Quote:

---

Originally posted by Radhil:
Could we please wait until after basic fact is beyond question before we string out the baseless accusations?

Oh, right, Republicans don't do that.

The CBS News desk is the one that produced these memos - they are the ones to keep eyes on if we want to know where they actually came from. So far, they have been reluctant to say, other than citing one source and claiming the memos were verified independently (and not saying by whom). Wait until that's uncovered, and if it turns out true, shit on Kerry all you like.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Radhil:
Could we please wait until after basic fact is beyond question before we string out the baseless accusations?

Oh, right, Republicans don't do that.

The CBS News desk is the one that produced these memos - they are the ones to keep eyes on if we want to know where they actually came from. So far, they have been reluctant to say, other than citing one source and claiming the memos were verified independently (and not saying by whom). Wait until that's uncovered, and if it turns out true, shit on Kerry all you like.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
The fact that the White House has no problem censoring the public record, a federal offence, says a lot.

It's been well known for years that during the Vietnam War (oh sorry, the Vietnam Conflict, Americas other illegal war of death and murder) GWB was a drunken, drugged out, daddies boy and a general little shit who dodged the draft simply by being one of Americas elite.

It's public record... or it was.

To offset these facts the the Republican Camp actually made ads attacking the Democrate Kerry' who has a crystal clear combat record and service.

While other Americans were being drafted into death patrols, GWB was at a party... drunk and stoned.

Your president... a liar, a cheat, a killer, and drunk.

Nice thread... shows I'm right about you little...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
"Nuclear Weapons Found in Iraq"

Typical of right-wingers. Jumping all over something before the facts. But then, facts really don't seem to matter even afterwards either.

It doesn't matter that ObL is still at large, that no WMD were ever found, that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11 and was not a security threat to the USA, that the tax cuts really only "stimuated" the ultra-wealthy and that the deficit is ballooning out of sight... these guys just keep listening to that happy music in their heads and then wonder what the h*ll happened when reality bites.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Typical of right-wingers. Jumping all over something before the facts. But then, facts really don't seem to matter even afterwards either.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SergeantX:
This election should stand as proof-positive that plurality voting, and the two party system, have become monumental wastes of time and money. We'd get better leaders (more honest at least) if we just had a nationwide lottery. Every four years we go through this ridiculous charade, each time more embarassing than the last. There are sensible fixes for this nonsense easily within our reach and we continue to put up with it.

http://www.constitution.org/voting/voting.htm

http://www.approvalvoting.org/

Anybody besides me see the system as the problem? Out of over 250 million people, are Bush and Kerry seriously the best we can do??? I just can't accept that.



SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer:
...Also still researching early '70s typewriter fonts.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer:
...Also still researching early '70s typewriter fonts.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

---

Hmm. Still no luck on the superscripts, but I did find some paper documents in my old files that were typed on an IBM Selectric I back in the early '70s. They are Courier New font, just like the memos in question, and one defining feature is that the periods are slightly subscripted (below the line). The memos don't have this subscrition of the periods. maybe a different typewriter? I'll try to find a Xerox daisywheel.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Geezer
Looks like neither side is above a little knavery relating to ancient history.

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from CNN article
Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript -- a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" -- as evidence indicating forgery.

---

Quote:

---

excerpted from http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_09_05.php#003462
I'm actually supposed to be on semi-vacation here at the ocean. But let me offer an update on this memo business. One of the guys who was in the mix in all of this at the time -- Hodges -- told CBS that these documents accurately reflected Killian's thinking at the time. On top of that, the White House -- and thus the president -- made no effort to question the story the documents tell. That tells me that they know the underlying story -- or at least some rough approximation of it -- is true.
All that said, however, the questions raised about these documents seem very compelling. And though those points above are telling about the underlying story, I can't see where they tell us much meaningful about the authenticity of these documents
…
If a few qualified experts came forward and said, 'Well, those criticisms don't add up if you know the subject. And the bottom line is that there's nothing about these documents that raise any question about their being produced in the early seventies" that would be plenty for me -- because I don't have the expertise to evaluate the criticisms and the defenses in the face of such expert opinion.
But I'm not hearing anyone say anything like that. In fact, rather the contrary.
The ball is in the court of the publishers of these documents to authenticate them. And so far I'm not hearing any adequate defense.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:

The prime candidate for having them discovered as forgeries, in my mind, is Karl Rove (he of the bugged office and the videotape of Bush's practice debate). The reason being to discredit all the other evidence that Bush needed help to get his Honorable Discharge. The uproar over the possibility that these memos are forgeries has overshadowed all the other stuff about this topic.

