Ethical question by RionaEire

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Ethical question

POSTED BY: RIONAEIRE
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 17:32
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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:10 AM

Beir bua agus beannacht

So I go to Geek trivia every other Tue. Its really fun and I have a team I play on each time, lots of cool people there etc. and its always a good time. The question revolves around what is considered cheating and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

The rule is that we are not allowed to use devices in order to look up answers during the rounds, fairly obvious. I totally understand that rule. But my friend and I disagree about whether it is cheating to anticipate a question or questions that will be asked and have the answers written down on a piece of paper in my purse at all times, in case those inevitable questions are asked.

I have a list of Alien crew members in my purse, because I just know they'll ask that someday. Nance says that is cheating. Do you guys think superior intellect and planning ahead skills are cheating?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:40 AM

BYTEMITE

What you describe would technically be called a "cheat sheet." That might answer your question right there.

It's an advantage that the other team doesn't have and it's not being straight up with the actual scope of your memorized knowledge. Trivia contests aren't a measure of intelligence or planning, they're a measure of what you've memorized.

A paper device that you use to look up answers is really kind of just as bad as an electronic device under these rules, it's not like they'd let you bring in a set of flashcards, pop-culture encyclopedias, or dictionaries.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:48 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
A paper device that you use to look up answers is really kind of just as bad as an electronic device, it's not like they'd let you bring in a set of flashcards, pop-culture encyclopedias, or dictionaries.

That's pretty much it, as I see it. I save some quotes from here to answer things that I know will come up, but we have no such rules, so it doesn't matter. But if that's a rule, then it should be followed.

And it does not represent "superior intellect" to save something to use in future. True superior intellect would be to be able to effectively respond to a question from one's own mind, be it via memory or logic.

"Planning ahead skills", in this context, precisely describes what a student is doing when taking along answers they know will be asked on a test. True planning-ahead skills would be studying the subject and learning enough about it to be able to use your own words to solve a question or make a valid argument.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:50 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The way I see it, you either know things or you don't. There's nothing wrong with doing research on topics to enhance your general knowledge, but you must then be able to stand up on your own two feet when called in on the carpet. At that point you just have to know it.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 9:06 AM

BYTEMITE

Quote:
But it is just a game. It is supposed to be fun.

Hiding notes so you have a better chance of winning at trivia is kinda the definition of taking things seriously.

Fun is about the challenge, the risk, the potential of both winning AND losing.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 9:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

And those are RULES of the game, Tam. Is cheating fair because "it's just a game"? Do you cheat at games? Or do you play them as fair contests between people which they enjoy BECAUSE they are equally pitted against one another?

How would you feel if someone beat you at Monopoly by cheating? After all, it's only a game...

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 9:25 AM

BYTEMITE

I learned how to play solitaire on the computer. The version I learned to play allows me to draw cards singly from the deck, and also to take back the last move I made.

My family considers those rules too easy, and thinks I cheat at solitaire. But I still lose sometimes, and it doesn't effect anyone but myself.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:56 AM

AGENTROUKA

I agree that it's cheating. It's not so different from googling the answers, only your version of google is made of paper and has the answer to only one question. You're still looking it up.

Byte, I do the same thing. :) Reversing moves is cheating, I guess, but I don't care. I just enjoy the process of cleaning up all those cards, so whatever. Heh.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:37 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
So I go to Geek trivia every other Tue. Its really fun and I have a team I play on each time, lots of cool people there etc. and its always a good time. The question revolves around what is considered cheating and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.

The rule is that we are not allowed to use devices in order to look up answers during the rounds, fairly obvious. I totally understand that rule. But my friend and I disagree about whether it is cheating to anticipate a question or questions that will be asked and have the answers written down on a piece of paper in my purse at all times, in case those inevitable questions are asked.

I have a list of Alien crew members in my purse, because I just know they'll ask that someday. Nance says that is cheating. Do you guys think superior intellect and planning ahead skills are cheating?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

If there is no rule about bringing notes with you it is not cheating.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:47 AM

BYTEMITE

Yet there are rules about looking stuff up.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:04 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Yet there are rules about looking stuff up.

If the rule is only specificly against using electronic devices to look things up during the game than a cheat sheet is not cheating.

In the end it depends on the rules.

