REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Blame Wimpy for Slow U.S. Response to Climate Change

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, November 25, 2012 05:38
SHORT URL:
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Monday, November 19, 2012 5:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This puts in words something I've long believed as being behind the resistance to acknowledging climate change:
Quote:

Part of it is also just human psychology. We live in the present, not the future, so why don’t I just take that dollar now, thank you. As J. Wellington Wimpy -- yup, Popeye's friend -- expresses the problem, "I'd gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today." When he’s staring at a lightly charred, grease-oozing meat patty wedged into a bun, Tuesday sounds as agreeable as anything because it’s practically synonymous with “never.”

The problem with the live-now-pay-later approach is that there are many things dollars can't buy when they're gone, such as Arctic ice caps, biodiversity, pre-industrial ocean chemistry or historic sea levels. Now, don’t get me wrong. Human communities are adaptable. That’s how we walked out of Africa and colonized the world. But there’s an important disconnect here that warrants attention, too. People try to adapt once an event has occurred; beginning to adapt before events occur, even predictable events, is not always our strong suit.

I bet the policy professionals and scientists who ponder climate change adaptation spend little if any time with investors and traders whose livelihoods rise or fall on the spread between company estimates and earnings. There’s a yawning chasm between how much tolerance companies and investors have for blips in performance, which is to say not much, and the large-scale threats to life and property in years and decades ahead, which as far as anybody knows could be considerable. I’d gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

The world has warmed about 0.8 degrees Celsius since 1900. To the extent that scientists can characterize a world 2 degrees C hotter, 3 degrees C hotter or 4 degrees C hotter, it's not one that's likely to have water, ice, coasts and soils in places we like them. "There is now little to no chance of maintaining the rise in global mean surface temperature at below 2 degrees C, despite repeated high-level statements to the contrary," Kevin Anderson, of the University of Manchester, and Alice Bows, of the University of East Anglia, wrote in a 2011 issue of Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society: A devoted to research about extreme climate change. They also note that scientists think climate impacts expected from a 2 degree C rise will be worse than they thought just a few years ago. International policymakers have generally accepted two degrees as a rough estimate of the upper bounds of acceptable climate change: It might not be.

Obama’s comments drew much attention yesterday, and if (if) the White House and legislators are able to agree on a climate policy, it would change the conversation nationally and globally. A tax on carbon pollution is receiving renewed attention, having been dismissed by climate policy advocates as too weak in 2009-2010 when Democrats tried and failed to move a cap-and-trade bill through the Senate.

U.S. federal policy is important, but the attention it receives often obscures productive experiments going on in California, which held its first auction of carbon pollution permits yesterday; in the European Union, where the bloc's seven-year-old emissions trading system is undergoing a mid-course correction; in South Korea, which will test a carbon-trading system next year; in Australia, Mexico, Canada, China and elsewhere. Policy experiments such as these are intriguing to watch unfold, particularly where they might achieve lasting emissions reductions. Also, it's worth pointing out the U.S. has seen dramatic increases in solar power efficiency and decreases in coal use despite the absence of a national carbon policy.

Federal officials can monitor these initiatives as they progress. As they do, they might also mind the gap between climate scenarios projected from our business-as-usual energy economy and from safer pathways. It would be a shame to look back and conclude that the United States was too J. Wellington Wimpy when it turns out to have mattered most. Much more at http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-15/blame-wimpy-for-slow-u-s-resp
onse-to-climate-change.html


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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


There IS no climate change. The cult of AGW is trying to unseat the cult of Islam as the world's most serious threat to humanity.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:24 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There IS no climate change. The cult of AGW is trying to unseat the cult of Islam as the world's most serious threat to humanity.


QFMFNS

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:31 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There IS no climate change. The cult of AGW is trying to unseat the cult of Islam as the world's most serious threat to humanity.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Right.... science is a cult. But your zealotry isn't.

Adorable.

And now you're back to climate change doesn't exist. So, in the last decade, you've gone from it doesn't exist, to change IS happening.... it just has nothing to do with humans, and now you're back to it doesn't exist at all.

