REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Mississippi Learning: Why the State's Students Start Behind — and Stay Behind

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 4, 2012 07:59
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Friday, November 30, 2012 6:52 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


At a time when education is vital to our economy and ability to compete in the world, some of our worst-educated states are getting worse...
Quote:

When school begins next month in Mississippi, Akeeleon Lewis will head to kindergarten for the second time. He started school last fall not knowing his colors or numbers.

"He couldn't even hold a pencil," says Judy Packer, his kindergarten teacher at McNeal Elementary School in Canton, a city of 13,000 about 30 miles northeast of the state capital in Jackson.

Akeeleon was one of about 10 percent of kindergarteners kept back at McNeal when the school year ended in May, a rate twice the national average. Before he arrived at McNeal, he hadn't played much with children his age or ever set foot in a classroom.

Thirty years after Mississippi established statewide kindergarten and made school attendance compulsory starting in first grade, classroom readiness remains a major obstacle to student success in this state, which has the highest rate of childhood poverty in the country and test scores that are consistently among the nation's worst.

Although neighboring states have made great strides in early education, Mississippi remains the only state in the South — and just one of 11 in the country — that doesn't fund any pre-k programs. Researchers have found that high-quality pre-k programs can improve long-term outcomes for low-income children and help close an achievement gap for minorities that tends to worsen over time. Being able to stand in line, listen to directions or make eye contact with the teacher play in an important role when it comes time to try to teach kids how to read and write. And a lack of school readiness is evident the minute children walk in on the first day of kindergarten, says Kaye Sowell, who has taught for 30 years in Rankin County. "I've had to chase children into the street," she says. "I have kids who don't know their given name and can't recognize it in print. They can't go through the lunch line without holding it up. You can't fathom it unless you've lived it."

Failure to prepare children for kindergarten or first grade costs the state a lot of money. One of every 14 kindergarteners and one of every 15 first-graders in Mississippi repeated the school year in 2008, the most recent year for which statistics are available. From 1999 to 2008, the state spent $383 million on children who had to repeat kindergarten or first grade, according to the Southern Education Foundation. Children like Akeeleon start so far behind they may never catch up, and those who repeat one or more grades are much more likely than their classmates to drop out of school, decades of research have shown.

The state's academic results — abysmal by just about any measurement — don't improve as the children grow older. In 2011, the state's fourth-graders were outperformed on the reading portion of the National Assessment of Educational Progress by their peers in 44 states. In math, they finished second to last in the nation, ahead only of fourth-graders in the District of Columbia.

Just 61 percent of Mississippi's students graduate from high school on time — more than 10 percentage points below the national average. Mississippi found itself at the bottom again this week, ranking 50th on six of the 10 national indicators of child well-being in a report released by the Annie E. Casey Foundation.

Over the years, countless committees, taskforces and politicians in the state have argued that investing in pre-k will improve high-school graduation rates and build a more highly educated workforce in Mississippi. Retired military leaders added their voices in May, calling for state-funded pre-k to help prepare the more than 75 percent of young Mississippi residents who are ineligible to join the military because, among other reasons, they failed to graduate from high school on time.

But legislators have held firm in the belief that the economically depressed state cannot afford pre-k. Nationally over the past decade, enrollment in pre-k programs has soared even as state funding has declined by more than $700 per child, according to the National Institute for Early Education Research.Much more at http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2120539,00.html


Ignorance begets ignorance, and short-term mentality begets long-term suffering (and expense).

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Friday, November 30, 2012 8:28 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I posted about one other factor in another thread, and I will just copy the appropriate post over here as well...
Quote:


One more log on the fire for a state we've already got issues with.
Not that it'll see much progress, but I will punt that one to Gus since he's already down there and knows better than I which ivory towers to shake about it - we're STILL dealing with that hellspawned mess in Meridian...
http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/24/justice/mississippi-civil-rights-lawsuit
/index.html


Throwin kids in prison for dress code violations, seriously ?

And this bullshit besides, poor kids get it comin and going, taking into account the original topic all too often born unwelcome and unwanted, and then chucked into the school-to-prison pipeline, too many of them along the way thanks to lack of education, access to contraception and being mentally screwed up enough already to just not care - feeding the cycle.

If ever some people DESERVED to have Al Sharpton sicced on em, it's the bastards behind all this.
And I am sorely tempted to help that right on along, I am.

