A confession. by AURaptor

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

A confession.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 14:48
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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 4:24 AM

America loves a winner!

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejewelled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, “Merry Christmas” to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a crib, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her: “How could God let something like this happen?” (regarding Hurricane Katrina). Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said: “I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?”

In light of recent events... terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbour as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit.

If not, then just discard it.... no one will know you did. But if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.

My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,

Ben Stein

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 4:34 AM

BYTEMITE

While I understand the logic about Christmas trees, I am not sure I understand the logic about Katrina. If you were to have an argument with your father, and then move away but still call him now and then, and then you get cancer, and he doesn't come visit until you call him, and he says, yeah, I knew about it, but we had an argument, so I said fuck you, that's kind of a dick move.

And I mean that's without factoring in the omnipotence thing and controlling the weather thing. Actually, maybe this is less like the analogy I just gave, and more like an abusive husband saying, when you do stuff that upsets me, I can't protect you from me hitting you.

Seriously, WTF?

This is why I will never be religious in any manner.

Quote:
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

This is insane. There's always been this stuff, it's just more sensationalized and reported because of the news media. It has nothing to do with my generation suddenly lacking morality. And yes, you're talking about my generation, so when you accuse us of having no morals, you're accusing me.

What is it with these people that like to brew generation gaps into an all out war? Except for Oonj (sometimes), I get along perfectly fine with my elders. Because we RESPECT each other. But according to this suddenly I'm inherently questionable and untrustworthy because I'm a millenial? I call foul. I call that my generation has just as many positive qualities as previous generations, and you know what? I don't have to accept these kind of accusations and abuse.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/12/charitable-giving-millennial-
generation_n_1590389.html

Ka-POW. Stop trashing on my peeps.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:10 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

"If God is able to prevent evil but does not, he must be malevolent.
If God is willing to prevent evil but does not, he must be impotent.
If God is both able and willing to prevent evil, whence cometh evil?
If God is neither able nor willing to prevent evil, why do you call him God?"

- Epicurus' trilemma

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.
A warning to everyone, AURaptor is a known liar.
...and now a Fundie!
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=53359

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 5:58 AM

STORYMARK

Im wondering why the "atheist" felt the need to post this....?

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 6:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Uhhhh, not only is that NOT a "confession", it's not even real:

Quote:
A small portion (perhaps a third) of each of the above texts was indeed written by columnist and TV personality Ben Stein and delivered by him on the CBS Sunday Morning program on December 18, 2005 (you can still read the original piece on Stein's website).

The rest was haphazardly cobbled together by person(s) unknown from various anonymous writings circulating on the Internet for the past 10 years.

For example, the quote attributed to Billy Graham's daughter Anne Graham Lotz is actually a paraphrase of statements she made on September 13, 2001 in an interview with Jane Clayson of the CBS Early Show. The subject matter of that interview was not, as alleged in the email, Hurricane Katrina, but the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001.

Spurious reference to White House 'holiday trees'

The claim, appended in 2011, that Stein was inspired to write the piece after the Obama White House allegedly referred to Christmas Trees as "Holiday Trees" is false on two counts: 1) at no time has the White House substituted the term "Holiday Tree" for "Christmas Tree" in recent years, and 2) Stein wrote it in 2005, three years before Obama became President. http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_ben_stein_christmas.htm

Anyone wanna bet this was something sent to Rap and he ran with it, without a single thought as to whether it was for real or not?

The article cited includes both what Rap copied and a previous "confession" supposedly written by Stein back in 2005. They're very similar, and not all the text was even WRITTEN by Stein, in either case. In essence, both are urban legends.

You can call them "diatribes", or "rants", or whatever you want, but they're far from "confessions", Ben Stein didn't write all of them, they're inaccurate, and the logic is insane. What kind of "god" would let so many people suffer (on 9/11, bear in mind--it wasn't about Katrina) who DID worship him just 'cuz some people (a minority) don't? No god I want to have anything to do with, that's for sure!

So much for that.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 8:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Im wondering why the "atheist" felt the need to post this....?

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

Oh, I'll bet he's just gearing up for the "war on christmas" season again!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:53 AM

FREMDFIRMA

In direct response to the initial post, since we're gonna "go there" which I usually do NOT.

Fuck You.
And Fuck your "God", too.

The only lasting 'legacy' of that belief is the same as it ever was, a mountain of corpses of the innocent dead, a bloodbath of proportions so epic that even all the secular wars of our history combined do not compare - a tragedy of vile prejudice, discrimination, misogyny, persecution and downright unreasoning fanatical hate.

And it's Yule, btw - the whole tree thing comes from the damn pagans anyhow, yanno, the people that belief murdered in droves, yes ?

