So, Geezer, rappy, in your ideal world, what should happen? by 1kiki

America loves a winner!

I read this post primarily because it was presented in your own words, with no 'links', and no spin as to what others were saying. I found that interesting.

I will sidebar and dispense w/ the usual sorts of comments which often accompany our replies on here.

And while I'll take the accounts posted at face value, and not question the validity, I must note, you did seem to obtain a fair amount of info about this person, her life, while you were out shopping. Was this a casual acquaintance ? First time meeting of happenstance ? Just wondering.

My first reply, though not to sound flippant - " Yeah, a real tale of woe "

And by that I mean, life ain't always fair. In the purest libertarian sense, I really don't know what to say. Stephen Hawking would like to do a lot of stuff too. And I could go on and on, but I'll stick to the matter of this woman.

Ideal world ? She'd have a clean, safe and happy place to live out her life. Based on what's posted, and due to the fact that I'm not by any means in a field which deals w/ individuals such as her, in terms of mental or physical care. And besides the basics, who can really say what she " needs " ? Is it our place to say ? Are we hoping to look after her interests, or ours ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 6:47 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"First time meeting of happenstance." We chatted for about an hour and a half on the sidewalk. She wasn't capable of finding her way to the nearest bar, and she wanted me to take her and be her wing-woman. I didn't privately think she should either go there, or drink (especially not knowing if she was prone to seizures or on any medication), or be left alone there, though I didn't express that. So we chatted on the sidewalk.

Also, she's had some type of brain injury. There are things about her that don't add up to the normal casual social encounter.

So, in your ideal world, how does she get a safe place where she can live out her life?

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:04 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
She'd have a clean, safe and happy place to live out her life.

Clean and safe sounds basic. Happy sounds expensive.

I suppose in a purely libertarian world, society would meet her basic needs, but no further. Her care would not be stimulating, it would be minimal. If she were lucky there would be a private charity looking after her rather than a government program with a threadbare libertarian budget - but most likely she would not be so lucky.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:26 PM

America loves a winner!

KPO - in the purest form, her care would be up to her family and or local community, church, what ever. What takes place later in her life should be greatly determined by what took place before. All of us are the sum of our choices. Not all the results are happy ones. Even if we make the " right " choices, things can turn out pretty damn bad.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:46 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I'm reasonably sure you recognize that we all inescapably have times in our lives when we're dependent on people around us and receive more than we can produce - when we're young, when we're sick or injured, and when we're old. And that sometimes through no fault of anyone's there are people who are disabled. And that sometimes through no fault of anyone's there are people who lose their entire family before them.

That this happens is inescapable in the context of human life.

So, what is your answer for the woman? In your ideal world, when circumstances stack up and you're disabled and alone, what should happen?

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:52 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
KPO - in the purest form, her care would be up to her family and or local community, church, what ever.

True. And lots of people (particularly in poor areas) would fall through the cracks, and none of that help would reach them, and they would be left to languish, and die.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:57 PM

America loves a winner!

Not this ?

Quote:

An 89 year-old retired British art teacher, who was able to be admitted to the Dignitas assisted suicide clinic in Switzerland with the help of the Society for Old Age Rational Suicide (SOARS), has committed suicide.

The woman, Anne, from Sussex, who was neither terminally ill nor seriously handicapped, said in an interview with the Sunday Times just days before her death that she wanted to kill herself because she had had enough of “swimming against the current” of the world. The former art teacher and Royal Navy engineer said she had become exasperated with the modern world of emails, televisions, computers, and supermarket-ready meals.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/04/08/89-Year-Old-British-Woma
n-Helped-Into-Swiss-Clinic-By-SOARS-Commits-Suicide

I honestly don't know, 1kiki. It seems like you want to force me to give a fully inclusive answer, but to be honest, I have neither the experience in this area, the entire story of this woman's life, nor much inclination or incentive to say much more than I already have.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:58 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
KPO - in the purest form, her care would be up to her family and or local community, church, what ever.

True. And lots of people (particularly in poor areas) would fall through the cracks, and none of that help would reach them, and they would be left to languish, and die.

It's not personal. It's just war.

