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The Hitler Conundrum

POSTED BY: RIONAEIRE
UPDATED: Monday, May 27, 2024 04:55
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Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Okay, so what do you guys think? Because I'm perplexed.

So I'm talking to this guy today (not at work BTW) and he comments that he likes my tree of life purse (Celtic symbol) so I assume he likes Irish things, logical enough right? Because that's why _I have it. So I ask "So if you like Irish things you're probably excited for St. Patrick's day coming up?". A logical question, because that's the day everyone does Irish things and its cool instead of being different, or at least non mainstream, I love St. Patrick's day I dress up pretty and curl my hair and go all over and listen to my kind of music (its the one day a year when people come around to my way of thinking, at least musically). So that's not a weird question to ask this guy.

So his response is "NO. My family are Druids and so he's like our Hitler". Well that one threw me for a loop. I have lots of Pagan friends and none of them have ever said _that. So I was rather flabbergasted. Okay, I'm sure there are pagans who don't prefer Patrick, he might not be their favorite person, they might see him as a negative figure, okay. But Hitler? Kill 12 million people and _then you can be compared to Hitler okay? Melodrama anyone?

But the interesting thing about this encounter is that its not the first time I've had a "Hitler incident" pop up. Here's the other time: So y'all know about my not-so-secret crush on Genghis Khan. My bigger crush is on his blood brother Jamuqa (look him up) but no one's heard of him, so for general purposes Genghis will do. Why do I have a rediculous crush on a historical figure who was no doubt ruthless and cruel? I don't know, I just do. Anyways most people think its funny if I tell them, because ... it is funny. But someone I work with was like "Do you have a crush on Hitler too?". I was rather mortified. Sure Temujin isn't a class act of a guy, but in the ranking of historical big baddies do you rank him equally with The Big One? Because it doesn't get worse than Hitler.

So why does this keep happening to me? Shrug. People are impossible.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya


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Wednesday, February 27, 2013 11:24 PM

AGENTROUKA


Maybe Son Of Druids was just trying to be funny? I don't know whether St. Patrick is associated with violence toward pagans, so I cannot judge that one, at all.


But I can sort of see, while terribly rude, where your coworker was coming from. I mean, when you get down to it, you're playing a numbers game. Hitler ranks up there for you because of the sheer volume of death, destruction, injustice and misery that is associated with him. But he is not necessarily different in nature from other horrid historical figures, who also started wars or persecuted minorities or caused suffering and death in other ways. He's just more recent and high up on the numerical scale.

So that's something worth keeping in mind when the comparison seems unflattering to you.



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Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:10 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Here's a rather amazing series of podcasts dealing with Temujin and the Khans who followed.

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive

It's five parts, each nearly two hours long, but it's fascinating. This guy brings history to life like nobody else.

And bear in mind that a lot of that "mixing with the locals" is just polite talk for "raping every woman in sight."

We can talk about the Khans with some disconnect and without all the heat and passion now because all this was the better part of a thousand years ago, and none of us know anyone who was hurt by their brutality. In 800 years, perhaps people will speak as dispassionately about Hitler's time.

As far as numbers of people killed, historians put it somewhere between "millions" and up to 50 million, so he ranks right up there alongside any other murderous despot.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 5:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

So his response is "NO. My family are Druids and so he's like our Hitler". Well that one threw me for a loop. I have lots of Pagan friends and none of them have ever said _that. So I was rather flabbergasted. Okay, I'm sure there are pagans who don't prefer Patrick, he might not be their favorite person, they might see him as a negative figure, okay. But Hitler? Kill 12 million people and _then you can be compared to Hitler okay? Melodrama anyone?


Ehm... Well, St. Patrick didn't kill 12 million people. But pagan folklore does credit him with ending the practice of druidism in Ireland. Supposedly, that's what driving the "snakes" out of Ireland meant. Snakes might have been a euphemism for druids.

*shrug* Not as bad as the holocaust, but the guy you met kinda has a point there, why should we celebrate someone for committing genocide? Celebrate Ireland, but leave that out of it. That's how I see it. In fact, celebrate the week around it and call it "Seachtain na Gaeilge," that's what a lot of people do.

I do look forward to then, probably bake some cabbage and potatoes. Then break with tradition and totally slather them both with ketchup, the perfect condiment. And spice bread, I'll make SPICE BREAD. Anyone here doing colcannon?

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 6:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Here's a rather amazing series of podcasts dealing with Temujin and the Khans who followed.

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hharchive

It's five parts, each nearly two hours long, but it's fascinating. This guy brings history to life like nobody else.

And bear in mind that a lot of that "mixing with the locals" is just polite talk for "raping every woman in sight."

