If showing ID to vote is a suppression of one's civil rights... by AURaptor

I know my opinion doesn't matter here at all, but I'm on board....

If the same 21 year old girl asking for my ID to buy beer were working at Kohls when I was buying some shirts for work, she'd just call me "sir".....

If I can't buy smokes or beer at 33 years old without an ID, I can't see why asking for ID to vote is such a problem. They actually do require ID to vote at my local polling place, and I'm happier for it.

Being the Constitutionalist I am, I can't even see why this is an argument period.

You either ARE or ARE NOT a citizen. If you can't get a Driver's License for medical or legal reasons, you can get a state ID.

To this day, I'm completely baffled why this is even a topic of discussion.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:33 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

No. First off voting is a right. Second part of that right is that it is not based on one's ability to pay. The whole argument against voter ID laws is that they effect those who don't have the means to get an ID. The second amendments says you have the right to own a gun, but you still need to be able to afford to buy it and submit to the background check. The background check and the restriction of some individuals based on that check is in the same vein as restricting felons right to vote.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:36 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

The Constitution lays out some very specific boundaries for voting requirements, among them that no poll taxes or fees shall be required or collected. Requiring photo ID while NOT providing such state-issued photo IDs free of charge or making the documentation required to get such IDs free of charge amounts to a poll tax or fee, according to several court cases.

There is no such provision laid out in the Constitution regarding the right to keep and bear arms. Nowhere in the document does it say that such arms will be free of any and all fees or regulations. In fact, it explicitly mentions regulations in the first three words of the amendment.

If you want to require photo ID, most people have no problem with that. But you have to make such photo ID free, along with the means to obtain such an ID.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:41 AM

JONGSSTRAW

"....shall not be infringed."

That's just it, you he infringes. There's infringing going on right under your noses.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:44 AM

Actually, I COMPLETELY agree with Kwicko here.

Illinois charges 20 bucks these days just for a state ID. Ludicris....

Indiana is more fair, but still, especially as a requirement to vote it should be a free thing.

I have no problem with being charged for an actual Driver's License, as that proves your tested ability and legal status to drive a car, which is a Privilege and not a Right.....

But in any state, a simple State ID should be free for anyone who can provide sufficient evidence of their legal status.

Still though.... most people don't live in Illinois or California.

Even though I agree with the principal of your idea, there are people who really can't scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status to vote for something they hold so dear?

I think the real argument here is simply that State ID's should be free. No more, no less.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:45 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
No. First off voting is a right. Second part of that right is that it is not based on one's ability to pay. The whole argument against voter ID laws is that they effect those who don't have the means to get an ID. The second amendments says you have the right to own a gun, but you still need to be able to afford to buy it and submit to the background check. The background check and the restriction of some individuals based on that check is in the same vein as restricting felons right to vote.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Voting is NOT a " right ", at least, not for President. 2nd, the 'ability to pay' line is pure b.s. Not only are we required to show some form of ID when buying beer, cigs, opening a bank account, getting a blockbuster card ( ok, maybe not so much NOW, but still... ) renting an apt, or even getting on a plane... there's all manner of every day situations where we show our ID. And here's the kicker, most states have FREE state ID cards available, so the 'cost' excuse really holds no water.

Seriously, are we expected to believe that all those low -information voters who show up to the polls for Obama don't smoke or drink ? Or stay in extended stay motels? I bet THEY ask for some sort of ID there. But proof of citizenship is too much to ask ?

If ID check is invalid for voting , it should also be invalid for gun ownership.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
That's just it, you he infringes. There's infringing going on right under your noses.

Hey J,

Not sure at all who or what you were talking about with that reply but I thank you :)

Did any of my posts ever come out that "drunk"????

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:53 AM

Aside from the inability for a natural born or nationalized citizen's right to vote for President, I agree with everything else Rap says here. (Aside from felony conviction Rap, I'd like to know what you meant here).

I've even had to show my photo ID to a cashier at Wal-Mart for buying "Sta-bil" for my gas I use for my lawnmower and snowblower to keep the gas from "gumming up" in the engine during non-use in off seasons. As far as she knew, it was to keep one person from buying too much of it because it can be used to make weapons. Unfortunately that program isn't working out too well because I've bought it twice since then without being carded....

