Why Is it Impossible to Stop Thinking, to Render the Mind a Complete Blank? by Niki2

Huh? Meditation, to the best of my knowledge, was never about getting the mind to stop working (a worrisome choice of words, heh?), it's about quieting the conscious mind. Finding the thoughts between our thoughts and then the thoughts between those. It's about being present because the conscious mind is always reflective and projective, ever so slightly disengaged. A conscious thought is always removed from the moment by the opperation of thinking.

Y'know, they've done studies that indicate that decisions are actually made moments before we become conscious of them as such. The subconscious mind is the one making all those survival calculations you mention. Meditation can lead to a more robust connection with the unconscious mind which can only improve one's survival skills and one's self-knowledge. The idea that meditation or quieting the mind is gonna interfere with health and survival is straight up gooftarded.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Huh, well the "meditation" used by Vaj doesn't begin by emptying or calming the conscious thoughts, but by accellerating them in a hyperfocus till they become a blur and then using the ascended consciousness to view it from a distance at which the patterns become recognizable, but anyhows...

There's also Zen-by-Doing, using a task so familiar that muscle memory can handle it for you to enter a contemplative state.

Many paths to that destination, there are.

-F

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:41 AM

My record is five minutes of slackjawed staring without brain thoughts. An alternative measure is to knock yourself out, but it's not one hundred percent, sometimes you dream.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Huh? Meditation, to the best of my knowledge, was never about getting the mind to stop working (a worrisome choice of words, heh?), it's about quieting the conscious mind. Finding the thoughts between our thoughts and then the thoughts between those. It's about being present because the conscious mind is always reflective and projective, ever so slightly disengaged. A conscious thought is always removed from the moment by the opperation of thinking.

Y'know, they've done studies that indicate that decisions are actually made moments before we become conscious of them as such. The subconscious mind is the one making all those survival calculations you mention. Meditation can lead to a more robust connection with the unconscious mind which can only improve one's survival skills and one's self-knowledge. The idea that meditation or quieting the mind is gonna interfere with health and survival is straight up gooftarded.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

^ Cav is fast becoming my RW hero. Everything he says here, and in many of his posts.

Doing Mindful Meditation, you observe the mind, rather than trying to quieten it. You accept you monkey mind, that given a chance it chatters, but by placing yourself outside that chatter as an observer, gives you those moments between thoughts. And the idea that the mind can observe the mind, is kind of well, mindblowing.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 10:58 AM

I don't believe in meditation, or that the subconscious is anything more than a clueless animalistic moron that likes to scare the bejesus out of your higher facilities.

It's all emotions. To be a fully functioning individual you have to combine emotions and logic, the subconscious is no more special than the consciousness, and I think it has no special answers, or race memories, or links to a human hive mind, or powers of the force that binds the galaxy together, or any of that.

So much of Jungian psychology and religion seems to be about finding answers. We don't know the answers ourselves, so we like to believe there's some special source within us, or outside us, that does. But there are no answers. Just existing.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:24 AM

You don't believe in meditation? That's like saying you don't believe in REM sleep. And it's kinda revealing that you think your own subconscious is an "animalistic moron." How are these conclusions of yours anything but whimsical? Why are you afraid of your subconscious?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 11:27 AM

I think the sociopath thread is enough psychoanalysis for me, it's not like you all don't already think I'm gloom and doom attention whore. Let alone that none of you ever believe me about anything I say anyway.

When you post some evidence that the subconscious is anything deep and meaningful and not a collection of meat like the rest of us, and that meditation consults a wellspring of deepseated unconscious wisdom... I'll probably still roll my eyes at meditation.

It's like this gluten-free stuff. Studies done about it, but it's still not all that convincing.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 12:02 PM

There is a fair amount of evidence of the positive effect of meditation on brain functioning.

Here is one, but a quick google will lead you to many.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100319210631.htm

Quote:
Neuroimaging studies by Malia F. Mason and co-workers at Dartmouth College NH suggest that the normal resting state of the brain is a silent current of thoughts, images and memories that is not induced by sensory input or intentional reasoning, but emerges spontaneously "from within."

"Spontaneous wandering of the mind is something you become more aware of and familiar with when you meditate," continues Ellingsen, who is an experienced practitioner. "This default activity of the brain is often underestimated. It probably represents a kind of mental processing that connects various experiences and emotional residues, puts them into perspective and lays them to rest."

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think the sociopath thread is enough psychoanalysis for me, it's not like you all don't already think I'm gloom and doom attention whore. Let alone that none of you ever believe me about anything I say anyway.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 12:24 PM

So an experienced practitioner interpreted neuroimaging in accord with his own beliefs. Is there any evidence that this constant activity is actually useful beyond baseline activity?

That our minds are basically neurons on ADHD is understood. But to tie that into meditation and unconscious knowledge or awareness is not necessarily a conclusion that follows.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 12:38 PM

Actually it is kind of the opposite, if you look at the evidence. Neuroscientists are not renowned for being practitioners of meditation, and in fact the interesting aspect has been the convergence of hard science with the kind of touchy feely spiritualism that hard science normally despises.

