How much do you collude with violence towards women by Magonsdaughter

I hear ya, Mal4 - one thing which I hated about the ban on electroshock weapons in Michigan, was that it reeked of the 90's push to ban everygoddamnthing a woman could defend herself with, I noted a pattern of it, some girl defeats a potential aggressor with a weapon, within a MONTH, there's a push to ban it, that was always one of my berserk buttons given how I am about self defense in general.

But on the topic as a whole, that's something that pisses me off, why is this considered soley a womens issue, what the hell, where are the GUYS willing to stand up when a girl is passed out and say "No, this is wrong!", putting it ALL on the girls is just plain bullshit, and I do *NOT* give the boys a free pass on this crap whatsofrigginever.

I mentioned before looking after peoples kids at the conventions back when I went, as the little rugrats all had orders to find me when their folks drank themselves insensible so they didn't get hit with a fine against their room charge for unattended childen, but I dunno if I ever explicitly mentioned the other side of batting cleanup, which is lugging girls who'd drank themselves out of commission back to their room and locking them the hell in to prevent such problems, complete with chucking the room keycard under the damn door so ONLY they were ever gonna be able to open the door and so *I* didn't get accused of nothin - sure, some folk might go "what-if" with health risks, but IMHO the safety risks were too damn high to allow any other course of action, and while never accused of anything, not all of them were appeciative of said conduct, but too effin bad.

In a larger sense, that's part of my issue with Muslim men and them stupid burkas too, way I see it, if YOU can't control yourself cause you got no damn self-discipline and are a weak little punk unable to control your own impulses you got no damn right to go blaming the women for that shit and forcing them to bundle up, oh hell no, that's ALL on you buddy, and Allah is watching.
I don't hold back busting their chops about it, up to and including an Imam I've all but convinced how wrong it is, complete with an "example" he ain't never gonna forget!

As for violence against women or kids, or even male domestic partners, I figure one can figure out all on their own what my reaction to it is gonna be - but one incident from my late teens kind of haunts me...
I knew he was violent to her, but never till then where I had to see it, and he was working up to not just beat her, but kill her, and lack of empathy aside, I wasn't gonna let him do it.
I won't give details, but there was a considerable amount of bloodshed and in the end she hated and feared me in respect to that, maybe there was a better way, I dunno... but she's ALIVE to be pissed about it, so that's something - yes, adding more violence to a violent situation is a pisspoor solution, but it weren't like there were a lot of options at that moment in time.

Anyways, I don't hold with it, not whatever - the only resident of this complex I've ever set the local law upon and had hauled out of here in a cruiser, it was for layin hands on his girlfriend in front of me.

-Frem

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Tuesday, July 30, 2013 12:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Just a few days ago, on the game I've been playing for the past few months but I haven't come out as female, a guy on my team who brags about being a hot hot DJ started talking about the awesome T&A of middle school girls.

I ripped him one. F---ing sick.

Ugh. Had a similar thing happen with a guy. I asked him about his new teaching job, he starts going on about barely teenaged girls and their developing bodies. Literally, the first thoughts about his new teaching job. There was a lot of back-paddling once I made my feelings known, but that was pretty much the end of our relations. Unsurprisingly, he turned out to be quite the psycho.

Men as 50% of the world population, as sons, brother, fathers of women, are a key element of the solution, and women need to involve men in these issues much more. I learn of so many cases of assault and child molestation from friends and family and 90% of the time it's in all-female group conversations. Do most men even hear about the real-life stories, do they get a real picture of how endemic sexual violence is, how closely it touches the people they love? Do men talk about this among each other, ever?

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Tuesday, July 30, 2013 2:52 PM

For the most part I'd say no, and one facet of it that bothers me so is that while the problem needs to be addressed, the occasional delve into witch-hunt territory has terrified a lot of decent fathers into all but shunning their own daughters for fear of accusations - this is a tremendous disservice cause it is the first opportunity for them to experience affection and approval from a male/authority figure that is nonsexual and allows them to seperate the two later in life, you see ?