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:58 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
That's just it, you he infringes. There's infringing going on right under your noses.

Hey J,

Not sure at all who or what you were talking about with that reply but I thank you :)

Did you ever watch the show?

Quote:
Did any of my posts ever come out that "drunk"????

Pretty much all the time.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 7:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by m52nickerson:
No. First off voting is a right. Second part of that right is that it is not based on one's ability to pay. The whole argument against voter ID laws is that they effect those who don't have the means to get an ID. The second amendments says you have the right to own a gun, but you still need to be able to afford to buy it and submit to the background check. The background check and the restriction of some individuals based on that check is in the same vein as restricting felons right to vote.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

Voting is NOT a " right ", at least, not for President.

Voting IS a right, though technically voting for President isn't. You'd have to talk to the various states about moving their elections to a different day if you want to separate voting for President from all other voting that occurs on the same day. Most places usually lump 'em all onto one ballot, and the Constitution lays out that you may not charge someone a tax or fee to vote.

Quote:

2nd, the 'ability to pay' line is pure b.s. Not only are we required to show some form of ID when buying beer, cigs, opening a bank account, getting a blockbuster card ( ok, maybe not so much NOW, but still... ) renting an apt, or even getting on a plane... there's all manner of every day situations where we show our ID. And here's the kicker, most states have FREE state ID cards available, so the 'cost' excuse really holds no water.

Can you show me where in the Constitution it guarantees your right to buy beer, cigarettes, open a bank account, get a blockbuster card (do they still exist?), rent an apartment or get on a plane? You're arguing about things you claim are and aren't in the Constitution, and then you're trying to buttress your argument with a laundry list of things that absolutely are not in the document.

You've been shown- repeatedly - where even "free" state IDs are not free. In some cases, they can cost you hundreds of dollars AND require days off from work. Such an onus is inherently a tax or fee being placed upon the voter, and the Constitution says that such taxes an fees are illegal. If you disagree, I'd suggest taking up a constitutional amendment to charge people for voting.

Quote:

Seriously, are we expected to believe that all those low -information voters who show up to the polls for Obama don't smoke or drink ? Or stay in extended stay motels? I bet THEY ask for some sort of ID there. But proof of citizenship is too much to ask ?

I can't speak to what you do or don't BELIEVE, only to what is and isn't in the Constitution. That was your original purpose in starting this thread, was it not? Now you're erecting a series of straw men in a feeble attempt to prop up a weak argument.

Quote:

If ID check is invalid for voting , it should also be invalid for gun ownership.

Again, only if you can show me where in the Constitution it says that your right to own a gun is guaranteed to be completely free of monetary cost, because it does say that about voting. And when you can show me that, then I'll be waiting by my mailbox for my free ObamaGun!

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 7:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Actually, I COMPLETELY agree with Kwicko here.

Illinois charges 20 bucks these days just for a state ID. Ludicris....

Indiana is more fair, but still, especially as a requirement to vote it should be a free thing.

I have no problem with being charged for an actual Driver's License, as that proves your tested ability and legal status to drive a car, which is a Privilege and not a Right.....

But in any state, a simple State ID should be free for anyone who can provide sufficient evidence of their legal status.

Still though.... most people don't live in Illinois or California.

Even though I agree with the principal of your idea, there are people who really can't scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status to vote for something they hold so dear?

I think the real argument here is simply that State ID's should be free. No more, no less.

While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I question the veracity of calling into question the ability of people to "scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status". You're assigning an arbitrary number that is intended to denigrate someone else's level of income or poverty and base their societal worth as a voter upon such an income level, or lack thereof.

If you can find it so easy to require voting to cost $5, why not $5 billion? Sure, you'll cut down on the number of voters by doing so, but isn't that the whole intention in the first place? And since that IS the intent, why not just go ahead and be honest about it and say that you don't want poor people to vote, because they tend to vote Democrat, and you want only rich people to vote, because you're sure you can hand them enough freebies to get them to all vote Republican?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Yes, it is a potential infringement.

Solution: Make state identification free and easy to obtain.

