REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Prohibition, Inequality take hits

POSTED BY: ANTHONYT
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 16:46
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8852
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Monday, November 12, 2012 7:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Just a side comment on siblings/ cousins having children ...

How I read it goes like this - I think the genetic risk would be dependent on what population they came from. Without thinking about it too hard (if I thought about it more I might find a flaw in this) the risk of bad genetics in the related individuals is the same as the risk in the larger population approximately doubled.

There are groups with very a small founding population and/or genetic isolation in their history (and sometimes in their present) - Ashkenazi Jews, Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, Mormons and others - with frequent genetic problems, where the risk of two related individuals having the same bad genetics would be very high. But for run of the mill mutts like most of us, if the population risk is very low, then the sibling risk would be somewhat higher, but still very low.


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Monday, November 12, 2012 7:58 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Best wishes for them and their new little ones, babies are adorable!

I'm not even going to ask what a zoophile is, I really don't want to know. Also of interest historically the word pedaphile to describe that situation is a newer thing, the term used to be pedarasty, somehow that term got changed.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 12, 2012 8:05 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Pakistan has more in common with your preferred state of affairs than the U.S. with same-sex marriage does. They don't tolerate that yucky homosexual stuff there.


Well... No, probably not. They have first cousin marriage over there, and also 12 year olds marrying forty year olds, and victims marrying rapists.



Hello,

You must be mistaken. That is, if Homosexual Marriage is the slippery slope that leads to such conditions. You can't have the effect without the cause.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Monday, November 12, 2012 8:46 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Yes you can. Stealing candy from the store doesn't "cause" bank robberies at gunpoint. Someone can rob a bank without stealing candy and someone can be a chronic candy stealer without ever trying to rob a bank.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 12, 2012 9:17 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Yes you can. Stealing candy from the store doesn't "cause" bank robberies at gunpoint. Someone can rob a bank without stealing candy and someone can be a chronic candy stealer without ever trying to rob a bank.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya


Hello,

And consenting adults can marry, without it leading to anything except more freedom for consenting adults to enjoy their lives in the way they choose.

No slips, no slopes.

--Anthony



Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:51 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Yes you can. Stealing candy from the store doesn't "cause" bank robberies at gunpoint. Someone can rob a bank without stealing candy and someone can be a chronic candy stealer without ever trying to rob a bank.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya


What the hell are you talking about?

To follow your analogy: you've claimed that children who steal candy may slip further down the slope and bring on a rash of bank robbery. Anthony pointed out that the place with lots of bank robbers has no candy theft whatsoever, hence one cannot lead to the other. That's about as clear cut as it gets.

Sadly, I can't take back the name I called you, not until you prove that you aren't that. Here's your chance. Set aside your biased blindness and LOOK at the evidence.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:25 AM

BYTEMITE


My understanding was that pederasty is prurient interest in little boys, and pedophilia is prepubescent girls or boys. There's also a term for teenagers.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:27 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:

Pakistan has more in common with your preferred state of affairs than the U.S. with same-sex marriage does. They don't tolerate that yucky homosexual stuff there.


Well... No, probably not. They have first cousin marriage over there, and also 12 year olds marrying forty year olds, and victims marrying rapists.



Hello,

You must be mistaken. That is, if Homosexual Marriage is the slippery slope that leads to such conditions. You can't have the effect without the cause.

--Anthony



You called Pakistan an ideal place for a Riona's views on homosexuality, I said it's not because of all the other stuff there she disagrees with. I'm not sure what your argument is.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:35 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Yes you can. Stealing candy from the store doesn't "cause" bank robberies at gunpoint. Someone can rob a bank without stealing candy and someone can be a chronic candy stealer without ever trying to rob a bank.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya


What the hell are you talking about?

To follow your analogy: you've claimed that children who steal candy may slip further down the slope and bring on a rash of bank robbery. Anthony pointed out that the place with lots of bank robbers has no candy theft whatsoever, hence one cannot lead to the other. That's about as clear cut as it gets.

Sadly, I can't take back the name I called you, not until you prove that you aren't that. Here's your chance. Set aside your biased blindness and LOOK at the evidence.


You know, I'm pretty intolerant myself, I don't know why people think intolerant people gotta change to be more acceptable. Intolerance makes the world go round. Important survival instinct.

I honestly do not care what Riona thinks about gay marriage or any of this, she can think whatever she wants about it provided she's not stoning, burning, or hanging people she disagrees with. We all got things we don't tolerate, sometimes irrationally, and I don't hold anyone to any higher standard than I hold anyone else.