That is of course presuming a father is present, something else my fellow Y chromo brethren should be held accountable and answerable for, but anyways...

Too many girls these days seem to wind up with the notions of affection and approval all jumbled up with sexual interest in a confusing ball and send mixed messages which make them easy prey for the exploitive - which ain't completely thier fault, but we as a society need to do more to address this, and it'd help if those who didn't have ill intentions weren't so terrified of accusations they didn't dare, so there's that side of it as well.

Of course, that ties in with so many who have been victimized who wind up with serious difficulties seeing males as anything but predatory, and they ain't without point, but that causes problems of its own as well, which is why it is ultimately better to fix messes BEFORE we wind up with all these collateral consequences as a result, but sadly that is not an option here.

Even sadder that our current primary venue of getting men to stand up as hard on this as they ought to is friggin Anonymous - this is downright winceworthy to me, like can't we do BETTER than this ?!

Opening up venue for guys to discuss it without being flamed is certainly something imma look into, cause another issue is that often as not someone who takes a stand like mine starts catching all amount of hell for it, not from the other guys, but from girls with issues about it - I grok that some of em want revenge rather than equality, and while not a popular opinion I am kind of okay with that, revenge can be a powerful motivator for positive change in the right hands, but for a FACT *I* personally didn't do shit to em, so catching flames just for being a guy is annoying - which is why when guys step up to discuss it and get buried under flames for shit they didn't do, and sulk off all angry about it, it sets things back instead of moving them forward.

I comprehend that women are angry about it, they got a right to be, hell *I* am angry about it cause to me it's an issue of conduct rather than gender, but comes a point in a tetchy situation like that where someone has to be mature/tolerant/decent enough to bite their tongue and negotiate, and if ya can't find no one, then that someone oughta be you.
I tell that one to both "sides" as quick as any cause again, I don't see it as a gender issue, although some do, sure - but some shit you just shouldn't do to anyone, you know ?

Not quite sure if that came off like I intended, but just some random thoughts dragnetted from the bottom of consciousness about it.

-Frem

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:28 AM

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:43 AM

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:57 AM

Yes, but going on the idea that not all men are perpetrators, and comparing to what makes me aware of the levels of abuse going around, I'm more interested in how (mentally healthy) men come into contact with this subject.

Example: Met with some girlfriends recently, one of them mentioned an abuse case in her circle of friends that she took to the police. Commence sharing of awful stories we all encountered in our lives.

I have seen it happen with guys around, but much less. Does it happen with men when women are not around? Do they talk about abuse in their environment?

If not, clearly this needs to change?
If yes... yay?

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 5:20 AM

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 7:03 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

To answer the original question, Magons, I guess I've been pretty lucky, both personally and in where I live. I've never encountered anything happening to anyone else or males doing the kind of talking I'm reading about here. I've never KNOWN a guy IRL who behaved that way around me, but you can be sure I would be quite vocal (at least) if I experienced it.

I believe I've never personally been the victim of that sort of thing partly, again, because of where I live and where I was when around the opposite sex (never went to bars, since living in communal houses provided plenty of social opportunities), partly because of my own size and I think partly because of my own bearing--I've read a lot about concepts on how you conduct yourself (self-assured v. not, etc.) affects how men behave toward you. The ONLY single experience I ever had was a date who tried something as we were walking back to our car. I put my six-inch spiked heel through his shoe, emphatically. Other than that, I've never had any problems.

Had a lovely social and sex life until I settled down with Jim; regretted a couple of the experiences after the fact, but was willing at the time, so nobody to blame but myself. Had no trouble whatsoever saying "no" when I wanted to say "no". But that it were true for everyone. Maybe it never will be, but I feel if all those of us who are thoughtful do as our consciences dictate, we can keep moving forward. At least I hope so.

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:43 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:
Do men talk about this among each other, ever?

I think I might also have to be the one to bring up male on male violence and provocation as well.

