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"I'm Barack Obama, the Marxist professor. I spent the last two years of high school in a daze. I drank beer heavily, and tried drugs enthusiastically. Look I uh, when I was a kid , I inhaled, frequently. that was uh, that was the point. Pot helped, and booze. A little blow when you could afford it. Junkie, pothead, that's where I was headed. Now you know that guy ain't shit. Sorry ass motherfuckers got nothin on me, nothin. Shit's gettin way too complicated for me. There are white folks, then there are ignorant motherfuckers like you. You can put lipstick on a pig. You ain't my bitch nigger, buy your own damn fries. That's just how white folks will do ya."
-Barack Hussein Obama Soetoro, Dreams From My Father MP3
http://www.archive.org/details/ObamaInauguralMashup/

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What was left was rounded up and slaughtered by the trailing Einsatzgrupppenn troops, and no personal weapons would have made any difference even if they had actually had them.

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Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
The argument re hitler and guns has always been nonsense.

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Meanwhile, many more categories of people, including Nazi party members, were exempted from gun ownership regulations altogether

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What was left was rounded up and slaughtered by the trailing Einsatzgrupppenn troops, and no personal weapons would have made any difference even if they had actually had them.

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That is true.

I note for the record that for all those deaths only one time did a German officer refuse his orders (and he was a Nazi too). It did not end well for him or his unit.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:

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Originally posted by Hero:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
What was left was rounded up and slaughtered by the trailing Einsatzgrupppenn troops, and no personal weapons would have made any difference even if they had actually had them.

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That is true.

I note for the record that for all those deaths only one time did a German officer refuse his orders (and he was a Nazi too). It did not end well for him or his unit.

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Not true. It was well acknowledged that this sort of "personal" mass execution was traumatic for the soldiers (poor dears...) and a not insignificant number of them declined with no repercussions, though it was seen as cowardly. Peer pressure, bowing to authority, general antisemitism seems to have been the reasons most soldiers (regular Wehrmacht) took part. Alcohol was deployed, too. Makes it all the more sinister to think that a more wide-spread refusal to take part might have made a significant difference. The Einsatzgruppen were a different story, I believe.

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I think the Hitler gun debate is not about taking guns from the conquered peoples of Europe, its about taking them from the German people after he was democratically elected.

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Considering parts of Germany were on the brink of civil war during parts of the Weimar republic, things were highly restricted before he came into power.

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Not true. It was well acknowledged that this sort of "personal" mass execution was traumatic for the soldiers (poor dears...) and a not insignificant number of them declined with no repercussions, though it was seen as cowardly. Peer pressure, bowing to authority, general antisemitism seems to have been the reasons most soldiers (regular Wehrmacht) took part. Alcohol was deployed, too. Makes it all the more sinister to think that a more wide-spread refusal to take part might have made a significant difference. The Einsatzgruppen were a different story, I believe.

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Milgram argued that the ethical criticism provoked by his experiments was because his findings were disturbing and revealed unwelcome truths about human nature. Others have argued that the ethical debate has diverted attention from more serious problems with the experiment's methodology. Author Gina Perry found an unpublished paper in Milgram's archives that shows Milgram's own concern with how believable the experimental set-up was to subjects involved. Milgram's unpublished analysis indicated that many subjects suspected that the experiment was a hoax, a finding that casts doubt on the veracity of his results. In the journal Jewish Currents, Joseph Dimow, a participant in the 1961 experiment at Yale University, wrote about his early withdrawal as a "teacher," suspicious "that the whole experiment was designed to see if ordinary Americans would obey immoral orders, as many Germans had done during the Nazi period."

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Originally posted by Hero:

Hitler was not widely known for his love and respect for civil rights. But I suspect he'd be supportive of the Democrat's gun control plans.

H

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Coming from someone who has been so wrong, so often, your speculation in place of an actual argument is pretty funny.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

Oh yes. Which is why all the "scientific" psychology tests that arose after WW2, asking how the Germans got ALL their people to bow to authority so much and determining that EVERYONE bows to authority, are such a load of garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment


When you base your premise on a false concept to begin with, and load your study with preselected conditions, the end result can't be called science.

I see that "not-insignificant group of soldiers who refused to participate" as the one single hope spot that our species even has.

