Are we living in a modern day facist Nazi Germany by piratejenny

No, I don't think we are moving down the same path as that of Nazi Germany. I am starting to have some problems with the Patriot act because it's being used for other purposes then just tracking down extremists.

There is some evidence that I've read about where folks ARE being politically targetted and charges are being trumped up against them, under the auspices of the Patriot Act. I was an advocate initially of the Act. Now, the more I read , the more I recognize that there are some definite reforms that need to be made to it. I wrote recently to my congressman about it. I'll see if I can scan the damn letter I recieved back from the prick, and share it with you folks.

Strangely enough a guy renting part of a building from my company turned out to be a spook for the dept of homeland security. He (arabic descent) was the one responsible for getting a few folks nailed on weapons charges at a local Mosque. They were supposedly trying to sell rocket launchers to a person posing as an extremist, who claimed he wanted to buy them to shoot down some planes here in Albany. So far as it stands the evidence is very poor in that regard, though these Mosque leaders have definitely been very vocal about their sympathies abroad for some extremist causes.

Fortunately as a country we have checks and balances in place to prevent a Hitleresque situation from coming to fruition.

Unfortunately we have thousands of uninformed youth and equally uninformed adults, who treat politics like a baseball game and are attached to the party, all the while not paying attention to what the party is doing.

In my opinion we should do away with political parties in general. I also think we should eliminate lobbyists. Special interest groups are making it impossible for our government to get anything really done.

A friend recently told me he felt I was becoming liberalized (He tried to get me to read Ann Coulter's new book roflmao), because of my views changing in general on the term terrorism and the Patriot Act among other things. I prefer to think(and I told him so) that I am an independent thinker who isn't controlled by party loyalties or the media spew.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

The disdain for intellectuals and the demonizing of the arts by the right-wing is very disturbing. The wholesale use of derision in lieu of logical argumentation by the right-wing at the highest levels of policy is fascistic. The prevalent notion that there is no actual truth out there--only spin; that all opinions amount to propaganda is a seminal fascist notion. The way Bush and Cheney & co. will say a thing and then a few months later deny ever having said it constitutes a willful disregard for reality and history. The perceived need for world military domination is something only fascists need. But the single greatest totalitarian trend in America today is that nearly half of the nation seems perfectly willing to go along. A fascist leader isn't gonna get very far unless people sign up to embrace their lies as truth and support their international adventurism in the name of peace and freedom.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

Well..to play Devil's advocate, the Democrats have done the exact same thing and much more publicly. This isn't a tact that is relegated to the Republican ranks alone. I don't recall seeing a whole lot of disdain for intellectuals. Disdain for Celebrities (who claim to be intellectuals, but have a hard time saying the word) definitely..many are dumbasses and the majority are Democrats (Janeane Garafalo, Cybill Shepard and Babs are good examples, the Dems could have done loads better.. LOL) who get national coverage and spew inarticulate garbage and condescension, feeding the "Anchor trolls" as I like to affectionately call them.

Don't get me wrong..you have whackjobs like Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh on the right as well. The problem lies in the fact that the whackjobs are offensive and demeaning to the average Joe (who may or may not be an intellectual) and they make the best news.

A good example of a non-offensive Celebrity intellectual..would be Bono from U2. He is the epitomy of what a celebrity should be like when pushing a cause. He's very articulate. He has SOLID statistics and information to support his causes and he comes across as being a compassionate non-partisan. I find I can get behind someone's cause, if it's not being stuffed down my throat by obvious partisan hackery (to quote Jon Stewart).

As for saying anything..well Kerry & company are the worst, a good example would be the SUV thing..that was mind numbing. That's why there is evidence that many people in the US just flat out don't trust Kerry and feel he'll say anything to get elected. Sadly, it is evident that both sides have their flipfloppers and bald-faced liars.

If Bush gets it into his head that he is going to invade all the Muslim countries and kill their leaders, followed up by installing Christian leaders in their places (What Ann Coulter is calling for), the backlash around the world, let alone in the US would be insurmountable. I don't think we'd see an impeachment process move quicker.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:21 AM

LEXIBLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by DrBoris:
Nope, We arn't, sorry. (Facist that is, since a few people posted while I was busy writing this) I know this would make some upcoming points WAY more justifiable, but this simply isn't the case. Just because you hate the current policy isn't a reason to call names that make no sense.

You are one of the people he was talking about, one of those who put their fingers in their ears and hum really loudly while chanting "WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS" over and over. Only a few people in the US LIKES the current policy! The rest of the world is devided into those who dislike it and those who despise it.