-Frem


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Friday, November 30, 2012 2:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Interesting title. Whenever I think of "backwards" states I think of Mississippi, Arkansas and Louisiana, and maybe Kentucky. I agree with "ignorance begets ignorance", but I would go a step farther and point out that parents who had a decent enough education can make ignorant children, if they don't value education themselves.

Preschool is such a good thing for kids, especially if they don't have children their own age to play with in their household or neighborhood. Just learning to socialize, write their name, take turns, follow instructions is vital to success in kindergarten, especially since they are hurried along in kindergarten, I think we push kids too much in kindergarten personally. Some children are ready for reading at 5 but some kids need a little more time. I blame this all on Japan and other countries who work their children to the bone at school, just because they do things harshly doesn't mean we should. Look at Finland, their kids don't start school until 7 and they're succeding near the top of the list.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Friday, November 30, 2012 4:41 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


I notice that nowhere in the article cited could I find the word 'parent'.

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Saturday, December 1, 2012 2:15 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Could you articulate your point Geezer?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, December 1, 2012 3:20 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Could you articulate your point Geezer?



Seems pretty straightforward. There seems to be no indication that the person writing this article and proposing changes to the educational system is attempting to involve the parents in any way in the education of their children. Somehow I doubt that putting kids in Kindergarten and pre-K is gonna do much good if they don't have support for learning socialization skills and some dicipline at home.

Looking at the entire article http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2120539,00.html the only mention of parents is here: "But getting parents to demand access to high-quality preschools has proven to be a challenge in Mississippi. Parents or grandparents who didn't attend themselves may not see the value."

So apparently the only value to education the writer of this article sees in parents is as lobbying machines for more state spending.

I don't know about you, but I figure I got a pretty good education(without attending kindergarten or pre-K), and have been able to have a pretty good life because my parents made sure I was doing my school work and knew how to behave around other folks. How someone can leave this important factor entirely out of the education equation is puzzling.

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Saturday, December 1, 2012 5:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you for finding and providing the link--I try to do that consistently, I missed that one.

I feel like I know where your mindset is from "lobbying machines for more state spending". You make a valid point. To me, given the state in which these children arrive at first grade, it seems pretty obvious that parental involvement isn't very good to start with, and it does mention that parents who didn't have the opportunity might be resistant to the idea. Nonetheless, it IS a good point, so I hunted around a bit. Hard to find things specific to Mississippi, since that's the focus of the first article, but I did find this, which I found interesting. It's from a teacher who taught in a Mississippi school for over two decades:
Quote:

Parent involvement takes on a very different meaning when I see the parents of my students every week ringing me up in the grocery store, rinsing me out at the beauty shop, tuning up my car at the local garage, or delivering my mail. I worship with them, bowl with them, sit in the waiting rooms with them. I know them, and they trust me.

Trust is the issue with most parents. Here in the Delta, over 40% of the adults are illiterate; others have had very little formal education. Even those who finished school often had to do it over significant obstacles. Some parents had horrible educational experiences as children, particularly in the period of transition from the segregated schools. Like our urban colleagues, we have increasing numbers of parents who speak little or no English. Many of our parents simply trust us to do what is best for their children because we are the professionals.

Principal Shannon Flounnory of Stonewall Tell Elementary School in College Park, Georgia puts it this way: “High levels of parental involvement would be an outstanding asset, but if we don’t get it, then we still have a responsibility to the students we serve.”

As part of a classroom research project several years ago, I interviewed many parents and set up a response group. They repeatedly expressed dismay over the increasing number of adults working in the schools who did not take the time to know their children as individuals or to care about them as persons. My husband and I have raised 11 children, all of whom attended public school. Every one of them had different abilities, talents, personalities, and habits. We tried to help their teachers understand how best to work with each of them, but we also expected their teachers to learn about our children for themselves and work with each one appropriately. The good teachers did; the lazy ones wouldn’t.

Despite years of studies and initiatives, educators and administrators across the country are still wringing their hands and shaking their heads over the need for “more parental involvement in our public schools.” But what exactly do we educators mean by “parental involvement”? Two common scenarios seem to prevail:

#1. Send us your child: Clean, well-dressed, fed, disciplined, obedient, eager-to-learn, cooperative, and (preferably) already reading, counting, and computer literate. In 12 years (give or take a few months), we’ll send the little darling back to you ready to use that college trust fund.

#2. Come to school when we call you and deal with your child (this usually means there is a disciplinary problem); send money, supplies, science fair project boards, and your signature when required. You may come on parent night or to special events.