That pretty much happens already.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:03 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I honestly don't know, 1kiki. It seems like you want to force me to give a fully inclusive answer, but to be honest, I have neither the experience in this area, the entire story of this woman's life, nor much inclination or incentive to say much more than I already have."

Well, I was wondering if you had any place for her in your ideal world. What happens to her? Is she left to the whims of circumstance and time? Or is there notice taken that dependency is inevitable for all people some of the time, and for some people all of the time?

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:05 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
KPO - in the purest form, her care would be up to her family and or local community, church, what ever.

True. And lots of people (particularly in poor areas) would fall through the cracks, and none of that help would reach them, and they would be left to languish, and die.

It's not personal. It's just war.

That pretty much happens already.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

But not enough. We need to be MORE libertarian!

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:27 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:

But not enough. We need to be MORE libertarian!

See, I view those 2 comments to be contradictory.

A more libertarian society would be where everyone is taught to do for themselves, so as to be in a better position to help others, when certain situations arise.

It may sound counter intuitive to you, as though I think everyone needs to be more selfish, and greedy, but that's not it at all. People need to be more self aware, of the choices they make and the things they do. The fewer able bodied folks we have to take care of , those with more legitimate needs WON'T fall through the cracks.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:35 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"A more libertarian society would be where everyone is taught to do for themselves ..."

Well, my first instinct is to poke that with a stick by rephrasing is as - WE NEED TO TEACH EVERYONE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!

Anyway, a society where everyone is taught to do for themselves would preclude hiring people for less than the full value of their work in order to make a profit - would it not? Making money off of other people's work strikes me as the ultimate parasitism.

In any case, just to let you know - care for even one permanently disabled person - child or adult - is beyond the resources of a single family. But you seem to think that social recognition of that is somehow fostering parasitism, in a way that profit from others' work is not. Anyway, I see the topic has lost its appeal. I was hoping to get your thoughtful appraisal of that kind of situation. Maybe next time.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Saturday, April 12, 2014 8:44 PM

In my ultra-perfect world she would be cared for in a communal home with people like her with whom she could relate. Like a modern village. We've lost the sense of caring for each other that used to exist. My Dad is 91 and living on his own due to that mentality. We wanted him to be near us, but he doesn't like snow. The pioneer spirit is great, but it does have its limits.
On the other hand, online meet-up groups!
Get that lady a laptop!

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 9:05 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Interesting question.

I had to deal with something similar, since my mother had Alzheimer's for the last ten years of her life. She lived in Atlanta when it appeared, and we were in D.C. and both working full time.

Early on we were able to get by with having two ladies look out for her in her home - there 18 hours a day and preparing meals, taking her out to visit and to church, and helping her bathe, etc. so she could retain a semblance of her normal life. This ran us around $2,000 a month (in the early 90s), which was just about the amount of the pension she got from my father's work. After a couple of years, she started to get up at night and roam he neighborhood and was getting too confused for the ladies to deal with, so we knew that we had to get her into a more controlled situation.

We visited several assisted living facilities in Virginia, and chose the one that asked "What does she like to do?" rather than the ones that asked "Will she take directions?". This facility was running about $2,500 a month and eventually went up to $3,500 over time. Since my dad was a Civil Service employee in the time before they had to pay into Social Security or Medicaid, we got no assisted living benefits from them, so any costs over Mom's pension were out of pocket for us.

Fortunately, our workplace was close to Mom's home, so we could go over on our lunch hour and visit a good bit. For a while she knew who we were, but then started thinking I was my father, and eventually just didn't know us at all anymore.

The folks at the assisted living facility who took care of the residents' day-to-day needs were generally very good and patient, but there was a lot of turnover, since many couldn't stand the emotional toll of seeing folks they knew sort of disappear before their eyes. The ones that could stay and still maintain a caring attitude were really amazing.

Eventually Mom's body just shut down and, since she had a living will and a 'do not resuscitate' order, she died quietly in her bed.

So that's what happened in my real world, and I'd think it was about as ideal as could be expected, given the Alzheimer's.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 9:20 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"A more libertarian society would be where everyone is taught to do for themselves ..."