Because men goad each other into certain behaviours, you know, "be a man!" as in "harrass that woman!" Or mocking each other for NOT being men. And the whole thing gets kind of this weird catty predatory homoerotic vibe going on about it.

And I suspect that kinda misandry is connected to male on male rape as much as misogyny is connected to male on female rape. That kinda hate and disrespect is all about the power struggle and dominance play.

I found that 'harassing' thing childish even when I was in grade school. I recall a real hyper kid, a class clown sort, tried to get me to say something derogatory to this girl about her t-shirt. ( Basically it was to draw attention to her chest ). " Do it! It'll be funny as hell ! ", is more or less how he tried to sell it to me. I told him, if it was so funny, YOU do it.

He chose not to.

I guess some guys never grow up.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:11 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Frem - self defense question: I figure if a guy is close enough to rape me he's going to be missing his eyeballs. And he better not be thinking of putting something delicate next to my teeth. (obviously depending on the circumstances)

Any thoughts?

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Thursday, August 1, 2013 7:28 PM

A lot of them actually, but Marc MacYoung does a really, really great job of breaking it down, here.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/rape.html

Of particular interest, just to start with, is Pyramid of Personal Safety and Five Stages of Violent Crime, cause those two are amazingly effective knowledge in preventing a situation from ever getting that far, of course, our society often "teaches" the opposite cause it's all about making victims easier prey yadda, yadda...

Of pertinent interest to ME, is THIS problem.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/ineffective_violence.htm

Quote:
Over the years we have interviewed hundreds of women who have been raped. In cases of date and acquaintance rape we found a surprising fact. In approximately 80% of the events the woman initiated the physical violence!

Specifically as the male was either touching her inappropriately or grabbing him she threw the first punch or slap. Consequentially she was physically overwhelmed by the male.

When we mention this fact many advocates immediately go on the warpath and come up with all kinds of statements about how how we're blaming the victim and how a woman has the right to defend herself or that the violence was actually instigated by the man. The problem is they are so busy trying to blame the male that they miss our point. We don't object to the fact that the woman threw the first strike ...

What we object to is that she didn't break his jaw!

Our attitude isn't just that "No Means No." It means a trip to the hospital if you're too stupid or drunk to know what 'No' means.

Like that stupid 911 dispatcher offering "tell him to go away"....
http://seattle.cbslocal.com/2013/05/23/911-dispatcher-tells-woman-abou
t-to-be-sexually-assaulted-there-are-no-cops-to-help-her-due-to-budget-cuts/

A lot of supposed "advice", especially by the same folks who consider an armed robber shot dead in the attempt to be a "victim of gun violence", *WILL* get you hurt or killed, and so the baseline rule should be established right here, to start with.
*IF* the situation has gone far enough south to use violence, then USE VIOLENCE, don't just swat em and hope, beat the everliving fuck out of them, any situation gone rodeo ENOUGH to where such a thing is necessary, then it's necessary, do not hesitate, hold back, and hamper yourself, DO WHAT YOU MUST - simple enough, eh ?
Not so simple in a "situation", nor in a society which has so vilified self-defense you risk being successfully sued by an attacker, so overcoming pre-conditioning is critical, and an actual self-defense class can help with that, not so much technique, as overcoming the conditioned barriers to defending yourself society has "for your own good" seen to inflict on you.

Essentially it's the same as "warning shots", any situation where one is justified, it's also justified to blow a hole in them, so why waste one ?
I get that folks would rather not hurt somebody, even coming out of it unscratched physically often carries an awful legal and psychological impact, so everyone has to make their own choice about that kinda thing - so most important is to make that choice, and have sure knowledge of where you stand, how far you will go, before that situation ever reaches you, if ever.

And following MacYoungs advice, taking it to heart, generally turns "if ever", into "never", and that is a far, far better option.

-Frem

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Thursday, August 1, 2013 7:59 PM

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Thursday, August 1, 2013 8:25 PM

K, bear with me here, I am banging these out in between rounds at the moment so they're less edited for thought process clarity and politeness, just throwing it straight.