---

Quote:

---

The second part of the argument is that the presence of the superscript means this was done on a word processor instead of a typewriter. Here's a link to one of the earlier documents released by the Bush administration from the President's files. Note that there is a superscript on the second typed line (once again, stringing out the link):
http://users.cis.net/ coldfeet/ doc10.gif
So if the presence of a superscript in a typed document from the early 1970s means that document is forged, then Bush's file has other forgeries.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
I noticed CNN has dropped the proportional font part of the argument. Probably due to the fact that IBM typewriters have had that feature since 1941. Here's an advertisement from 1954 touting that particular feature (I strung out the link so the picture wouldn't load):
http:// www.etypewriters.com/ 1954-b-2.JPG
The second part of the argument is that the presence of the superscript means this was done on a word processor instead of a typewriter. Here's a link to one of the earlier documents released by the Bush administration from the President's files. Note that there is a superscript on the second typed line (once again, stringing out the link):
http://users.cis.net/ coldfeet/ doc10.gif
So if the presence of a superscript in a typed document from the early 1970s means that document is forged, then Bush's file has other forgeries.
I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

---

Quote:

---

And this gets to the more interesting part of this episode: who would forge documents and for what reason? There are two reasons to forge these documents: to have them taken seriously or to have them discovered as forgeries.

---

Quote:

---

For instance, the White House has said at least once before that they've released all documents related to Bush's service. But just last week, after a lengthy FOIA lawsuit from the AP, some additional records were released. That's pretty serious to me, the White House just straight up lied until they were compelled legally.

---

Quote:

---

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Bush was ranked in the middle of his Air National Guard class and flew more than 336 hours in a fighter jet before letting his pilot status lapse and missing a key readiness drill, according to his flight records belatedly uncovered Tuesday under the Freedom of Information Act.

The Pentagon and Bush's campaign have claimed for months that all records detailing his fighter pilot career have been made public, but defense officials said they found two dozen new records detailing his training and flight logs after The Associated Press filed a lawsuit and crafted new requests under the public records law.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Connorflynn
The only problem with that theory, is that all the other lines where the same text (111th) comes up DO NOT have the superscript. I'm thinking the image has been doctored, to further someones argument. PS thanks for the link.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
It's too bad the people who keep spewing this crap don't ever get embarassed about being so wrong so often.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
Funny, tho- the right wingers will move heaven and earth to put Dan Rather under the gun, but when it comes to treason (revealing an undercover CIA officer's name)... HEY, NO PROBLEM! Robert Novak gets a free ride!

Well, I never expected rationality (as in proportionality) from the right wing, so I'm not disappointed.

---

Quote:

---

From the Dallas Morning News
Former secretary says she didn't type memos

10:51 PM CDT on Tuesday, September 14, 2004

By PETE SLOVER / The Dallas Morning News

HOUSTON – The former secretary for the Texas Air National Guard colonel who supposedly authored memos critical of President Bush’s Guard service said Tuesday that the documents are fake, but that they reflect real documents that once existed.

Marian Carr Knox, who worked from 1957 to 1979 at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston, said she prided herself on meticulous typing, and the memos first disclosed by CBS News last week were not her work.

“These are not real,” she told The Dallas Morning News after examining copies of the disputed memos for the first time. “They’re not what I typed, and I would have typed them for him.”

Mrs. Knox, 86, who spoke with precise recollection about dates, people and events, said she is not a supporter of Mr. Bush, who she deemed “unfit for office” and “selected, not elected.”

“I remember very vividly when Bush was there and all the yak-yak that was going on about it,” she said.

But, she said, telltale signs of forgery abounded in the four memos, which contained the supposed writings of her ex-boss, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984.

She said the typeface on the documents did not match either of the two typewriters that she used during her time at the Guard. She identified those machines as a mechanical Olympia, which was replaced by an IBM Selectric in the early 1970s.

She spoke fondly of the Olympia machine, which she said had a key with the “th” superscript character that was the focus of much debate in the CBS memos. Experts have said that the Selectric, and mechanical typewriters such as the Olympia, could not produce proportional spacing, found in the disputed documents.

CBS officials have defended their report. They have declined to say who provided 60 Minutes with the documents, other than that it was an “unimpeachable source” – or exactly where they came from, other than Lt. Col. Killian’s “personal file.”

The memos, if real, would show that as a pilot, Mr. Bush defied a direct order to obtain a flight physical, enjoyed the benefit of pressure from high officials to “sugar coat” his record, and was grounded for failing to meet military performance standards.

Mrs. Knox said she did all of Lt. Col. Killian’s typing, including memos for a personal “cover his back” file he kept in a locked drawer of his desk.

She said she did not recall typing the memos reported by CBS News, though she said they accurately reflect the viewpoints of Lt. Col. Killian and documents that would have been in the personal file. Also, she could not say whether the CBS documents corresponded memo for memo with that file.

“The information in here was correct, but it was picked up from the real ones,” she said.