This is a surprising convergence that has led to many interesting discussions, experiments and thinking.

see http://books.google.com.au/books/about/The_Monk_and_the_Philosopher.ht
ml?id=LONQ47ZLaCQC&redir_esc=y

The facts are that you can now measure brain wave activity during a whole range of activities and science now backs up what a lot of people have experienced for 1000's of years.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 12:43 PM

Quote:
This is a surprising convergence that has led to many interesting discussions, experiments and thinking.

Sometimes thousands of years of knowledge can be wrong, even if they're long enduring ideas people want to believe. I think meditation is a placebo, if even that.

I'm not really swayed by a book that was specifically compiled, from studies that I already hold somewhat questionable, to prove a concept that I think is related to fallacies about "humans only using 10% of their mind" or psychic ability.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:02 PM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Getting my mind to stop working for meditation...i]

That's surprising because you've never had problems getting your mind to stop working when it comes to liberalism.

I'm just sayin...

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
This is a surprising convergence that has led to many interesting discussions, experiments and thinking.

Sometimes thousands of years of knowledge can be wrong, even if they're long enduring ideas people want to believe. I think meditation is a placebo, if even that.

I'm not really swayed by a book that was specifically compiled, from studies that I already hold somewhat questionable, to prove a concept that I think is related to fallacies about "humans only using 10% of their mind" or psychic ability.

The 1000's of years of anything certainly can be wrong. That is where the scientific evidence kicks in. It has certainly tested a lot of 'well known truths' and found no evidence for them. It has certainly tested meditation and found evidence for how it works.

But you appear to be closed minded (sic) regarding this. If you are not interested in even considering the evidence or the benefits, then there is little point in having these conversations.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:13 PM

Fair enough.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 2:13 PM

MAL4PREZ

Niki - I very much dislike "meditation" in the yoga sense. I cannot sit still and let my mind go to shiny wondrous places or whatever is supposed to happen. I understand that works for some, but I need a more active "freeing" of my mind.

My quest is not for an empty mind, but a mind without words. Sometime in my late 20's I started wondering about that. Being a scientist, my training is all about focusing on a string of logic in the conscious mind. Very much about words: "so x equals y and y equals... etc etc" Sure, there's intuition involved, but good science demands that you find logic to back up what intuition suggests. Otherwise, you're just being an emotion-guided logic-challenged self-will-run-riot Republican (that's to get back at Hero's dig.

)

One of the best ways I've found to meditate - to think without words, that is - is ice hockey. I can't describe how cool it is to have those ON moments in hockey. There is no time to think: "oh, the D is on her left foot, if I deke this way then cut back and I hear my teammate coming around behind me so I can pass it there..." No. None of that. You just kind of see it, the Path, and every once in a while it just happens like that. It's a *pure* moment.

I work toward this in dance and music too. I'm not a pro in any of these things, but I can find rare moments when I'm not planning, I'm not really aware of myself, but I let the activity take over.

It's not an empty mind, but at least it's empty of the usual clatter.

I may be crazy, but I find that, when no ice or dance studio or instrument is available, gaming can do something similar. Games that I'm familiar with so they're not too hard, or perhaps a puzzle. (ie jspuzzles.com) The game takes up the shallow level of my mind, and the underneath can go about its subconscious business.

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 3:44 PM

A lot of people get that icky response when they hear the term 'meditation' . They think about people dressed in orange cloth and chanting and it seems silly.

I've never learnt to do that traditional kind of meditation very successfully. One of the few scenes that I liked in Eat, Pray, Love (the book) was her internal dialogue when she is trying to quieten her mind in meditation at the ashram. Hilarious, totally related.

I do yoga and we end with a relaxation/meditation - guided. Very pleasant, but I often end up asleep, also very pleasant but not quite what is intended. I've done chanting which was fantastic. Can't explain how good it is in a group. Been on a couple of retreats. Find sitting too long too painful.

Then I did a Mindfulness course and it changed my life in very subtle but profound ways. Just the idea of being the non judgemental observer of yourself, your state of mind, your emotions, your thoughts. It's very soothing, and once you feel okay about the fact that your thoughts are messy, hard to control, manic, whatever...you can start to create a few spaces, maybe just a few seconds, where it isn't so messy. And you can do it anywhere, anytime. I don't recommend if when you are driving though ;)

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:01 PM

OONJERAH

Old quote Chrisisall: "This thread rocks!"

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Sunday, December 2, 2012 6:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
One of the best ways I've found to meditate - to think without words, that is - is ice hockey. I can't describe how cool it is to have those ON moments in hockey. There is no time to think: "oh, the D is on her left foot, if I deke this way then cut back and I hear my teammate coming around behind me so I can pass it there..." No. None of that. You just kind of see it, the Path, and every once in a while it just happens like that. It's a *pure* moment.

I work toward this in dance and music too. I'm not a pro in any of these things, but I can find rare moments when I'm not planning, I'm not really aware of myself, but I let the activity take over.

Known to my beliefs as Zen-by-Doing, yes, exactly this.

You get "in the zone" and stay there, that perfect, flawless moment of focus - I get like this it's actually like time itself slows down.
Mostly for me it's games - Anthony has gotten to see this from an external point of view a couple times, most memorable being Malinova map in World of Tanks.... I kinda more or less soloed the OTHER TEAM that day.