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I guess I'm mainly deeply opposed to anything that might foster the complacent, self-indulgent assumption of any single person that they are beyond manipulation or "bowing to authority". It's the opposite of awareness.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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I guess I'm mainly deeply opposed to anything that might foster the complacent, self-indulgent assumption of any single person that they are beyond manipulation or "bowing to authority". It's the opposite of awareness.

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I guess... I'm more concerned that this creates an argument for "this is human nature, everyone does this so it's okay, you should too."

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I think it really IS an other. It's only going to be a certain few people who will fire on an unarmed group with no provocation just because they're told to - training is what changes that. People have to become desensitized and their targets dehumanized to do that. And the people with no training who'll do that - often gleefully - they've got PROBLEMS.

Milgram's study focused on students following directions given by professors, something they've been told to do during their formative years, probably since they were five, and those students were still or recently subject to the authority of same professors. Seems like a non-representative group and non-representative situation to me.

It simply doesn't pass the sniff test.

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Originally posted by AgentRouka:
To me that shows exactly where people should be vigilant. Children and young adults need to be taught to question directions they are given by an authority if they conflict with ethical behavior, same as adults. That's what I take from this experiment. The training aspect you mentioned needs to be disrupted by that vigilance.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Don't confuse agreeing with what is being done or simply not caring, with not questioning athority.

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{ } - Yes, I want the school to adopt a uniform policy
{ } - No, I do not want a uniform policy adopted at this time.

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Of course getting kids to sit down and pay attention is part of being able to teach them.

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You know how I know that what ever attempts are made to just make people submit to authority aren't working? The internet. Find me someone that never questions authority on the web.

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You dislike any type of authority. I doubt you can understand how anyone could agree with it.

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You know what I remember from school? Finding out those things I thought where true were not. Now maybe my education in the public schools in western NY state was better than most.

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No one can teach a person that does not want to learn.

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“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”

Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

I simply reject the idea of social control through force, fear and coercion.

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I have only one word for those that DO NOT reject it:

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Man's near infinite ability for compassion is only eclipsed by his infinite ability to destroy.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

I simply reject the idea of social control through force, fear and coercion.

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I have only one word for those that DO NOT reject it:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

HA!

Excellent.

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One could find a lot of use for that jpg in these parts, I conjure.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

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Originally posted by Storymark:

HA!

Excellent.

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One could find a lot of use for that jpg in these parts, I conjure.

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Originally posted by Kwicko:

Especially if they had spelled DUMB-ASS correctly...

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1. “Well, I think there has to be some [gun] control.”

2. “I think maybe there could be some restrictions that there had to be a certain amount of training taken.”

3. “Every year, an average of 9,200 Americans are murdered by handguns, according to Department of Justice statistics. This does not include suicides or the tens of thousands of robberies, rapes and assaults committed with handguns. This level of violence must be stopped.”

4. “With the right to bear arms comes a great responsibility to use caution and common sense on handgun purchases.”

5. “Certain forms of ammunition have no legitimate sporting, recreational, or self-defense use and thus should be prohibited.”

6. “I do not believe in taking away the right of the citizen for sporting, for hunting and so forth, or for home defense. But I do believe that an AK-47, a machine gun, is not a sporting weapon or needed for defense of a home.”

7. “This is a matter of vital importance to the public safety … While we recognize that assault-weapon legislation will not stop all assault-weapon crime, statistics prove that we can dry up the supply of these guns, making them less accessible to criminals.”

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:
The core of my disagreement with you maybe that human’s nature is one of violence as well as compassion. Man's near infinite ability for compassion is only eclipsed by his infinite ability to destroy. War has been with us for as long as we have been around. It is not a learned trait. If anything we learn to control that side of use much more then we ever learn not to care

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You are right the no one maybe able to force you to do some things. They can however force the consequences of not doing them on you. That is the point.

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Originally posted by Niki2:
I agree with the point he made, and I wish it were possible to do as he suggests. I'm afraid I'm not that much of an optimist, however.

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But I suspect he'd be supportive of the Democrat's gun control plans.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Though I note certain groups in the country DO have unequal access to dangerous weapons.

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Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:

In response, I offer this, just for thought.

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Originally posted by canttakesky:
I think, in the end, that is the more important point. That they DID disarm the demographic they meant to persecute. It's not necessary to disarm the entire populace to persecute a subset.

The lesson for me is to look at who they are disarming now, in the USA.

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