We can talk about the Khans with some disconnect and without all the heat and passion now because all this was the better part of a thousand years ago, and none of us know anyone who was hurt by their brutality. In 800 years, perhaps people will speak as dispassionately about Hitler's time.

As far as numbers of people killed, historians put it somewhere between "millions" and up to 50 million, so he ranks right up there alongside any other murderous despot.


There's a reason why most of the world's population has a bit of Mongol blood in them. Actually a number of us might even be distantly related to Genghis Khan.

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Riona has a crush on Genghis Khan?

Well, that figures.


Nice girls almost always end up digging the bad boys.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:07 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
There's a reason why most of the world's population has a bit of Mongol blood in them. Actually a number of us might even be distantly related to Genghis Khan.

Not sure about Genghis Khan, but my mother went to high school with James Caan.

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 10:38 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:

Yes, that "mixing with the locals" was rape but some may have had actual wives from the local population and even stayed behind.


One probably doesn't exclude the other. I don't expect the wives in question had much choice in the matter.

Ah, the sanctity of traditional marriage...

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:19 AM

HKCAVALIER


Um. Byte sorta covered this, Riona, but yeah, St. Patrick was responsible for KILLING/CONVERTING THROUGH TORTURE the Druids in Ireland and drove the practice of Druidism entirely underground. Before St. Patrick, Ireland was pretty much all Druidic, so "driving the snakes out of Ireland" wasn't just shutting down some obscure priesthood, but the wholesale destruction of the indigenous culture of Ireland. It's a big deal.

So, yeah, genocide, and forced conversions (cultural genocide) were the order of the day. It is debated whether or not he and his church destroyed Druidic practice completely or not. Of course, many of its traditions were appropriated by the Catholics in their rituals and holiday celebrations.

And now after a couple minutes googling, I see that this information is readily available on the internet. Riona, if you cared, all you would have had to do was look it up instead of presuming that this guy was crazy. I find your breezy dismissal of the cultural devastation wrought by your heroes pretty disturbing. Have at least a little tact. Ignorance is no excuse when anyone can google.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Riona has a crush on Genghis Khan?

Well, that figures.


Nice girls almost always end up digging the bad boys.





*twitch*

*goes INSANER*

I will sing the end days I swear it

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Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:26 PM

AGENTROUKA


That is probably also true. Probably doesn't account for the majority of all that prolific Mongol DNA sharing Byte mentioned, though. Or involved the wives having any say in the matter. Which, in a more general way, just shows how much patriarchy sucks. Yay for women's rights!

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Friday, March 1, 2013 3:12 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Okay, so what do you guys think? Because I'm perplexed.


That's all really interesting questions Riona.... On sheer subject matter anyway, I'm the wrong person to ask. I'm just barely majority Irish, logging in about 27.5% Irish, barely beating out my 25% Polish. I didn't even know I was majority Irish until I heard for the first time that there is Irish Ancestry on my Dad's side. He was already a European Mutt himself. My mom was 50/50 Irish/Polish though.

That being said, I know as much about St. Patrick as I do Pulaski.... which is to say I grew up thinking about them both along the lines of Santa Claus. Honestly, to this day, without looking either up on Wikipedia, I couldn't tell you a single thing they did, let alone why they had days of the year named after them.



What I can say, is that the adage "history is written by the winners" is true. Although I'm sure anything St. Patty did wouldn't hold a candle to Hitler's legacy, I highly doubt that even what Hitler supposedly did would live up to his own legacy.

Really though, I'd just chalk it up to a few basic truths. People, in general, are stupid. People, in general, are easily led. People, in general, want to sound witty in their oftentimes misguided and stupid beliefs. He could have just as easily had said that St. Patty was his "Ghengis Kahn", but assuming he doesn't know you very well, you might have just shrugged that one off. "Hitler" as cliche as any reference about him has become in the last nearly 70 years, will never be lost on anyone.

If you were both big Star Wars fans and both knew it (in your second example), they could have just as easily asked "Do you have a crush on Emperor Palpatine too?" Maybe you both loved the Harry Potter books and they asked "Do you have a crush on Lord Voldemort too?". It could even get really obscure if you knew each other VERY well. Say you both had a discussion one day that you loved old Final Fantasy games. They could ask "Do you have a crush on Kefka too?????"

I wouldn't take any offense to it, or worry for a second that this is not the first time you've been asked this question. If I had to guess, similar questions with the mention of Hitler are probably asked 1,000 times a day online and in person during debates and regular conversation. If nothing else, the fact that "Hitler" even came out of their mouth shows how one dimensional they are, and is not at all a reflection on you.