-Frem

ETA: For me there's an audio cue when this happens, kinda like a muted version of a missle lock tone.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 9:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

My apologies, Cav...you're obviously absolutely correct. I worded it wrong...not sure how "right" is, I guess to say it's been hard (if not impossible) to stop irrelevant thoughts from occurring so I CAN quiet my mind. It was definitely a worrisome choice of words, thank you. (By the way, I love gooftarded!) You explained it perfectly.

Yes, I'm "big" on the subconscious, I find it fascinating, but can usually only access it in dreams. And yes, Magons:

Quote:
You accept you monkey mind, that given a chance it chatters, but by placing yourself outside that chatter as an observer, gives you those moments between thoughts.

says it as well as Cav did.

Interestingly, I had precisely the same reaction to Byte's remarks as Cav did. You'll roll your eyes, as you promised, Byte, but I can guarantee the subconscious is more than just "meat", for me at least. My husband and friends have always been amused by my dreams, which quite frequently are wrapped around something I'm trying to figure out how to deal with. Pardon my making it "about me", but here's one example: During the "bad times" when we had custody of Jeff, Jim's son, I was very involved in trying to help them "get together", if you will. Jeff's destructiveness came out of him loving his dad but being afraid of him at the same time; Jim was unself-aware at the time and just frustrated by Jeff's destructiveness. I had a dream where Jim was standing on the shore of Marin, Jeff was standing in San Francisco, and I was this giant person straddling Alcatraz in the middle--try tho' I might, I couldn't read either of them. A lot of my dreams are like that, my subconscious portraying something that's worrying me in such an obvious "scenario" that's there's no mistaking what they're about.

I firmly believe in the subconscious, and I, too, wonder why you fear yours. It's all of a piece with what I've observed about you, but it saddens me nonetheless. "...our minds are basically neurons on ADHD"?? Wow. I hate to tell you, but I don't think that's "understood" by most anyone.

Cav, that was a PRICELESS response...prize for first giggle of the day, definitely. I think it is the ONLY response, given what Byte has said and that she has made it pretty clear her beliefs won't change no matter what.

Mal4, I'm afraid if you think meditation is sitting still and letting "my mind go to shiny wondrous places". There are no shiny wondrous places to go to, it doesn't work that way. Certainly it's something some people get something out of and others do not, but I think that is more a reflection of the individual than a statement on meditation. What I find amusing is that, although you get there by a different route than some, what you achieve IS a kind of meditation, in a round-about way. It's freeing the conscious, which is what makes the mind think "put my foot here and move there", and letting instinct take over. We do it every day in a million ways, the most obvious of which is driving. It's not meditation per se, but it's a kind of getting in touch with the subconscious, letting it take the reins, as it were. And man, it IS its own kind of high; I used to get it from dancing, too (tho' my form was folkdancing), and from dirt biking, and even jogging trails. Frem nailed it beautifully:

Quote:
You get "in the zone" and stay there, that perfect, flawless moment of focus - I get like this it's actually like time itself slows down.

Magons, that's all just plain NEAT! I've obviously got to read Eat, Pray, Love...satire is always wonderful and it's fun to laugh at something you've tried to do yourself. And yes, I've come close to falling asleep when meditating, too, usually when I haven't had enough sleep the night before! AND yes, chanting in temple with a whole room full of people is quite an experience. That last paragraph about the Mindfulness course hit me especially; that's what I've TRIED to do so many times, but I've yet to achieve those "spaces"...sigh...

Oonj, I fully agree!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 10:20 AM

Quote:
Byte, but I can guarantee the subconscious is more than just "meat", for me at least. My husband and friends have always been amused by my dreams, which quite frequently are wrapped around something I'm trying to figure out how to deal with

Look, I have weird dreams too, I even dream when I'm knocked unconscious, like I said. More than dreams, I have this almost uncanny ability to randomly predict something that later inevitably turns out to be true, and flashes of insight into other people's motivations and characters that allow me to deflate people with a single well-directed question or argument. I experience deju vu at least once a week, and every now and then, I'll see something happen in my mind, vividly like a photographic memory, and not three seconds later it will ACTUALLY happen as I'm already reacting to prevent it. I amuse myself by calling dice rolls and beating the odds in solitaire.

And it is all UTTERLY MUNDANE. Every single one of those things has a perfectly plausible real world explanation, primarily based in logic, partially based on hallucinogenic chemical imbalances and coincidence. My subconscious has nothing to do with it. Perhaps you experience differently with your notable experiences, but I speak as I find.

The only thing I'm aware of that I can scientifically and chemically argue that our subconscious can do is to scare us, anger us, or make us lust after something. It's the limbic system under our cerebral cortex, and most of the time we spend overriding its completely dumb impulses. When people admire the subconscious, it's only when it does something interesting, not all the other times when it does something pointless. And we don't give near the same credit to our higher thinking capabilities. Yet each is essential to function, and in most individuals, already functioning to our full capacity and awareness.