I see no difference between her thinking homosexuality is grotty and me thinking every form of sexuality is both repulsive and none of my business. Ultimately what matters is whether we feel we have any right to prevent people from practicing it, and I sure don't, and from what I read it sounds like Riona doesn't either.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:24 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Ultimately what matters is whether we feel we have any right to prevent people from practicing it, and I sure don't, and from what I read it sounds like Riona doesn't either.


Hello,

I agree that neither of you has the 'right' to prevent people from practicing it. But we do discuss and argue politics here, and part of that is in the hopes that when people go into the voting box, where they have the option to make a small influence on the world, that they will choose differently.

I don't think anyone much cares if you or Riona thinks anything is gross.

But they might care a smidge if you or she would choose to limit someone's rights because of that sense of feeling grossed out.

Riona is one of millions of people who share her views. But she's the one right here, right now, talking to us.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Whether a person thinks something is gross does not necessarily have any bearing on how they vote. You don't see me trying to force all the revolting stuff off of television or the internet. And there is a LOT of it, I can tell you that. If I don't like it, I ignore it, and people can do what they want.

I wish gay people could get married, and I wish people would let them adopt. But as someone who will never do either, it's not in me to judge one way or another about people who are for or against. I'm not responsible for what Riona thinks, and ultimately considering where she lives her input one way or another probably won't make much impact against gay rights.

Riona said:

Quote:
Also to be clear, I would NEVER support a backward law that would try to ban same sex relations, that's just whacked, because concentual adults can do whatever they want in their own space on their own time.


Good enough for me.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Whether a person thinks something is gross does not necessarily have any bearing on how they vote. You don't see me trying to force all the revolting stuff off of television or the internet. And there is a LOT of it, I can tell you that. If I don't like it, I ignore it, and people can do what they want.

I wish gay people could get married, and I wish people would let them adopt. But as someone who will never do either, it's not in me to judge one way or another about people who are for or against.

Riona said:

Quote:
Also to be clear, I would NEVER support a backward law that would try to ban same sex relations, that's just whacked, because concentual adults can do whatever they want in their own space on their own time.


Good enough for me.


Hello,

Riona also said she would NOT support same-sex marriage.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:56 AM

BYTEMITE


And I disagree with that, but then, so does almost half the country from last I heard. I'm not gonna be able to reeducate and convince 11 million people. I can't even convince one person. So I just accept that's how she feels and also accept her sharingstuff license as her version of a compromise. At least it's a better idea than the defining marriage versus gay civil union idea, which will lead inherently to inequality.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:04 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I can't even convince one person.


Hello,

Maybe you've never changed one mind, planted one good idea. But I doubt it.

I think you're rather saying you don't want to push your friend, which I understand. I have friends and family who hold bad ideas that would hurt people if put into practice. I'd never want our relationships to be damaged, because I value these people. Fortunately, I can debate with them without jeopardizing our relationship. I can let them know that I love them, but some of their ideas are not okay.

I'm lucky to have that kind of relationship.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:14 AM

BYTEMITE


I tend to do most of my pushing on emails. But I've also discovered it never works. I have at times had to walk away from friends because it became too frustrating, and they'd never listen to me. Or because of the knives in my back, but that's a whole 'nother thing.

It's more I just don't see the point in challenging Riona for how she was raised. I don't see that it would accomplish anything, and I also don't think that she would impact gay rights in her area negatively.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 6:21 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
It's more I just don't see the point in challenging Riona for how she was raised.


Hello,

When I argue against someone like Mr. Raptor, it's mostly for the purposes of publicly refuting his hateful ideas, so that they are less likely to catch on with gullible, impressionable minds.

When I argue with someone like Riona, it's for different reasons. She is so compassionate and caring. Arguing with her isn't just about refuting her ideas in public. It's about faith that she's more than just a programmed computer. She can grow.

--Anthony




Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Hmm. Maybe.

I've never really argued with AURaptor either, for similar reasons. Same with Wulf.

...>_> In fairness, I don't even read slash fic. Had a bad experience once in highschool, one of my friends was into yaoi, wrote some sort of guy x guy bastard boyfriend slave thing, and then asked me to read it without giving me a heads up about the explicit content.

That... Didn't go over well... Since then, I guess I've kinda avoided those pairings. Mostly. Kinda? *BLATANT LIES* Okay, so maybe I ship a couple of guys and a couple of girls together here on the boards, but that's neither here nor there, and it also doesn't count. What? SHUSH. SHOOOSH.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:14 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

It's more I just don't see the point in challenging Riona for how she was raised. I don't see that it would accomplish anything, and I also don't think that she would impact gay rights in her area negatively.