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Friday, March 1, 2013 6:01 AM

BYTEMITE


I actually mostly approve of comparing things to Hitler and the Nazis when appropriate, because it brings it down to Earth. We're not talking about lofty unachievable evil, the most evil that anyone has ever committed and no one will ever again. We're talking about evil that any insane hateful paranoid meglomaniac could do, that we always have to be vigilant against.

So saying that both St. Patrick and Hitler committed genocide is a perfectly valid comparison IMO. Like saying Stalin and Hitler committed genocide. St. Patrick, Hitler, and Stalin are evil because of the genocide - the numbers make one example more horrific, true, but it doesn't make either of them "less" evil. Genocide is genocide.

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Friday, March 1, 2013 6:56 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


No real proof, is all I'm saying Byte....

Saying "Hitler" this or "Hitler" that is like quoting Disney....




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Friday, March 1, 2013 7:58 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:
So y'all know about my not-so-secret crush on Genghis Khan.

Lol, no I didn't. How did that come about? I'm guessing (hoping) it wasn't from reading accounts of his atrocities...

I've read a book called 'Wolf of the Plains', which is a very good fictionalised version of Genghis's rise to power and prominence - but based mainly on real, documented history. Genghis was definitely a very impressive man.


It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, March 1, 2013 1:12 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
No real proof, is all I'm saying Byte....

Saying "Hitler" this or "Hitler" that is like quoting Disney....



Yeah, Disney was another evil anti-Semite, all right.



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, March 2, 2013 9:56 AM

JONGSSTRAW


There's just no pleasing a Druish Princess......(sorry Mel)

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Saturday, March 2, 2013 12:10 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
No real proof, is all I'm saying Byte....

Saying "Hitler" this or "Hitler" that is like quoting Disney....



It's true, I can't confirm that he killed people. But destroying culture is also a kind of genocide, and surely he promoted discrimination against the old ways. Apart from copping their holidays.

I don't hate St. Patrick like this Druidic family - who almost certainly were probably christian not 20 years ago. But I can somewhat understand where the person Riona met is coming from, even though I think he doesn't really have rights to outrage or anger beyond what everyone must feel towards genocide.

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Saturday, March 2, 2013 1:10 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Nazi porno Prince Harry Potty separated at birth from Major Hewitt

All religions do lots of killin.

Druids love roasting babies over BONE-fires.
https://www.google.com/search?q=druids+bonefires

British royals eat the brains of Irishmen.

Prince Charles gets buggered by his butler.

Prince Philip holds George Bush's spotted dick at Bohemian Grove ("the queen's favorite dessert").

BBC TV hosts rape little children for the pope and Satan.

Who knew?


British places that eat Mr Brains Faggots

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Saturday, March 2, 2013 2:20 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Rione, the guy sounds like a bit of a jerk, because there isn't any way that he could really compare his experiences of choosing to be a druid and what happened 1600 years ago with St Patrick and the experience of modern days Jews and Hitler.

Nevertheless, I guess its not a bad idea to keep in mind how people gained their mythological status ...that is 'great deeds' too often equals 'lots of people died'.

History is written by the victors, so becomes the myth that is St Patrick. If Hitler had won, the story of WW2 would be very different to the one we tell today.

I saw a film on Ghengis Khan recently, and it made him out to be pretty awesome. I think it was a mongolian film, so that probably explains it.

I find a lot of people who admire celtic lifestyle are often really looking at a pretty artificial construct that bears little reality to past or present. Plastic Paddies, we call them here.

But whatever floats your boat. Sounds like he was either kidding or a bit of a jerk.

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Sunday, March 3, 2013 7:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I appreciate the _reasonable responses here. There were _some. I can understand how this individual wouldn't like St. Patrick and would have feelings of anomocity to him. He was just way too melodramatic, I mean that is a statement that is waiting for a fight right there. I didn't give him one though, if that's how he feels I need to respect that as his experience and beliefs and feelings. But he's definitely a drama queen in my book, supported by the fact that I asked my friend (who is culturally Jewish and pagan in beliefs) what she thought of the incident. She said that she understood where he was coming from, but its in bad taste to compare anyone to Hitler, ever. That is what I figured she'd say, since she's a somewhat rational person. But since she's blunt and says whatever she thinks I knew she'd be honest with me.

Regarding Genghis Khan, I don't know what it is that I crush on, since he did some horrible things that I totally don't condone. There's just something. Like I said I'm more infatuated with his blood brother Jamuqa, but people don't know who that is, so Genghis will do. And no, reading his atrocities did not give me the crush on him.

At least Temujin is an equal oppertunity murderer/pillager, anyone would do, he didn't have a group of people that were his least favorite, beyond the expected tribe and clan rivalries that came with the poisoning of his father during his little boyhood etc.



"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, March 3, 2013 9:47 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Riona, it sounds to me like he did exactly what he was hoping for... he got you to think about who you identify with in a new way. He was wiser and more effective than you give him credit for.