PROBLEM SOLVED.

-F

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I question the veracity of calling into question the ability of people to "scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status". You're assigning an arbitrary number that is intended to denigrate someone else's level of income or poverty and base their societal worth as a voter upon such an income level, or lack thereof.

Bing-O! As we've all learned (at least those of us with two brain cells to rub together who are paying attention) , for some it costs bus fair or gas to GO to the far-away places to get an ID, plus lost work time, on top of whatever charges the ID costs. Saying casually that "there are people who really can't scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status to vote for something they hold so dear?" also shows a level of ignorance few here possess.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, I question the veracity of calling into question the ability of people to "scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status". You're assigning an arbitrary number that is intended to denigrate someone else's level of income or poverty and base their societal worth as a voter upon such an income level, or lack thereof.

If you can find it so easy to require voting to cost $5, why not $5 billion? Sure, you'll cut down on the number of voters by doing so, but isn't that the whole intention in the first place? And since that IS the intent, why not just go ahead and be honest about it and say that you don't want poor people to vote, because they tend to vote Democrat, and you want only rich people to vote, because you're sure you can hand them enough freebies to get them to all vote Republican?

Though now, I have to stop you mid-way through the 2nd paragraph, you make a valid point.

I'm finding myself in the position to fight my property taxes again this year to knock off 1000k, which I was assured I wouldn't have to do again. This will probably be a continued theme as long as I live here and don't upgrade my basement, every year...

I make 64 bucks before taxes a night dude. If I'm lucky these days, after Christmas, I work 2 nights a week.

Sure, I don't have a mortgae or house payment, but just property taxes and house/car insurance alone leave me with only less than 5k a year after income taxes are taken out...

I realize I'm on my own, but really......? Could you ever even imagine what it's like to live on only 5k a year with no supplemental income?

I'm the "nigger" that didn't buy Christmas gifts for anyone in my family for the 3rd year straight.

I'm the guy who focused obsessively on the fact that he ran out of gum while at work when we were open 24/7 for the holidays and paid 2 bucks for 2 sticks of good gum when I usually pay a buck for 90 sugar-free tabs of gum at Aldi that will literally turn into sand and leave a horrible aftertaste if you chew for around 8 hours straight.

The only good meals I have had in the last 2 years were from family....

That 5 bucks isn't shit, and if they can't afford it until we change a lot of bullshit laws on the docket, why are they here anyhow?

When you talk strictly on principal, I agree if they have legit paperwork and go through the right channels....

When you try to appease me based off of BS money issues, I call your bluff. I might have had some good money coming in a few years ago, and I have nothing now. I made sure to first be legal when I came here and keep it up.

Anyone who doesn't do so should be punished....

Even if you're an illegal, if you can't save 5 bucks, maybe you should be deported.....

Sad, horrid people.....

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:38 AM

Jack, why do you assume that illegals are voting?

The discussion was of CITIZENS voting and owning guns, was it not?

Of course, I can only guess that you're drunk again, since you've claimed that's the only time you post here...

Also, why do you feel the need to use the N-word in a derogatory fashion?

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:57 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Again, only if you can show me where in the Constitution it says that your right to own a gun is guaranteed to be completely free of monetary cost, because it does say that about voting. And when you can show me that, then I'll be waiting by my mailbox for my free ObamaGun!

I love how you twist and contort the issue, into something that's utterly incomprehensible to discuss.

No where does the Constitution say guns should be free, and no where does it say voting for President is a RIGHT.

These same folks who buy liquor, buy cigs, etc.. .use some form of ID to get these things. They HAVE to, or they don't get them, right? So, why do they offer such feigned resistance when asked to present that SAME ID at a polling place ?

The ID check for voting is utterly fallacious.

However, the right to OWN arms "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED ".

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 3:34 PM

JONGSSTRAW

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

And vote for Democrats 'cause they'll give you a monthly check for just signing your name with an X. Don't get an education, don't work, don't get married, don't read a newspaper, don't limit your number of sexual partners and offspring, don't put down the crack pipe, don't learn English, ... just stay as wonderfully special as you are because Democrats love and need you. But most of all, never forget, Republicans are evil and will kill everyone you love if they win.

