If pot were legal... by kpo

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

If pot were legal...

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Saturday, January 19, 2013 22:21
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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:00 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

I had to split up the link to make it fit the page width:

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2012/07/how_much_
would_legal_marijuana_cost_a_new_book_says_it_would_be_nearly_free_.html

Quote:
Another way of looking at it, suggested by California NORML Director Dale Gieringer, is that we should expect legal pot to cost about the same amount as “other legal herbs such as tea or tobacco,” something perhaps “100 times lower than the current prevailing price of $300 per ounce—or a few cents per joint.”

This would make pot far and away the cheapest intoxicant on the market, absolutely blowing beer and liquor out of the water. Joints would be about as cheap as things that are often treated as free. Splenda packets, for example, cost 2 or 3 cents each when purchased in bulk.

These data either bolster or undermine the case for legalization, depending on your point of view...

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:11 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Gawd, don't tell the alcohol or tobacco lobbies!!! They'd put a hit on everyone selling it!

Added to that, when it comes to booze, is that dope would make for fewer bar fights, gun deaths, traffic accidents and general, all-around violence...damned hard to care enough to BE violent (or stay awake long enough) when stoned!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:21 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I don't know much about pot, but I do know there's nothing worse than a drunk.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:53 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pot mellows you out, increases appetite, slows time and lessens motivation. I don't like drunks, either, which is part of why I don't drink. That and watching a family member nearly die in hospital while trying to get it out of his system, and the actions I've observed of alcoholics.

Despite what some here and elsewhere believe, pot has not been conclusively shown to be physically addictive; alcohol HAS. There has never been any evidence of marijuana causing violence; there is myriad proof that alcohol DOES (or at least contributes to it).

While both are dangerous when it comes to driving, far, far more traffic accidents are caused by people who are drunk than those who are stoned.

The physical effects of alcohol on both brain and body have been shown scientifically to be worse than those of pot.

Marijuana has been shown to have many medicinal uses; alcohol has few.

That's enough for me. In my opinion, NO "recreational" drug is "good", but given mankind has sought such things since we found the first one, there are "better" and "worse" kinds. Man has always sought escape from reality and will never cease doing so, unless we evolve beyond that and our other weaknesses, so if we gotta have 'em, dope is less dangerous than any of the others. JMHO

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 11:22 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

It is legal where I live now, but I've no idea what the impact has been on price because I've never used it. I could probably ask around.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 11:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Rose, I think it will take time for any major changes to occur. I don't think there are that many "producers" who are sure how it's going to work out who are willing to be public about their sales. In CA, where it's been legal medicinally for some time now, the price at "medicinal" marijuana clubs is still pretty equivalent to that on the black market...and THEY flux even now, with some being closed down and others opening up. The federal ban is still a biggie.

I think it'll take a few years before anything changes much, and even then, it'd take a change in the federal statute before most people feel comfortable selling on any kind of open market. Will be interesting to see, as time goes on.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 11:41 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
The federal ban is still a biggie.

*shrug* The president has said that no federal prosecution will come down on users in Colorado or Washington. The bill has been signed into state constitutional law. The medical thing was always a little more iffy, but it's legal for recreational use now, with taxes on it set to go to education. There's no ambiguity. While I agree it will probably take time for things to really settle, I don't think it will take all that long.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 12:01 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

True, Rose, there is a difference, I hadn't thought about that. I'm not sure I'd put that much trust in the feds just because of what Obama says, tho' you're probably right.

Good on you, Brenda! Tho' some list caffeine (even in sodas) and sugar as "drugs" in their way, to me they don't count. I started smoking pot in my teens--I did a number of psychedellics back then!--mostly because everyone else drank at parties and I wanted to be part of the social atmosphere. And yes, here in CA pot is considered "medicinal" for many, many reasons--I use it legally for my bipolarity and pain, but it's also legal for

Quote:
A serious medical condition, as defined by SB 420, is any of the following: AIDS; anorexia; arthritis; cachexia (wasting syndrome); cancer; chronic pain; glaucoma; migraine; persistent muscle spasms (i.e., spasms associated with multiple sclerosis); seizures (i.e., epileptic seizures); severe nausea; any other chronic or persistent medical symptom that either substantially limits a person’s ability to conduct one or more of major life activities as defined in the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, or if not alleviated, may cause serious harm to the person’s safety, physical, or mental health.