Right, one other thing I wanted to add is what I call the dichotomy of violence.
See, in the rare situation where violence is warranted or necessary, the key is to use it immediately and without hesitation in overwhelming amounts, thus ending the situation as quickly as possible - and why this is a dichotomy is that counterintuitively, if this is done less violence overall is used, AND (this is important) less lasting harm/damage to anyone results, and yes that does include pyschologically... it's far less PTSD inducing to knock someone cold with an end table as it is to pry one of their eyes out, yes ?

Which is where my whole notion of the storm-rush comes in, as a general rule the male has reach, upper body strength, and grip, so the key is not letting him use any of that, explode on him, and leave him in WTF?! mode long enough to get OUT OF HIS REACH, and then head for the hills, because as a general rule, women have speed and endurance, you almost certainly WILL outrun him, which is all you really need to - away is good, away toward a well lighted destination with cameras and witnesses better.
You let an angry guy grab you, or land a swing, it'll get ugly, so don't DO that, yes ?

That even works from a compromised position, a little trick I call the wheelbarrow, simply grab the bastard at the back of the knees and pull, while slamming the top of your head into his groin, bonus points for getting your feet under you first and putting you legs into it - he WILL go down, and you use the momentum to get up and get GONE.
Unless the bastard is a ninja, in the time it takes him to get up, you'll be at LEAST 4-5 good steps away and accellerating, thus raising the difficulty into the not-worth-it zone.
Don't depend on it though, what I call Newtons Law-of-Stupid applies, which is once a situation goes bad, someone being stupid will continue to be stupid, so don't slow down and look back, right ?

Oh, and last point, if you are going to try a front kick, don't bother aiming for the yarbles - most guys know that's coming and will turn, take the hit on the thigh and step into their primary strike range at the same time, which is bad bad news for you, throw a heel strike to the knee, and then haul ass, even if it doesn't do much, it'll slow em down, and that's all it might need to.

Note I didn't including howling at the top of your lungs in there (which I do, for kids, but different situation/social values), which is cause most folk will pay no mind to it, save it for running with, and for the love of mercy don't STOP till you're in a defensive position with witnesses, convenience stores are a damn good option - if the clerk is recalcitrant, stuff one hand in your purse and threaten to rob them, they WILL hit the panic button, and you can explain it when the boys in blue get there, provided they don't shoot you.

As for tools, as I mighta mentioned imma big fan of the cattleprod/stungun - the C2 taser is a piece of difficult to use crap useless against multiple assailants, and only has one shot, but a zapgun can lock em up and drop em faster than a bullet, with less traumatic aftermath legal and otherwise, just don't stick around to write reviews about its effectiveness and all.

All I got at the moment, but that should be enough barring specific requests.

-Frem

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 1:04 PM

I think that many of you have missed the point of this thread. Most people will agree that using violence in an intimate relationship is wrong - I'm not talking about SM stuff - but violence used to intimidate and control. Most people would say that rape is wrong. These are broad statements that most people can agree upon. But what about these issues:

A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame

Some women provoke their partners to behave violently

Women need to take responsibility for their behaviour in public and for doing things or wearing things that may incite men to rape

Prostitutes who are raped deserve less sympathy than other women

Making rape threats online/twitter is one of the down sides to free speech and should be tolerated

It is okay to use terms like rape/whore/slut online and in gaming situations because that's just how people speak now

Discuss....

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 1:23 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Obviously I disagree with all of those. The only caveat I would make is that when it comes to "A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame", I would say "A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the RESPONSIBILITY--for making an effort to save herself (and her children, if there be any)." I'm not saying it's doable, and I understand only too well the nuances and psychology that make it virtually impossible in some cases, but I believe, especially if there are children involved, that there is responsibility.

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 1:30 PM

Thanks Niki.

I'm particularly interested in what the men on these boards say. These conversations shouldn't just be the responsibility of people like you and me (ie women), but men too. If they aren't having these conversations with each other then nothing will change.

