work is repayment of God's grace and guaranteed salvation.

In Islamic society the motivating phrase is; Insh'Allah. "If God wills it." This is codified in Islamic scriptures by Surat Al Kahf "And never say of anything, 'I shall do such and such thing tomorrow. Except (with the saying): 'If God wills!' And remember your Lord when you forget...'" This cultural attitude is blamed by various sources as the reason why Arab culture ceased scientific inquiry, exploration and expansion. This ethic places the responsibility for results upon the almighty, instead of those who dare.

This same thought is expressed in the Bible in James 4: 13-15 “Now listen, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.’ Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, ‘If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that’” For whatever reason, perhaps it was the Protestant reformation or not, this idea did not take root in western Christianity.

But since this is a question of moments of Atheism (itself another religion) and began with an appeal to authority in the form of logic and scientific method, I'll supply my own appeal to authority.

Quote:

A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 9:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Unless you have proof of the non-existence of God (or gods) you have only faith

Well, there's also logic imo. One can start by making a compelling case to rule out each of the earth's religions. If a holy text is replete with falsehoods, inaccuracies and contradictions, it stands to no reason that this is 'God's message to humanity'. God would not make so many mistakes. So if none of the religions are true, we're only left with the possibility of a creator who has no interest in interaction with his creation. So what's his angle, voyeurism?

Atheists can't have certainty, but they should be allowed a certain degree of logical conviction, I think.

Then again, followers of Deism believe that "...reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a creator, accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

So Deists would seem to think that the existence of light proves(or at least gives a pretty compelling case) that there is a creator.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:10 AM

Spock: Fascinating!

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:13 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

Why are you atheists even posting here when you could be having constant sexual pleasure every second while you're working for ??

You have NO idea how pleasurable pleasure can be in a life, truly Deus Ex......

DO you think the only reason that people do not behave as lunatics is because of fear of god's law?

It is perfectly possible to have a moral code and not be religious. You do what you do because you think it is the right way to behave, not because you are fearful of restribution.

One is behaving as a grown up, the other as a child.

You bring these discussions down.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:20 AM

No revelation, never cared, parents didn't care either. Extended family thinks I'm a hellion and satan's own. I'm perfectly okay with that - almost a compliment really.

Quote:
Prove it to me, all you Atheists.....

Show me there is no God and there is no repercussions.

Why should I bother? You're already living like it. You'll make your choices and have your beliefs regardless of anything any of us might say.

In any case, since I don't prescribe to the same views of good and evil as you do - or at all, actually - I can safely say that HEDONISM is not the same thing as AMORALITY. That you choose to take your nothing to lose life and devote it to debauchery and worrying about your brother is no comment on what I do with my nothing to lose life, except to say this: I do not worry about anyone, and your pleasures are meaningless to me.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:28 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

Beautiful.

Another commonly held mistaken view, that without belief in god who rules over us, there is no spirituality, no sense of the bigger picture and the tiny part we play in it.

Equally untrue is that religious people always care about such things. There are religious people I've known who have the narrowest of views of existence.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 10:31 AM

STORYMARK

I consider myself agnostic, so I can't leap fully into this conversation as an atheist - but I did have a moment.

It was when I was 7 or so, and at my Grandfather's funeral, the pastor said to her "Gale was a good man, too bad he was never baptized, and is going to hell."

So, while I still maintain a modicum of faith in something (none of the prescribed options, I assure you), it was at that moment that I decided I wanted nothing to do with "religion."

Oh, and as agnostic - I still find the argument that athesist are believing in something to be a moronic argument. Absense of beliefe is not belief. And demanding someone to prove a negative is intellectually dishinest from the get-go. Yes, Im talking to Geezer.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:03 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Oh, and as agnostic - I still find the argument that athesist are believing in something to be a moronic argument.

Then you haven't met some of the Atheists I have. There are Atheists who are downright militant that you must actively deny that any sort of god, deity, creator, spirit, soul, etc. exists. They can't prove the non-existence of god any more than the religionists can prove his (hers, theirs, whatever)existence. To me, they're all operating on faith based on what they want the world to be.

You, of course are welcome to your own opinion, even if it is worthless.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:07 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
They can't prove the non-existence of god...

Dumbass apparently engaged his knee-jerk before reading the rest of my post.