You're such a hard-liner, you can't even keep track of where you drew your line. Like a child.




Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:58 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
There IS no climate change. The cult of AGW is trying to unseat the cult of Islam as the world's most serious threat to humanity.


QFMFNS



Quoted For Mother Fucking Non Sense?

(If I'm guessing right I'll just giggle for days...)

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Climate change isn't 'science', it's politics, you witless lemming.

The term 'climate change' is synonymous with AGW, which is the real fantasy here. I'M not the one who keeps changing the terminology, it's the zealots who use 'science' as their means of promoting their political agenda.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 4:26 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
But there’s an important disconnect here that warrants attention, too. People try to adapt once an event has occurred; beginning to adapt before events occur, even predictable events, is not always our strong suit.


Just as an aside, this amusingly ties in with my self-identifaction as a "villain", in a *positive* way, heee.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainsActHeroesReact
Quote:

"That's the problem with heroes, really. Their only purpose in life is to thwart others. They make no plans, develop no strategies. They react instead of act. Without villains, heroes would stagnate. Without heroes, villains would be running the world. Heroes have morals. Villains have work ethic."

For mine own, I try to act on potential issues BEFORE they become problems, it's much, much easier to stomp out a smoldering spark than hose down a conflagaration - this is also why folks hire me in a security sense, being able to detect and shut down potential threats before they become a problem, instead of coming to clean up the mess after, like the boys in blue.

As for the debate in question, I generally prefer to sidestep the whole thing and come at it from the obvious perspective of waste-not-want-not, side order of not trashing ones own living space.
Those arguments are as a rule quite invincible, unless you're dealing with someone who belongs in a rubber room, like our neighborhood guanopsychotic here.

-Frem

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 5:07 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quoted For Mother Fucking Non Sense?

(If I'm guessing right I'll just giggle for days...)

Well, then, you're welcome.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, November 20, 2012 5:27 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Unfortunately, the U.S. trying to control greenhouse gasses by itself is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

To start small, Japan has pretty much stated they aren't going to meet their Kyoto Treaty goals since they've decided to shut down their nuclear plants.

China, despite lip service to carbon emission reduction, is relying on coal for a lot of their power, and is building more coal-fired plants every day.

India is going to want more power as folks move up into the middle class, as is most of South America. They'll probably go the cheapest route, which isn't the greenest.

Then, looming on the horizon, there is Africa, which isn't isn't going to care how it gets electricity.

Not too sure Russia is going all that green eiher.

So you're looking at the U.S., Canada, and Western Europe to cut emissions enough to make up for the rest of the world. Not thinking that's likely.

I'm starting to think we'd do better preparing for climate change since we can't prevent it all by ourselves.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 7:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I reject the above. Point by point, the nations listed:
Quote:

Protests against pollution have multiplied in China as people become better informed and more concerned about the heavy ecological cost of economic development. Even state media now stresses the environment is a priority for China. Young people use micro-blogging to pass on the word. "People understand that the fight against pollution is a personal right, for there are very few places in the world where industrialisation has had such a massive and direct impact on such a large number of people," said environmental activist Ma Jun.

Earlier this summer there were student-led protests against a copper alloy plant in Shifang, central Sichuan province. The local authorities quickly scrapped the project. In August 2011 a similar protest broke out in the industrial port of Dalian in the north-east, which mobilised 12,000 people. The authorities gave way there too.

In Qidong, locals were protesting against plans by a Japanese-owned paper mill to build a wastewater pipeline close to a small port. "Many people earn a living from fishing here. That project jeopardised their livelihoods," said Li. She had learned about it on an internet forum and felt she had to do something. "Protecting the environment is our generation's responsibility, we have a better understanding about these issues."