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 4:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

And vote for Democrats 'cause they'll give you a monthly check for just signing your name with an X. Don't get an education, don't work, don't get married, don't read a newspaper, don't limit your number of sexual partners and offspring, don't put down the crack pipe, don't learn English, ... just stay as wonderfully special as you are because Democrats love and need you. But most of all, never forget, Republicans are evil and will kill everyone you love if they win.

Speaking of needing to put down the crack pipe... Jongsie, have you been hanging out over at Jack's again?

Most of the Democrats I know are college graduates, several of them with Master's degrees, some with doctorates. All have jobs, most are married (except for the gay ones, that is, who live in states where they aren't allowed to get married), few have children, none smoke crack, and all speak English.

Conversely, most of the Republicans I know got as far as high school, maybe, several have been serially unemployed, a bunch have been married multiple times and have multiple children from each marriage, a few are junkies and dopeheads, and none seem capable of spelling "cat" if you spot them the C and the T.

And the red states for the most part take for more in federal money than the blue states, AND have higher incidences of teen pregnancy and school drop-outs, and generally have lower education levels.

Seriously, if we could just cut the red states loose, most of our debt and deficit problems would be solved.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 5:42 PM

During the whole secession movement I found out that Texas borrowed the most money from the Federal Government. If that's true, then they have received the most "gifts"..........................

“Our founding fathers established the Constitution of the United States ‘in order to form a more perfect union’ through the hard and frustrating but necessary work of self-government,” Mr. Carson wrote. “They enshrined in that document the right to change our national government through the power of the ballot — a right that generations of Americans have fought to secure for all. But they did not provide a right to walk away from it.”

Freedom comes with a price but,

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose..........

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

And vote for Democrats 'cause they'll give you a monthly check for just signing your name with an X. Don't get an education, don't work, don't get married, don't read a newspaper, don't limit your number of sexual partners and offspring, don't put down the crack pipe, don't learn English, ... just stay as wonderfully special as you are because Democrats love and need you. But most of all, never forget, Republicans are evil and will kill everyone you love if they win.

Speaking of needing to put down the crack pipe... Jongsie, have you been hanging out over at Jack's again?

Most of the Democrats I know are college graduates, several of them with Master's degrees, some with doctorates. All have jobs, most are married (except for the gay ones, that is, who live in states where they aren't allowed to get married), few have children, none smoke crack, and all speak English.

Conversely, most of the Republicans I know got as far as high school, maybe, several have been serially unemployed, a bunch have been married multiple times and have multiple children from each marriage, a few are junkies and dopeheads, and none seem capable of spelling "cat" if you spot them the C and the T.

And the red states for the most part take for more in federal money than the blue states, AND have higher incidences of teen pregnancy and school drop-outs, and generally have lower education levels.

Seriously, if we could just cut the red states loose, most of our debt and deficit problems would be solved.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 5:46 PM

The power of the ballot has spoken my friend. When "W" was president many dems were not happy, myself included, but he won "fair and square" and I had to accept it. For 8 years he led the nation. No one spoke of voter ID then.

Why is voter ID so important now?

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
even though voting for President isn't even a constitutional right, aren't stricter gun laws, background checks and registering of arms also a suppression of our 2nd Amendment RIGHTS ??

Discuss.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:01 PM

Gun Rights & President Ronald Reagan (Heavenly music playing)
A Pro Second Amendment President Who Supported Gun Control Measures

"Before Reagan left office in January 1989, efforts were afoot in Congress to pass legislation creating a national background check and mandatory waiting period for handgun purchases. The Brady Bill, as the legislation was named, had the backing of Sarah Brady, the wife of former Reagan press secretary Jim Brady, who was wounded in a 1981 assassination attempt on the president.

The Brady Bill initially struggled for support in Congress, but was gaining ground by the latter days of Reagan’s predecessor, President George H.W. Bush. In a 1991 op-ed for the New York Times, Reagan voiced his support for the Brady Bill, saying the 1981 assassination attempt might have never happened if the Brady Bill had been law.

