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Up to 38 reported choked to death in the burned buildings of Odessa.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
It's a disgusting mess.
Reminds me of my youth. Nicaragua. Iran Contra.

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IMF : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml

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Up to 38 reported choked to death in the burned buildings of Odessa.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml

Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml

Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428]


Posted by Miker in response:

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Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
^^^ Great smackdown on Sniggy, but she's like that inflatable Bluto toy you had as a kid ... knock it over with a punch to the face, and it just comes bouncing right back up as determined as ever. She will always be right, and you will always be wrong if you disagree with anything she spews.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
MIKER- Umm... so, no facts to back up your post? No refutation showing me where I'm wrong?

Yanno, I don't expect any facts from rappy, and I rarely expect any from Jonggstraw. You OTOH seemed like you might be open to looking at on-the-ground events... like the fact the the USA spend $5 billion on creating a pro-western movement in Ukraine (according to Victoria Nuland, State Department) and that the people that John McCain had a photo-ops with included actual neo-Nazis.

Here

Business Insider More: John McCain Ukraine
John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukr
aine-2013-12#!HtFT3


So, apparently you don't have the facts and you don't want them. Especially if they challenge your cherished belief system, and point out that the USA just might be fundamentally wrong about something.

That IS pretty disappointing! I thought you were a rational kind of guy.


I have a lot of strong criticisms about China (Tibet and Xinjiang, for example) and some criticisms of Venezuela. Probably fewer about Russia. But I'm not a citizen of any of those countries, so my criticisms are irrelevant.

Oh, and BTW- what the frak does where I'm from have to do with whether what I'm saying is wrong or right? If you MUST know, I was born and lived my entire life in the USA. What of it?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

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Miker:
I see you erased my last post. You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?

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Originally posted by MIKER:

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"He was overthrown by his people." A small minority with guns. Is that what you support?

"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

Quote:

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Miker:

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I see you erased my last post. You are not arguing with me on behalf of the Ukrainian people. You are arguing against the world and all of Russia's other neighbors who are scared to death it won't stop here. Remember Georgia?

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How did the Ukraine get an acting president? Well, it turns out that the previous democratically elected president - in elections praised by international observers for fairness, access and transparency - was ousted in a coup.

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As for Russia 'annexing' Crimea - perhaps you didn't know that the Kiev government had passed a law making speaking Russian illegal.

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That paramilitary groups were dragging Russians out of their homes, beating them and setting fire to the buildings ...

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Originally posted by kpo:

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How did the Ukraine get an acting president? Well, it turns out that the previous democratically elected president - in elections praised by international observers for fairness, access and transparency - was ousted in a coup.

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The previous president was grotesquely corrupt, and was overthrown by popular uprising after slaying dozens of protesters with his security services. He was ousted by vote of the Ukrainian parliament - as is their constitutional right. And the Ukrainian parliament overwhelmingly backed the current interim government - as is their constitutional right. The current Kiev government was not elected but elections for a new democratically-elected government have been brought forwards. All in all we've seen the popular overthrow of a corrupt tyrant and the bringing forwards of elections - hardly a step backwards for democracy.

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As for Russia 'annexing' Crimea - perhaps you didn't know that the Kiev government had passed a law making speaking Russian illegal.

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Wrong on two points. The bill was to downgrade the Russian language's official status, not to outlaw its use, and the bill was never passed, it was vetoed by the acting president (your so-called reich wing selectee): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine

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That paramilitary groups were dragging Russians out of their homes, beating them and setting fire to the buildings ...

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In Crimea? I'd like to see the evidence either way.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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The previous president was grotesquely corrupt, and was overthrown by popular uprising after slaying dozens of protesters with his security services.

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The clip below, not for the faint of heart, shows anti-government protesters jumping from the burning Odessa trade unions house: it appears when Yanukovich was "killing" protesters in February, the west couldn't get up in arms fast enough screaming for the former president's overthrow. But now that the acting post-CIA funded coup government is doing the same thing to its own protesters, the radio silence is stunning.

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"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
ALSO, MIKER you have not answered the question

Quote:

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"The ones you apparently support ..." Voted. Overwhelmingly. In large numbers. Freely and democratically. Hmmm ... how many other ways can I say that? Compared to what happened in Kiev, which happened at the point of a gun, what happened in Crimea truly was the will of the people. Why do you have a problem with that?

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

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Quote:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml

Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428]


Posted by Miker in response:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
MIKER... Do YOU understand what you're saying? Ukraine is far away and hasn't exactly been presented objectively in the press. So, here's the recap up to now:

Ukraine is geographically divided between the forested northwest and steppes in the southeast.

Northwest Ukraine had been part of Poland and Lithuania at one time, and southeast Ukraine part of Russia since about 1600. In some SE provinces, 80%+ of the people speak Russian. Overall, about 30% speak Russian. (I've posted about all of this before.) During the early part of revolutionary Russia, somewhere in the realm of 3-5 million Ukrainian small-holding farmers were starved to death in the Holdomor. Curiously, there doesn't seem to be much reference to the event in the current situation.

The USA has spent $5 billion to establish a pro-western group, which took root in NW Ukraine, near Kiev.