Now just because it is not cheating does not mean other players will not be pissed off or that having a cheat sheet is not a massive dick-move. It is in bad taste and really should not be done.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:23 PM

BYTEMITE

Letter of the rule versus spirit of the rule. WHY would the others be pissed off and why is it a rule?

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 12:27 PM

BYTEMITE

I have a friend who goes around to other tables looking at their answers as they write them down then reports back to me. But the trivia game gives no rules for using my friend to discern the answer from other people even though it puts them at a disadvantage. Therefore it's not cheating.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 1:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
The rule is that we are not allowed to use devices in order to look up answers during the rounds, fairly obvious.

The cheat sheet you're using is a "device" used in order to look up answers. Fairly obvious. An encyclopedia would also be such a device.

You have you and your brain, and that's all you're supposed to rely on in such tournaments.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 2:00 PM

STORYMARK

Going to have to agree that it's cheating. Just barely - but it is. It may adhere strictly to the rule of law, but as mentioned, not the spirit.

Excuse me while I soak in all these sweet, sweet conservative tears.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:28 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Its so interesting that I don't see an ethical problem with this but others do. They specifically reference "electronic" devices when stating the rules every week. Why should I be kept from succeding because I'm cleverer and plan ahead? I think with a school test its different because with a school test you know basically what will be on it, and in school tests the explicit rules are "no notes of any kind". I think its interesting that Nick sees where I'm coming from but others don't.

I'm the kind of person who will follow rules as best as I can if I understand them and think they make sense. But if I don't understand them or think they're dumb then I'll figure out how to get around them, I've been this way ever since I was a tiny girl. If I understood my parents' rules (which I usually did) I would follow them willingly, but if they had rules that I thought were dumb and I didn't understand them then I would sneak and disobey. Sometimes I would feel guilty and confess later and sometimes I wouldn't. But that is all irrelevent because the rule doesn't say "no notes which indicate forthought hidden in your purse for potential future use."

Oh well, obviously we will do what my teammates want to do.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 3:41 PM

AGENTROUKA

But is it really cleverer or simply that the others already consider it cheating and simply don't want to use a cheat sheet? I mean, I doubt they'd go "D'oh, why didn't I think of using one?" if they saw you using it, rather than being annoyed that you're looking up answers instead of producing them from memory.

In a fun game where everyone gets together to enjoy themselves, it's usually best to follow the spirit of the rules rather than the letter because sneaking around what is generally implied (even if not stated) is just taking the need to win way too far. Ruins the fun.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:50 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

It was merely a rhetorical question, meant to have you think a minute about how you'd feel if someone cheated on YOU, nothing more. Although it's only rhetorical, considering Monopoly one could make a diversion then move a piece of their own or someone else's, one could move in such a way as to steal someone else's motel or money or something, that's just off the top of my head. It's not important.

I think the majority decision, by far and away, is that cheating--making a way to take special advantage over others--isn't good. Essentially what it is, to me, is lack of respect for the other players and gaining an unfair advantage.

It happens to be a bugaboo of my own, along with lying, so I probably feel stronger about it than some others. But I think you would find that at least some of your fellow players would be pissed off, would see it as a lack of respect and a lack of playing fair. It might well erode one or another's trust in you as a person. How one plays "games"--things like this--is an indication of how they deal with others in real life, as far as I'm concerned. Picking and choosing which rules to obey, for whatever reason, shows your moral character. If winning some silly game is more important to you than doing the right thing, that's up to you.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 5:23 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
They specifically reference "electronic" devices when stating the rules every week.

And you specifically did not reference "electronic" devices when stating your question.

Technically, by the rule of law, you're not cheating. But you're breaking the spirit of the rules. You could win in a courtroom on a technicality via such a loophole, but you'll be outcast from the group as "THAT person", the one who made the whole game be not fun anymore.

"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Tuesday, January 29, 2013 5:32 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

You're probably right Quicko, even though I'm technically right I don't want to make things unfun for my comrades, and sometimes conformity is best. Sometimes being part of the social group is more important than being right. I'll not bring it up if we get asked to name all the Alien crew members, you've convinced me. Still reluctant to give in, but getting along is better than being right in this situation if being right and clever will cause people to not like me. I benefit far more by pleasing others in this scenario.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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