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 1:32 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

NO - A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame

NO - Some women provoke their partners to behave violently

NO - Women need to take responsibility for their behaviour in public and for doing things or wearing things that may incite men to rape

NO - Prostitutes who are raped deserve less sympathy than other women

NO (with caveats) - Making rape threats online/twitter is one of the down sides to free speech and should be tolerated

NO - It is okay to use terms like rape/whore/slut online and in gaming situations because that's just how people speak now

I'm pretty hardline about this. People initiate personal violence for the simple reason they judge they can get something for it and also get away with it. It's a cost-benefit estimation. The man who beats his wife wouldn't THINK of doing that to his boss. The man who rapes a woman wouldn't THINK of getting physical in any way with a big bruiser. As such, it's a voluntary choice and the only person to blame is the person taking that action.

The twitter/ free speech thing is a conundrum. To the extent it's a credible threat - the r/l identity of the potential victim is known - then it needs to be prosecuted as much as the law will allow. Hate speech is also prosecutable, as is inciting violence (as the Rwandan radio hate-mongers found out - "The United Nations tribunal in Arusha has convicted three former media executives of being key figures in the media campaign to incite ethnic Hutus to kill Tutsis in Rwanda in 1994" BBC). However, unpalatable speech isn't against the law. That doesn't mean that people can't react using market-force tactics, as Rush 'Limberger' found out.

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 2:05 PM

These are men's issues

http://www.ted.com/talks/jackson_katz_violence_against_women_it_s_a_me
n_s_issue.html

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 2:30 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Extremely cogent and powerful. But the MEN who need to hear it aren’t going to listen. Why not? B/c it doesn’t benefit them to change their ways, and it doesn't harm them to stay the same. And b/c it depends on 'bystander' men voluntarily stepping up and speaking up in large enough numbers to change the culture. I don't think it's going to happen.

I think we need to change the basic cost-benefit equation.

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:54 PM

Quote:
A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame

As a rule no, with the caveat that if she has the means to fully extract herself from the situation, including financially (which is a big bugbear there) and does not do so, there would have to be some pretty compelling reasons for me to let that one slide so easy - although I do consider mental/religious conditioning or psychological damage to be a mitigating factor.

But overall, no.

Vicky was pushed into a too-early marriage by her church, to a viciously abusive guy with serious untreated mental issues, actual physical/chemical ones (he also had epilepsy and berserkerang) which they refused to condone real treatment of in favor of prayer instead - that didn't turn out well and eventually resulted in them more or less excommunicating her when she divorced him, and the financial issue was bitter as well, so I've seen that kind of ugly up close.

That said, and would that I had been there to witness it, her crowning moment came much much later when said guy came to visit and balled his fist to her, whereupon she flat told him if that blow landed, he was leaving in a body bag (and meant every word) - he stormed out, not to be seen since.

Quote:
Some women provoke their partners to behave violently

Maybe some women TRY, but that's NO reason and NO excuse to give in to it, ever, none.

Yeah, I did have a girl I was breaking up with try to provoke me to hit her, on purpose, and she even went as far as to sock me in the jaw first, on the assumption the known bias within the legal system would lay all the blame on me as there were no witnesses - I swept her up, spun her around and dumped her on the couch when she drew back for another shot, and did it AGAIN when she tried to kick me, while flat telling her under NO circumstances was I going to actually hit her.
For four YEARS she held a grudge about that, but it weren't my problem.
Mind you that presumes unequal combatants - but still, if she's mad at you and starts swinging, and you go at it, you're just as guilty, SOMEONE has to be an adult in there and if it ain't anyone else it oughta be you.
But teeth-grinding admittance, there is that game of getting the guy to take a swing and following with domestic abuse allegations, even though from my perspective the words and actions used to provoke are also in themselves a form of abuse.

Which is also another place I take issue, domestic abuse/violence isn't just physical, words can be weapons, and psychological or emotional abuse can leave deeper scars, but our social and legal system ain't never caught up to that or taken it much into consideration.

In short, same few might TRY, but you ain't gotta let em, ain't no excuse for that.