Ukraine has experienced many political changes since the breakup of the Soviet Union. Since the Orange Revolution it has been ruled by oligarchs in BOTH the pro-Russian and Ukrainian camps. The gas contracts with Russia, for example, have been battled over for control by the various oligarchs. The most recent disasterous contract with Russia was negotiated, NOT by pro-Russian Yanukovich or other pro-Russians (as you might expect) but by Yulia Tymoshenko (she of the braided hair) who is, technically, an Orange Revolutionary (albeit one who is connected to the very wealthy). Much of Ukraine's debt is owed to Russia under this particular contract, the high prices of which were offest to the customer by a government subsidy ... so, goodonya, Yulia, for impoverishing the Ukrainian government!

In light of this debt, Yanukovich was faced with two competing trade agreements- (1) with Russia, which was willing to buy $15 billion of bonds (basically a loan), cut their gas price, in a non-exclusive arrangement and (2) with the EU, which was willing to loan them money but ONLY if they doubled their internal customer gas price, reduced pensions by half, and ONLY in exclusive arrangement with the EU/IMF.

Not suprisingly, Yanukovich accepted the better deal with Russia. This incensed the pro-western liberals in Kiev.

During the protests, Putin (once again) offered a tripartite deal in which the EU and Russia could both enter into trade agreements with the Ukraine, which was turned down by the EU in favor of an exclusive trade arrangement.

During the protests, a phalanx of molotov-cocktail-throwing neo-Nazis were deployed in the Maidan, with support from the EU and the USA... Victoria Nuland ("Fuck the EU") handing out cookies, John McCain routinely appearing in photo-ops with pro-Nazi Tyahnybok, and the rioters routinely described as "peaceful protesters" in the Western press.

Under pressure, Yanukovich restrained the riot police - who had only their shields and batons in the midst of the riots- offered early elections (elections were set to occur in 2015 anyway, one might ask what the urgent urgency was) and positions in the government to the rioters, who turned down the offer.

After the offer was made, the heat was turned up on the riots. People were killed by snipers - wrongly attributed to Yanukovich and most likely by the neo-Nazi provocateurs- and Kiev was taken by force, even thought early elections were on the table. (One has to wonder if the rioters had doubts about winning an election, and decided to avoid the risk of running for office.)

"Yats" - a banker by trade and Victori Nuland's first choice, was appointed as the new unelected Prime Minister, and a number of neo-Nazis from the Svoboda Party and one from Pracy Sektor were appointed to "internal security" positions in the new unelected government.

One of the first acts of the new unlected government was to remove Russia as an official language. This was quickly rescinded, but made all Russian-speakers stronlgy suspicious of the new appointed government. The people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join with Russia, and many pro-Russian people in the remainder of south and east Ukraine are trying to do the same.

The Kiev government has deployed troops, and the nation is currently in a state of civil war. The EU, the USA, and (now) the IMF have been behind the escalating violence since the beginning.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Last response, I don't. A coup is usually used to describe the overthrow of a government by it's military. Not the case here."

So, is that what you're going to base your argument on? It wasn't a coup b/c a coup is USUALLY done by the military? WIKI would disagree with you about your false distinction. While a coups is USUALLY done by the military, it doesn't have to be. Coups can come from any direction.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
In a democracy the people decide. They decided.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
And all you have are your fantasies to back up your assertions. You have no facts.

Yanukovych and the opposition agreed to early elections. That is a fact. The protests escalated into violence due to the Nazi militias. That is a fact. Yanukovych left Kiev for a meeting in eastern Ukraine. That is a fact. There was some talk of impeaching Yanukovych in the parliament but it fell through and no vote was taken. That is a fact. Parliament named its speaker Oleksandr Turchynov as interim president on 23 February in a vote that was called illegal due to lack of a quorum. That is a fact.


So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

YOU are like a fascist.

All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.

And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
coup
a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.

YOU are like a fascist.

All this time I've been arguing for the democratic process. I've been pointing out that Yanukovych was legally, fairly and freely elected. I've been pointing out that early elections where people could have democratically voted to keep him in or kick him out were already set. I've been pointing out that the parliament did NOT legally use its available powers. I've been pointing out that the people of Crimea overwhelmingly and freely voted to join Russia. And unlike you, I have facts on my side.

And YOUR point? Well, people with guns overthrew the government. So it wasn't a coup because it wasn't the military. And that makes it democratic.

So -

Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists, but not an overwhelmingly majority vote by citizens?

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Originally posted by MIKER:
Everyone else that reads our posts will make up their own minds. I am confident you being an asshole 1kiki has been sufficiently documented.

BYE!

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Apparently elections didn't have the guaranteed outcome the opposition wanted - democratic elections just weren't good enough. So - on with the violent revolt.

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Such is your 'democratic' process.

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Meanwhile the Wash Post said this about the vote to remove Yanukovych "One caveat: It's not clear whether there were enough legislators present to meet a quorum"

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Let's clear that up first. Why do you support a coup against a democratically elected government by small numbers of armed extremists

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e the fact the the USA spend $5 billion on creating a pro-western movement in Ukraine (according to Victoria Nuland, State Department)

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It was the Parliament who also put Olexander Turchynov in place as the interim president.

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