That’s not always what we get, of course. What about…

The parent who believes public education means the public gets to run it. The parent who wants to approve lesson plans, classroom rules, and the reading list. The parent who questions the necessity and logic of homework or class assignments. The parent who demands to see staff credentials, has a copy of the curriculum guide, and highlights the school’s published report card, noting deficiencies. The parent who has the principal’s cell phone number and that of the school board president on speed dial. The parent who visits the classroom frequently--and stays. The parent who never misses PTA meeting and always has questions, suggestions, or criticisms for the staff.

When I hear fellow educators lamenting the lack of parental involvement and blaming parents for not supporting their children’s education, I wonder which of these scenarios they’d rather see? There are some places where meaningful parental involvement is routine. In those places where it is not, there are reasons--and some of those reasons are us, the educators. If we had genuine parental involvement from the majority of our parents, how many of us could really take the pressure?

Some of the best and brightest students I have ever taught had parents who were not just dysfunctional; they were dangerous. Conversely, some of the lowest performing students I know of had parents who were passionately interested in their education. Many things can hinder effective parental involvement; not the least of which is the unwelcoming attitudes of educators or the limits we put on when and how we want parental input. How many educators are using lack of parental involvement (or, lack of the kind of involvement we would like) as an excuse for low expectations and minimal instruction, particularly for the children of the poor or children of color? http://www.learningfirst.org/ReneeMooreParentInvolvement


I found this an interesting take on the issue. I also found myself wondering about the "negative" aspect of parental involvement in one respect. The teacher in question happens to be Black; given she says trust is such an important element, I wonder if her experience of parents getting over-involved in the school (not their own children) might result from the mistrust of a Black teacher? I also wonder, given her "criteria" for parental involvement and the wording, how much the mistrust is on her side--I SEEM to detect some resentment in her choice of wording. It may mean nothing, but it occurred to me. I also would love to know how much involvement those "negative" parents had in their own children's learning...wish I could find out, because there's a huge difference between wanting to ensure that the school/teacher are doing their job and helping your child at home.

Parental involvement is unquestionably very important in end results. In my opinion, it wasn't dealt with in the first article because the focus was on preparing children for the educational experience, and the examples cited seemed to indicate home environments where little or no interest exists in preparing the child. But it is definitely an omission.

While the second article I found addresses parental involvement exclusively, it raises more questions than answers, doesn't address parental involvement at home, and seems rather biased in its tone.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, December 1, 2012 10:08 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
I don't know about you, but I figure I got a pretty good education(without attending kindergarten or pre-K), and have been able to have a pretty good life because my parents made sure I was doing my school work and knew how to behave around other folks. How someone can leave this important factor entirely out of the education equation is puzzling.


Your parents could AFFORD to do so.

My parent worked 12-14 hour days with a 2+ hour commute and as a result I wound up more or less running the household from a single digit age, and I was not at all alone in this, latchkey children are more a problem than they ever were and no one wants to talk about that either - when a parent is too overworked (and this was, eventually the primary factor in that parents death, via stress, lack of medical care and mental health degradation) trying to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads to even see to their OWN needs, one can hardly expect the best of parenting from them.

Involve THAT factor, and we'll discuss it.
Easy to cast blame from on-high, not so easy from Down Here.

-Frem

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Saturday, December 1, 2012 2:02 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Somehow I doubt that putting kids in Kindergarten and pre-K is gonna do much good if they don't have support for learning socialization skills and some dicipline at home.

There's plenty of evidence, as the article states, that early childhood intervention programs can be very effective in improving children's academic outcomes. Why theorise that it might not work, when we know that it does? You may as well theorise that planes, man-made hunks of metal, 'will never fly'.

Quote:

How someone can leave this important factor entirely out of the education equation is puzzling.

The point of the article is why Mississipi's students are performing especially badly. To focus on the state's unique education positions and policies seems fair to me. To suggest that Mississipians are just worse parents than the rest of the country seems like a bizzarely harsh line to take...

Also, you talk about your own privileged family upbringing and how that underpinned your academic achievements. Then you should recognise that part of the function of these early childhood intervention programs is to recreate that for less fortunate kids. By taking some of the burden off parents, and by offering training and support services for parents, these programs can offer a better, more stable caregiving environment for the children.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 5:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well said, Frem and KPO; and educated me on some things I hadn't considered. I don't think it's all that black, tho'; when looking around for something about parental involvement in kids' education in Mississippi, I came across numerous groups of parents trying to work with the schools and improve the situation. So it's not all black and white, but your points are well taken, nonetheless.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 8:53 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Your parents could AFFORD to do so.