Quote:
You, of course are welcome to your own opinion, even if it is worthless.

Given you're almost always being wrong - I take your condemnation as a high compliment.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:08 AM

Interesting, Geezer. You go from some to all within the course of a paragraph.

I do not care what you believe. And I don't even care if you believe in it. It is largely irrelevant.

I imagine the feeling is mutual.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:31 AM

No revelation for me either. I always thought the Biblical God was pretty obviously not real, and frankly I'm baffled by people who find Biblical religions uplifting. I understand that they do, and more power to them for having something make them happy, but the whole thing is nothing but an oppressive downer to me. It's like knowing that some people out there LOVE the crispy crunch of fried tarantulas. Ack! How can they?

I find it far more inspiring and beautiful to skip Man's Translation (the Bible) and go straight to the source (the Universe and everything in it). Living by the Bible is like sitting at your TV watching a weatherperson describe a sunny day rather than walking out your door and enjoying it for yourself.

Regarding light and the "creator": the fallacious assumption is that everything must be created the way that human beings create a cheeseburger. Light and the physical structure of reality must have come into being in some way, but only the human desire to be the center of the universe demands that it all be "created" by a human-like tinkerer with thoughts and emotions and a robe and a beard and avid interest in what people eat and who/how they fuck.

Creationists say that life is too complicated to have come into being in any way other than being "designed" by a very human-like deity. Bullocks! Nature is far more complicated than we can imagine or explain, even after centuries of effort. It is a system that is more than capable of creating us.

The problem with a non-human natural system as "creator" is that this "belief" system doesn't empower "preachers" to bully people at the most fundamental level - by judging their souls. The Nature God doesn't care who marries who, whether women control their bodies, or what anyone does on a Sunday morning. Religion is all about a power structure. Some people like to hold the power--these make sure God has their image (old white father figure with lots and lots of rules and the ability to reward or punish). Other people like to be led, to be told what to do so they'll know they are behaving and can be righteously sure that they are "moral." They don't have to take responsibility for defining and testing their own morality, which is why I think so many hypocrites, sexual and otherwise, are drawn into religion. It shields them from judgment and strengthens their denial.

Religion is a total sham, but it works in the evolutionary sense. It does its job and survives as a social entity. In evolution things don't survive because they are "better", right? They survive because they "fit" their environment. Religion is an excellent fit to the human psyche and our social hierarchy.

I like to think we're outgrowing it. It'd be nice.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 11:56 AM

I haven't known a lot of dedicated, screaming Atheists,
but I gotta go with Geezer on this. Some atheists are
very pushy.

For them, the Intellect, their own intellect in particular,
rules, knows all that can be known. Those who need the
crutch of religion are both weak and ignorant. Those who
try to stradle the fence of Agnosticism are wishy-washy,
flawed thinkers.

The few Atheists I have known seemed very negative
& competitive, as if to say, "Just because you are here
doesn't mean you have a right to be here. You must justify
your existence. And only I, the smartest person in the
room, have a right to exist." They were just as fearful,
angry and judgemental as some religious nuts are.

Contempt for others can be a way of life.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:14 PM

(Still can't tell if Oonj is directing that at me)

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:16 PM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:

I haven't known a lot of dedicated, screaming Atheists,
but I gotta go with Geezer on this. Some atheists are
very pushy.

That they are.

But being pushy does not make it a system of belief. That is the fallacy Im arguing with.

Sure, lots of atheists are straight-up assholes. But that doesn't suddenly make a lack of belief INTO a belief.

Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:17 PM

Oonj - you gotta look at what the two sides are trying to do. Religion: trying to force gay people to live without the one they live (and to hate themselves for doing what is natural for them), women to bear children they do not want, scientists to deny what they see right in front of them and quit asking questions, and atheists to admit they are immoral, directionless, and will go to Hell.

Atheists just want to be left the hell alone. They includes leaving me to make decisions about my body with my doctor and not your preacher, or the gay men to do whatever they find pleasing with each other's penises.

I'm sure these asshole atheists exist, because no group is free of assholes. Fact of life. But atheistic extremists are not near as dangerous and intrusive as religious whackos.

Atheists annoy deists. Whoopy. Deists want to take freedoms away from atheists. Much bigger deal.

I'm just happy that we've reached the point that I can tell nosy religious folks to fuck off and I won't be burned at the stake for it.