Pretty all-encompassing, and from what I saw at the clinic I used to go to, an awful lot of them appeared to be "aging hippies"...which of course could mean they suffer from a lot of what aging people do, but still...

Other states have stricter conditions; I kinda doubt any could come up with any looser!

Personally, I would be quite content if it were merely put in the proper category, rather than as a Category I along with heroin and opium, for heaven's sake! It should belong in Category IV, along with Ativan and Phenobarbital, etc., in my opinion.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 12:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
I don't know much about pot, but I do know there's nothing worse than a drunk.

Well, to a sober person. Some drunks can be quite entertaining.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 12:59 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I figure if a state wants to make street drugs legal its their porogative, I think that's something that maybe the feds don't need to be so involved in.

I wouldn't be willing to try marijuana, because Niki is the only person I've met with mental health differences who appears to benefit from its use. Most people with mental health differences experience more symptoms etc. when smoking it, and many people feel that smoking it first "brought out" said differences. We all know marijuana doesn't "cause" mental illness, if you don't have the genes you can smoke marijuana all your life without incident. But if you've got those genetics (and no one can be sure what their genes hold and what their brain chemicals might do) then marijuana is usually ill advised. Again Niki seems to do fine with it, but I think she's an exception. So that's why I don't give it a whirl. If I were neurotypical then I might eat a browny or something, but since I'm not I stay away.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 1:22 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You're absolutely right, Riona. I know a number of people with mental disorders who literally CANNOT use dope. Choey lives with us; she's got PTSD and Bipolarity, and marijuana screws her up something fierce. She's said many times she wishes it didn't, because she's an alcoholic so can never drink again and suffers considerable pain.

I've known others--the most common effect is that it "hypes" them up. It's not just those with mental disorders; some people have adverse reactions, just as some do from alcohol, especially those with possible allergies to the substance. I NEVER recommend anyone TRY dope--the only person I ever gave into (after endless harrassment) was a classmate in college, and I made sure I was WITH her when she first tried it. She was fine, but I'd never tell anyone to try ANY drug without supervision...or alcohol or (especially) cigarettes at all, for that matter!

People's metabolisms differ; any substance can be dangerous. And any substance out of the ordinary can cause a genetic mood disorder to manifest, too, you're also right about that. It's one of the reasons bipolarity gained another "type", specifically named "medically-generated bipolarity" (or something like that). Bipolar IIs or people who present as depressive but are actually bipolar have actually been hospitalized or suicided after being given just antidepressants. Same thing happened with SamE to some bipolars. Messing around with drugs...ANY drugs...is potentially dangerous.

By the way, Riona...I have always smoked dope in small quantities, even I wouldn't smoke an entire joint; at today's strengths, it would no doubt lay me out! I only use it like an "evening cocktail", a couple of hits to mellow me out and help me sleep.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 1:28 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

If pot were legal, Twinkies would still be widely available, I'm guessing.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 2:42 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Marijuana farming on $10 bill in 1914

US Currency: In Hemp We Trust on $10 bill
http://www.globalhemp.com/2000/05/us-currency-in-hemp-we-trust.html
http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?11,216596

The story of hemp prohibition is all spelled out on the 1914 10 dollar bill "if you know how to read the cryptic code." A Lot of Mind-Blow'n Learnin' in just 4.5 min of your time:

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 6:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Niki, I hope you guys can find a pain mannagement strategy, if Choey is suffering that is sad, keep digging and hopefully she'll find the right thing to help her. I've discovered in the last year and a half a little about physical pain, I have a problem with my hips which doctors can't figure out. But fortunately I've found some excercises that I can do to keep it away, but it relapses every three months or so and I have to bust out my excercises again or I'm in great pain and can barely turn over in bed, good thing I'm not married, :). But I know it doesn't compare to the difficulties of you, Frem and Wish's chronic pain challenges and I imagine its quite hard.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, January 9, 2013 9:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA

I actually heard tell of someone investigating the possibility of vending machines.... wheel o weed, anyone ?
Strange days.

Me, I am all for the re-introduction of quaaludes, cause man, some of these uptight people these days could USE one!

-F

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Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

Me, I am all for the re-introduction of quaaludes, cause man, some of these uptight people these days could USE one!

-F

The thinking that, if only some would take drugs, then they'd see things differently, and think more like you?

Naw, no thanks.