Lots of people are raised with all kinds of backwards notions and prejudices. And such prejudice tends to perpetuate if they are not challenged.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:19 AM

BYTEMITE


It's the prettiest wedding. They both wear tuxedos, and then try to blow each other up. And the dresses on the other couple are FANTASTIC.

I can't help it. :(

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:21 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

It's more I just don't see the point in challenging Riona for how she was raised. I don't see that it would accomplish anything, and I also don't think that she would impact gay rights in her area negatively.


Lots of people are raised with all kinds of backwards notions and prejudices. And such prejudice tends to perpetuate if they are not challenged.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"


Kinda tends to perpetuate even if it is challenged. I stand by my "so long as they're not stoning burning or hanging people" rule.

Or gassing people. That one is ALSO out.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:42 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Anthony, I think you are confused. And I believe Kiki can speak with more knowledge on this than I can. Sibling marriage is NOT a good idea.


Hello,

No, it's not a good idea. Though I assume you are referring to them making offspring, and not getting married. Assuming you have a genetic concern?

Because people can have sex and children without getting married, and people can get married without having children.

And in neither case is it any of my damn business. I'm not prepared to authorize the government to genetically screen applicants for marriage.

--Anthony


Sorry for the late reply, busy busy.

My real objection to it is with willing consent. How can someone who hasn't even gone through puberty, who has no interest in sex, give willing consent? To oversimplify things; how can a farmer's ewe say she really wants a good rogering from the fieldhand? Or that woman who is existing in a vegetative state, how can she say that she wants to play hide the salami with the 3rd shift nurse aid at her nursing home? A child is slightly different in that they possess the potential to someday be able to give their consent.

I don't know when that is. But I'm going to indulge in some "truthiness" and say that sex at too young of an age has the potential to damage children. Psychologically and certainly physically.

Adult kids, my feelings are "ewww", but rock on.

There are a few cases where government might need to cross the threshold of your front door. But there's no excuse for government to be in the bedroom.

I never suggested genetic screening. Sure, there's a few cases of unintentional brother/sister marriages. Even one I read about recently that was father/daughter. But I think those are outliers, certainly not mainstream enough to require the "sledgehammer on fly" approach of government.


Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:03 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Anthony, I think you are confused. And I believe Kiki can speak with more knowledge on this than I can. Sibling marriage is NOT a good idea.


Hello,

No, it's not a good idea. Though I assume you are referring to them making offspring, and not getting married. Assuming you have a genetic concern?

Because people can have sex and children without getting married, and people can get married without having children.

And in neither case is it any of my damn business. I'm not prepared to authorize the government to genetically screen applicants for marriage.

--Anthony


Sorry for the late reply, busy busy.

My real objection to it is with willing consent. How can someone who hasn't even gone through puberty, who has no interest in sex, give willing consent? To oversimplify things; how can a farmer's ewe say she really wants a good rogering from the fieldhand? Or that woman who is existing in a vegetative state, how can she say that she wants to play hide the salami with the 3rd shift nurse aid at her nursing home? A child is slightly different in that they possess the potential to someday be able to give their consent.

I don't know when that is. But I'm going to indulge in some "truthiness" and say that sex at too young of an age has the potential to damage children. Psychologically and certainly physically.

Adult kids, my feelings are "ewww", but rock on.

There are a few cases where government might need to cross the threshold of your front door. But there's no excuse for government to be in the bedroom.

I never suggested genetic screening. Sure, there's a few cases of unintentional brother/sister marriages. Even one I read about recently that was father/daughter. But I think those are outliers, certainly not mainstream enough to require the "sledgehammer on fly" approach of government.


Kwindbago, hot air and angry electrons


Hello,

I'm not clear on what you are actually addressing here. There seems to be a lot of material in your response about sex and children.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:32 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Cavetroll, "My real objection to it is with willing consent.
How can someone who hasn't even gone through puberty, who
has no interest in sex, give willing consent?"

I prob'ly I have met people who didn't have any interest in sex
until they reached puberty. Indeed, some folks aren't interested
in it after puberty.

The majority of kids I have known were fascinated with sex long
years before puberty. Includes actively persuing opportunites to
read about it, watch it, talk about it, and do it.