She said that the culture of the time was that men didn’t type office-related documents, and she expressed doubt that Lt. Col. Killian would have typed the memos. She said she would typically type his memos from his handwritten notes, which she would then destroy.

Mrs. Knox, who left the Guard before Lt. Col. Killian died, said she was not sure of the disposition of his personal files when he died while still serving at Ellington. But, she said, it would have been logical that a master sergeant who worked in the squadron headquarters would have destroyed any such nonofficial documents after Lt. Col. Killian’s death.

That man, reached Tuesday, declined to comment. “I don’t know anything about the matter,” he said.

She also said the memos may have been constructed from memory by someone who had seen Lt. Col. Killian’s private file but were not transcriptions because the language and terminology did not match what he would have used.

For instance, she said, the use of the words “billets” and a reference to the “administrative officer” of Mr. Bush’s squadron reflect Army terminology rather than the Air National Guard. Some news reports attribute the CBS reports to a former Army National Guard officer who has a longstanding dispute with the Guard and has previously maintained that the president’s record was sanitized.

Mrs. Knox also cited stylistic differences in the form of the notes, such as the signature on the right side of the document, rather than the left, where she would have put it.

E-mail pslover@dallasnews.com

---

Quote:

---

From USAToday.com
Secretary: Memos are forgeries
By Jim Drinkard and Dave Moniz, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — The former secretary to a Texas Air National Guard officer who purportedly wrote memos critical of President Bush's pilot service said Tuesday that the documents are forgeries but they appear to reflect memos her boss wrote and kept in a locked desk drawer.

Marian Carr Knox told the Dallas Morning News after viewing copies of the disputed memos, "These are not real," and that "the information in here was correct, but it was picked up from the real ones." She declined to be interviewed late Tuesday, but her son, Pat Carr, confirmed her comments.

The newspaper said that Knox, 86, had precise recollection about dates, people and events. She was critical of Bush, whom she called "unfit for office."

The memos, first reported last week by CBS' 60 Minutes and obtained independently by USA TODAY, were critical of Bush's performance as a pilot. They say he sought special treatment to get out of required drills and failed to get a required physical exam, and that there was pressure from his commander's superiors to "sugar coat" his personnel evaluation. Document experts have challenged their authenticity.

Knox told the Morning News that she did all of the typing for Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, Bush's commander, and she did not type the memos in question. The typewriters she used, a manual Olympia and later an IBM Selectric, could not have produced the documents, she said.

Another former Texas National Guard officer, Richard Via, also said that the documents were fakes but that their content reflected questions about Bush that were discussed at the time in the hangar at Ellington Air Force Base, where he had a desk next to Killian's.

Via said he and others he worked with "remember the physical, and him going to Alabama was an issue." He said Killian "made notes and put them in his files about things like that."

Killian kept the files because "he was trying to cover his ass," Via said. "He was always worried something would come back on him."

He said Killian's secretary "would type them up, and he'd put it in his desk drawer and lock it."

First lady Laura Bush told an Iowa radio station Monday that the memos "probably are forgeries, and I think that's terrible, really." White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters Tuesday that despite those comments, the White House has taken no position on whether the documents are fake.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
To make this more explicit-

When Valerie Plame was "outed", where was the hue and cry about the danger that this poses to active field officers? The precedent that this sets when the Adminsitration outs an officer (who is protecting our security) for political reasons? The complicity of the press in doing something that is CLEARLY beyond the law? The right wing has to ask themselves where were they before?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
I completely agree with you Signym. One of the most jaw dropping parts of this whole story is Robert Novak calling for CBS to release their sources (Jon Stewart came late to this theme last night but had a pretty good section on it). I personally happen to believe that Novak should not be required to reveal his source. Sure he was a slime to out a CIA agent. But journalistic sources should be protected. ...

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM
Just out of curiosity, what does your family see in Bush?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ Wow. I mean wow. That's got to be the most eloquent post I've read here.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ and I too wonder if those documents are real. They do seem to be highly suspicious. Still it's nothing compared to the public documents that show Bushes Guard records were tampered less than a year ago. They plan ahead these Bushites.

Do I think Dan Rather fugged up? *pfft*, sure! After all... this whole 'fake docs' issue has served the Bushites beautifully. Nice little rat fuck eh? 'Course, it's just my observation.

FYI - rat fucking is what campaign people call 'dirty tricks' in campaigning.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:
Even the people closest to the origin of the memos, such as Killian's secretary, agree that the memos accurately reflect the concerns and issues of the time.

---

Quote:

---

What should have the real impact is who was trying to game whom with the fakes.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SignyM:

Quote:

---

What should have the real impact is who was trying to game whom with the fakes.

---

This is a VERY limited and non-contextual view of the issue. Why would you just go to that point and stop?

---