When was the last time an atheist burned a believer at the stake?

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:23 PM

I'm not sure most of the people prescribing to either belief meets Mal4Prez's descriptions.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I'm not sure most of the people prescribing to either belief meets Mal4Prez's descriptions.

So - why are there measures on all kinds of ballots actively trying to limit individual freedom based on religious beliefs?

And how many ballot measures are trying to remove individual rights to go to church?

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 12:57 PM

Quote:
So - why are their measures on all kinds of ballots actively trying to limit individual freedom based on religious beliefs?

Because some religious people are douchebags. They hardly stand as representatives of all religious people.

Quote:
And how many ballot measures are trying to remove individual rights to go to church?

There are quite a number of ballot measures that an atheist would view as common sense, but that a religious person would view as restricting the expression of their religion. One that comes to mind, though I don't agree the school in question, is a catholic school that has an insurance policy that refuses to provide contraceptives.

In any case, all of the friction between atheists and religious types is just another divisive wedge issue invented by TPTB. It is as though neither side views the other side as humans, but some sort of oppressive same-faced army posing some kind of threat to them.

I restate my opinion that personal and religious beliefs do not matter except to the person having them.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:14 PM

Does Anyone Here Have Any Interest in History?

Religion has been outlawed from time to time.
Nearly all religions, I'll suppose, have seen their days
as Persecutors and Persecutees.

Albania: Religion, Identity, and Solidarity
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Eqkdl-zQItoJ:www.
millsaps.edu/svp/Beilmann%25202006%2520thesis.pdf+%22religion+was+outlawed%22&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

or PDF: www.millsaps.edu/svp/Beilmann%202006%20thesis.pdf

"In 1945 the country began what was to be a period of long and
oppressive communist rule. Until communism was officially lifted
in 1991, religion was outlawed and religious participation of any
kind was persecuted under the regulation of Enver Hoxha.
Hoxha’s regime forced people to find ways to practice crypto-
Christianity. Pettifer and Vickers assert that “. . . although
Albania had proclaimed itself the world’s first totally atheist
state, it could not eradicate all religious beliefs and practices,
but merely drove them underground;""

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:14 PM

CHRISISALL

I was about 7 when in Sunday school, the teacher, using old 'colorform' stickers was demonstrating how Jesus left the cave his body was in, and the big rock at the entrance was moved aside so he could go, and I asked why couldn't he just fly up through the cieling and the teacher said she didn't know and I realized it was all low concept story.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:23 PM

Jesus resurrected ... High Concept Story

I suppose it was very important for His followers
to see the great rock moved and Jesus come walking
out of the cave.

It was miraculous.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
So - why are their measures on all kinds of ballots actively trying to limit individual freedom based on religious beliefs?

Because some religious people are douchebags. They hardly stand as representatives of all religious people.

And certainly every group has douchebags. My argument is that the religious type are far more dangerous because they wield this power of ultimate judgment. And yes, they are using it.

Quote:
There are quite a number of ballot measures that an atheist would view as common sense, but that a religious person would view as restricting the expression of their religion. One that comes to mind, though I don't agree the school in question, is a catholic school that has an insurance policy that refuses to provide contraceptives.

That is not removing anyone's right to be religious.

Quote:
In any case, all of the friction between atheists and religious types is just another divisive wedge issue invented by TPTB.

Hardly. There is an active effort being made to impose religious beliefs through the law. Those doing it aren't even trying to hide it.

Of course, there are all kinds of decent religious normal people being decent normal people without imposing their beliefs on everyone. I am not talking about them. I'm talking about the assholes who abuse their power. They are far more dangerous on the religious side than the atheist.

Quote:
I restate my opinion that personal and religious beliefs do not matter except to the person having them.

This is ridiculous. The gay person denied rights to be the legal partner of their lover sure as hell is concerned with the religious beliefs of the asshat Tea Party politician who is actively working to deny those rights.

Of course the beliefs that drive oppressors matter to the oppressed. What world do you live in? I wish it was the real one! Meaning - I wish that, in the real world, other people's beliefs didn't put limits on my life.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:29 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
Jesus resurrected ... High Concept Story

I suppose it was very important for His followers
to see the great rock moved and Jesus come walking
out of the cave.

It was miraculous.