I suspect most kids would like to be way more open about sex than
they are allowed to be. Their big problem is that we, the adults,
turn a blind eye and refuse to teach them 1. the biology, 2. accep-
tance of their sexuality, 3. responsible attitudes about it (= "Yeah,
I know you're horny. But don't do anything about it").

Indeed, we live in a place/time where that openness would be legally
equated with molestation.


=========================

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:41 AM

BYTEMITE


That would jive with how my friends used to act at young ages. They happened to be better informed than most, and had better means to deal with such issues... and resist transgressors. But other children are less informed. It will be tricky to give them the information they need, and only the information they need, without crossing unacceptable lines. But it also seems true that may need to happen.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 11:44 AM

OONJERAH


Bytemite: "It will be tricky to give them the information they
need, and only the information they need, without crossing
unacceptable lines."


Yes, it sure is.

I was 5, best I can remember.

I was walking to or from my playmate's house & was just across
the street from it, on the field about 3 or 4' off the road.
A car with 2 men in it pulled up and stopped beside me. The
driver's window was open and he looked at me for a while just
grinning. I had no idea what was up with him but felt embarrassed
by his stare.

Then they drove away. Had my playmate's Mom come out toward
the road and made herself known? I don't know, but she called my
Mom right away.

I don't recall my Mom's talk about it. Usually, if she had something
to say, she'd go on and on. This was brief. I think she told me
I should avoid strangers and never ever get in the car with one.

Did she say why? No, not a hint. Did she say they might have been
kidnappers? Maybe.

=========================

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 1:59 PM

BYTEMITE


Cavetroll: Sometimes I wonder. All of my friends had really rocky romantic relationships when they were teenagers, part of me thinks they had no idea what they were doing. Heck, I'm not sure people know what the heck they're doing in relationships or with pregnancy past 21, 30, 40 and onward.

And then there's the possible birth mortality increase for really young ages, 11 to 13. Then the incest stuff mentioned, sometimes I wonder if my family isn't really inbred because of the weird deformities this generation has been having with their kids. And they're all mormon, and almost everyone in the Salt Lake Valley is related to each other from pioneer days due to all the polygamy.

So some of this stuff just isn't a good idea. Romance and relationships in general are actually terrible ideas, and all of it is clearly massively stressful. I guess people will continue to mess around with other people though. I guess I don't have anything useful to say about any of it.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Riona, I just don't get you. Where is a slippery slope? Who is saying that legalizing gay marriage has ANYTHING to do with marrying 12 year olds?

You sure are grouping the two issues together. You have made it very clear that you were serious when you predicted this "slippery slope". Yes, you did, and that means that YOU are the one conflating the two situations. Sure, you say you know they are different, but at the same time you believe that some mysterious big scary "they" out there will take gay marriage rights as a stepping stone to 12 year old marriage rights.

OMG! Please, please think about this forward and backward and left and right until you GROK it good: you are not the only one in the universe who can tell sex/marriage between consenting adults from every other conceivable situation that does not involve two consenting adults. It actually is not very hard. 12 year getting married: not a consenting adult, so no go. See? Done! No slippery slope at all.

I find this incredibly frustrating, that gay rights opponents think that there's some "they" out there who are so stupid that "they" can't tell two consenting men from a man and a dog or a man and a little girl. Jesus. Really?



Late to the party, and just catching up, but M4P pretty much says it for me.

I don't really care what you think is "grotty", whatever that means. Personally, I think man-on-man sex is pretty gross, too. I don't tend to spend a lot of my time thinking about it, though, unlike so many Republicans...

The point is, it doesn't matter if I think something's gross or weird; those aren't legal justifications for outlawing something. "It creeps me out and kills my boner" isn't a valid legal defense anywhere that I've ever heard.

Comparing what two consenting adults do to sex with animals or sex with children - who cannot consent at all - is just the height of idiocy and desperation.

Enlightenment comes slowly, but it does come. Realizing that your feelings and prejudices aren't the whole world's is one step towards enlightenment.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:06 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Hi Oonj, I did really compose that line, I'm way too lazy to go look up quotes, I find it unnecessary and tiresome, so I really did write that line, it doesn't seem monumental though so I'm sure someone else has said it, probably with the same words at some point.

Kiki, everything you said there made total sense, and I still don't know why some things are 21, if you're old enough to go fight a war then you should be able to vote, rut with others, drink, enter legal agreements/contracts and all other legally allowed things.