Quote:
In June, 2007 the United States National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine published an independent, peer-reviewed, meta-analysis of the state of research on meditation and health outcomes.[156] The report reviewed 813 studies in five broad categories of meditation: mantra meditation, mindfulness meditation, yoga, T'ai chi and Qigong. The result was mixed. The report concluded that "firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditation#Scientific_studies

While they did slate some effects of meditation for further investigation, results are by no means conclusive, and they also called for increased scientific rigour in the studies - meaning there's concerns there may be bias or data skew or false positives being glossed over.

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Monday, December 3, 2012 11:08 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, I give up--later than most, it would appear. I'll go with Cav's "facepalm" and let it go at that. I should have given up when he did.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 3:47 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think that meditation of various sorts can be quite helpful for some people, some people are able to derive benefits from it and other forms of directed energy. Mindfulness excercises can also be helpful. The thing is that I think everyone is different and so some people are able to do these things easier than others. I've never had a lot of success with these things, but I do like to listen to music and relax and breathe and see in my mind scenes that go with the music, I guess that's as close as I get.

For instance, I think different people's dreams serve different purposes. Niki's experience seems to be that her dreams show her what she's trying to work out. My dreams are merely my brain trying to clean itself out, because there's so much crap in there due to my mental health differences and how they manifest. My dreams have never foretold anything, they have never shown me insight into a problem I'm trying to solve, they are always unpleasant. My dad can lucid dream, he always has been able to since he was little and he finds it odd that I can't. The closest I ever get is occasional brief awareness during the dream that I'm dreaming, but then my dreamself gets distracted and forgets.

Niki and Cav put a lot of emphasis on the subconscious. I don't. I think that too much emphasis on it can actually be a bad thing and can distract one and cause confusion and blame. But everyone is different and has the right to persue what feels meaningful to them.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I think that too much emphasis on it can actually be a bad thing and can distract one and cause confusion and blame.

What does that mean?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 4:27 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

To me, the subconscious is merely impulses of thought which I am not aware of actively motivating.

It is beyond doubt to me that my mind carries on with such impulses. I feel this both in dreams and in moments of profound realization that crop up at times when I am not intentionally or actively directing my thoughts upon the subject in question.

At times, I wish for a greater communion between these unasked-for thought impulses and the others which are the product of my active direction.

At other times, I wonder if the large disconnect between those thoughts actively sought and 'accidentally' present is somehow to my benefit in ways I do not understand.

I do wish to learn more about the hidden machinations of the mind, and believe it to be a worthy topic of study.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 4, 2012 5:45 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I feel that sometimes too much emphasis on the subconscious, the asumption that we all have buried memories for example, can be harmful. Case in point: Some people are rather vulnerable for various reasons. A clever annalyst can influence people of that sort to "dredge up" memories that never really happened and think they were harmed by others who never really harmed them, thus causing everything to fall apart in their relationships with family etc. Obviously there are people who really do have repressed memories and in order to work through trauma those memories coming to the forefront can be ultimately helpful, so I'm not opposed to the practice in general, I just think that it can be done wrong and its something that people need to be very wary and careful about or else it can cause unnecessary trouble for those concerned.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:34 AM

Perhaps the more precise term is 'unconcious mind'

from wiki : The unconscious mind (or the unconscious) consists of the processes in the mind that occur automatically and are not available to introspection, and include thought processes, memory, affect, and motivation.[1] The term was coined by the 18th century German romantic philosopher Friedrich Schelling and later introduced into English by the poet and essayist Samuel Taylor Coleridge. The concept was developed and popularized by the Austrian neurologist and psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud. Empirical evidence suggests that unconscious phenomena include repressed feelings, automatic skills, subliminal perceptions, thoughts, habits, and automatic reactions,[1] and possibly also complexes, hidden phobias and desires. In psychoanalytic theory, unconscious processes are understood to be expressed in dreams in a symbolical form, as well as in slips of the tongue and jokes. Thus the unconscious mind can be seen as the source of dreams and automatic thoughts (those that appear without any apparent cause), the repository of forgotten memories (that may still be accessible to consciousness at some later time), and the locus of implicit knowledge (the things that we have learned so well that we do them without thinking).

It has been argued that consciousness is influenced by other parts of the mind. These include unconsciousness as a personal habit, being unaware, and intuition. Terms related to semi-consciousness include: awakening, implicit memory, subliminal messages, trances, hypnagogia, and hypnosis. While sleep, sleep walking, dreaming, delirium, and comas may signal the presence of unconscious processes, these processes are not the unconscious mind itself, but rather symptoms.

Some critics have doubted the existence of the unconscious.[2][3][4]

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 4:50 AM

Quote:
Some critics have doubted the existence of the unconscious.

That's actually kind of where I'm at. I don't think the processes attributed to this are separate and not integrated with a higher mind. I think these processes are all part of a whole. I think that we're already pretty aware, and don't really have secret intuitive knowledge on another level that we aren't aware of and have to unlock. I also think all of our functioning is pretty close to 100% of capacity. I say functioning, because using 100% of the brain's neurons at the same time isn't a higher state of enlightenment, it's a grand mal seizure.

Meditation as a technique or ritual might make some people feel better prepared or more focused, but not everyone. There's no proposed method of action to this, which is why I think the effects might be primarily placebo and psychosomatic.