My parent worked 12-14 hour days with a 2+ hour commute and as a result I wound up more or less running the household from a single digit age, and I was not at all alone in this, latchkey children are more a problem than they ever were and no one wants to talk about that either - when a parent is too overworked (and this was, eventually the primary factor in that parents death, via stress, lack of medical care and mental health degradation) trying to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads to even see to their OWN needs, one can hardly expect the best of parenting from them.

Involve THAT factor, and we'll discuss it.
Easy to cast blame from on-high, not so easy from Down Here.



Both my parents worked for a good bit of my childhood - kinda rare in the '50s. My mom was a substitute teacher and my dad worked the swing shift at the Post Office in downtown Atlanta - so he had a pretty good commute too. Eventually he got promoted and moved to a branch office closer to home, but we weren't living high off the hog for quite a while.

Both my parents graduated college in the depths of the Depression, so they knew the value of an education. Maybe that's why they made sure that I hit the books before play or TV time. They both also loved to read, and passed that on to me, which has been to my advantage many times when I was working.




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Sunday, December 2, 2012 8:55 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
You may as well theorise that planes, man-made hunks of metal, 'will never fly'.

To suggest that Mississipians are just worse parents than the rest of the country seems like a bizzarely harsh line to take...




Okay. Done here.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:13 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Yeah verily, it's not that black and white, it never is - just wanted to hold up a mirror to the other end of that argument, show it comes from both ends.

Geeze, I concur that a love of reading is a tremendous gift, one of the better ones that any parent can offer - as a small and curious child I would read ANYTHING (including at one point a whole damn set of Encyclopedia Britannica picked up at a yard sale) and that has benefitted me greatly.
Tis also why I go psychotic at closing libraries in impoverished neighborhoods (like Baltimore did to buy that stupid football team), cause it deprives the poor of that advantage.

-Frem

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:01 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Geeze, I concur that a love of reading is a tremendous gift, one of the better ones that any parent can offer - as a small and curious child I would read ANYTHING (including at one point a whole damn set of Encyclopedia Britannica picked up at a yard sale) and that has benefitted me greatly.
Tis also why I go psychotic at closing libraries in impoverished neighborhoods (like Baltimore did to buy that stupid football team), cause it deprives the poor of that advantage.

-Frem



My nieces and nephews get books from me every Christmas, and when I shop for Toys for Tots, half the load is books. I just hope I can strike the spark somewhere.

From the time I was seven or eight, my folks would make sure I got to the library at least every couple of weeks. The first 'grown up' books I remember reading were my dad's copies of "The Martian Chronicles" and "Tarzan of the Apes". Madame and I still hit the library pretty much weekly. Reading has literally saved my life, in more ways than one.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 5:12 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Thanks Niki for posting another interesting and thought provoking article.

My thoughts intitially on reading it were to start rolling me eyes. There is such a push for formal early childhood learning and on a fundamentallevel I don't approve. Parents and teachers are now expecting children to be drilled in the basics prior to school, ie they must be reading and writing and doing basic sums, be able to sit and listen, complete work etc etc etc. Just high expectations. Not a bad thing, I hear you ask. Well, maybe no.

Personally, I'd rather follow the Scandanavian model, which is little early years education and a late start to school. Any early years learning is purely play based and as informal as possible. Allowing kids to have unstructured play, to develop social skills through play, to develop their creativity unhindered by competitiveness are crucial to later outcomes, both educational, social, and emotional. Formal education has this tendancy to narrow the focus to results driven, competitive, learning and all that wonderful creativity of childhood can be easily trampled. Scandanavia has some of the best academic outcomes in the world, btw. They are also, by and large extremely prosperous nations.

And there is the catch. I can see how early childhood education could make significant difference in lower socio economic groups, particularly those in poverty.

I post this time and time again, poverty goes hand in hand with a whole host other issues that create poor outcomes, including drug and alcohol, childhood neglect,family breakdown, violence etc. Not saying they don't occur across all economic groups, but the incidences are higher with the poor. In these cases, education can be a lifesaver for kids, a real way to break the cycle.

Geezer, you are right that parents and family are crucial to outcomes, but as I have stated above for those whose family life is less than ideal, education can be the circuit breaker.

The article on parental involvement in schools certainly rang true with me. Although parental involvement was officially welcomed, I rarely saw it be of assistance to my son, except that in the early years I sat in on some of the classes because some of the teacher complaints about his behaviour.

The dialogue between us and the teachers has never been particularly satisfactory.
School calls with complaint - we go - we listen - we talk about strategies we use at home - school refuses to use them because they can't work in classroom environment - we ask teacher how we can support them - they can't answer.