Mal4, I just know that six months ago when we were talking about this no one was announcing being for sibling marriage being allowed, now all of a sudden someone is talking about that, so something is happening. But even sibling marriage, yucky as it may be, is not anywhere as bad as 12 year olds getting married, its good we all agree that 12 year olds getting married isn't ever okay and that none of us will ever support that idea, no matter what others say.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



You say we all agree that 12 year olds getting married "isn't ever okay", but you fail to realize that in the not-too-distant past it WAS considered okay.

I'm glad we've moved past that and hope we never again think that that's okay, but we as a species actually did used to think that, so saying it "isn't ever okay" turns a blind eye to our own past.




"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:


I operate under the principle of "so long as no one person or creature is getting hurt and I don't have to see or hear it".



You might want to add an "unwillingly" in there, since BDSM is quite a large group of people. Again, *I* don't get it, but just because it's not my kink doesn't mean I think it should be outlawed.

Just yesterday I was talking to a girl who said she likes to be slapped in the face during sex. I didn't have a goddam thing to say to her about that other than "I'm so glad I'm not single."



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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:18 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Yes you can. Stealing candy from the store doesn't "cause" bank robberies at gunpoint. Someone can rob a bank without stealing candy and someone can be a chronic candy stealer without ever trying to rob a bank.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya


Hello,

And consenting adults can marry, without it leading to anything except more freedom for consenting adults to enjoy their lives in the way they choose.

No slips, no slopes.

--Anthony






Well played, sir. Well played indeed.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:22 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Mal4, I don't recall what you called me, it was so a couple of days ago and I don't feel like going back and looking further up the thread, I'm consumately lazy after all.

The adoption thing doesn't bother me, there are lots of kids out there who need loving families and a safe environment to grow up in, if a family with same sexed parents can provide that then that's fine with me.

I think I'll strike civil unions from my options list, because "seperate but equal" does have a sour taste to it. Lets stick with the government taking all talk of "marriage" out of legal agreements and they can call it legal comradery" or some such and it can include any two adults who want to be connected regardless of their situation and what type of connection that is. Marriage could just be something you engage in on your own time.

And you guys must know that I would never burn, stone, or gas anyone or endorce such behavior. If the country legalizes same sex marriage I won't do anything about it, it won't be what I think is right but I won't do anything to stop it, if the people decide then it is what it is.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:26 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
And I disagree with that, but then, so does almost half the country from last I heard. I'm not gonna be able to reeducate and convince 11 million people. I can't even convince one person. So I just accept that's how she feels and also accept her sharingstuff license as her version of a compromise. At least it's a better idea than the defining marriage versus gay civil union idea, which will lead inherently to inequality.



You don't have to convince 11 million people. You don't even have to convince one. But sometimes, just by talking about the issues from all sides, just by questioning your own prejudices and seeing those of others, you can start to learn, to grow... and then to convince yourself.

I can't convince you, or anyone. I don't have to. I can only try to open your mind a little bit to the realities, and try to help you examine things you're uncomfortable talking about or thinking about. And from there, you can convince yourself. That's all anyone can ask, of you or of others.

I'm not saying I've never HAD prejudices; I'm just saying that they rarely survive close inspection and introspection. And often, we cannot question our own beliefs until others question them first.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:32 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

It's more I just don't see the point in challenging Riona for how she was raised. I don't see that it would accomplish anything, and I also don't think that she would impact gay rights in her area negatively.


Lots of people are raised with all kinds of backwards notions and prejudices. And such prejudice tends to perpetuate if they are not challenged.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"


Kinda tends to perpetuate even if it is challenged. I stand by my "so long as they're not stoning burning or hanging people" rule.

Or gassing people. That one is ALSO out.



Sure, people can believe that some "other" is gross, or inferior, or genetically not equal. They have that right. And if I hear them speak out about it, I also have the right to use my free speech to challenge theirs.


If you heard one of your friends berating black people as abominations not deserving of the rights of "normal people", would you just shrug it off and say it's just their upbringing, or would you challenge their beliefs?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:35 PM

BYTEMITE


My parents say stuff like that, from their comments about a racial totem pole to how trashy white girls are if they date black guys. There's really no changing it. I've tried, and it never works.

I try to amuse myself with the fact that bottom of the totem pole doesn't have the same meaning to the Tlingit as it does to europeans - the bottom of the totem pole is actually the most important position to them.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 2:39 PM

BYTEMITE


If it's willing, I don't consider it being hurt. Unless it's someone agreeing to being eaten or something. That's crazy nuts. Clearly anyone agreeing to that probably isn't right in the head and can't consent to anything. Apparently it happens?