The government is concerned by these demonstrations. An editorial in the People's Daily, the communist party organ, stated that "the public is rapidly becoming aware of environmental issues and its rights"....should state coercion fail, the government will immediately make some concessions to prevent the movement from escalating. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/aug/21/environment-activist
s-china-pollution-protest


As to Japan:
Quote:

In response to electricity crisis caused by the Great East Japan Earthquake and nuclear power plant accident in Fukushima, the government, power companies and private companies have been trying to find out new framework of energy security, which is not highly depending on single energy source i.e. nuclear power. Consumers' concerns over energy source and environment are also increasing and one solution is the development of more renewable energy resource and realize the best energy mix.

The Japanese government is currently formulating a new energy policy, in which presumably the portion of nuclear energy will be smaller while increasing focus on new and renewable energy. The Basic Energy Plan, which is currently under compilation at the initiative of the government, is supposed to be manifested in August 2012. This plan shall be closely watched, together with the movement of Nuclear Policy Outline, in order to assess mid-long term directional movement of Japanese energy development. http://www.finnode.fi/en/usa/projects/finnode_japan_2012_-_paradigm_sh
ift_in_energy_environment_after_3.11.371.xhtml


Details of how India is looking forward and planning to deal with environmental challenges can be found at http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/abatra/india_environmental_news_comp
i_29.html


As to Africa:
Quote:

Originally started as a pilot project in 2009, the Environmental Sustainability Schools Programme, now known as the Environmental Sustainability Project (ESP) is Youth @ SAIIA's newest youth outreach project that combines our longstanding commitment to public education on matters of international affairs with our desire to raise awareness of the current environmental sustainability debate among young South Africans.

South Africa will host the all-important 17th United Nations Conference of Parties (COP 17) on Climate Change in Durban later this year. Youth @ SAIIA has themed this year's Environmental Sustainability Project "Road to COP 17. Learners from Gauteng, Kwa-Zulu Natal and the Western Cape will participate in a model youth climate change negotiation at COP-17. The learners will have a chance to share their solutions for tackling the environmentally linked challenges of today. http://www.saiia.org.za/youth-programmes/environmental-sustainability-
project.html


You'll get no argument on Russia; their environmental record is horrific. Nonetheless,
Quote:

However, not everything goes badly in Russia. Positive developments are already taking place even though they are only a beginning. The Russian state has laid some important foundations despite the corruption, poorly conceived instruments and a complicated implementation. With both the climate doctrine and the energy law from 2009, the negative effects of the climate change are no longer ignored. Additionally, the energy law is intended to end the waste of energy; the goal is to waste 40 percent less energy until 2020. The first regulations have been formulated, but their implementation remains to be seen.

Russia's accession to the WTO promises some support. The Russian market will open slowly in the coming seven years until 2019, but the pressure is already increasing. The economy needs to modernize and end inefficiencies, especially in the area of power consumption, in order to be competitive. Modernization therefore becomes a question of economic survival. But the pressure increases also from society. Increasingly, environmental movements like NGOs are founded in Russia. Signs exist for a positive ecological change, but require further support. http://www.objectivemind.org/en/environment/russia/russias-environment
al-problems
/


So yes, it's going along haltingly, slowly, and against barriers put up by government and industry. But it IS changing, education on the environment is growing, and measures are being taken even by third-world countries to recognize and affect climate change.

Aside from that, didn't we once consider ourselves the "world's leader", the "innovator"; didn't we pride ourselves on being in the forefront of positive change? The concept that "it won't make any difference anyway, so we shouldn't bother" is inexcusable in my opinion.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 8:45 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Right.... science is a cult.


Yeah, because scientists are not subject to influence from those holding political and economic power.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 12:45 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

So you're looking at the U.S., Canada, and Western Europe to cut emissions enough to make up for the rest of the world.

Is this a hypothetical U.S.? You omit Japan from this list because it doesn't want to renew its Kyoto targets - but the U.S. never signed up in the first place. You can't point out other countries dragging their feet, and use that as an excuse for the U.S not doing anything, because it's exactly BECAUSE of the U.S. not doing anything that other countries are asking 'then why should we?'. Face it Geezer, the U.S. has shown NEGATIVE leadership on this issue.

Quote:

I'm starting to think we'd do better preparing for climate change since we can't prevent it all by ourselves.