Well, my first instinct is to poke that with a stick by rephrasing is as - WE NEED TO TEACH EVERYONE TO THINK FOR THEMSELVES!

You're pickin' nits now. Same coin, different sides. Before one can DO, they must THINK. One is no more exclusive than the other.

Quote:

Anyway, a society where everyone is taught to do for themselves would preclude hiring people for less than the full value of their work in order to make a profit - would it not? Making money off of other people's work strikes me as the ultimate parasitism.

Nah, it wouldn't. Work is a portion of an individuals life. Hence, time is money. And when it comes to WORK, those w/ more experience and education, generally speaking get more money ( Entertainers fall out of this model ) Not real sure what your point is in bringing up hiring anyone one for less than " full value " , how ever that's being determined. Seems unrelated to the issue.

Quote:

In any case, just to let you know - care for even one permanently disabled person - child or adult - is beyond the resources of a single family. But you seem to think that social recognition of that is somehow fostering parasitism, in a way that profit from others' work is not. Anyway, I see the topic has lost its appeal. I was hoping to get your thoughtful appraisal of that kind of situation. Maybe next time.

No idea where you get the idea of my views fostering parasitism. YOU brought that up, not I.

You got my answers.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:33 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

I was hoping to get your thoughtful appraisal of that kind of situation. Maybe next time.

And this coming from the crazy bitch who has stalked every AURaptor post for months to assert that she doesn't give a shit is priceless. What a fucking psycho.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 11:36 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Geezer- Your mom had ideal care. She's lucky to have had a family who looked after her, and who were insightful and caring enough to find a living facility that was close by and attentive, and well-off enough to pay the eventual price tag. If there is a ideal arrangement for such a devastating condition, that would be it. You should be proud that you did so well. Chance and nature... they spit in the face of our plans.

But what about that lady that KIKI spoke to? It seems to me she lives a cramped life, subject to the whims of her (very elderly) mother... and that, after that, no support at all?

We tolerate caring for our young (although not so much anymore!) with the hope that they'll become productive members of society; that even if they don't take care of their parents directly they will fly and be free. But the demented and brain damaged and disabled... they represent a huge burden, both physical and emotional, with no hope of future productivity. Even if you worked a lifetime and raised a family and contributed to your church, does that pay for a decade of personal care? And some young people, of course, will never meaningfully contribute to society. What to do? It's a worry that I face as the parent of a brain-damaged child who will never, ever, be independent. And, if we're honest with ourselves, as we get older it's a situation we all may eventually face ourselves.

And, come of think of it... more and more children are being dx with autism. The risk is now something like 1 in 68. WE have all of those vets with PTSD and brain damage. And people who are living (their hearts are still beating) longer and longer.

I think this is a problem we will have to face socially as well as individually, because it's a problem that is getting bigger and bigger.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
So that's what happened in my real world, and I'd think it was about as ideal as could be expected, given the Alzheimer's.

You have my sympathy man. That's a rough way to have to say goodbye.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:54 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

I was hoping to get your thoughtful appraisal of that kind of situation. Maybe next time.

And this coming from the crazy bitch who has stalked every AURaptor post for months to assert that she doesn't give a shit is priceless. What a fucking psycho.

I'm more than happy to discuss topics with anyone who's capable of intelligent and honest discussion. That excludes a lot of you. And, you must think I spend time tracking down rappy's posts. No, I just reply to whatever's up top and particular threads I'm interested in. I hope that clears up any confusion you may have given yourself.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 12:55 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Rappy

WHOA there fella'! Chill.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:03 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Rappy

WHOA there fella'! Chill.

Chill ?

I think you have confused Jong's response for mine.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 2:37 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But what about that lady that KIKI spoke to? It seems to me she lives a cramped life, subject to the whims of her (very elderly) mother... and that, after that, no support at all?

I don't know. Lots of maybes. Is she her mother's sole heir? What will her financial situation be after her mother is gone? Does she actually have the capability to take care of herself if she were out from under her mother's thumb? Does she have siblings who might take up guardianship? After her mother is gone, could she hire a companion to take care of the stuff she can't handle? She seems willing to try and make connections with other people. Could folks like KIKI become part of a circle of friends?