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Sunday, March 3, 2013 10:09 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


But guess who's still going to have a fabulous day anyway on March 17th? My cursory searches online for "St. Patrick" and "genocide" yielded mainly fringe websites, I'll look on wikipedia sometime and see what it says, but that's as far as it will go I reckon.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 4, 2013 4:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Wikipedia basically has a one line speculation about St. Patrick and the connection with the Druids. So it's not completely unheard of even on wikipedia, and some historians buy into it, but the interpretation still has a measure of uncertainty.

Unfortunately I'm not sure the Irish were really keeping records much prior to Christianity, they mostly taught history through folktales and such. So we'll probably never know.

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Monday, March 4, 2013 7:48 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Regarding Genghis Khan, I don't know what it is that I crush on, since he did some horrible things that I totally don't condone. There's just something. Like I said I'm more infatuated with his blood brother Jamuqa, but people don't know who that is, so Genghis will do. And no, reading his atrocities did not give me the crush on him.


Likely, it was his virility, or at least what was written about him in the history books.

There comes an apex of masculinity that only a chosen few achieve that women, particularly women predisposed to be strongly drawn to that type, can't look away from. Even though they are aware of the potentially horrible things he's done, they find it not-so-difficult to overlook those possible character flaws because they're left spellbound by what he has accomplished by sheer will (and also of the security and comfort life would bring to be by the side of such a man).

Also likely, there were "tomes" written about the atrocities of Genghis Khan that portrayed him at the time, much like we portray Hitler today. They're probably out there for anyone to peruse today, since hardly anybody reads anything and it doesn't matter, true or not.

Actually Riona, you're better off than a lot of folk....

Obviously, you're not defending Hitler, which I'm sure many women to this day still do in secret. You're also not defending GWB or Obama either, which I know for a fact that many Americans still do.

So.... you've got a "thing" for one of the potentially most evil men who has ever walked the earth???? (if we believe everything our history books taught us)....

I've probably been involved with at least five women in my life that would get under his skin and into his head and make him run for the hills. Have I looked evil in the eyes that has committed Genocide and fell in love? Not yet.... Are any one of those sinfully compelling women incapable of it? I can't deny it....

Who's to say that GK wasn't just a puppet for some "Cleopatra" of his time anyhow?

We can't even get a straight answer about what really happened in 1945.

I'm sure that the "Life and Times of GK" are wildly left up to interpretation....



Moral of the story here.... Druids... or at least your lame co-worker, really need to get a life.....


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Monday, March 4, 2013 8:17 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
There comes an apex of masculinity that only a chosen few achieve that women, particularly women predisposed to be strongly drawn to that type, can't look away from. Even though they are aware of the potentially horrible things he's done, they find it not-so-difficult to overlook those possible character flaws because they're left spellbound by what he has accomplished by sheer will (and also of the security and comfort life would bring to be by the side of such a man).


Or the women aren't really in a position to say no.

I can see it now - their eyes meet across the burning thatch of collapsed houses, him tall on his pitch black horse, holding a bow nocked with an arrow aimed right between her eyes. She screams in terror. It must be love.

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Monday, March 4, 2013 8:55 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Genghis Khan was a great 1965 movie with an impressive international cast.





Cast

Stephen Boyd ... Jamuga
Omar Sharif ... Temujin-Genghis Khan
James Mason ... Kam Ling
Eli Wallach ... The Shah of Khwarezm
* Françoise Dorléac ... Bortei
Telly Savalas ... Shan
Robert Morley ... The Emperor of China
Woody Strode ... Sengal


* Francoise Dorleac was the younger sister of Catherine Deneuve. She was on her way to having a big career in films, but she was killed in a car crash shortly after filming Genghis Khan. Catherine Deneuve went on to become a big movie star, and was named the most beautiful woman in world.




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Monday, March 4, 2013 9:56 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Or the women aren't really in a position to say no.

I can see it now - their eyes meet across the burning thatch of collapsed houses, him tall on his pitch black horse, holding a bow nocked with an arrow aimed right between her eyes. She screams in terror. It must be love.


To her own admission, Riona has a crush on the guy.

No flaming arrow to her head. In fact, he's been dead many a fortnight before this thread was created....

Don't be so quick to judge.....

If you knew the cold-hearted (and very alive) woman I was truly in love with, you'd think GK was a saint for being dead before he made Riona crush on him.....


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Monday, March 4, 2013 10:20 AM

BYTEMITE


I wasn't judging her, she's explained to me why, and it really had nothing to do with feeling like she'd want to be "in his power" so to speak.