Because of this, I am not sure it is scientific. People are trying to measure and quantify the after effects, but it is difficult to measure and quantify the core concepts - the unconscious/subconscious as people define it seems to be an inherently unknowable and unmeasurable thing. Even meditation, as seen here, has a number of different styles and meanings.

Also, the article in the original post - the evolutionary selection that it implicates is a little off. Humans are one of the few animals that actually retreat to a safe location to sleep with our full brains, a trait shared with alpha predators and primates, and not shared with open land herd and prey animals, who don't sleep in the same way. I am not sure about humans being a favourite food source, if we evolved as beach dwellers with a taste for salts and oceanic fish, though it is true that humans had some near extinction events. It's possible that our primate sleeping patterns helped us develop and sustain more intense and efficient bursts of brain activity when we weren't sleeping, and developing a more efficient digestive system gave us more energy for our brains to use as well.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 5:35 AM

I just gotta say, and oh well, that the thought of a writer of fiction who doesn't know she has a subconscious mind perplexes me no end. Every artist I have ever known, personally at least, knows perfectly well that many of their best ideas have come into their work without their conscious knowledge or control. Often these deeper meanings and systems of thought within their work have had powerful therapeutic impact on their conscious minds. Other times not so much.

I had a friend in college who was very prolific and wrote many strange and funny and beautiful plays and because I lived with him I could tell he was writing about this or that ex-girlfriend or about his dad or some such when he thought he was just makin' shit up, as it were. I'd tell him what I saw and it would blow his mind for days. Then he'd go back to a given piece and rework it with this conscious awareness of its themes and improve the thing tremendously.

Western culture's understanding of the sub/unconscious seems always to be laced with paranoia and a sense of powerlessness. "The unknown" frightens us and we'll go to every length to deny and ignore it. Western science has been hijacked by our phobic selves to further alienate ourselves from ourselves and morphed into the sad pseudo-religion of scientific materialism.

Whereas in the East and in shamanistic cultures the unconscious content of our lives is understood to be available to practitioners of various disciplines. The inner esoteric traditions even within the west, alchemy and such, speak of "educating" the unconscious and creating rituals to enact a dialogue between our conscious selves and the unconscious knowledge and wisdom of our psyches. In Kabbalistic teaching the story of Genesis is understood to be a parable about the conscious and unconscious mind embodies in the persons of Adam and Eve. It's a fascinating study. And again, all the artists I've known have had at least an instinctual awareness of what I'm talking about here.

Healing is a largely unconscious process which we can, and in some cases must, learn to access on a conscious level to effect positive change in our lives. Otherwise, we can become the victims of our subconscious jailers, our fears and self-loathing, coming to believe that what we think is true actually is true when it may only be our conscious perception or a mere habit of thought, always limited, always dwarfed by the vast ocean of the unconscious.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 5:45 AM

Quote:
"The unknown" frightens us and we'll go to every length to deny and ignore it. Western science has been hijacked by our phobic selves to further alienate ourselves from ourselves and morphed into the sad pseudo-religion of scientific materialism.

...

Okay, so in between making insinuations about my (admittedly bad) psychological state, you're basically admitting you can't quantify any of this.

If you can't quantify it or define it, I have no place here. Believe as you will, and know that you can't test or prove any of it. I imagine you'll feel proud of that. Just watch out for charlatans, they like to take advantage of the things no one can prove.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 7:44 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You're getting defensive again, in my opinion, Byte, and taking things personally which weren't intended so. I believe Cav was speaking in general--as noted by his "Western science", not aiming anything at you. I could be wrong, but that's how I took it, as a point in a debate about the subconscious mind and how it is viewed in different cultures and by different people.

"I imagine you'll feel proud about that" is a pretty obvious snark, and from what I know of Cav, he won't feel "proud" about anything he wrote. He's just expressing his own beliefs.

As to "proof", I'm not going to take the time to look it up, but I believe there are numerous studies proving the existence of the subconscious and how it affects our lives.

The dangers of "memories" which have actually been implanted are well known and definitely harmful. Another danger is that opening up the subconscious can bring awareness of things which are dangerous to the conscious mind, especially if the conscious mind isn't ready to acknowledge them. That's one reason EMDR is dangerous in the wrong hands. Often the subconscious keeps from us things which we need to forget, or aren't yet ready to confront, and that can be far more harmful than helpful. The subconscious IS subconscious for a reason.

We can only agree to disagree about the subconscious mind; in my opinion your beliefs are rigid and judgmental, so attempting to debate the matter with you is impossible. Debating its existence or that it does no good is probably pretty impossible with me, as well, since my own personal experience has shown otherwise. So I'll agree to disagree and let it go at that.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 8:08 AM

Quote:
You're getting defensive again, in my opinion, Byte, and taking things personally which weren't intended so. I believe Cav was speaking in general--as noted by his "Western science", not aiming anything at you. I could be wrong

You just saw HK try to bring up my "subconscious issues" and my "habit of thought" in the other thread. Every other thing HK said above in that response to me was a pot shot. Right down to that little snark about self-loathing and healing through positive thinking. Because clearly, I'll stop being self-loathing if I wish hard enough that I wasn't terrible, get in touch with my feminine side, and make some jambalaya.