Quote:
Women need to take responsibility for their behaviour in public and for doing things or wearing things that may incite men to rape

Nope, I consider that one complete horse shit, as noted by my attitude towards Muslims and Burkas, if YOU can't behave your damn self, lack the self-discipline and control to behave like a rational human being, that's ALL ON YOU, blaming the women for your own failures is cowardice of the worst order and intolerable, perfidous even.

Caveat, getting passed out drunk without a buddy to lug your ass somewhere safe is a stupid idea for ANYONE, but again, IMHO much of this is a conduct issue rather than a gender issue - I'd no more tolerate giving some dumbass drunk guy an involuntary tattoo, yes ?

Quote:
Prostitutes who are raped deserve less sympathy than other women

No, that's just fucking ridiculous, it's like saying a cab driver that gets carjacked deserves less sympathy, it's asinine.

Quote:
Making rape threats online/twitter is one of the down sides to free speech and should be tolerated

I think that falls under purview of the service more than anything else, as most services have a terms of service or code of conduct, and selectively not enforcing it is something that ought to be rammed down their craw by the folks on the sharp end of that behavior.
When you are using someone elses service to discuss things, under a tacit or explicit agreement with them, they DO have some right to drop the hammer on you if you misbehave sufficiently to cause a problem.
If it's YOUR server, YOUR service, you can say what the hell you want.

Quote:
It is okay to use terms like rape/whore/slut online and in gaming situations because that's just how people speak now

Nope - I don't take that any better than I do the N-word, and kudos to Wargaming.net (the folks who run World of Tanks) for strongly suggesting that folks stop before they have to bring the boot down, which they will, and I don't blame them a bit.

Slight bit of maybe hypocrisy here, although the way in which *I* say it implies it was consentual... "Wow, what we just did to them was... vaguely pornographic..." - not quite the same thing, although some might debate, sure.

But yeah, I've actually dumped a Guild or two over that language and mentality, no excuse for it.

================

In the end though, I look at this whole ball of wax as a conduct issue, rather than a gender issue, and anyone who's dealt with abuse, and helping sort out its aftermath, in the GBLT community might understand a little closer to my position there.

Oh, and one heartwarming note, from the strangest venue - a while back I got dragged into Jury Duty, and one of the cases was a breakup domestic spat which turned physical between two gay men, and the Judge asked if anyone in the Jury Pool would have a problem or bias with being selected for that case....
Not one hand went up, not ONE.
That kinda made my day, it did.

-Frem

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 5:06 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I think that many of you have missed the point of this thread. Most people will agree that using violence in an intimate relationship is wrong - I'm not talking about SM stuff - but violence used to intimidate and control. Most people would say that rape is wrong. These are broad statements that most people can agree upon. But what about these issues:

A woman who stays in a situation of domestic violence should take some of the blame

Some women provoke their partners to behave violently

Women need to take responsibility for their behaviour in public and for doing things or wearing things that may incite men to rape

Prostitutes who are raped deserve less sympathy than other women

Making rape threats online/twitter is one of the down sides to free speech and should be tolerated

It is okay to use terms like rape/whore/slut online and in gaming situations because that's just how people speak now

Discuss....

Just to crank everyone here up, I'm gonna cross over from another thread and note that in a Libertarian society, based on the principles of individual sovereignty and the Non-Aggression Principle, the response to all of these would be a resounding NO. And I'd bet that there would be lots of folks who would be willing to help folks in such situations get out of them.

Let the flames begin.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 5:16 PM

MAL4PREZ

Yeah sorry Magons. I know you're trying to open up the conversation here, but all of those examples are resounding NO's.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 5:24 PM

MAL4PREZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Just to crank everyone here up, I'm gonna cross over from another thread and note that in a Libertarian society, based on the principles of individual sovereignty and the Non-Aggression Principle,

The Non-Aggression principle is not a governmental system. It is a fantasy about a sudden change in human nature.

Sure, it'd be damned easy to have a non-centralized govt when every single person absolutely refused to be aggressive. And in what real actual reality does this happen?