Pretty much every situation like this is going to have unique aspects. Makes it hard to propose an ideal solution, except in the most general terms.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 3:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

That was the question I was going to ask. So, I have to take her situation at face value.

She doesn't seem to be getting support services like vocational, physical, rehabilitation, or occupational therapy. I presume it's deemed either too expensive to pay for, or not useful enough, or both. When she talked about her past she never mentioned siblings. Her ex is out of the picture. The one and only person she talked about who's currently in her life is her mother.

Personally, I don't think she can live on her own. The next day I talked with one of the workers at the store where I met her. (btw I complemented her on her outfit and her cap in particular, which is how we met.) This worker said she has a hard time dialing the cab that takes her around when she needs to get somewhere, and that's despite the fact that, according to the worker, she's known the cabbie well enough and long enough to have a mutual interaction where they kid each other. FWIW that's what I've seen with other people with brain damage. When a particular area of the brain is damaged, practice does NOT make perfect. Some things are just gone and won't come back. So, she has significant disabilities in handling life's essentials.

I personally have too many responsibilities to my own family, which includes elderly siblings and disabled youngsters, to take on any more. And I see my situation reflected around me - many people are working as hard as they can just to keep afloat. I don't expect there are too many angels who will be able to make the significant and long-term sacrifices it would take to ensure this woman's future.

So, if you wysiwyg her situation with the information I've added - What room does your ideal society make for her?

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 3:56 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, if you wysiwyg her situation with the information I've added - What room does your ideal society make for her?

In my ideal society - assuming she had not previously made arrangements to pay for her care when she was no longer able to care for her self (Insurance, voluntary mutual assurance groups, etc.), and had no family or friends willing to take on the role of guardian - a voluntary charitable group would provide whatever assistance she needed.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:08 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

http://feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america/hunger-facts/hunger-and-po
verty-statistics.aspx

In 2012, 46.5 million people (15.0 percent) were in poverty

In 2012, 59.4 percent of food-insecure households participated in at least one of the three major Federal food assistance programs –Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (formerly Food Stamp Program), The National School Lunch Program, and the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children. [ix] Given the average household size if 2.55 http://www.marketingcharts.com/wp/traditional/american-households-are-
getting-smaller-and-headed-by-older-adults-24981/ the Federal government is supplying 70 million people with continuing food assistance.

Feeding America provides emergency food assistance to an estimated 37 million low-income people annually.

Now, this isn't an apples to apples comparison.

The statistics for Federal programs refers to HOUSEHOLDS. And while the website doesn't say whether they're a sole, major, or supplemental source of food, looking elsewhere, SNAP for example, provides about $168 per person per month for a family of 3. http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2226

Meanwhile, charitable organizations refer to PEOPLE. I find their statement hard to evaluate. It makes sense, knowing the mechanics of how they operate, that they're talking about PORTIONS or MEALS - ie, they provide 37 million individual MEALS per year. And while Federal programs are geared toward food insecurity, charities are geared toward low-income people.

I bring this up because there's nothing stopping people from donating to food banks and kitchens. And certainly the need is there. But of people who really NEED food, 70 million get ongoing government assistance every day, while private charities provide 35 million meals, or about 96,000 per day. In other words, people can't really depend on charity to survive.

So, do you think charity will provided for all people in need in your ideal society, or will many be allowed to slip into complete destitution a la Dickens?

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:38 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, do you think charity will provided for all people in need in your ideal society, or will many be allowed to slip into complete destitution a la Dickens?

So, as I sort of expected, after asking what our opinion of what our ideal society would do, you ignore what Auraptor and I consider an ideal society, and impose your own opinions on us. How usual.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:49 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

No.

But you seem to think that people will behave the way you want them to. Ideal society = ideal people. If you assume that people will somehow behave differently than they do now, or than they have in the past like Dickensian England, how do you propose they get to that new standard?

Meanwhile, I was evaluating how people like that woman I met would fare without public assistance ie solely on voluntary charity, as per your ideals. To do that I looked at figures: how many people are helped by voluntary charity, what is the total need, and, for comparison, what is the public effort. Voluntary charity is nowhere near meeting the need, or matching public assistance.