Quote:
So I'll agree to disagree and let it go at that.

Okay.

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 10:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
To me, the subconscious is merely impulses of thought which I am not aware of actively motivating.

It is beyond doubt to me that my mind carries on with such impulses. I feel this both in dreams and in moments of profound realization that crop up at times when I am not intentionally or actively directing my thoughts upon the subject in question.

At times, I wish for a greater communion between these unasked-for thought impulses and the others which are the product of my active direction.

At other times, I wonder if the large disconnect between those thoughts actively sought and 'accidentally' present is somehow to my benefit in ways I do not understand.

I do wish to learn more about the hidden machinations of the mind, and believe it to be a worthy topic of study.

Okay, this is gonna drift from topic, and might run long, but imma expound at length about it cause it revolves around a recent rethinking which I believe answers the question of why the abused kid survival rate is so drastically skewed in regards to gender...

See, humans are biologically hardwired with certain predispositions, and that for you Anthony, a lot of them are survival-related, some perhaps outdated by our society, and some most certainly not, which becomes problematic, sure.

What drives a lot of aberrant behavior in childhood is IMHO the mixed messages that children recieve when what they are being "taught", intentionally or otherwise, comes into conflict with those natural impulses - for example it is the NATURE of humans to share and cooperate, but when one is TAUGHT to be selfish and exploit/abuse/mislead others, it creates all kind of mental static that can manifest as "behavioral problems"... first of this, or usually the first clash, is being taught to lie.

Children have both an inherent honesty, and do *NOT* have the "filters" we have on worldview cause they've not developed them - they actually see the sick homeless guy who never makes it past your consciousness, they see the "wrong" in situations we've long trained ourselves to accept as a matter of course, another place trying to reconcile opposing values does them harm - for the first person a child is taught to lie to, is themself.

The human subconscious has defenses against that, whether they be intentional or not I couldn't say, but by default nature usually wins that contest, proof of that lies in how any sufficient deception will not hold up over time, with extraordinarily rare exceptions they *will* give themselves away no matter how skilled they are - it takes an amazing amount of abuse and conditioning to make a human being inherently dishonest, and the resultant psychological damage usually leaves them ineffective at it.

Anyhows, for some, meditation is kind of like tuning in to listen to those impulses suppressed by social conditioning, seeking the voice of the lost and broken child within - or reaching deeper, and finding something.... darker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29
We all have the beast within, it's directly related to the HPA axis of the brain and the fight/freeze/flight instinct, those in tune with it can actually USE this to their advantage, and some military training/conditioning is a kind of halfassed, assbackwards attempt to teach this.

Which, brings me to why the gender gap in abuse survival.
See, the earlier you start screwing up a kids brain, the harder it becomes to fix, and if the damage gets done during critical developmental periods, barring early intervention it's all but permanent.
Beyond that, early damage is the hardest also cause it's festered and begun to calcify, become part of the personality itself, and that's a nightmare to deal with when it happens cause you're talking about the very foundation of WHO THEY ARE...
(And yes, I am bloody well aware this is why I will NEVER voluntarily disarm, ever.)

Which brings up gender roles and concepts in relation to when and how the damage is done, you see.
Boys we screw up right off the bat, teach them violence, might-makes-right, emotional suppression, cut them off from coping skills, discourage cooperation and encourage an often ruthless competitive streak which DOES have its Shadow counterpart down there as a secondary drive related to survival OUTSIDE of a group setting - it's not a primary drive, but if you suppress the primary drives, there are secondaries which take over, also a source of mental static and confusion with emotional overtones which causes acting out, a coping mechanism shut down by social pressure as soon as it even forms.

Factually, you do NOT "toughen up" kid by mistreating them, but by treating them with mercy and kindness - those who have NOT been mistreated have more coping skills and tools, and are far less likely to resort to violence, but of course self-perpetuating social myths are hard to break when the victims of them sell them down the line in the cycle of abuse.

Conversely, we don't generally jump right into crushing the personhood of girls, they're EXPECTED to have emotional outbursts, to feel, to cooperate, to care - we ALLOW them to be who they are.
Now there's the rare exception, particularly some pyscho tigermom wannabe shoving their girl at talent contests and whatnot, but overall we don't get into REALLY trashing the humanity of girls till we start teaching them greed, jealousy and materialism, which usually comes AFTER the critical developmental stages.

The difference here is legion - picture a slab of concrete.
Now, picture that concrete with some rebar tacked onto the outside - not so hard to remove, yes?
Now, picture that concrete with the rebar having been in there when it was poured - try getting THAT out, ehe ?
http://www.childtrauma.org/index.php/articles/articles-for-professiona
ls
Bunch of stuff here, heavy reading and you'll need a PDF reader, but it forms the original background for what we're now calling the Neurosequential Model.
http://www.childtrauma.org/index.php/articles/cta-neurosequential-mode
l

Basically, the earlier you screw em up, the worse off they are, and the harder it is to fix.
But if they have passed most of the critical development periods and have a more solid personhood in place already they have some level of defense and the mistreatment is not internalized, nor fully integrated.
And THAT, is what has been skewing abuse survival rates by gender, I do believe.