Quote:

I will remind you that the whole senate voted and arrived at a majority approving the begining of our wars, not just the president.

That just makes the crimes that much bigger (even though some say its because the president lied he managed to convince them)

Quote:

If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about the creeping in of socialism, or something actually and currently relevant to the taking of YOUR freedoms. I don't know about you, but I'm still feeling a lot more oppresed by taxes

This is typical of you selfcenterer american whiners! You have a damn low tax over there, yet you always bitch and complain. Here average tax is 60% - that is how it works in a CIVILIZED society. You want to be a selfcentered bastard who don't give a shit about others then move to the damn jungle!

Quote:

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

No they won't. And should they win they probably will start trying to change the laws so the president can run a third time.

Quote:

Before you call us all a bunch of un-awakened dweebs too, a good ammount of people in this nation who know history and concider the true aims of political leaders still belive we're doing the right thing, or at least somewhere close to the right thing or they wouldn't be voteing for Bush. The polls are not tied because people like Facism, I can gaurentee you that.

As Joss says on the DVD commentaries "Everybody thinks he's righteous"

Hitler thought he was right, Saddam though he was right, Bin Laden thinks he is right (and both he and Bush talk to God who tells them what to do!)
And the unwashed Xenophobic masses of the US does not understand that the reason terrorism has gone so wildly up the last couple of years is because they have a president who ignores international law and acts like a mini dictator.

Quote:

By the way, we're clearly such bullies for shutting down the torture rooms in Iraq and stopping the filling of mass graves there. We must be the bad guys because we're trying to shut down any network who funds or harbors terror.

You are stil BLIND TO THE FACTS!!
It doesn't matter what YOU THINK - it's how others think that matters. The majority of the world said "don't start this war" - but Bush said screw you, we are going to war.
99% of the populations of the middle east HATE the US for that! They don't see anything noble abotu it, the see a rich money grubbing country invading a country for oil. If the US had waited it could have been different - now it isn't.
Even many Iraqis hate the US - just because they hated Saddam doesn't mean they don't hate the US.

Especially since the US does not want it to be a really free country, they want it to be a copy of the US.
If you gave the Iraqis the right to choose, they would not want a western democracy, they would want a religious priest driven society. But they can't have that if the US has its way, and so another country is learning to loathe the US.

Especially those who remember it was the US who helped Saddam get to power.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:24 AM

LEXIBLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Jharrod:
If your referring to the Patriot ACT. I have yet to meet a man or hear of a man that was put away for selling weed and the patriot act is what caught him. Its for finding terrorists. None of my rights have been taken away. I can still talk trash about the government, even though I work for them.

That's because you are living with your head up your ass, or only watching reality shows all day while stuffing your face.

If you read something else than the funny pages, you'd have read about case after case where people have been abused and violated. Do some googleing if you really want to be enlighented (which of course you wont, better to put your fingers in your ears and hum really loud)

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:36 AM

LEXIBLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sometimes wonder if we as Americans are living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany, I wonder how the Germans in Germany felt during those horendous times.. did they realize what was happening to their country???

You are right on. Its a pity there aren't more like you over there.

You see the trend, don't make the mistake the others did those many years ago: If Bush wins prepare to flee the country. Seriously.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:20 AM

UNCHARTEDOUTLAW

No, we don't. Volkswagens cost way more than they did back in the day. ;)

Tounge, cheek, we're good to go!

-Taylor (old VW owner, btw)

Uncharted Outlaw!
"The secret is understanding time."
See my Firefly Store: http://www.cafepress.com/NorCalRiviera

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:40 AM

TRAGICSTORY

Dear Lexiblock,

Read up on the Weimar Republic. America is not at all like it.

The problem with Americans against the current administration is they want to tie EVERYTHING to Htiler and Nazism. Why? This drives me nuts.

Simply state that America is blazing a brand new path and starting a forest fire in the meantime.

Here is some good reading:

http://www.lib.usf.edu/ldsu/index2.html?f=13716

(You have to excuse his memory with dates as he was fairly old (90ish) when he gave the interview)

Dr. Werner Von Rosenstiel's autobiographies give great insight into the Wiemar Rupblic and its collapse into Nazism as well as the US Army concentration camps)

-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:16 AM

Ahh... this is the degenerate namecalling that I know and love.