I think stress relief can come in many healthier ways.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 11:14 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Another way of looking at it, suggested by California NORML Director Dale Gieringer, is that we should expect legal pot to cost about the same amount as “other legal herbs such as tea or tobacco,” something perhaps “100 times lower than the current prevailing price of $300 per ounce—or a few cents per joint.”

This would make pot far and away the cheapest intoxicant on the market, absolutely blowing beer and liquor out of the water. Joints would be about as cheap as things that are often treated as free. Splenda packets, for example, cost 2 or 3 cents each when purchased in bulk.

These data either bolster or undermine the case for legalization, depending on your point of view...

Bullshit..... :)

Part of me wishes that Pot were legal......

Then the realist in me remembers that there I once imagined that I wished I was Zeus's younger brother and he'd teach me how to throw lightning bolts straight up the asses of anyone doing wrong...

A "few cents a joint"?????

Where are you getting your research from, KPO??????? India, Circa 1997?????

Even back then, my friends and I had to drive to the "ghetto" and risk the neighborhood and the cops just to pay 10 bucks for a "dime bag" of shitty weed. Over the years some of my friends made some great suburbanite contacts, but even those were prone to inflation.

My best friend bitched constantly about the prices going up for his "above ghetto quality weed" and I told him he was nuts since the contact he had was forced to pay 3 times for gasoline for his car just like we did.

If.... and IT'S A BIG IF......

But IF, our Federal Government ever "allows" personal use of weed and doesn't relegate us to ditch-digging positions for those of us not smart enough to circumvent their testing procedures, it's only because they know they can make a MINT off of it....

If weed were "legalized", 3 truths would stand tall....

1. You could NEVER grow your own. In fact, if you were caught growing more than a few ounces at a time your prison term would probably be extended beyond today's norms for dealing a "controlled" (taxed) substance the Government was in charge of dealing with.

2. You would only be in "the clear" if pulled over with any pot in your car if it was the Government approved version with a "tax stamp". If you were caught with any other version, it would be a hefty fine or immediate jail time............ The "Click it or Ticket" laws would prove to be VERY good ways to Unconstitutionally invade cars to catch a lot of otherwise non-law-breaking citizens.

3. You still can't get a "GOOD" job if you smoked weed. So long as there are rules out there that allow employers who don't employ people who don't operate machinery to smoke, it will always be "illegal" in the sense that you can't get a semi-decent job while smoking.

I work overnight stocking at KMart. I had to submit to a drug test. Before this job, I worked "security" at a security firm, and sat in my car for 13 hours a day wondering why they paid me to listen to talk radio and ballgames and read while ABSOLUTELY NOTHING went on.

Funny thing is, much more than half of the people I work with today smoke weed regularly. Many of them do before they go to work and talk about it on break.

There will ALWAYS be an underground market for weed because if the Government got control of it, it would cost MORE THAN MOST PARTAKERS WOULD EVER PAY FOR IT!!!!!

I recently got a free meal from my family from Cooper Hawk. Nice restaurant, for sure, but even with 4 people eating and 2 free dinner coupons it was over 65 bucks. I didn't want to go, but I was dragged by family to it. I only had my $11.49 burger and fries with a water, but even with 2 free meals out of 4 it was over 65 bucks before tip!

WTF..... No wonder nobody noticed my meal, which was AWESOME, because they spent more on 2 shitty half-glasses of wine than my awesome meal cost.

Go ahead and "pray for the day" that weed will be legal stateside......

Not only will it only be legal if you're caught and you have the "government approved" weed, but they'll have "additives" in their weed and you'll never get a good job if you pay for any reasonably priced "black market" weed.....

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Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:57 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Pot mellows you out, increases appetite, slows time and lessens motivation.

Hmph. Just made me paranoid & wanna have a beer. I'd rather read a book.
But my Dad has medical issues & it seems to help his appetite & depression.
To each their own.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Chris, definitely to each their own. Paranoia is the most common bad side effect people get from dope, by far, so you're not alone. I can't handle alcohol, I get righteously sick before I ever get "drunk". To each his own.

Growing your own isn't a problem. It's legal here, and the marijuana "clinics" sell plants as well as the smokable version. It's only when done in quantity for sale that the government would ever give a shit.

As to the cost of dope, no, it is no longer cheap. But in the 60s, here at least, it was easily obtainable, even at my jr. college (in fact I sold it out of a hollowed-out book for a short time) and nobody HERE has ever had to go to a "ghetto" to get it.