Cecil B. DeMille was better at telling stories than my Sunday School teacher, clearly.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:47 PM

Back to the point of the thread: I guess I have had events, though my enlightenment was more about religious people than about God.

There was a beautiful young man in my college English class, a real Adonis with curly blond hair, brilliant blue eyes, and the body of a swimmer (which he was.) I made eyes a bit. After class one day he asked if I wanted to join his prayer group. He went on at some length and then asked if the Savior Jesus lived in my heart. The brilliant blue eyes took on a scary sheen.

A few years later I was dating a man who was well-traveled and interesting. One night post coitus (which seemed ironic) he told me that there was absolutely no way he could even remotely consider the possibility that God might be a woman. Talk about God as a human-created authority figure! He had no idea why I might find that offensive. Hmm. This was part of a discussion of his deep concerns that he was so Catholic (I hadn't known this about him) and I was basically a godless heathen (which I knew very well) and he was worried about how we'd raise our children. Dude - we'd been dating a month and I was about to leave town for grad school! Children? WTF?

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:49 PM

Quote:
My argument is that the religious type are far more dangerous because they wield this power of ultimate judgment. And yes, they are using it.

I do not understand what this means.

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That is not removing anyone's right to be religious.

Actually it is an affront to the individual beliefs of the school in question, telling them that they have to step into the 21st century and not make all women stand in the kitchen pregnant and barefoot. But it is not likely you would see it that way.

Similarly, most of you think that we should tell Muslims not to cover up their women. Yet both are examples of secular oppression of religious belief - it's difficult to tell because the flip side of the coin is oppression of women.

Neither method is actually very correct.

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There is an active effort being made to impose religious beliefs through the law. Those doing it aren't even trying to hide it.

There is an active effort to replace religious beliefs with secular socially acceptable ideas as well.

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I'm talking about the assholes who abuse their power. They are far more dangerous on the religious side than the atheist.

Authoritarians of any stripe are dangerous. To rank them is to ask which is worse, the Taliban or Stalin?

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I wish it was the real one! Meaning - I wish that, in the real world, other people's beliefs didn't put limits on my life.

Interesting. You believe I do not live in the real world because I see two sides of a coin?

I assure you, I live in the real world, as do you. It is our perspectives that are different. Not our reality.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 1:52 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:

Clearly you don't believe in Pizza Hut because you discovered pizza to be made of dough, sauce, and cheese.
H

No, the point is that I don't believe in god b/c the bible said to. And while you didn't SAY it directly, you alluded to it here: "... After all...'let there be light' was kinda how God got started. " And you know that happened ... how? You were there? Or just maybe b/c the bible told you so?

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 2:01 PM

Hm. I apologize, Mal4Prez. It occurs to me that my effort to dissuade you from stereotyping christians is both misguided, not in the spirit of the thread, and hypocritical. I will go back to having no opinion on any of your beliefs.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 2:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a creator, accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge."

This was addressed already, but I'll chip in. The claim is that reason and observation are sufficient to determine there is a creator. But they're not b/c that's an illusion of the human experience. If we think the universe is LIKE a house that doesn't come into being except through a builder, and we think that the creator is LIKE a person, then the universe couldn’t have come into being except through the agency of some already-existing super-contractor with really awesome tools.

But there's no reason to think the universe is like a house, or that the creator (if one exists) is like a person. It's only our biases about how we work and what we do that lead us to think so.

Personally, I like to think of the universe as a dance of energies. Where they reach a harmonic node, you get an electron - or a proton - or gravity. Where they don't - nothing, but the potential is there. Part wave, part particle. And so you get an existence that's here and there, here and gone, always dancing. It's fanciful, I know, but I like it.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 2:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
My argument is that the religious type are far more dangerous because they wield this power of ultimate judgment. And yes, they are using it.

I do not understand what this means.

Religion can judge people's souls, try to convince them that they will go to hell if they don't toe the line. That is incredible power to manipulate and victimize hoards of people. A branch of my family are Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses. I have seen what happens to children of those families who don't fall in line. I have never heard of that kind of shameless spiritual manipulation being done to kids from atheist families who go religious.

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That is not removing anyone's right to be religious.

Actually it is an affront to the individual beliefs of the school in question, telling them that they have to step into the 21st century and not make all women stand in the kitchen pregnant and barefoot. But it is not likely you would see it that way.