Quote:
"If God is able to prevent evil but does not, he must be malevolent.
If God is willing to prevent evil but does not, he must be impotent.
If God is both able and willing to prevent evil, whence cometh evil?
If God is neither able nor willing to prevent evil, why do you call him God?"

- Epicurus' trilemma

Simple answer, their "God" is a deceptive, malevolent sadist that derives both pleasure and sustenance from the suffering of mankind and thus manipulates those susceptible to its vile influence (the weak willed, authoritarian or insane) into causing maximum suffering.
And like any junkie the diminishing returns of that addiction in combination with putting said easily manipulated jackasses in charge of a society ensures it produces people broken enough to further manipulate in ever increasing numbers.

Deprive that abomination of adoration and suffering to feed on, so that it withers and either collapses into a ball of the howling misery it has visited upon us for so long, or finds some other world to savage in its feeding, and only then will mankind finally take that last step on the road to enlightenment.

Or.. barring that, deprive that fucking monster of worshippers.
Wouldn't have too much of a moral problem with that myself, just so you know.

That so-called-diety is just representative of the typical problem and scam on a macrocosmic scale, it pretends to be a solution when its actually the root of the problem.
Snake oil salesman writ large.

As far as the rest of it and our resident guanopsychotic rationale for posting it, one could assume it as a confession of sorts, if we all didn't ALREADY know he's a jackboot licking fundamentalist.

-Frem

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:18 AM

BYTEMITE

The Scandinavians liked to decorate their Yule trees with the heads of their fallen enemies and deadly poisons such as mistletoe.

*sparkling rainbows jingle ---> And now you know*

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:43 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Ben Stein's career peaked decades ago with his line in Ferris Bueller.

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Wednesday, November 21, 2012 2:16 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Im wondering why the "atheist" felt the need to post this....?

Did you even bother reading it ?

I wonder. Seems everyone so far missed the point.

But, I think that's probably on purpose.

I'll let folks think about it some more, before I say my piece.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 7:48 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

There are a few good points in there, but thank you Niki for checking the authenticity of the post in question, because I've heard some of that elsewhere in various places and I can't imagine Ben Stein saying all that at once.

Why does crap happen? Because crap happens. The weather does what it does, it is the way of the earth and all that weather is just that, the workings of the earth, sometimes its pleasant and sometimes its not, I reckon God lets it do its thing most of the time without interference, because its how the earth works. Why do people do horrible things to each other? Because of sin and free will, unfortunately the downside to free will is that one person's free choices can affect a nation negatively, If I make really awful choices I affect the people around me negatively, a good reason to try and make good choices in life, because I don't want to hurt those around me with my errors.

Sometimes life just sucks and there's no reason to over annalyze it, when people over annalyze things they just frustrate themselves and nothing gets solved a lot of the time anyway, at least when it involves philosophy or the like.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 26, 2012 5:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ignoring the fact that the original "confession" IS A FAKE, which someone among us seems to have ignored (naming no names, mind you), it struck me to wonder about its thrust:

Quote:
I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God?

My question is: Who exactly is pushing Christians around, and who said anyone "isn't allowed" to worship God? As far as I can see, the only "pushing" has been to stop schools from DEMANDING students pray--and that's what it is, because if a student "chooses" not to engage in Christian prayer, there are consequences from his fellow students, not to mention reaction and possible bias by religious teachers.

Other than that, I can't come up with a single case of "pushing around". That people CHOOSE to worship celebrities is stupid, and most people agree on that. Nobody is keeping anyone from worshiping whatever god they choose to worship, efforts have only been made to separate government from CHRISTIAN worship. We're supposedly an egalitarian country, so the idea that one god, one religion, has more rights than any other, or none, isn't what our country was founded upon. It wasn't founded on "atheism", it was founded upon RELIGIOUS FREEDOM: that everyone has equal rights when it comes to worship, and no one religion will be shoved down anyone's throat. It's something our founding fathers worked hard to ensure; that no one religion would dominate or even be involved in government.

If any "pushing around" has been done, it's by the ultra-religious Christians themselves. The mere complaint that "God" is being taken out of the schools, demanding the country abide by their bible's "laws" (which they take out of context and twist anyway), that the country abide by THEIR beliefs against abortion and in favor of the death penalty, etc., etc., indicates THEIR belief that everyone should do what they want, not that people should have freedom of choice to worship as they choose...OR NOT.

Nobody is stopping anyone from worshipping whoever they want...in their place of worship, or in private, or quietly. To take it outside of that is pushing everyone else around.

In essence, even if the so-called "confession" were real--which again, remember, IT'S NOT, I reject the entire premise of it. Nobody is "pushing" Christians around; but they've done a heck of a lot of "pushing" of others.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 8:33 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Im wondering why the "atheist" felt the need to post this....?