Do you have a problem with looking at the adequacy of voluntary charity in keeping people from starvation?

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 11:20 PM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
No.

But you seem to think that people will behave the way you want them to.

Yep. You asked for my ideal society, so people would behave as I wanted them to.

Quote:
Ideal society = ideal people. If you assume that people will somehow behave differently than they do now, or than they have in the past like Dickensian England, how do you propose they get to that new standard?

A lot of it is in pretty standard libertarian philosophy. Folks who espouse libertarianism would be aware that it is their responsibility to provide for their future and the future of those for whom they are responsible. Seems to me that such folks would also be wiling to provide for folks of the same mind who, through no fault of their own, might have problems.

Quote:
Meanwhile, I was evaluating how people like that woman I met would fare without public assistance ie solely on voluntary charity, as per your ideals. To do that I looked at figures: how many people are helped by voluntary charity, what is the total need, and, for comparison, what is the public effort. Voluntary charity is nowhere near meeting the need, or matching public assistance.

Of course, you're looking at statistics based on a society where lots of folks consider it the government's, or society's, responsibility to take care of them. How well does that seem to be working?

Quote:
Do you have a problem with looking at the adequacy of voluntary charity in keeping people from starvation?

Nope. In my ideal world, the vast majority of folks would understand that it was their responsibility to plan to have something in place to take care of themselves when they couldn't, and that voluntary associations would be in place for the folks whose plans didn't work out.

And KIKI...

In YOUR ideal society, how would people such as your friend be cared for?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Sunday, April 13, 2014 11:44 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

So, you base your society on a notion that everyone thinks just like you. That doesn't sound like freedom. Meanwhile, the societies with the greatest government input and the highest taxes have the longest lifespans, highest standards of living, most educated populations, and highest happiness indexes
http://unsdsn.org/resources/publications/world-happiness-report-2013/
The report identifies the countries with the highest levels of happiness:
Denmark
Norway
Switzerland
Netherlands
Sweden
... I think that compares well to meager charity left-overs any day.

In my ideal society everyone would be paid the full value if what they actually produce. There would be no 85 people controlling 50% of global wealth, while billions toil in poverty. People would be able to have personal financial security based on a reasonable amount of work. But people would also recognize that some burdens are too great for an individual, or a family. And the things that the woman needs - therapy, a job she can do, a society where she's included - would be available to her.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 12:28 AM

America loves a winner!

I assume folks will follow common sense and some basic laws. How outrageous of me.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, April 14, 2014 2:04 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

And that means ... ? I have no idea what you're trying to say.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 6:03 AM

America loves a winner!

Greatest govt input = greater govt control, which means less individual freedom.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, April 14, 2014 9:30 AM

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, you base your society on a notion that everyone thinks just like you.

No. I base my ideal society on the notion that most people in it will share certain principles (pretty much the definition of a society). The folks in the countries you list obviously share certain principles, or their countries wouldn't run the way they do. Do you consider that everyone in Sweden, for example, thinks just alike, or thinks just like you do?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Monday, April 14, 2014 11:22 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Greatest govt input = greater govt control, which means less individual freedom.

Is it possible to have an intelligent conversation about this???? Or will this be just another fruitless attempt??

Let's take the notion of driving a car. There are all kinds of rules. Yanno, street lights, traffic lights, stop signs, road striping! The roads... funny, but they need to be built and maintained.

So let's imagine the situation WITHOUT government input and control:

No streets in front of MY house, because, yanno, I don't drive and I don't want it. So if you want to get to the person past me, you'll have to go the long way around, through the warren of alleys and whatever it is that people decided should be in front of their house. And you better come during the day- there won't be any lighting.

And your neck had better be on a swivel! Everyone will be driving every kind of vehicle every which way: donkey carts, bicycles, pedestrians, big delivery trucks- none of them stopping at intersections, which are clogged because everyone is trying to force their way through. But you're in a hurry. If ONLY you could get to that toll-road, which will cost you a crap-ton of money!