Citing statistics suggesting 9,200 murders are committed each year in the United States using handguns, Reagan said, “This level of violence must be stopped. Sarah and Jim Brady are working hard to do that, and I say more power to them.” It was a 180 degree turn from Reagan’s 1975 piece in Guns & Ammo magazine, when he said that gun control is pointless because murder cannot be prevented.

Three years later, Congress had passed the Brady Bill and was working on another piece of gun control legislation, a ban on assault weapons. Reagan joined former Presidents Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter in a letter published in the Boston Globe that called on Congress to pass a ban on assault weapons. Later, in a letter to Rep. Scott Klug, a Wisconsin Republican, Reagan said the limitations proposed by the Assault Weapon Ban “are absolutely necessary” and that it “must be passed.” Klug voted in favor of the ban."

From an article by Ben Garrett

In 1986 President Reagan signed into law, Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986, the legislation amended the Gun Control Act of 1968 by repealing parts of the original act that were deemed by studies to be unconstitutional.

If the 2d Amendment is so absolute, why the need for any legislation giving gun owners the right to bear arms? I'm just asking..........

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
even though voting for President isn't even a constitutional right, aren't stricter gun laws, background checks and registering of arms also a suppression of our 2nd Amendment RIGHTS ??

Discuss.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 3:07 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Bing-O! As we've all learned (at least those of us with two brain cells to rub together who are paying attention) , for some it costs bus fair or gas to GO to the far-away places to get an ID, plus lost work time, on top of whatever charges the ID costs. Saying casually that "there are people who really can't scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status to vote for something they hold so dear?" also shows a level of ignorance few here possess.

So how do you feel about the time, effort, and cost of registering to vote? Should that onus be put on poor people?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Bing-O! As we've all learned (at least those of us with two brain cells to rub together who are paying attention) , for some it costs bus fair or gas to GO to the far-away places to get an ID, plus lost work time, on top of whatever charges the ID costs. Saying casually that "there are people who really can't scrounge up 5 bucks to show their legal status to vote for something they hold so dear?" also shows a level of ignorance few here possess.

So how do you feel about the time, effort, and cost of registering to vote? Should that onus be put on poor people?

Can you show me any states that charge you money to register to vote? I've never paid to register in Texas. Not even postage to send the form back when I've filled it out - it's postage-paid.

A quick Google search turns up several different states' policies on voter registration. So far they all tend to reflect this FAQ from Louisiana:

Quote:
Does it cost to register?

No. Registering to vote is a right afforded to you as a United States citizen by the Constitution of the United States.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:44 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

The power of the ballot has spoken my friend. When "W" was president many dems were not happy, myself included, but he won "fair and square" and I had to accept it. For 8 years he led the nation. No one spoke of voter ID then.

Why is voter ID so important now?

SGG

In every election I can remember, save for one instance, I was asked for my ID. Ask yourself the same question, but from the other side of the coin. Why is it such an issue ? Why are some putting up such a phony argument AGAINST showing ID ? How does in in the least infringe on anyone's 'civil rights', when we ask for similar ID checks in every day life ?

It doesn't, is the answer.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 9:44 AM

Now ask yourself the same question about gun purchases:

"How does it in the least infringe on anyone's 'civil rights', when we ask for similar ID checks?

It doesn't, is the answer."

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 9:46 AM

SGG, according to the GOP, the Voter ID thing is so important now because they were trying to suppress minority votes. They've come out and admitted as much on more than one occasion.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:24 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I read every single post from every RWA (meaning: Right Wing Asshole) looking for a single valid argument - and found none. Not one.

That's remarkable.

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I read every single post from every RWA (meaning: Right Wing Asshole) looking for a single valid argument - and found none. Not one.

That's remarkable.

If by "remarkable" you mean "common", then I agree. :)

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 12:30 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ay-yup.

Quote:
Seriously, if we could just cut the red states loose, most of our debt and deficit problems would be solved.

Ay-yup again.

I, too, have never heard of anyone having to pay to register, and as I see above, NOBODY has to.