Did you even bother reading it ?

I wonder. Seems everyone so far missed the point.

But, I think that's probably on purpose.

I'll let folks think about it some more, before I say my piece.

Yes, I did. Why do you right wing fundies assume that nopt agreeing with your BS equates to not reading it?

The question still stands. Why did a supposed "atheist" (I use the word supposed - because no one belives your lying ass anymore) feel the need to post a fabricated tirade about the need for God in sociaty?

I am amused that he who considers himself above citing his sources got caught posting a fabrication. Not that he has the courage to cop to it...

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Monday, November 26, 2012 12:34 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
If any "pushing around" has been done, it's by the ultra-religious Christians themselves.

I don't think anyone can deny that the religious right is pretty pushy. But feeling like the victim themselves is how they justify it in their own minds. Folk who make themselves feel like the victim all the time are the worst kind of people. And this guy goes way off the deep end in order to feel victimised:

"I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat."

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 12:54 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree that school led prayer is NOT okay in public schools.

Do I feel pushed around because I'm a Christian? Sometimes, not often, but sometimes. I do feel like our society is falling apart morally, but as far as personal persecution its pretty limited so far.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA

And then there's stuff like THIS...
Problem is, as a society we're so immersed in overbearing support for one religion it's become all but invisible to us - unless you happen to not belong to it, and be on hostile terms with it, and then it feels like every time you turn around, SLAP, right in the face... over, and over, and over again.

A Year in Jail for Not Believing in God? How Kentucky Is Persecuting Atheists
http://www.alternet.org/belief/year-jail-not-believing-god-how-kentuck
y-persecuting-atheists

Quote:
In Kentucky, a homeland security law requires the state’s citizens to acknowledge the security provided by the Almighty God--or risk 12 months in prison.
The law and its sponsor, state representative Tom Riner, have been the subject of controversy since the law first surfaced in 2006, yet the Kentucky state Supreme Court has refused to review its constitutionality, despite clearly violating the First Amendment’s separation of church and state

And here's the most offensive part, to me.
See - we've already had many discussions about how the moment one winds up in custody the State will quite effectively destroy their life, bills go unpaid, relationships fester, careers go by the wayside, not to mention the local propaganda engines kick in to help demonise you, yadda freakin yadda.

So, say you DO wind up busted for this, and 3-4 months down the road, assuming you can shell out the ludicrous extortion of "bail" in excess of triple your assets and happen to be hanging on by your fingernails, and the charges get thrown out as the act is challenged and deemed unconstitutional.
You're still out the money, and sure you could sue - but even should you win that good luck actually seeing the payback in your lifetime.

But the very worst, is if you should resist what amounts to an illegal arrest - THAT charge will stick, even if the REASON you're being arrested is outright bullshit, in much the same fashion as the military enforces compliance with illegal orders by throwing down insubordination charges for the MANNER of refusal.

Of course, the only way around all this is not ever allowing such attempts at State backed persecution to see the light of day, but when has that ever happened ?

Now sure, I give props to people who try to practice an ethical form of Christianity, but factually the bulk of those who practice that belief do not, and whatever one individually thinks a believe MEANS, if the greater part of those who practice it do so a certain way, I feel that it does indeed constitute what the belief *IS* whether or not it was intended as such.

Which is of course, why I am hostile to it.

-Frem

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 7:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Yes, I did. Why do you right wing fundies assume that nopt agreeing with your BS equates to not reading it?

The question still stands. Why did a supposed "atheist" (I use the word supposed - because no one belives your lying ass anymore) feel the need to post a fabricated tirade about the need for God in sociaty?

The point wasn't about the need for God, but of a person of one faith respecting the views and belief's of those who don't share his faith.

Which is why I posted it, me, an atheist, showing idiots like you that I'm not as close minded as you are.

Quote:

I am amused that he who considers himself above citing his sources got caught posting a fabrication. Not that he has the courage to cop to it...

It's a view point which I've heard others express before, so it wasn't so terribly surprising to see Ben Stein's name at the bottom of this piece.

And it isn't "fake". While it's been inaccurately recycled, Ben Stein indeed did write about the absurdity of calling things by different names ( holiday tree, instead of Christmas tree ) for the mindless PC thought police.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, November 27, 2012 2:48 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

CRap Frem, that is a very bad law. I can't believe that's allowed to be a law, it isn't the government's business what people believe in, as long as it doesn't harm anyone. That sort of thing would never fly in Portland, maybe you should think about moving out here, I think you would like it. (yes I know it was in Kentucky, and you're in Detroit, but I still think you'd like it out here, you and Wendy could ... although she has other people in Detroit that are important to her so maybe you guys should stay put for now.)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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