---------------------

When people live together, rappy, there ARE limits on individual behavior. And when people get together and do things collectively ... even if it's the "government" which is creating this collective ... a lot more things can be accomplished, making life easier for EVERYONE.

The point is, with collective effort and some rules, people can experience MORE freedom and a BETTER life than if they were to just have to muddle along individually. You failed to take that into account.

So if you could be SPECIFIC as to what you didn't want "the government" doing, and also come up with a reasonable alternative to replace critical functions (something that has a prayer of working) you'd have a lot more credibility. But when you make highly global statements (ALL government is bad) you lose a lot of people. If you want to convince people... I'm not sure you do, you seem to not have learned what it takes to even have a relevant conversation, after all of these years on a discussion board... you'll do something more than just throw in slogans.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 2:24 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

" In my ideal world, the vast majority of folks would understand that it was their responsibility to plan to have something in place to take care of themselves when they couldn't, and that voluntary associations would be in place for the folks whose plans didn't work out."

"So, you base your society on a notion that (most) think just like you."

"No. I base my ideal society on the notion that most people in it will share certain principles (pretty much the definition of a society)."

So, I threw these up together to see how they fared. Took out the everybody from my summary and substituted most, as that's more accurate - and it comes out the same as far as I can see. I'm not sure where the dispute is. To understand the same things is to think the same things is to share the same principles (thoughts).

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 2:52 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I think the thing that Geezer fails to recognize is that people may simply not WANT the future he proposes. It's very possible that they understand the basis of his ideal society (I'm not sure I do... he's never been able to explain how it's supposed to work or even what it's supposed to achieve or what it's supposed to "look like" when it's done) but who the fuck wants a society of everyone against everyone, with all significant interactions reduced to property ownership and sales? It sounds like a fucking propertarian dystopian nightmare to me.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 2:55 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And I see rappy hasn't responded to my post, and I bet he never answers the question. Or he'll come up with his infamous rappy-dodge, which he's had to resort to a half-dozen times recently- "I never said that".

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Monday, April 14, 2014 7:49 PM

America loves a winner!

Siggy - let's be honest here, for a change.

1kiki said GREATEST govt control. To me, that implies govt all up in one's life, 24/7.

I do not hold to that , one bit.

Do you ?

However, LIMITED govt control does NOT mean ZERO govt.

How can you, and damn near everyone on the Left keep from making the same false premise that cutting back govt doesn't mean ELIMINATING it ? It's the perpetual false narrative the Left makes, that it's either " Julia's world ", or complete anarchy, and no where can there be anything in between ?

Our Founders had the right idea. LIMITED govt does not mean NO govt.

Are we at least clear on THIS issue ?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, April 14, 2014 8:10 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"1kiki said GREATEST govt control. To me, that implies govt all up in one's life, 24/7."

No, WE have that, thanks to the NSA. That thing you so famously defended by saying if you have nothing to hide it shouldn't bother you.

Oh, here are some relevant quotes about your love of privacy and freedom from government:

"I think the Patriot Act was a needless expanse of US Gov't. True. But so far, it's not denied anyone their rights."

"Why is it when ever this President tries to do something which helps protect this country from a very real threat of ISLAMIC terrorism, a specific group of whiners tries to portray it as a fate worse than getting your head cut off ? Whether it's disrupting the financial transactions of terrorist groups, intercepting their phone calls or trying to get relevant information out of those who have sworn to murder as many innocent men/women and children as possible, some still see it as a violation of OUR rights that this Gov't should take steps to protect its citizens"

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 8:18 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

"1kiki said GREATEST govt control. To me, that implies govt all up in one's life, 24/7."

No, WE have that, thanks to the NSA.

That's part of the equation, yes, but I also see that as an offshoot into a different topic all together. One area is how much should we rely on govt to be a part of our every day lives, while another would be the intrusive nature of govt.

It's one thing for govt to feed, house, educate, and " provide " for us, and quite another for it to be tapping our phones, e-mail and tracking us where ever we go.

The NSA seems to be one area where pretty much all sides can at least have SOME agreement.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, April 14, 2014 8:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The NSA seems to be one area where pretty much all sides can at least have SOME agreement.