So many things I just don't want to know. Just don't want to know. Damn internet. :(

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Or gassing people. That one is ALSO out.

Not a big fan of Taco Bell, then ?


Y'all have left me nothing to say, other than throwing amusing subtext around, which reminds me, I gotta dig up two bits of stuff for you Byte, but I'll have to dredge the deep archives for that, I ain't written nothing in like forever.

-F

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:58 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Not a big fan of Taco Bell, then ?

Y'all have left me nothing to say, other than throwing amusing subtext around, which reminds me, I gotta dig up two bits of stuff for you Byte, but I'll have to dredge the deep archives for that


o.o

Okay I'm terrified now. It's probably what I have coming for defending Riona here, but, trepidation is an adequate description.

I'm going to get trolled so hard.

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:23 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Oonjerah: "great grandma Martha m 1861, age 14, to be
15 in less than a month,"

Quote Riona: "They'll use the above point about how people
used to marry at 14 so why not now? Just because something
used to be allowed doesn't mean its okay

"They used to do it" is the worst argument I've heard for
anything in a long long time. I'm rather apalled that anyone
would use that argument for justifying anything."

Quote Kwicko: "You say we all agree that 12 year olds get-
ting married "isn't ever okay", but you fail to realize that
in the not-too-distant past it WAS considered okay.

"I'm glad we've moved past that and hope we never again think
that that's okay, but we as a species actually did used to think
that, so saying it "isn't ever okay" turns a blind eye to our
own past."

Time for History Lesson.

Up until about 1900, industrialized countries such as the USA
still had about 90% of their population living on farms. Less
developed countries, of course, had more.

One implication of this is: Probably all of us are descended
from a long line of farmers.
______________________________________

A Farmer's life is absolutely Real, it is realer than any other
Life style that I know.
If the farmer doesn't get up early every morning all of his life
and do the daily farm chores, his crops will fail. If they fail
totally, he & his family will have no food to eat; even a partial
failure will mean No income from crop sales. That would be incon-
venient, but not fatal. It would mean that until a new crop comes
in the following year, he cannot buy the luxuries that his farm
can't produce: coffee, tea, sugar, salt, & manufactured items
such as sewing needles, a new axe head, buckles to repair an
old harness.

Of necessity, successful farmers are the most realistic & practical
people in the world. The rules for survival that centuries have
proven necessary are deeply ingrained in the whole community.

The young farmer works very hard in his late teens; he has made
agreements with his father & perhaps other men of the town to work
extra for them to earn cashy money. After a year or two of this
extra work, he can afford to file a claim on 60 acres of undeveloped
prime land. He gets the deed and now the real work begins. He has
to build the farm: house, barn, sheds, fences, maybe a water tower
or a windmill. But in this, no doubt his dad, brothers & friends show
up quite often to help out.

By the time he is 20, his farm is producing and he is now ready to
marry. He may have wanted to marry sooner, 'cause Wow! His girl
friend is such a fox and so very special. She lives within half a mile
of him; & she is 14. He once had a eye for a girl 2 years older, but
another feller already claimed her.

He could not easily marry a girl sooner, because to get the approval
of the community and the girl's father, he had prove that he could
support a wife by owning a producing farm. He had to be "a man full
grown."

Why Marry So Young?
No one asked, but I'll tell you the reasons I think they had.

1. Surname, family pride, preserving your line. The farmer wants kids.

People were very healthy in them days and often lived to be 90 or so.
But that was mostly luck. Before good medicine, there were a lot of
ways to die young, primarily disease and accidents. Overwork sometimes
took them out. Also childbirth for women.
That's why the average life expentancy then was 40's for men and 30's
for women, but if you made it past 60, you might seem to go on forever.

No One took it for granted that they would live long. They wanted to
start a family as soon as possible and have as many children as they
could.

2. Adult men outnumbered adult women. While our young farmer is all
but engaged to the 14-year-old beauty aforementioned, he is well aware
that she has other suitors. "Faint heart never won faire maiden." As
soon as possible, he proposes to he girl and when she says, "Yes," he
then asks the permission of her father. The father agrees saying, "You
can marry after a 6 months' betrothal." In some cases, they would go to
the local Notary and draw up a formal contract for the marriage.

After the marriage came a life of toil; they expected nothing less.
Women usually got married young in those days because it was customary
and had worked well for centuries.

I, for one, am glad we don't have to do it that way anymore.


=========================

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:46 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I fully agknowledge that it was done that way for a long time. Some "old fashioned" things are things I like, but some aren't and this is one of the ones I don't like or think is okay. I love history and learning about it, but I don't have to support everything that went on to understand it.