Oh, like if I stopped someone from attacking me I might offend them, so I should let them attack me? You know that saying about how your right to swing your fist ends at my nose? It applies. If people are offended that they can't oppress other people, I don't give a shit. It's like those who think gay marriage somehow damages their hetero marriage. That's their problem to get over. No group has a fundamental right to victimize others.

I can see that we just might not agree about this.

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Similarly, most of you think that we should tell Muslims not to cover up their women. Yet both are examples of secular oppression of religious belief - it's difficult to tell because the flip side of the coin is oppression of women.

Most of *you*? Who are you clumping me with, you who hates clumping? It's hard to not generalize, ain't it?

Because you're wrong. If a woman wants to cover up, I think she should. I do wish it was her choice, but I am adamantly against going into any country and forcing them to change. Including forcing Islam women to be free. If they ask, we should be ready help, but they need to make the decision themselves.

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There is an active effort to replace religious beliefs with secular socially acceptable ideas as well.

Examples? Cause I don't think so. There certainly is an attempt to protect those who do not wish to live within the confines of religion, but no one is stopping folks from worshiping whatever they want.

Really, show me any large movement in the country today that would force anyone to change their OWN religious beliefs as practiced in their OWN lives. Stopping them from fucking up other people's lives doesn't count.

Or are you suggesting that oppressors should be allowed to oppress, because stopping them might hurt their feelings?

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Authoritarians of any stripe are dangerous. To rank them is to ask which is worse, the Taliban or Stalin?

Are you saying that modern American atheists such as myself are equivalent to Stalin? If so, you are really really REALLY far off.

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Interesting. You believe I do not live in the real world because I see two sides of a coin?

No. I think you live in a fantasy because you think that "personal and religious beliefs do not matter except to the person having them." As if the religious beliefs of the insane political right have no effect on other people. Please read what you said there again. Maybe you didn't mean it like it sounds, but it sounds pretty naive. Clarify for me if I'm interpreting it wrong.

Hello! The religious right are passing laws that limit the rights of other people based on nothing but religious beliefs! Of course what these whackos believe matters!

BTW: I believe that no one lives in the same reality. Everything we experience is colored by who we are, so when I talk about "your reality" it's not as strong a statement as it might seem.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 2:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Hm. I apologize, Mal4Prez. It occurs to me that my effort to dissuade you from stereotyping christians is both misguided, not in the spirit of the thread, and hypocritical. I will go back to having no opinion on any of your beliefs.

Oh - damn. I was having fun!

You can have opinions all you want. Let's just debate without hating on each other, hey?

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 2:57 PM

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try to convince them that they will go to hell if they don't toe the line. That is incredible power to manipulate and victimize hoards of people.

I have seen hell. I also know it does not exist. I don't understand why my fainting dreams have any bearing on myself being victimized, when I can't go to hell because it does not exist.

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Most of *you*? Who are you clumping me with, you who hates clumping? It's hard to not generalize, ain't it?

That was directed at the board, and based on the reaction people gave me for disliking cartoonist that told Muslims to get their shit together. And in the thread about France banning the burka. I did not know what you specifically thought.

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Or are you suggesting that oppressors should be allowed to oppress, because stopping them might hurt their feelings?

People choose to put on yokes all the time. A catholic chooses to be catholic. IF they don't wish to prescribe to the catholic ideas about contraception, maybe they should decide to stop being catholics.

But I am very much in favour of allowing people to practice both culture and religion. It has no effect on me. It only effects them.

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Hello! The religious right are passing laws that limit the rights of other people based on nothing but religious beliefs! Of course what these whackos believe matters!

Next you'll be telling me that LAWS matter, and that people who are, say, gay, don't ignore laws and live together anyway.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:09 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"And in the thread about France banning the burka."

France also bans the cross, the yarmulke, the tichel, the star of David and other religious attire in their schools. The French constitution is SPECIFICALLY secular in that regard. They're attitude is - you come to our country, you live by our rules. And our rules forbid government support of any religion. OTOH what you do privately (except where it violates criminal law) is of no concern.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Hello! The religious right are passing laws that limit the rights of other people based on nothing but religious beliefs! Of course what these whackos believe matters!

Next you'll be telling me that LAWS matter, and that people who are, say, gay, don't ignore laws and live together anyway.