So I end up thinking, why the hell call us? Clearly we aint gonna problem solve this together. I know what they want is for us to talk to our son and get him to change his behaviour. That just doesn't seem to work. My son has felt persecuted, disregarded, picked on by the teachers and I;m not there to see what goes on, but my heart tells me to believe my son.

In the end, the only thing I can say is that if you do a) the school will do b) - even if that feels unfair that is what will happen.

Okay so long post that got all personal there.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 8:30 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Personally, I'd rather follow the Scandanavian model, which is little early years education and a late start to school. Any early years learning is purely play based and as informal as possible. Allowing kids to have unstructured play, to develop social skills through play, to develop their creativity unhindered by competitiveness are crucial to later outcomes, both educational, social, and emotional. Formal education has this tendancy to narrow the focus to results driven, competitive, learning and all that wonderful creativity of childhood can be easily trampled. Scandanavia has some of the best academic outcomes in the world, btw. They are also, by and large extremely prosperous nations.


In addition to being, by and large, happier, saner societies.
One thing that struck me about Steig Larssons books was that even depicted at its ultimate worst, how their legal, social and justice systems are SO much more... HUMANE, than ours are.

Back in the late 60s-early 70s most of those countries made the final push to remove a substantial about of the physical and psychological brutality out of their childraising efforts, in response to witnessing a war caused by societies which had curdled and gone mad - Alice Millers work was particularly instrumental in exposing this for what it was - and as a *direct* result of that decision, are reaping the benefits thereof now.

I am not kidding when I say their whole childcare and education system is twenty, thirty years ahead of ours, up to and including special needs kids, for their research into autism is lightyears ahead of ours.
That COULD be us, were we to simply acknowledge our own children as human beings, as people, and treat them as such.
Mind you cause of other elements it'd take 40-50 years for that advancement in our case cause of our social tolerance for certain evils, but it WOULD happen, as not producing future psychos eventually causes their numbers and influence to decline.

Speakin of Scandanavian humane-ness: THIS.

Norway princess in secret India trip to play nanny
http://news.yahoo.com/norway-princess-secret-india-trip-play-nanny-154
100003.html

Quote:

OSLO (Reuters) - Norway's Crown Princess Mette-Marit secretly traveled to India in order to care for infant twins born to the surrogate mother of a gay palace employee unable to get a travel visa, the palace said on Monday.

Armed with a diplomatic passport that granted her immediate access, the future queen jumped on a plane in late October when the employee, who is also a friend, and his husband were unable to travel to care for their newborns.

"For me, this is about two babies lying alone in a New Delhi hospital," Mette-Marit said in a statement. "I was able to travel and wanted to do what I could."

She did not alert Indian authorities and spent several days with the babies at the Manav Medicare Centre, where staff assumed the wife of Norway's Crown Prince Haakon was a nanny.

While the princess was away, her name continued to appear in the official palace calendar and her absence from a parliamentary dinner was not explained.

A relative of the two fathers eventually took over from Mette-Marit and the fathers received a visa in November, when they brought the babies back to Norway, the palace added.

Surrogacy is a hotly debated issue in Norway and the government discourages Norwegians from paying surrogate parents for children.

Protestant Norway was the second country in the world in 1993 to register same sex partnerships while same sex marriage has been legal since 2009.

The Crown Princess acknowledged the debate and insisted she is not taking a side and only did what a friend had to do.

"Sometimes life presents you with situations with few good solutions. This was one of those," she said. "There is an important debate going on about surrogacy and this was not meant as taking a side."


True Nobility comes from your DEEDS, not your bloodline.

-Frem

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Monday, December 3, 2012 10:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Geezer, your description of your parents from your first post could be exactly mine of my parents. Mom worked as a secretary--also somewhat unusual in the 50s, and the rest is true of them as well, quite possibly for the same reason you mentioned (having gone to school in the Depression). Good point. I didn't have the library experience you did, however; wish I had.

Magons, that Scandinavian concept is WONDERFUL, but I don't think it would work here...given exactly what you described. When competing with a system that encourages early education, I don't think one can succeed without early education, in other words.

Ah, I see Frem addressed that better than I could. Yes, I think we pay far too little attention to the Scandinavian countries, and I believe they're ahead of us in MOST things societal, if we bothered to look. I'd LIKE to believe we'll get there in 20 or 30 years, Frem, but I'm not that much of an optimist, I'm afraid. But thanx for the article, that was lovely and heartening.