-Frem

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Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:42 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Interesting theory about abuse survival Frem, I see what you're saying but I'll have to think about it some more.

As for what makes a person artistic, I think that can vary. Creativity is such a wide ranging thing and so it can come from many places within us.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 9:14 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Because clearly, I'll stop being self-loathing if I wish hard enough that I wasn't terrible

Obviously that is not what he said, nor is it what he meant, and the rest of that sentence is just snarking.

That you choose to wallow in self-loathing is extremely sad; that you're absolutely determined not to even try to do anything about it makes me disrespect you. You are pre-determining your entire life on a false premise, and categorically determined to remain that way. I'll never understand why you would want that any more than I'll understand your absolutism on that and dismissing the subconscious, nor most of the rest of your reasoning. You just seem to take things personally and to the extreme, very angry at anyone disagreeing with you, and little else.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:28 AM

Quote:
Obviously that is not what he said

Obviously not? No, Niki, that is exactly what he said and meant.

You, on the other hand, are entirely sincere. This is why I was convinced by all of you that Oonj wasn't actually taking shots at me. But then after THAT thread, she posted another one immediately after about discussing psychology where she did, and I called her out, and she admitted to it. There are parallels here to that situation.

I'm a bundle of anger. I've never misrepresented that to any of you. But I'm not really angry at ANY of you anymore. How could I be? None of you actually know or care about me or accept me for what I am. And I shouldn't have ever thought you might.

Go back to talking about meditation, the only thing that was personal about this thread was your previous post, and HK's. I will not intervene.

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 11:10 AM

Byte,

Would ya please acknowledge that you don't understand a thing I said, so you're in no position to presume that I'm taking "pot shots" or "snarking" or that I "don't care?" None of which is true. You mischaracterize my words continually and refuse even to acknowledge the denotative difference between "less human" and "less than human." I find your reasoning here and in the sociopath thread wildly specious and overwhelmed by your paranoia. If I tell you so, it's not a "pot shot" or "snarking," it's feedback. You're fully capable of making a well reasoned argument on other topics but here you barely seem to bother. If you don't want feedback on your posts, then don't post. Simple. (And before you get your hackles up, no, that doesn't mean I want you to leave. Please, read with less prejudice.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 11:30 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmations_%28New_Age%29

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=affir
mations+and+the+subconscious&oq=affimations+and+&gs_l=hp.1.1.0i13l4.1216.3752.0.5601.16.15.0.0.0.1.545.3363.0j7j7j5-1.15.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.zThQjknVvqs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=36ad7c0967172426&bpcl=39650382&biw=1044&bih=315

Perhaps when someone disagrees with you, it is not because they do not understand what you
are talking about.

Perhaps you should also not assume that disagreement with you is a sign of a flaw in the
argument. It is just a disagreement. Ultimately we cannot prove or disprove any of this.
And it is not my job to disprove it. You may recommence discussion.

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 3:39 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
None of you actually know or care about me or accept me for what I am.

Hello,

Who can truly know anyone when peering through this veil?

But I care about you, and I accept what I perceive about you. Not to be confused with what I'm told I should be perceiving about you.

--Anthony

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 4:12 PM

Really, Byte? A wikipedia page on "New Age affirmations?" Wow.

Where did I say anything about "New Age affirmations?" If you honestly think I've been advocating "New Age affirmation" as some kind of cure-all for your woes then you definitively, QED, don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

This is just sad.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 4:45 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Cav, you do come across as quite New Agey, just so you know. that's not a good or a bad thing, its just a perception that comes from how you present your ideas, so I see where she gets that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:13 PM

Quote:

This is just sad.

On this, we agree. This is not a beneficial conversation for either of us.

Are you going to talk about meditation now?

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Thursday, December 6, 2012 6:33 PM

Wow, I'm kind of blown away that a discussion on meditation gets to this level of .....animosity?

I'm not sure how it could get to this point. Very strange.

Meditation is a useful technique, as is mindfulness, as is relaxation, breathing, yoga and so on.

There is some research around which gives an indication of how meditation impacts on the brain, and its positive benefits.

A lot of people who use it find it positive. I did, and the research kind of confirmed what I knew experientially.

I don't feel the need to do qualitive evaluation on the research, because its more kind of 'oh that is interesting' and a topic for discussion. Even if the research proved nothing, I'd still do yoga and mindful practise because its useful for me. I like it. It helps physically because I get lots of joint pain and it helps mentally with my anxiety. It is a useful practise for me, and I am happy to discuss it in any way with anyone who is interested.

If you don't like it, if it seems too 'New Age', or you find the research dubious, then don't do it. It's not compulsory. I wouldn't even begin to talk someone into doing it. I don't even know why you would bother to have these conversations. Why do you feel the need to?

Personally, I cant stand a lot of the affirmation stuff... Louise Hay is a freak in my opinion, and learned optimism and those sort of concepts do nothing for me. But they are not the same as meditation. Meditation is not 'thinking positively' nor is it bright and fluffy. There is acceptance in a lot of these practises, for the good, the bad, the difficult and the downright ugly.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2012 10:48 AM

sometimes its about just taking time out from our chaotic overcrowded, overstimulated lives.