If it were legal, you'd get pulled over and arrested just the same as if you had an open container of alcohol, nothing more. That's true today in California, and it's only medically legal.

Many people are just ignorant on the subject.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
The federal ban is still a biggie.

*shrug* The president has said that no federal prosecution will come down on users in Colorado or Washington. The bill has been signed into state constitutional law. The medical thing was always a little more iffy, but it's legal for recreational use now, with taxes on it set to go to education. There's no ambiguity. While I agree it will probably take time for things to really settle, I don't think it will take all that long.

I wish you were right, and hope you are, but there's a guy in Cali who was just sentenced to ten years in federal prison for supplying legal pot to legal medical dispensaries in a purely legal fashion under state law. Federal prison means no parole, no time off for good behavior, no early release, no breaks, no nothing - ten years = ten long years. For having a legal job in a state where the state says it's legal and the federal government says otherwise.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:44 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

States rights anyone? The Feds need to step back, they are necessary and we need them for certain things, but I don't think they should be as in charge as they are. their are things that states could decide just fine for themselves.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:27 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Long story short......

If pot were legal....

I'd be high now.

As a side, you'd actually enjoy my company. :)

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:54 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yeah, Mike, right on. People are still arrested here, tho' not for small amounts for personal use, that I know of. They regularly "bust" medicinal marijuana clubs--usually because they've done something wrong, tho' whether they actually did or that's an excuse, I don't know.

As a result, I lost the clinic I went to regularly and really liked, and the only options I've been able to find are on-line "clinics" that deliver, which is what I had to use. I don't like it, at ALL, but I understand they have to protect themselves.

There's too much still invested in the "war on drugs" for those involved to easily give up their power. Won't happen until/unless it's made federally legal, I assume.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 10:21 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
...but there's a guy in Cali who was just sentenced to ten years in federal prison for supplying legal pot to legal medical dispensaries in a purely legal fashion under state law.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
People are still arrested here, tho' not for small amounts for personal use, that I know of. They regularly "bust" medicinal marijuana clubs--usually because they've done something wrong, tho' whether they actually did or that's an excuse, I don't know.

Right, but that was the point I was making. It's legal in Colorado and Washington state for recreational use. There's no gray area. The medical system of legalization is flawed, because people abuse the system to use it recreationally, something that is still against the law. When such use is not against the law, it can't be said that recreational use is an abuse of the system. No one here can say that a medical seller or a medical club has done anything "wrong" because the medical restriction no longer exists.
For example, there are many prescription drugs that are popular for recreational use. Their medical use is legal, their recreational use is not. Someone with valid prescriptions can be arrested if they have too many pills in their possession, on suspicion of intent to sell the drugs. This is something that happens because people will abuse that medical system, so there are those who get in trouble for a drug that is legal for medical use only. The same problems have clearly arisen from medical marijuana laws, because there's too much gray area for suspicion to exist that the intent is not within the bounds of the law. An individual can stock their cupboards with nothing but whiskey and that in itself will not land them in prison. Do the same thing with vicoden or marijuana, it's going to be a problem for you. Marijuana having entered the same classification as alcohol, within these states, means a lot less room for suspicion of intent or cries of "abusing the system."
Let me be clear: the new laws are not going to change my personal habits at all. I have no desire to smoke marijuana, so I don't care. But if it means more money for state education and less money wasted on imprisoning people who have not really done anything wrong, I'm for it. I voted yes on the amendment for that reason, and a majority of voters in this state voted yes as well. The governor was personally uncomfortable with it, but he signed it into law, into the state constitution. And, as I mentioned, the president said that federal law enforcement will not be making arrests here for anything related to cannabis. Has anything similar been said about California? I'm going to guess no, because there are uses of it that are still illegal there. Just as someone selling prescription drugs here would still be a federal case, even though they are "legal" for certain uses, marijuana use can still be a federal matter in California, because it is still possible to commit that federal offense under state law. Colorado and Washington? No, you can't commit that offense under state law (perhaps barring age restrictions and what have you, but that's a little beside the point.) It's just as legal as alcohol, here, whereas in California it is not, and that's the difference.
I could be wrong, but there are a few indicators that I'm not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
I'm not sure I'd put that much trust in the feds just because of what Obama says...

I think the POTUS might have a few bits of authority in these sort of matters. I suppose we'll find out, but... if federal government employees will not follow the mandates the the federal government, then I think their employing body might have something to say to them about it.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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