Quote:
This is typical of you selfcenterer american whiners! You have a damn low tax over there, yet you always bitch and complain. Here average tax is 60% - that is how it works in a CIVILIZED society. You want to be a selfcentered bastard who don't give a shit about others then move to the damn jungle!

Please go more in depth about how keeping some of our money makes us savages? I feel there might be an interesting point here. I just can't find it. Clarify if you can.

Quote:
Quote:

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

No they won't. And should they win they probably will start trying to change the laws so the president can run a third time.

Pure conjecture. You have nothing at all to back up this argument. Nobody does. The same thing could have been said for every other world leader with a limit on terms of office, and it would still mean absolutely nothing.

Quote:

As Joss says on the DVD commentaries "Everybody thinks he's righteous"

Hitler thought he was right, Saddam though he was right, Bin Laden thinks he is right (and both he and Bush talk to God who tells them what to do!)
And the unwashed Xenophobic masses of the US does not understand that the reason terrorism has gone so wildly up the last couple of years is because they have a president who ignores international law and acts like a mini dictator.

Yes, everybody believes what they are doing is right. It's kind of a requisite to doing anything. I'm genuinely not sure what you were getting at with this. The point seems to disprove itself because you are never going to find a leader who doesn't think they are righteous on some level. It's not necessarily a bad thing.

Quote:
You are stil BLIND TO THE FACTS!!

Just... wow. What information do you have that indicates that you aren't being controlled by propaganda as well? I, as an uninformed American, recognize the propaganda I get fed here, so I supplement my news with Canadian, British, and Austrailian sources. I still support President Bush. If studying history and finding foreign propaganda machines to counter my domestic ones makes me blind to the facts, so be it. I'm at least trying to find the real facts, it doesn't sound like you are given the timbre of your posts.

Quote:
It doesn't matter what YOU THINK - it's how others think that matters.

This little gem almost got coffee on my monitor. If you really need me to pick it apart, please let me know. I'm not sure I need to really point out the underlying lack of conviction this statement implies.

Quote:
Bush said screw you, we are going to war.
99% of the populations of the middle east HATE the US for that!

Your "99%" of the middle east hated us 30 years ago. The same "99%" of the middle east will probably still hate us 30 years from now.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:16 AM

Ahh... this is the degenerate namecalling that I know and love.

Quote:
This is typical of you selfcenterer american whiners! You have a damn low tax over there, yet you always bitch and complain. Here average tax is 60% - that is how it works in a CIVILIZED society. You want to be a selfcentered bastard who don't give a shit about others then move to the damn jungle!

Please go more in depth about how keeping some of our money makes us savages? I feel there might be an interesting point here. I just can't find it. Clarify if you can.

Quote:
Quote:

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

No they won't. And should they win they probably will start trying to change the laws so the president can run a third time.

Quote:

As Joss says on the DVD commentaries "Everybody thinks he's righteous"

Hitler thought he was right, Saddam though he was right, Bin Laden thinks he is right (and both he and Bush talk to God who tells them what to do!)
And the unwashed Xenophobic masses of the US does not understand that the reason terrorism has gone so wildly up the last couple of years is because they have a president who ignores international law and acts like a mini dictator.

Quote:
You are stil BLIND TO THE FACTS!!

Quote:
It doesn't matter what YOU THINK - it's how others think that matters.

Quote:
Bush said screw you, we are going to war.
99% of the populations of the middle east HATE the US for that!

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:35 AM

SOUNDHACK

Quote:
Originally posted by LostInTheVerse:

Ahh... this is the degenerate namecalling that I know and love.

Quote:
This is typical of you selfcenterer american whiners! You have a damn low tax over there, yet you always bitch and complain. Here average tax is 60% - that is how it works in a CIVILIZED society. You want to be a selfcentered bastard who don't give a shit about others then move to the damn jungle!

Please go more in depth about how keeping some of our money makes us savages? I feel there might be an interesting point here. I just can't find it. Clarify if you can.

I think what the person you are quoting is trying to say is that we have become a selfish society, in that we would rather have lower taxes than better schools, better healthcare, etc for the less well off.

Now whether we want a "socialistic" society is up for debate, but let me address your "keeping some of our money" point. The biggest question I have to people like you is, how much of our money should we keep? This president seems to think there should be no end to tax cuts: Good times or bad, we should have tax cuts. Taken to its (absurd) conclusion, that would mean we have no tax at all. I hope everyone can agree that we can not have a government with no taxes at all.