It's more about she approved of how he treated his family members and organized his empire after the raiding, which brought peace to quite a large swath of land. The guy was a dangerous marauder responsible for a lot of rape and war, but apparently even guys like that can have a nicer side.

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Monday, March 4, 2013 10:36 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I wasn't judging her, she's explained to me why, and it really had nothing to do with feeling like she'd want to be "in his power" so to speak.

It's more about she approved of how he treated his family members and organized his empire after the raiding, which brought peace to quite a large swath of land. The guy was a dangerous marauder responsible for a lot of rape and war, but apparently even guys like that can have a nicer side.


Did it really have nothing to do with that Byte? Did it not? Unless you're deep in her head and fantasies, you could never say one way or another.

Of course, any attraction had everything to do with all the "good" in him, as far as treating his family and empire. Not speaking at all for Riona here, but just saying that this is the mentality that any woman who stays with an abusive and/or alcoholic husband in this age and reasons to her friends after the 15th time she's pretended to be clumsy and fall down the stairs.

Many women would love to be as lucky as Riona is. To be free to crush on who she wants, when she wants..... to fufill a fantasy without any of the negative physicality Khan surely gave to his lovers, no long term commitment, no worry about exposing their children to any of it.

When she "comes back" to reality, it's still not to a boring and mundane life filled with a boring husband and boring kids and the monotony of it all.



I'm thinking that you are closer to knowing what I'm talking about than any other woman on the board, Byte.

As tight-lipped as you are, we may never even have the slightest peek inside of your head, but I can guaranty that it would be a fun ride.




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Monday, March 4, 2013 10:58 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
Did it really have nothing to do with that Byte? Did it not? Unless you're deep in her head and fantasies, you could never say one way or another.


Well, maybe I have no idea what she said to me, and maybe people lie all the time to their friends about the reasons they have a crush on long dead much feared leaders of armies that rampaged across asia minor. It could totally happen.

Quote:
Not speaking at all for Riona here, but just saying that this is the mentality that any woman who stays with an abusive and/or alcoholic husband in this age and reasons to her friends after the 15th time she's pretended to be clumsy and fall down the stairs.


I'm sure that staying with him because she likes to be hit is the more likely reason.

But, I will give you credit in that not having to deal with someone else's negatives is what makes it possible for some people to have a crush on the totally wicked types.

Like how people have crushes on Jayne, or Mal, when both of them would probably be completely intolerable in real life.

Quote:
As tight-lipped as you are, we may never even have the slightest peek inside of your head, but I can guaranty that it would be a fun ride.


You do like to be disappointed, don't you? Perhaps someday, I'll fill you in on all my misadventures napping on top of a pile of unfinished paperwork. Thrilling.

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Monday, March 4, 2013 12:39 PM

BYTEMITE


Exactly the argument I have used in the past. Genocide doesn't HAVE to be killing to be effective in destroying a group.

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Monday, March 4, 2013 2:54 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Cool Jong. Not sure if I knew about this film. Love, love Omar Sharif. I'll have to take a look for it. :)

I'm also a big Omar Sharif fan. Despite the popularity of Dr. Zhivago, I think Genghis Khan is his finest role. Also, Stephen Boyd (Marsalla in Ben Hur) plays a really nasty Jamuga. It's quite a good movie with a few racy scenes, so be sure to watch it uncut. Here's a picture of the happy couple...



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Monday, March 4, 2013 3:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I wish someone (in America) would make a new Genghis film. I've seen the two available in English, the one mentioned already and the Conquorer (which is actually quite entertaining once you get over the fact that John Wayne is playing Temujin, if you can get over that its actually a cool movie.). there are some done in Russian, Mandarin, Mongolian etc. but they have subtitles and we can't really do subtitles at our house. My dad can't read them to me fast enough, unless they're in Lakota or another language that is on the liesurely side. I was hoping to rent one of those foreign Genghis films and have Mary come over to watch it with me and read me the subtitles, but she's in a little city 5 hours away now, so no such luck. Why can't America be small like Ireland? Then Mary would not be so very far away living in the next "state" over.

I don't really get crushes on real men, just men from history and from books, movies and shows. Real men don't ever seem that appealing. I have a very small crush on this guy I play trivia with, but that hasn't gone anywhere and it won't now that he has a girlfriend. I'm so particular about what I do and don't want that there isn't a real man in the world most likely which would suit me. For goodness sake, my needs in a man are so difficult to meet that that's nye on impossible, much less my wants and hoped for traits. I suspect there's no one out there for me.

In regards to what Jack speculates as to why a woman would have a crush on Genghis Khan, most of it is what Byte said, he had a rich family life, loved his first wife and kids a lot, even though he took other wives, but that's what conquorers did back then. He was very close with his mom too and he instigated a new writing system for Mongolia and yata yata yata. But there is a piece of me that is drawn to men with power, not power over me, but just power in general, and I've never really thought about it before, but the security of feeling protected by someone who can end anyone who would try to harm me is quite appealing too.