It depends on China and India, but if the U.S. starts helping the cause instead of hurting it, who knows what could happen?

ETA:

On Japan: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-30/world-shouldn-t-wait-for-u-s-
resolution-on-climate-agreement-japan-says.html


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 12:51 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Right.... science is a cult.


Yeah, because scientists are not subject to influence from those holding political and economic power.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012


Yeah, they're also subject to what the facts and the evidence say. If AGW was a sham and a conspiracy there would be a BIG uproar and mutiny in the scientific community. But it's not, so there isn't. Or do you want to stick your neck out and predict that we'll see one?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:49 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Geezer: "I'm starting to think we'd do better preparing for climate
change since we can't prevent it all by ourselves."

That makes sense to me.

Since we are past the tipping point and disasterous changes are on us NOW,
we are way behind on preparing to weather the storms, droughts, extinctions,
etc. In fact, if the less-than-rich want to stand a chance ... sorry, I cannot
think of a solution for them. I just assume millions of us will die.

So I'm still recycling & composting. I still have a car that 3 of us use &
it goes less than 1,000 mi/year. But I haven't switched to green energy.

When it comes to climate change prevention/reversal, that's a joke. We can
try to mitigate it some. I also feel sure that science has & will continue to
produce solutions which, if used in time, could save some lives.



======================

A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Thursday, November 22, 2012 3:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Unfortunately, Oonj, I agree. I don't see any way enough people in just THIS country will accept the coming situation soon enough to change anything--if it's not too late already. Doesn't mean I won't keep fighting and encouraging people to learn the facts, because the more that do, the more chance those coming after me have for staving off what I believe is the inevitable.

While I don't see any real hope of stopping it, it seems to me that if efforts are put into R&D, science may find ways to mitigate it, hold it off longer, and/or for as many as possible to survive, if that's even a possibility.

Only time will tell. I have little faith in people, unfortunately, given that if they can't see DRAMATIC evidence in their own lifetimes, little will be done.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, November 22, 2012 3:29 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I reject the above. Point by point, the nations listed:
Quote:

Protests against pollution have multiplied in China as people become better informed and more concerned about the heavy ecological cost of economic development. Even state media now stresses the environment is a priority for China.



These folks aren't protesting about greenhouse gasses, they're protesting about heavy metal pollution, fouled water, and other stuff that's killing them right now.

Quote:

As to Japan:
Quote:

In response to electricity crisis caused by the Great East Japan Earthquake and nuclear power plant accident in Fukushima, the government, power companies and private companies have been trying to find out new framework of energy security, which is not highly depending on single energy source i.e. nuclear power.



But they still won't be able to meet, or stay close to, their Kyoto Agreement goals.
Quote:

The Environment Ministry, responsible for tracking greenhouse gas emissions, hasn't released official data for 2011 or 2012. But the Yomiuri newspaper, citing ministry estimates, said this month that actual emissions for 2012 were projected to climb to about 1.32 billion tons, which would be the highest level since 2007, just before the Kyoto Protocol began requiring greenhouse gas reductions.

...

Japan will not participate into the second commitment" period if Kyoto is extended beyond 2012, Masaru Sato, a Foreign Ministry spokesman, said in an email, using the common term of a renewal.

Even with aggressive buildup of the renewable energy industry, Japan's emissions levels in 2030 will be about 13 percent higher than they would have been at that same time with full use of nuclear power, according to a June report from the Institute for Global Environmental Strategies, based in Kanagawa Prefecture.


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20121022a1.html


Quote:

Details of how India is looking forward and planning to deal with environmental challenges can be found at http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/abatra/india_environmental_news_comp
i_29.html


Not much details besides convening more studies. However...
Quote:

India's annual greenhouse gas emissions increased by 58 per cent from 1994-2007, driven by higher industrial activity, energy production and transport, government figures showed on Tuesday. "Between 1994 and 2007, some of the sectors indicate significant growth in greenhouse gas related emissions, such as cement production, electricity generation and transport," said a report released by Environment Minister Jairam Ramesh.