Yeah, Kiki, not a single valid argument. I might also say that registering to vote puts one on a government "list", as does registering one's car, so why not a national list for registering a gun? Why does it "suppress one's civil rights" to have a national registration for guns any more than anything else? Don't bother answering, I know no answer will be any more valid than any other here.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 3:08 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Now ask yourself the same question about gun purchases:

"How does it in the least infringe on anyone's 'civil rights', when we ask for similar ID checks?

It doesn't, is the answer.

We already have that. We also already have a waiting period. Although probably excessive, we accept that, even as a FREE country.

What Americans should NOT accept is more limitations from the govt, upon our rights.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 3:09 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
I read every single post from every RWA (meaning: Right Wing Asshole) looking for a single valid argument - and found none. Not one.

That's remarkable.

Then you're not open minded, and you're a deluded idiot, and a complete myrmidon for the extreme, hard core far Left.

Congrats.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 4:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Now ask yourself the same question about gun purchases:

"How does it in the least infringe on anyone's 'civil rights', when we ask for similar ID checks?

It doesn't, is the answer.

We already have that. We also already have a waiting period.

Only for about 60% of gun sales. Guess where the bad guys are going to get their guns (Hint: Not to people who do background checks and enforce waiting periods.)

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:02 PM

Yes, you are right. I am asked for my voter registration card, which I obtained through the Board of Elections.

Qualifications to Register to Vote
?be a United States citizen;
?be 18 years old by December 31 of the year in which you file this form (note: you must be 18 years old by the date of the general, primary or other election in which you want to vote);
?live at your present address at least 30 days before an election;
?not be in prison or on parole for a felony conviction and;
?not be adjudged mentally incompetent by a court;
?not claim the right to vote elsewhere.

From the Voter Registration Form:

Verifying your identity -

We’ll try to check your identity before Election Day, through the DMV number (driver’s license number or non-driver ID number), or the last four digits of your social security number, which you’ll fill in below.
If you do not have a DMV or social security number, you may use a valid photo ID, a current utility bill, bank statement, paycheck, government check or some other government document that shows your name and address. You may include a copy of one of those types of ID when you mail this form.
If we are unable to verify your identity before Election Day, you will be asked for ID when you vote for the first time.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A voter is asked for their registration card and double checked against a list kept by the Board of Elections. Every time I have voted, they check my name and signature against the last time I voted. Every year I have voted.

This has been going on for years. The volunteers that work with the Board of Elections, usually senior members of our district, take great care and great pride in doing a thorough job. They carefully check to make sure each person has a voter registration card. Again, this has been going on for years. Nothing has changed. Afterward I go into the voting booth and vote. I've done this several times, ever since I first registered to vote.

To vote you need what is required to vote, as stated above. A person cannot vote without first registering to vote. You can't just walk in smile and say here I am.

What really bothers some folk, and the impetus behind this increased interest in showing ID at the polling sites, is the equally sudden interest, or better said, accusations, of voter fraud. A myth that many have come to believe is running rampant across the country. And that many more believe is behind the "impossible" win by one Barack Obama, for the Office of President of these United States.

Yes, I said Myth. Let's see how many cases of the "rampant" voter fraud are out there. Since 2000, "Out of hundreds of millions of ballots cast, they counted 633 incidents. Among states with voter ID laws on the books, Georgia and Kansas have seen the most prosecutions, with 80 and 97 cases respectively." 633 incidents in 12 years, that's approximately 53 a year.
OMG, an epidemic. Call the National Guard, we're being overrun.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2012/0
9/voter_id_laws_a_state_by_state_map_reveals_how_much_voter_fraud_there_is_in_the_united_states_almost_none_.html

Why do I bring this up? We are talking apples and oranges here. Showing ID to vote, at least in my state, is a requirement to obtain a voter registration card that allows one to vote. So, no it is not an "infringement" of one's Civil Rights. Far as I know anyone who is eligible to vote will usually exercise their right to vote, especially in these days of anti-democratic fervor.

So no, gun registration and the like is not a suppression of the right to bear arms. It is regulation and measures to ensure that bad people, with bad intentions, and mentally ill people, with no grip on reality, cannot get their grimy little hands on guns. Period. Tell me which of the president's 23 executive orders actually "infringes" on your right to get a gun. Or ammo.