It's not against the law to live with someone of the same gender. It IS against the law in some places to make end-of-life decisions for a loved one, to inherit their belongings, to pay taxes as a couple etc etc.

I know you've heard all this before, so I'm perplexed that you think laws do not limit freedoms for gay people. Really? Are you really saying that? And for women living in states that have effectively removed abortion as an available option. Do you think it doesn't matter for them? Is it really true that, because these issues don't matter to you personally, you think they matter to no one?

And you claim to be seeing both sides of this?

*scratches head*

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:16 PM

1Kiki, "Anyway, the common thread I get out of these stories is this - there
comes a moment when the childhood stories you've been told and the reality you
know fail to match up. And you have - not a decision - but a fork in the road.
Which way do you end up going?"

When did I decide to think for myself?
When did I learn to want the same for everyone?
Did I ever really learn to respect our differences?

Governments, parents, spouses, religions, cults can all (try to) be con-
trolling and oppose my right to think for myself. My job is to deny them.

There won't be one fork in the road, but many. The Work is ongoing.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Magon's, good questions. I can give you my answers: Adam and Eve's kids, back then the genetics were pure, as in they hadn't gotten rutted up like they would later on, so genetically it wouldn't hurt to marry siblings. Sure it seems grotty now, but back then they probably didn't think anything of it because they hadn't been raised thinking it was grotty. Pharoahs married their siblings, and that was later, and they still did it, and by then they really _should have known better.
Dinosaurs: In Job a few types of dinosaurs are mentioned and described. As for the others I guess it just didn't come up, all you'd need is babies of each species on the ark anyways, you wouldn't need a huge brachiosaur or trisaratops, just little ones to save space, otherwise they'd sink the boat and everyone would be humped.
Solomon, was a king and kings have always gotten away with all kinds of stuff because they are kings. I don't approve of plural marriage, but there's a lot of stuff that goes on in ancient societies that I don't approve of.

Kiki, I don't recall the moment I found out about light and rain making rainbows, it wasn't monumental for me, it made total sense and didn't detract from my beliefs of the symbolism, because the flood is the first time actual rain happened in the Bible, so naturally a new thing would come about as the result of water falling from the sky, called a rainbow, no biggie.

About not doing things decidedly: I can make plans for the future knowing that they may not come to pass, I can plan ahead but still know that things might go differently. That James passage doesn't mean be a doormat and wait for things to come along, it means that we can make plans but ultimately God is in control, so who knows whether their plans will work out, be flexible.

Part two pending

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Continuing on.

I agree with Oonj and Geezer, some of the Atheists out there are militant about their unbelief and they treat it like a religeon. My neighbor is a great example, he believes that anyone who believes in anything is stupid, uneducated, backward, and they need to have sense knocked into them. I do think that if his daughter did ever decide to believe in anything he would have a rutting corinary and might disown her, I'm serious. Certainly not all Atheists are like that, Byte for example is a respectable Atheist, she doesn't care what other people believe, she figures its their right to believe what they choose and doesn't think less of them as people, just that they feel differently than her. Byte, I don't think Oonjerah meant you when she was talking about unreasonable Atheists, for the above reasons. I've never had trouble with you at all in that regard, you are the most reasonable Atheist I know. I often wonder why Atheists are so militant often times, why do they care what I believe anyways, since they don't believe in anything they wouldn't see any cosmic consequences in me believing in something, so why do they care?

Chris a chara, I think you misunderstood your teacher's stickies. The point is that he did just go through the ceiling, thus the angel breaking the Roman seal and rolling back the stone and no body, que presto. So little Chris was right after all.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 3:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I often wonder why Atheists are so militant often times, why do they care what I believe anyways, since they don't believe in anything they wouldn't see any cosmic consequences in me believing in something, so why do they care?

I don't care at all what you do with your own life. Worship what you will, as long as you don't try to legislate your beliefs on me.

Not saying *you* do this, but certainly other religious folks are. It's on the ballots. There's nothing on the ballots trying to stop you from going to the church of your choice. That is the difference.

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 4:04 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:

Chris a chara, I think you misunderstood your teacher's stickies. The point is that he did just go through the ceiling, thus the angel breaking the Roman seal and rolling back the stone and no body, que presto. So little Chris was right after all.

A pox on my Sunday School teacher then!

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Tuesday, November 6, 2012 4:34 PM