Further historical tidbit: In old Eire, people were granted legal autonomy when they reached the "age of choice", 14 for girls and 17 for boys. At this time one could enter into legal contracts, set up one's own household, marry, and if one committed a crime one would be tried as an adult. I don't think this is fair because the age is different and that doesn't seem good to me. AT least 17 is nearly grown, but I see 14 as still young.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 7:51 PM

OONJERAH



A 14-year-old Farm Girl is far more mature
than a 14-year-old Valley Girl.


=========================

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:02 PM

OONJERAH



Grotty (Brit slang; root: grotesque)
1. very unpleasant; miserable
2. unpleasant, nasty, or unattractive
3. of poor quality or in bad condition; unsatisfactory or useless



=========================

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Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:59 PM

SHINYGOODGUY


Here's what I fail to understand:

People say they don't want government to interfere or dictate who should be able to marry, but..........

Religion, or better put, religious dogma has every right to interfere and dictate.

Isn't that still interference? And what if I don't believe in that religion?
Why should one free man tell another whom they should be allowed to marry?
Plus, I have heard evangelists say that they want Bush to win, back in 2000, so they could have influence over the country's path; namely keeping those damn "hippies" from ruining the country.

Well, isn't that contradictory. They wanted someone in the government to dictate to the country religious doctrine.

So which is it to be?

Now, I get it. This is where the 1000 Years of Darkness comes in. I feel as though a great weight has been lifted. I can see clearly now.


SGG

have you noticed that Bush has been re-elected and there has been little talk of the Constitutional Admendment to ban Gay marriage that Bush promised to the Religious Right? His agenda is to make as much money as he can for the elite of this country, to hell with the middle class and the poor. Bush is thumbing his nose at the Religious Right who got him re-elected.
-Gleaned from Freedomlist.com Feb 2005


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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 2:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quoth Oonj: "1. Surname, family pride, preserving your line. The farmer wants kids. "


Also, don't forget child mortality and economies of scale. It was pretty common to lose one or more child before they hit adolescence, to more kids = better chances to carry on the family name. Plus, more kids = more help around the farm = more ability to GROW the family farm business and expand landholdings, because there would be ample hands to help manage the extra work.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 4:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Here's what I fail to understand:

People say they don't want government to interfere or dictate who should be able to marry, but..........

Religion, or better put, religious dogma has every right to interfere and dictate.

Isn't that still interference? And what if I don't believe in that religion?
Why should one free man tell another whom they should be allowed to marry?


That is why BOTH the state and the churches should be able to issue marriage licenses, as both are a representative contract created by the community - however, it also means that requirements for marriage licenses issued by the state and ones from the religion should be separate. Marriages that a religion doesn't approve of can still be officiated by the state, as necessary due to the evolving social climate, and because religions are very slow to change.

This way government does not impose on religion, and religion does not impose on government. This is the best solution I can come up with.

Or, as it's been proposed before, we should get rid of marriage altogether. Because one way or another someone is determining who lives, partners, and reproduces with whom. But for now, people seem to find value in the practice. Incomprehensible though that is.

Quote:
Now, I get it. This is where the 1000 Years of Darkness comes in. I feel as though a great weight has been lifted. I can see clearly now.


Churches still officiated over marriages during the renaissance. It's hardly all been dark ages, and the dark ages had very little to do with church doctrine refusing to marry some people.

Let's not make offensive accusations about the motivations of religious people. As an atheist I've been on the receiving end of that more than enough myself, and I can safely say that it does not improve the conversation.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:43 AM

OONJERAH


Quote Kwicko: "Also, don't forget child mortality and
economies of scale. It was pretty common to lose one or
more child before they hit adolescence

I don't forget child mortality at all, just as I don't
forget wife mortality. It was a long post for me & skipped
a few details.*

And yes, kids were a big asset to the farming economy, because
they could and did work. In the censuses of the 19th century,
I generally find kids under age 16 listed as "at school." But
those kids worked just as hard as the older ones after school.

If the small pox was running thru the community, it would
take out a few white adults, a lot of kids, a lot of Indians.

What else is famous? Typhoid fever?

One family I read about lost all 5 of their children to a
winter flu. But if she was 16 when they married & their
kids came 2 years apart, maybe the farm wife was 25-30
when they buried 5 kids. She will be fertile for another
20 years at least, so they can start a new family. (After
they move to sunny California.)