Other people I have crushes on: Capt. Picard, Simon Tam, Mal, Shiloh Irons, Jamuqa, the guy on Dances With Wolves (not Kevin Costner, but the charactor). I don't get crushes on actors, I get crushes on charactors, because the actor isn't the same person as the charactor. I have others but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

Real guys just don't appeal to me.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 4, 2013 3:30 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That movie was okay, but it got Jamuqa wrong. Temujin and Jamuqa are blood brothers, then they become rivals because they both have ambitions and aspirations for power. Then Jamuqa's men turn him in and Temujin has those traitors killed, because Temujin hates traitors, even if they are trying to help _him. So Jamuqa and Temujin talk, temujin says he loves Jamuqa and they can begin again. But Jamuqa says he knows that can't ever be, that Temujin is the winner and he will always be a thorn in Temujin's side. So he asks to be killed in the honorable fashion. Temujin reluctantly agrees and has it done. I love the story of those two, its so sad that Jamuqa dies at the end though. I'm really into super intense best friendships though, so of course I just eat up this sort of thing.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 4, 2013 5:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
But there is a piece of me that is drawn to men with power, not power over me, but just power in general, and I've never really thought about it before, but the security of feeling protected by someone who can end anyone who would try to harm me is quite appealing too.


Scandalous!

Eh, I guess it's not an uncommon sentiment, but not one I understand. A guy getting all patronizing tends to get me bristling and snarling more than usual, and more likely than anything else I'll have a grudge about it.

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Monday, March 4, 2013 5:37 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I would agree if he were patronizing it would lose its appeal. Its such a subtile thing, the things I like in men, they have to be just so, not too far one way or the other.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 4, 2013 11:31 PM

AGENTROUKA


It's really probably the most common escapist female fantasy and my personal guess is that it's not so much the power but the competence and confidence of the character who wields it. This guy knows what he wants, and if that happens to be you, there is going to be no ambiguity or uncertainty. Being wanted and valued becomes a fact, not through pesky effort but through simply being. Surely being wanted by someone that accomplished is proof enough of personal worth.

It's a rescue fantasy. Instant self-worth, emotional power, life-long security and second-degree glory (his accomplishments reflect on you) without any of the rejection, pressure, uncertainty and failure that would mark attempting to achieve those things by yourself.

You'll find a lot fewer women crushing on Louis XVI of France, who was theoretically an absolute monarch because he was shy, bumbling and deeply sexually insecure. You don't feel safe with that guy, you have to listen to him drone on about his locksmith hobby while he refuses to sleep with you and people laugh at him. And then you'll be beheaded.


I doesn't really bother me. Wanting to escape real-life pressures to an effortless security is a human trope and most women are handling so many real-life responsibilities with so many personal insecurities, it's utterly natural that their fantasy is to make all of that instantly disappear.

Plus, it's how girls are taught to fantasize. Historically, women were rarely rulers but wives or lovers of rulers. And fairy tale happy endings tend to use marriage as the reward. Women are taught they need a man's desire to feel complete and so even if given the choice, most would probably choose to be the hero's wife rather than the heroine who accomplishes the same grand things herself.

Final verdict: Only semi-troubling. More a reflection of real problems than a problem itself. I'm not going to look down on a woman who indulges in such fantasies, at all. I would only worry if she tried to replicate it in real life.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
I would agree if he were patronizing it would lose its appeal.


The problem is by definition it's patronizing - the word has roots meaning monetary support for a reason. It's just some kinds of patronizing seem nicer and are more insidious than others. But being nice about it doesn't make it not patronizing.

It's basically saying, you don't have to take care of yourself, I'll do that for you. And for someone like me, it's deeply constrictive and more than a little offensive - if they think they're *expected* to act that way and take care of their partner, there's the implication that their partner is expected to act like a docile little DOLL who can't take care of themselves. All because of gender roles. INFURIATING.

Quote:
Only semi-troubling. More a reflection of real problems than a problem itself.


Realistically, people have to solve their own problems. No one wants to have to live up to those kinds of expectations, be they man or woman. No one wants a partner who doesn't bring anything to the table themselves, that breeds resentment. Unless they're a sparkly vampire.

And then there's the kind of guy who thinks that being nice and protective of girls is basically the key to getting in their pants. And then when you see it coming well in advance and flat out turn down any help they offer, they get PUSHY. It's super creepy.

Not to mention the whole situation would be completely unworkable - if someone is going to have KIDS with this person, they don't need an additional dependent on top of everything. If both partners are adults, then both partners have to take responsibility for themselves.