Yeah, sure, it'd be lovely. No doubt. I'm not saying it wouldn't. But it is simply and absolutely not real. Designing a govt around this fantasy is incredibly naive, and invites disaster.

*---------------------------------------*
The French Revolution would have never happened if Marie Antoinette had just given every peasant an iPhone.

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 5:27 PM

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 5:36 PM

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 6:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
I've actually had pretty good luck with a howl - but then it's less "help me help" which seems to actually egg some of the more sadistic types on and more nonverbal "GONNA MURDER YOU" rage howl.

Well, you might remember one reason I paid for Chorus classes for little miss 5ft of crazy was wondering if that gawdawful soulcrushing screech of hers could be weaponized - so far, so good...

But there's this scene in Despicable Me2 where Agnes belts one off at a mutated minion and it shatters its goggles, buying enough time to make a run for it, both of us found that downright hysterical, for obvious reasons.

-F

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 7:00 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

My womens prefer da violence. Preferably wiles tied upp. evilol

In Firefly the Alliance merged the US flag with the flag of Communist China

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Saturday, August 3, 2013 8:46 PM

Again PN makes the point that he is a complete fuckwit, whose IQ must be pushing 70.

So far, all those who I expected would bother to respond and find this thread worthwhile (or an opportunity for a trolling) have done so.

If I was Rione, I might go as far as talk about 'my little experiment'

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 12:16 AM

Well, again, I stand for human rights, all humans, all rights - those petty little divisions beneath that don't mean a whole lot to me in that respect.

Having said that, I will re-iterate that whole fear of the flamethrowers aspect above for why most men aren't really so willing to discuss this in detail, and even less willing to be the first to step up and discuss it, but it ain't like I ever feared stepping right into the inferno on a topic I have interest in, and I offer proof in regards to *THAT* tendency not being at all a gender thing, given it's shared with one of our XX posters here in this threat, innit Byte ?

It does piss me off that so many are unwilling to discuss or address it, amongst themselves or elsewhere, but I still hold out some hope, cause I'll stand, even if I do so alone.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsLongAsThereIsOneMan
(speakin of sexism, I'd cut that Trope to "As Long As There Is One", cause why presume such ludicrous courage as a male value alone ?)

For mine own I blame patriarchal religious/social/political flavor for this, which pisses me off even MORE, cause it's wholly nonsensical to me from a pure human rights perspective.

-Frem

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 2:44 AM

America loves a winner!

Relevant tweet of the day:

" Morning for Muslims! Hmmmmm ... Do you strap on bombs and kill people or just be content with some female genital mutilation today?"

https://twitter.com/Talkmaster

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 5:35 AM

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 7:21 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Pretty much everything you said, Magons. As far as how things would be in a "libertarian society", I would say "And in what real actual reality COULD this happen?" I don't believe there is one...even in Roddenberry's "utopian" Federation.

And as far as Rap...sigh...Again Rap makes the point that he is completely Muslim-obsessed, and if he has an IQ over 70, is incapable of engaging it in relevant discussion.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 7:58 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

And as far as Rap...sigh...Again Rap makes the point that he is completely Muslim-obsessed, and if he has an IQ over 70, is incapable of engaging it in relevant discussion.

So, just to be clear, you're saying that the Muslim practice of female genital mutilation is NOT violence against women?

Wow. I think I'm gonna have to disagree w/ ya there.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 8:05 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

.No, obviously I'm saying your interjecting that into a thread to which it has no relevance whatsoever speaks volumes about you, and nothing else. And I'm not taking the bait any further.

Would be nice if you'd let us get back to the discussion, but naturally I'm not holding my breath.

ETA: I wonder if Frem could expand on why he thinks "so many are unwilling to discuss or address it, amongst themselves or elsewhere". That would be edifying, for me at least. I can think of a number of answers, but I'd be interested in a male perspective.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 9:55 AM

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:01 AM

America loves a winner!

Oh no, I get it. Some violence should be discussed and awareness should be brought to the front.