Atricle II, Section 1 of the Constitution allows the President to issue an Executive Order, but it may be challenged by Congress. The Supreme Court can also challenge an EO based on the Constitutional "soundness" of the order (I paraphrase). Congress does not have to approve an EO.

SGG

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Sunday, January 20, 2013 10:35 PM

Here's another reason for better regulation and documentation of firearms:

http://kfor.com/2013/01/16/convicted-felon-arrested-for-illegal-gun-sh
ow-purchases/

There's another story, like the one above (sorry I can't find it on the internet) where a man, a convicted felon and NeoNazi, was caught with several guns and 40 thousand rounds of ammo, supposedly bought at a gun show.

I will keep looking for that article.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
even though voting for President isn't even a constitutional right, aren't stricter gun laws, background checks and registering of arms also a suppression of our 2nd Amendment RIGHTS ??

Discuss.

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." - Socrates

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, January 21, 2013 3:13 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Can you show me any states that charge you money to register to vote? I've never paid to register in Texas. Not even postage to send the form back when I've filled it out - it's postage-paid.

Not my point, and I don't believe its Niki's.

"...for some it costs bus fair or gas to GO to the far-away places to get an ID, plus lost work time, on top of whatever charges the ID costs."

If it's going to take time, effort, loss of wages and transportation costs to register to vote, even if registration is free, isn't that the same as taking, effort, loss of wages and transportation costs to get an ID, even if the ID is free?

Should we do away with voter registration, because it might be too onerous for some people?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 3:17 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Now ask yourself the same question about gun purchases:

"How does it in the least infringe on anyone's 'civil rights', when we ask for similar ID checks?

It doesn't, is the answer.

We already have that. We also already have a waiting period.

Only for about 60% of gun sales. Guess where the bad guys are going to get their guns (Hint: Not to people who do background checks and enforce waiting periods.)

Oh, you mean the same place they'll get them even with a universal background check system?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 3:26 AM

633 possible incidents of voter fraud, and we're told by the right that it's imperative we institute voter ID laws to verify every voter meets the legal requirements to vote.

Hell, there've been more than 633 gun murders just since the Newtown massacre - more than 30,000 gun deaths a year - but we're told we can do absolutely nothing to address that issue.

This makes it abundantly clear that the "pro-life" party doesn't give two shits about your life. They want people to continue to murder each other, just as long as the poorer ones don't actually show up to try to vote to change anything.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 3:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Now ask yourself the same question about gun purchases:

"How does it in the least infringe on anyone's 'civil rights', when we ask for similar ID checks?

It doesn't, is the answer.

We already have that. We also already have a waiting period.

Only for about 60% of gun sales. Guess where the bad guys are going to get their guns (Hint: Not to people who do background checks and enforce waiting periods.)

Oh, you mean the same place they'll get them even with a universal background check system?

I see you just got back from Burning Man again.

You're still trying to apply the logic that "If we can't stop 100% of illegal activity, we can't try to stop any of it."

If only you'd apply that same logic to the voter ID issue or the abortion debate.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 4:03 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Hell, there've been more than 633 gun murders just since the Newtown massacre - more than 30,000 gun deaths a year - but we're told we can do absolutely nothing to address that issue.

Nope. I noted in another thread that several of President Obama's recommendations seemed reasonable to me, and seemed to have a good chance at reducing gun violence. Stuff like increased prosecution and penalties for straw purchases, illegal gun sales, and the use of guns in crime; inclusion of folks with potential for harm due to mental health issues on the background check database; overall improvement in mental health care; anti-violence and anti-bullying initiatives in schools; etc.

You seem to be trying to apply the logic that if folks don't support 100% of laws and regulations to address gun violence, then they are supporting none of them.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, January 21, 2013 4:39 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We already have that. We also already have a waiting period. Although probably excessive, we accept that, even as a FREE country.

What Americans should NOT accept is more limitations from the govt, upon our rights.

It is also a country in which the people can call for laws to be made that restrict freedoms is they feel they are needed. Remember it is possible amend the Constitution and ban all gun ownership out right.

Also remember the Supreme Court has ruled that some restrictions on gun ownership are not infringements on a persons rights.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, January 21, 2013 5:40 AM