Basically that whole fantasy is something to steer WIDELY clear of. It looks to be a recipe for unhappiness and lack of personal fulfillment for both partners. Also abusive and exploitative.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:30 AM

AGENTROUKA


I utterly agree with that. It's a fantasy, not a life plan. And the majority of women are pretty well aware of that. They work responsible jobs, raise kids, pay taxes and would reject a controlling partner. But they also lean back with a vapid romance novel every one in a while for escapism.

It's the ones who are not making that fantasy distinction that make themselves extremely vulnerable to disappointed expectations AT BEST and abuse and exploitation further on.

But I maintain that it's not the fantasies that are a problem, but that they are a symptom of individual problems and a more general gender media culture. Vilifying women for having these fantasies, especially since the majority would not attempt to see them acted out, won't remove the causes. It'd be far more helpful to see culture change that allows for more nonconformity in life paths for both men and women.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 6:15 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
But I maintain that it's not the fantasies that are a problem, but that they are a symptom of individual problems and a more general gender media culture.


Mmmaaybee, but doesn't having those kinds of fantasies kinda perpetuate the issue?

I mean if society feeds a fantasy and props it up as some kind of ideal to strive for, then people might very well chose the fantasy and despite the reality of it.

It's like body image, people put forward these fantasy women with giant boobs and stick legs, and women who inevitably develop image problems from exposure to that will try everything to obtain that impossible ideal. Even if it means unhealthy stuff like bulimia or plastic surgery.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 6:27 AM

AGENTROUKA


But that's a case for changing media culture, rather than vilifying women for indulging in the fantasies they have been fed all their lives. I am fully in support of that.

What I mean is: you won't gt anywhere looking at a woman who admits to enjoying romance novels with your lip raised in disdain and telling her she is perpetuating oppression. Likely, she is not. Likely, she is an independent woman who is simply indulging a kink or fetish that was put into her head at an early age, with as much bearing on her normal life choices as any other sexual kink. Either way, she'll just be annoyed and stop listening. It won't change her conditioning.

What does help is keeping an eye on general media culture and general societal messages that young girls receive today. Criticize the hell out of it. Give girls alternatives so they can identify with power rather than identifying with being wanted by the powerful.

That way, the smaller number who put too much stock into that kink fantasy and treat it as more than that will hopefully diminish to nothing in the future.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:13 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
What I mean is: you won't gt anywhere looking at a woman who admits to enjoying romance novels with your lip raised in disdain and telling her she is perpetuating oppression.


I don't know about disdain... More like an unsettled grimace?

I mean relationships are already kind of a touchy subject with me anyway since the whole idea of them is kinda disturbing to me, apart from fumbling efforts to write about relationships in a failed attempt to understand them.

But then you start talking about power discrepancies in a relationship and I get even more squeamish, because you've gone from something which I consider merely strange if not outright troubling to something more overtly like rape and non-consent.

Some people are into both of those fetishes too, sure, and whatever floats their boat, I'm not going to try to intervene so long as they don't try to act on them. But yes, I'm afraid I do have problems with those fetishes, and I don't consider them harmless little indulgences. This stuff affects the whole society on a major scale.

When the kink is males dominating females (Or even the Reverse! Let's not have double standards here), you might have a lighter softer happy nice protective version, and you might have the dark rapey version, but both are actually equally abusive in their own way.

I'm prepared to argue that both sides of that coin are as bad for men as they are for women. Treating the protector as expendable, male and female damsels in distress, victims unable to fight back, the psychological scars that come with the dark aggressor side of this. It's about subjugating the will and violating the sovereignty and independence of a person. Not a good message at all for anyone.

Quote:
Likely, she is not. Likely, she is an independent woman who is simply indulging a kink or fetish that was put into her head at an early age, with as much bearing on her normal life choices as any other sexual kink.


Well, sure, except whatever she's using to indulge that kink, she paid for it and created a market for it.

Then newcomers adopt the ideas from that media just because the media exists, maybe even write the next generation. They become indoctrinated into the kink as you say, and perpetuate the problem.

I mean Jack's probably the way he is because he watched some sort of master-slave thing when he was young and it became a formative experience. Well that and his parent's divorce.

Just saying. People can have fantasies, and of course it's a much bigger problem when people take it too far, but some fantasies do affect people and are problematic in of themselves.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:20 PM

BYTEMITE


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Mongolia

Kind of. Their lives weren't that great though.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:29 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hi Byte, I feel like you don't listen to me. My main draw to Temujin is the whole devotion thing, devotion to family, his first wife, and Jamuqa. But I'm not going to deny that the idea of being with someone who can kill anyone who will come near me if needed is a little bit appealing to me. Obviously I wouldn't want anyone to kill anyone on my account but the idea of "feeling safe" in that way appeals a little bit.