When was the last time you turned your phone off, were concious but not looking at a screen, not speaking to someone, not listing the things you needed to do in your head?

"Body Scan Meditation
Lie on your back with your legs uncrossed, your arms at your sides, palms up, and your eyes open or closed, as you wish. Focus on your Breathing, how the air moves in and out of your body. After several deep breaths, as you begin to feel comfortable and relaxed, direct your attention to the toes of your left foot. Tune into any sensations in that part of your body while remaining aware of your Breathing. It often helps to imagine each breath flowing to the spot where you're directing your attention. Focus on your left toes for one to two minutes.

Then move your focus to the sole of your left foot and hold it there for a minute or two while continuing to pay attention to your breathing. Follow the same procedure as you move to your left ankle, calf, knees, thigh, hip and so on all around the body. Pay particular attention to any areas that cause pain or are the focus of any medical condition (for Asthma, the lungs; for Diabetes, the pancreas). Pay particular attention to the head: the jaw, chin, lips, tongue, roof of the mouth, nostrils, throat, cheeks, eyelids, eyes, eyebrows, forehead, temples and scalp.

Finally, focus on the very top of your hair, the uppermost part of your body. Then let go of the body altogether, and in your mind, hover above yourself as your breath reaches beyond you and touches the universe. "

If that last bit feels too hippy icky, leave it off.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2012 11:33 AM

EDIT: Nevermind.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2012 3:30 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
One of the best ways I've found to meditate - to think without words, that is - is ice hockey. I can't describe how cool it is to have those ON moments in hockey. There is no time to think: "oh, the D is on her left foot, if I deke this way then cut back and I hear my teammate coming around behind me so I can pass it there..." No. None of that. You just kind of see it, the Path, and every once in a while it just happens like that. It's a *pure* moment.

I work toward this in dance and music too. I'm not a pro in any of these things, but I can find rare moments when I'm not planning, I'm not really aware of myself, but I let the activity take over.

Known to my beliefs as Zen-by-Doing, yes, exactly this.

You get "in the zone" and stay there, that perfect, flawless moment of focus - I get like this it's actually like time itself slows down.
Mostly for me it's games - Anthony has gotten to see this from an external point of view a couple times, most memorable being Malinova map in World of Tanks.... I kinda more or less soloed the OTHER TEAM that day.

-Frem

ETA: For me there's an audio cue when this happens, kinda like a muted version of a missle lock tone.

Sorry, I got away from the web for a while and haven't caught up with the thread yet. Just want to post something, since this seems the place to bond with gamers, as no one in my real life is likely to appreciate this.

I found a video of someone just *killing* a really evil DOOM wad file. Yes, it's 3 hours long, and yes, I watched it all. 20,000 monsters dead in 3 hours of non-stop gameplay. I don't have the fortitude to learn how to beat such a game myself, (which I'm OK with for my own good - reference SouthPark's WOW episode) but I find it oddly hypnotic to watch. A side of me worships whatever freaky teenager pulled this off.

If you've ever played DOOM, you'll appreciate how damned nuts it is.

I'll add that I'm (clearly!) an out of touch gamer. I don't let myself bond with new games often, as I have a tendency to get addicted. Hence the DOOM fascination. It's too late to avoid that addiction.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2012 3:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

In my youth, (Senior year of High School if memory serves) I used to play DOOM with a friend on a primitive LAN my Dad set up in the house, while the home stereo played the Desperado soundtrack at formidable volume.

Eventually we moved on to Quake and whatnot, but my fondest first-person-shooter memories will always be of Doom.

--Anthony

ETA: More likely during my brief stint at college, according to my research on when the Desperado soundtrack was released.

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Tuesday, December 11, 2012 3:52 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,

In my youth, (Senior year of High School if memory serves) I used to play DOOM with a friend on a primitive LAN my Dad set up in the house, while the home stereo played the Desperado soundtrack at formidable volume.

Eventually we moved on to Quake and whatnot, but my fondest first-person-shooter memories will always be of Doom.

--Anthony

ETA: More likely during my brief stint at college, according to my research on when the Desperado soundtrack was released.

Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

Yeah, I will also have fond memories of DOOM always. Quake, also. How good to be able to look at angles!

If you don't have 3 hours to spare, just watch the last 15-20 minutes of the link I posted. Those monsters that scare me when I face 2 or 3? This player is facing HUNDREDS. Proof of the subconscious mind, I think, that he/she can avoid so much fire and get through that.

My first realization of the subconscious was something even more impressive: Rachmaninoff's piano concertos. The conscious mind can never, ever process so fucking many notes in real time and make the fingers get there. Only the subconscious can do that, after years of training and a unique ability to let go of control and let the subconscious drive.

Also, I've now caught up with the thread and like others I'm shocked at how weird it got. Damn, Byte. Go play DOOM and take your shit out on demons. Someday you might realize that, in real life as opposed to video games, you are not on the top of everyone's list of targets. No one's out to get you. Chill the fuck out already!

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Tuesday, December 11, 2012 5:18 PM