They are so obsessed with the whole good guy vs. Bad guy GAME that they can't see the reality that they have crossed the line themselves into a threat to National Security by taking focus off REAL (potential) problems in favour of perpetuating and GROWING their organization.
That's like MI6 having OO7, OO17, OO3056....

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Monday, April 14, 2014 8:31 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's one thing for govt to feed, house, educate, and " provide " for us, and quite another for it to be tapping our phones, e-mail and tracking us where ever we go.
The NSA seems to be one area where pretty much all sides can at least have SOME agreement.

"I think the Patriot Act was a needless expanse of US Gov't. True. But so far, it's not denied anyone their rights."

"Why is it when ever this President tries to do something which helps protect this country from a very real threat of ISLAMIC terrorism, a specific group of whiners tries to portray it as a fate worse than getting your head cut off ? Whether it's disrupting the financial transactions of terrorist groups, intercepting their phone calls or trying to get relevant information out of those who have sworn to murder as many innocent men/women and children as possible, some still see it as a violation of OUR rights that this Gov't should take steps to protect its citizens"

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 8:40 PM

"Why is it when ever this President tries to do something which helps protect this country from a very real threat of ISLAMIC terrorism, a specific group of whiners tries to portray it as a fate worse than getting your head cut off ?"
Whomever said this originally was correct. I spend 2 to 3 days a week fighting off ISLAMIC terrorists in my OWN Condo complex. It's such a chore.
If I wasn't a trained Ninja, I know I'd be dead by now...

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Monday, April 14, 2014 9:45 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
"Why is it when ever this President tries to do something which helps protect this country from a very real threat of ISLAMIC terrorism, a specific group of whiners tries to portray it as a fate worse than getting your head cut off ?"
Whomever said this originally was correct. I spend 2 to 3 days a week fighting off ISLAMIC terrorists in my OWN Condo complex. It's such a chore.
If I wasn't a trained Ninja, I know I'd be dead by now...

All the wire tapping and dropping of eaves didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombing, did it ?

Or the Time Square bomber from nearly completing his task of taking out 100's , if not 1000's of New Yorkers.

I guess I could be like the Lefties here, and say " NO COPS, ANYWHERE ! " as some sort of sane, rational response to over reaches of the NSA ?

Despite what some make it out to be, it's not an All-Or-Nothing proposition.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, April 14, 2014 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I guess I could be like the Lefties here, and say " NO COPS, ANYWHERE ! " as some sort of sane, rational response to over reaches of the NSA ?

No, Red Pill Addict, just GOOD ones not micro-managed by bureaucratic know-nothings. Fill & expand the agencies with yes-men morons and you get 9-11 & the Boston Bombing. NOTHING replaces GOOD people effectively.
Did you even SEE Skyfall? The message in that film regarding the intelligence communities is absolutely spot on.
Print outs, spread sheets, computer assessments & predictions of likelihood are worthless, as we have seen. Human decision and intent is best interpolated by well trained & seasoned PROFESSIONALS, not computers & sociology majors or Presidents. Guidelines must be in place, but the chain of command is what beats us to our defeat in many cases.
Hire the BEST & trust them.

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Monday, April 14, 2014 10:42 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Did you even SEE Skyfall? The message in that film regarding the intelligence communities is absolutely spot on.

" Oh dear lord, he's confusing HOLLYWOOD with real life !! "

See, this is the sort of response I'd get if I were to make such a comment.

No, not seen Skyfall yet, but I'd be there are a plethora of movies I could bring up and point to as having similar messages, which we'd likely both agree. Or not.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Monday, April 14, 2014 10:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, not seen Skyfall yet

It's just an okay Bond film IMHO, but the message is pretty stellar.
Trust the best; second guess/micro manage them to your peril.

(The movie made a billion dollars because of that statement indicating a major distrust of said nonsense in all walks of life both corporate & civil service)

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Monday, April 14, 2014 11:43 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I guess I could be like the Lefties here, and say " NO COPS, ANYWHERE ! " as some sort of sane, rational response to over reaches of the NSA ?"

Please find a quote for that.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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Tuesday, April 15, 2014 12:24 AM