The truth is Byte that I'm not ever going to be the hero myself, due to my life circumstances that is not going to happen for me. Sure I can be a hero on a small basis, I fancy myself to be helping lots of people everyday in practical ways, but I'm not going to save the village, conquor anything or invent the cure to a disease. So aligning with the hero is appealing to me to a degree. And other than that ... oh never mind you obviously don't understand anything I'm saying here so why waste my time?

And besides if Genghis and I married it would be me doing the conquoring once the door is closed, :))

I of course would never hook up with a Genghis Khan figure in real life, come on.

My romantic fantasies range the gambit from marrying Genghis Khan, to equally ranked Celtic warriors or pirates, to hooking up with Simon from Firefly to Memsahib and her bearer (ethnicity nonspecific, it would be better if he were Irish honestly, :) but any ethnicity will do here).. Note that all these imaginary scenarios contain two willing and able to concent parties and are dashed with some moderation so they're not too all encompassing, see my opinion on the sex addiction thread about moderation and how real control is bad.

I'm also upset with you Byte that you would insinuate that anything I imagine would contain something that didn't have mutual concent. You know me and you know that I'm ferocious about making sure that any and all relationships of a romantic nature are between two people who can mutually concent/their abilities to concent are equally matched. I'm very upset that you would lump me in with anything that would suggest otherwise. I thought you were my friend, and a close friend at that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:41 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:
My main draw to Temujin is the whole devotion thing, devotion to family, his first wife, and Jamuqa.


Which is what I said to begin with. This whole attracted to the power he could have over you thing is news to me.

It's like Bill Clinton with an intern. An employer or military commander with a subordinate. A much older man with a much younger woman.

It's a power imbalance. And the problem with power imbalances in a relationship is it raises questions about whether the person under the thrall of the other can really say no. A question of submission and dominance.

You can't help how you feel, I understand that. But surely you see the parallels.

As a friend, I do feel compelled to give you a heads up if I think you're nearing territory that could be dangerous to your well-being.

It's a good thing that Genghis Khan isn't a living person right now and you merely have a crush on a historical figure. I'd hate to be having this conversation about a real live actual boyfriend of yours. That would be a far more dangerous and emotionally damaging situation for you.

Also: Everyone is the hero of their own story.

Quote:
And besides if Genghis and I married it would be me doing the conquoring once the door is closed, :))


That is a relief at least. But I'm still troubled.

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 7:34 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Having crushes on historical figures or men who don't really exist is kind of what I do. Real guys aren't interested in me and so there's no real danger of any scenario like Genghis playing out in real life.

And I agree that if a guy, or a woman for that matter, is over 18 years older than their partner its a little ooky and I don't support the match. I wouldn't make it illegal or anything (assuming everyone is grown up and able to concent of course) but I do frown on it.

Because you're a good friend of mine I know that you'll be honest with me about any relationships I get into in real life. But since I've never gotten further than three half baked dates with a person I suspect there's no need to worry. I appreciate that you want me to be safe though and make good choices. I'm sorry I got upset with you, I just thought you were lumping me unfairly into the nonconcent crowd and I am so opposed to a match where concent isn't mutual, or even where I think it isn't mutual. And you know that about me, we've spoken about several couples I know of through work for whom I'm worried in that regard. So it really hurt me to think you were glossing over all those conversations we've had about mutual concent.

Proffers olive branch ... ?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 5, 2013 8:32 PM

BYTEMITE


Yes. I am not always clear, and I think I bungled that badly. I had an inkling of warning as I was saying it, thin ice and all, but I felt I still had to say it. I've been burned myself recently by certain attempts to control me. I won't let that happen to anyone else I know.

You're not for non-con stuff. I know that. But I worry what might happen based on this conversation. You think you can be happy in the power of someone, but then they will ALWAYS change on you. Demand you what you can't give them, and destroy you to get at what they want. That's what power does to people - goes to your head, makes you think you're entitled, makes you think you're better and you know better. What then?

The whole thing goes south in a hurry. That's the danger of that kind of power, inevitably taking the person subject to it for granted. Then pain, resentment, violence, force. You have to guard yourself.

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Wednesday, March 6, 2013 6:40 AM

BYTEMITE


It is appealing, and some cultures were better to women than others. The ones you mention have a good track record all considered - and I think there's a group in modern China of mongol descent who have an entirely matriarchal society.

But good as the history sounds, they also all have their problems, past and present. Death by childbirth for one.

The world sucks, and yet it's also sadly better than it's ever been.

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Wednesday, March 6, 2013 6:46 PM

BYTEMITE


Agreed.

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