People didn't take anything for granted back then except
the sun would still come up in the East, death & taxes.
People now can't understand how they thought. Unless we
read their diaries.

*One thing I failed to cover above was the Shotgun Wedding.
They had to get married; she had a bun in the oven. I found
stats on many families while I was OCD about genealogy. I
admit that I didn't always calculate if the 1st child was born
9 months or more after the wedding. But I did whenever I
thought of it. I never found a bun in the oven.


=========================

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:48 PM

MAL4PREZ


(I'm way behind on the thread and not likely catch up soon, but here's a start...)

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Whether a person thinks something is gross does not necessarily have any bearing on how they vote.
I don't care who thinks what is gross. Why do you even bring that up? It's so not the point. Riona can be quicked by fags all day, I don't care. But that is not what's being said here.

I have serious problems with someone trying to take over the definition of "marriage" and refuse to share it. I have problems with someone saying that gay marriage is IN ANY WAY related to a kind of victimization which is completely base and disgusting. I take that pretty damned personally, and I ain't telling you why though I bet you can guess.


Quote:
Riona said:

Quote:
Also to be clear, I would NEVER support a backward law that would try to ban same sex relations, that's just whacked, because concentual adults can do whatever they want in their own space on their own time.


Good enough for me.


NOT good enough for me - see the underlined word. Did you notice that? She is kindly giving her blessing for those gays to have "relations" while still wanting to refuse them the right to call that relation marriage. No one has the right to do that.

I'm sure Riona is a lovely, non-offensize enough person in RL, and yes she ought to share her views all day and night. But please don't start with that stuff about how I'm trying to silence her or something. I can share my views too. I have a right to disagree and to explain my reasons why, and if those reasons bring her (and you) up short then maybe there's a reason.

I may not change Riona's mind (or yours), but frankly I don't care if I do. I feel it's my job to speak up when I see bias, even if I step on the toes of the biased. If that bothers you, hey - scroll bar. No hard feelings.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:51 PM

BYTEMITE


Huh? I'm for gay marriage.

You'll also have to demonstrate for me where exactly I demanded people shut up. The only thing I can think of was the shoosh, but that was a joke about my not-so-secret-slightly-embarrassing board shipping, not about discussing gay marriage.

I am not exactly sure what is happening here.

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:32 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Huh? I'm for gay marriage.

You'll also have to demonstrate for me where exactly I demanded people shut up. The only thing I can think of was the shoosh, but that was a joke about my not-so-secret-slightly-embarrassing board shipping, not about discussing gay marriage.

I am not exactly sure what is happening here.
I'm way behind, having lost my internet to a passing truck that was too tall for my wires. :(

Way up this page, there seemed to be a suggestion that I was being intolerant of Riona (which is partly true) and not allowing her to think her own thoughts (which is not). You didn't tell anyone to shut up, and I never suggested you did. But you did defend Riona's right to independence, which means you thought it was threatened.

You said: "she can think whatever she wants about it provided she's not stoning, burning, or hanging people she disagrees with" To me, this is way off the track. I am not telling her what to think. I am telling her what rights I will fight to defend if anyone tries to take them away: namely, the rights of gays to call themselves MARRIED if they damn well please. That, she has very clearly spoken against.

Now, Byte, how come I always end up arguing with you when it's someone else I disagree with?

(And sorry if I don't reply soon - I want to go home, though I have no internet there. Damn utility trucks and their too-erect equipment. )

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:43 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:
Damn utility trucks and their too-erect equipment. )


Hello,

If only they had conscious control... ;-)

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Wednesday, November 14, 2012 1:46 PM

BYTEMITE


No no. *I'm* intolerant. I just happen to support gay marriage despite said intolerance.

Though possibly a better term would be puritanical?

Quote:
To me, this is way off the track. I am not telling her what to think.


I didn't say you were? It looks like? I was more describing what I think and feel, it does not matter to me what she thinks so long as she's not killing people over it.

I was not saying that you weren't letting her think, I was more saying you are concerned about what she thinks.

Quote:
That, she has very clearly spoken against.


Hmm. I'm not really sure what she's said anymore. I do know that she seemed to agree that calling gay marriage something besides gay marriage would lead to inequality, then mentioned again her opinion about doing away with all marriages in favour of something with the benefits of marriage that is not dependent upon romantic or sexual relationships, but which includes it and would therefore include homosexuality. To me that is the same as supporting gay marriage, only better.

As such, I see Riona's opinions as similar to mine. Although I'm okay if people decide not to extend marriage benefits to good friends/family and just accepted gay marriage.

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