Total annual greenhouse gas emissions grew from 1.25 billion tonnes in 1994 to 1.90 billion tonnes in 2007, confirming India among the world's biggest emitters.

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/abatra/india_environmental_news_comp
i_29.html


Quote:

As to Africa:
Quote:

Originally started as a pilot project in 2009, the Environmental Sustainability Schools Programme, now known as the Environmental Sustainability Project (ESP) is Youth @ SAIIA's newest youth outreach project that combines our longstanding commitment to public education on matters of international affairs with our desire to raise awareness of the current environmental sustainability debate among young South Africans.



And meanwhile the M23 rebels backed by Uganda and Rwanda are invading Congo and northern Africa is involved in budding religious war. The one big renewable energy project I've seen there appears to be falling through as backers pull out due to soaring costs.


Quote:

You'll get no argument on Russia; their environmental record is horrific. Nonetheless,
Quote:

The first regulations have been formulated, but their implementation remains to be seen.


Sorry, but that's my takeaway from this article.

Quote:

So yes, it's going along haltingly, slowly, and against barriers put up by government and industry. But it IS changing, education on the environment is growing, and measures are being taken even by third-world countries to recognize and affect climate change.

But I'm afraid too slowly.

Quote:

Aside from that, didn't we once consider ourselves the "world's leader", the "innovator"; didn't we pride ourselves on being in the forefront of positive change? The concept that "it won't make any difference anyway, so we shouldn't bother" is inexcusable in my opinion.

I have no problem with doing what we can do, within bounds that don't do too much harm to a fragile economy, but I think you have to realize that it's very likely that many places in the world are not going to make the effort - beyond studies, commissions, and governmental pronouncements - to cut emissions. Their citizens won't stand for it. Therefore, I think we'd better get ready for the possible effects of climate change.

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Friday, November 23, 2012 5:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


My point is that here in the states our politicians haven't even agreed that it EXISTS, and most on the right definitely refuse to acknowledge it, so we can't move forward much until that happens, which is depressing considering we're such a rich nation and the world (unfortunately) has been used to looking to us. That's changing I think (hope). We're behind the curve, we fight monied interests, and "half" our government refuses to even acknowledge the existence of a problem. Even the few who do argue that it's not man made, so any efforts we might make in this country are stymied.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, November 24, 2012 4:19 PM

OONJERAH



Global Warming Skepticism Higher in U.S. and Britain than Canada
(June 2012 poll)
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/45431/global-warming-skepticism-higher
-in-u-s-and-britain-than-canada
/

The views of Canadians on the issue of climate change continue
to differ greatly from those of Americans and Britons, a new
three-country Angus Reid Public Opinion poll has found.

The online survey of representative national samples also shows
that respondents in Canada are more likely to call for environmental
protection at the risk of hampering economic growth than those in
the United States and Britain.

Overall, practically three-in-five Canadians (58%) say that that
global warming is a fact and is mostly caused by emissions from
vehicles and industrial facilities. Only 43 per cent of Britons
and 42 per cent of Americans agree with this assessment. ...



======================
A man's gotta know his limitations. ~Dirty Harry

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Bingo. Short-sightedness seems to be a prevalent human failing. It's got something to do with the "I've got mine, screw you" mentality of not caring about the people coming along in the future, seems to me. Economic stability will go the way of the Dodo Bird as things get worse, more disasters hit, the old infrastructure gets overwhelmed, and on and on. I've been hearing a bit more about "preparedness" lately, maybe Sandy got some people's attention--that may be all we can do at this point, but at least we should be putting money into that. Which we won't, no doubt, and as things get worse and the government can't keep rebuilding and rescuing, maybe more people will wake up. I'm not holding my breath.

There's actually not that much difference between the three countries--yeah, it computes to millions of people, but 58% is still only slightly over half, when far more educated people should have recognized what's happening by now. I despair of even enough people understanding what's going on to START pushing our governments (which means going against the monied interests) to do anything. Very sad.
Quote:

respondents in Canada are more likely to call for environmental protection at the risk of hampering economic growth

GO Canada!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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