What you had to say about parental involvement was most interesting, too, Magons. Not having had my own kids, I've not "been there", tho' I did go once because of Jeff. It was my experience, too, that the main thing they wanted was to change his behavior, and I fully agree it's just not possible--or at least not that easy, when you haven't got a degree in psychology (or even when you DO, probably!). I believe the school could work to change the behavior, but I also believe giving any one child enough attention to DO so is less and less possible these days--if it ever was.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 11:05 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Geezer's argument is bogus.

He seems to think that because both of HIS parents graduated from college, all other parents should be the same way and confer the same advantages on their children.

'Both my parents graduated college in the depths of the Depression ...
they made sure that I hit the books before play or TV time ... They both also loved to read, and passed that on to me ...'

He seems to think that because HE did well without pre-K or K other children should do as well.

'I figure I got a pretty good education(without attending kindergarten or pre-K) ...'

And he seems to think that any effort by society to help children without even the basics (let alone the rare advantages he enjoyed) is simply a scam.

'So apparently the only value to education the writer of this article sees in parents is as lobbying machines for more state spending.'


If we are to believe the figures posted, 40% of the parents are illiterate. And an increasing percentage don't even speak English. It's no wonder the kids aren't prepared for school. So what are we to do?

In Geezer-speak, let's just blame the parents and write off the children. It's the parents' fault, so just trash the kids.


This reminds me very much about the fast-food thread, where Geezer, from his comfortable position in life, recommends poor people buy in bulk and store the goods in the spare freezer they just happen to have handy.

I think Geezer's tag line should be 'Let them eat cake.'


BTW - there is a historical swath of immigrant children who were both taught English and spared a lifetime of the worst poverty through the innovation called 'public education'. I'm talking about the Irish, Italians, Polish, Hungarians and other non-English speaking European immigrants who fueled the US economy and enriched its culture.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 11:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What Kiki said, in spades. And yes, I remember the "buy in bulk" remark, and how it made me both laugh and shake my head at the same time. I caught the "lobbying machines for more state spending" bit too, as I think I posted, and it pretty much told me where he was coming from.

Something about the phrase "unclear on the concept" comes to mind.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 11:57 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I think Geezer always tries to draw a connecting line between hardship, and people's bad choices - not buying the right groceries, not raising their kids with values that will advance them in life. And if he can establish that link, then that means there's no place for government to play a role in the situation. After all isn't freedom allowing people responsibility for their own bad choices, and to suffer the consequences? If government starts along this road, interfering with the consequences of people's decisions, where does it end?

That's my guess.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 12:36 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I know you aren't arguing his case. But one would think that with a very small amount of reflection he would uncover the illogic of his position. Because the line he is trying to draw is broken. Did the children make bad choices being born in poverty to illiterate parents? Did the parents make bad choices with their parents? Did the people eating fast food make bad choices in placing the grocery store so far away?

Did the individual peasants make bad choices being born in the age of Marie Antoinette?

There's only so much territory personal responsibility can cover.

So, we have a problem. Poor, illiterate, maybe even not too bright parents have children who aren't ready for school. If parents and a whole lot of history are the cause, how does writing off the children apportion responsibility correctly? And how does it fix the problem?


And what I hoped to argue for is a genuine example from the historical past - how it was that not only did government spending on behalf the the poor in the form of public education help the children - it didn't bankrupt the country, it enriched the lives of those children, and it enriched the country as a whole.


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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 6:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Excellent, KPO; I never stopped to think about it, but that's pretty much been the thrust of his arguments, so I think you may well be right.

As to the illogic of his reasoning, Kiki dear, the clue is right there before you: "very small amount of reflection". I doubt there's much reflection goes into it in this case, y'know? That's pretty much true when anyone has a bias, I think, especially when the bias is the kind of "I got mine, screw you" mentality. I guess it becomes "I got mine, you go get yours; if you weren't born in a position to get it (like me): screw you".

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 7:59 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Did the children make bad choices being born in poverty to illiterate parents?

I would love to hear his answer to this one, in particular.

Quote:

And what I hoped to argue for is a genuine example from the historical past - how it was that not only did government spending on behalf the the poor in the form of public education help the children - it didn't bankrupt the country, it enriched the lives of those children, and it enriched the country as a whole.

Proven Benefits of Early Childhood Interventions - http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9145/index1.html

"Well-designed early childhood interventions have been found to generate a return to society ranging from $1.80 to $17.07 for each dollar spent on the program."

It would seem to be win-win.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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