Other violence, simply should be ignored.

Now I understand.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:08 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Oh no, I get it. Some violence should be discussed and awareness should be brought to the front.

Other violence, simply should be ignored.

Now I understand.

Yes, you do. Your only post about violence against women in western countries was - oh, you didn't post any. You ignored the topic. Of this thread.

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is

whore

Quote:
As evidence of "rape mentality"...
Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The term applies.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:13 AM

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:18 AM

America loves a winner!

Y'all are right. I was way off topic. Apologies.

Who gives a flying flip about women not in the West, right ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:29 AM

You're such a troll.

How dare anyone want to focus on any issue women in the West might be having. How dare they, really.

Besides, FGM is not an exclusively muslim practice. Jeez.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:49 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

.Notice that Rap has effectively ended the discussion that we were in, and threadjacked this into people responding to him behaving like a spoiled child. Is that what you folks really want? THAT'S WHAT HE'S HERE FOR, remember?

This WAS an actual, honest-to-gawd discussion for just a bit there, you wanna keep paying attention to the little brat in the corner throwing a temper tantrum?

Frem made the last non-Rap contribution; perhaps if he felt like positing an answer to my question, or any other intelligent adult would like to, or any other intelligent adult would like to contribute or ask questions of their own, it might become a discussion again. Or not; you can go right on being goaded into making it all about Rap, that's what he wants, after all.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 10:54 AM

America loves a winner!

Geezer started the thread jacking here.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

We're mostly objecting to, and trying to ignore for your sake, the suggestion you may or may not intentionally be making that violence against women here in the US doesn't deserve attention or discussion because it's worse somewhere else.

It matters everywhere. And sometimes when you focus on only one aspect of it, as in your posts above, you make it look like you don't care about the other aspects and it raises unfortunate implications. It's probably NOT true, and you do care, but unfortunately you are representing yourself poorly.

But if you really want to go there... Circumcision. Also barbaric.

Damn, you rock.......

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Y'all are right. I was way off topic. Apologies.

Who gives a flying flip about women not in the West, right ?

How about everyone except me, because I now no longer care about any of this, thanks to your attitude.

I offer evidence in support of my claim.

http://blu.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=55421

Quote:
Niki will vilify Christianity for the exact same thing for which she gives Islam a complete pass.

Shocker!

( No, not really )

Niki:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=51801

Everyone ELSE:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=51801

And not one post by me. And oh look, this still isn't a post by me, because I would have to be EXCEEDINGLY DRUNK TO EVEN WANT TO TRY.

As such I am in such a permanent state of "I really don't give a flying charlie fox damn" That it retroactively removed me entirely from the thread. Oh look. All my previous comments about violence against women are gone.

BECAUSE YOU ALL ALREADY KNOW WHAT I THINK AND CARE ABOUT AND HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED AND SO WHY SHOULD I POST ANYTHING? WHY SHOULD I CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BECAUSE THAT MEANS OBVIOUSLY I MUST NOT CARE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE?

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 11:29 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Besides, FGM is not an exclusively muslim practice. Jeez.

Oh.Right. It's only the most widely dispersed perpetrator of it, and speaking out against it is pointless unless we include each and every instance ?

Got it.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

Resident USA Freedom Fundie

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
.Notice that Rap has effectively ended the discussion that we were in, and threadjacked this into people responding to him behaving like a spoiled child. Is that what you folks really want? THAT'S WHAT HE'S HERE FOR, remember?

This WAS an actual, honest-to-gawd discussion for just a bit there, you wanna keep paying attention to the little brat in the corner throwing a temper tantrum?

Frem made the last non-Rap contribution; perhaps if he felt like positing an answer to my question, or any other intelligent adult would like to, or any other intelligent adult would like to contribute or ask questions of their own, it might become a discussion again. Or not; you can go right on being goaded into making it all about Rap, that's what he wants, after all.

You're right, Niki. I see how responding to him isn't helping this thread.

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Sunday, August 4, 2013 1:14 PM