So the question is when to stop with the taxcuts? I would think that having huge deficits would be an indication that we should at least stop, but I read that Bush is gearing for more cuts in his second term (which as a realist I am resigned to expect). As for the supply siders, who say that tax cuts will lead to increased revenue to the government due to economic stimulus, I say then: after three years of tax cuts, we still have a budget deficit that does not appear to be decreasing. Where is the increased tax revenues?

Now I am not advocating 60% income taxes, and I dont think we should have a completely socialistic social service system. But people who are blindly supporting tax cuts should sit down and think how far is enough?

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:16 AM

DAIKATH

I won't say it will become Nazi germany, but I'm still amazed at what poeple get elected in the US (which means both the Democrats and Republicans).

Both of them answer to lobbysts and big companies and rich individuals who give large donations before they answer to the general public. Now don't tell me this isn't true because it is, both have to get large cash donations and funding to get enough airtime because otherwise they don't stand a chance.

Im also suprised at the attitudes of the US media. Big kudos for Jon Stewarts little outburst on Crossfire. I remember when Bush got some questions from an Irish reporter and he just told her to be quiet like she was a minion. She didn;t interupt him in the middle of a sentence so he could't finish, he just didnt like a dissident. For those who are not willing to take my word for it, I saw it on tv and will not go spend 3 hours to go and look for it.

My last argument also goes into my next, everytime they are on tv or anything else they are never confronted with tricky questions or anything the spindoctors didn't think of.

Maybe we won't have concentration camps for muslims, but I would't give this democracy a clean bill of health when it seems that the two big parties are using all the tricks they have to protect themselfes from democracy (preventing a third party from rising, plus all the other stuff I mentioned).

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:35 AM

HJERMSTED

Quote:
Originally posted by Jharrod:

If your referring to the Patriot ACT. I have yet to meet a man or hear of a man that was put away for selling weed and the patriot act is what caught him.

Actually there was a huge marijuana bust in Washington State a couple months back in which Patriot Act provisions were used to nab the smugglers... I'm guessing because the contraband came in from across the Washington/B.C. border. It made the local news here in Seattle.

Marijuana is one of the top three industries in all of B.C. and has been pretty much decriminalized up there. Terrorists were not involved... just, uhm, Canada's new breed of alternative entrepeneurs.

Back in the States, the Patriot Act is officially on the books and will be used however the powers that be see fit to use it. It's not just about "terrorists" anymore if, indeed, it ever was.

mattro

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:53 AM

Soundhack:

I completely agree with your post. I was trying to raise the point that having lower taxes than another country does not make us "uncivilized". To tell the truth, I don't know where I would set the bar but certainly not higher than 35%. Higher taxes would make me not want to work as hard, as the bonus for working hard really wouldn't be worth the effort.

I'm not sure I see the parallel between tax revenue and better education. Pouring more money into the education system in this country really only seems to line the pockets of the respective boards of education. There really has been no shown benefit of just pouring more money into the school system actually helping anything. This is not to say we should cut funding, but that we have to look at a real change of doctrine before we start spending more. Unfortunately I have not been able to figure out a plausible method so I can't put forth an example.

In response to the debt assertion: A lot of that really has to do with government spending. Unfortunately neither of the 2 main candidates for the presidency seem to have a small government spending agenda. Also, most supply-siders would agree that there is a bottom line to where lower taxes will reduce tax revenue. The problem is nobody knows exactly where it is, and it changes with market phases. Government is too slow to actually keep it optimized. The theory that defines this is called the Laffer Curve:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming :)

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:53 AM

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:58 AM

AUREIAS

nope. Situation isn't anywhere close to Germany...

Germany was suffering from a huge a** war reperations debt forced upon it by the allies from World War I, their morale was at an all time low... and I mean, they were in a big big depression with inflation being insane. Their country was weak, it was getting bullied by all sides.

The rise of Hitler was only a natural response, Germans have a tendency to seek a strong patriarchal government which takes care of its people. And that's what happened...

...America as of yet is still able to bully other people, and despite the fact we're alienating others, we're not in any need of radical changes that could sway american public opinion to another preemptive strike. Iraq... was a freak accident. Its not possible to use 9/11 as a reason again for war.

...but i could be wrong.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:00 AM

HJERMSTED

There is at least ONE major parallel between the modern U.S. and Nazi Germany and that is in our prison populations.

Germany had a prison population similar to the U.S.'s in which a large percentage was made up of people arrested for non-violent (victimless) crimes. In their case: being the wrong religion, ethnicity or having the wrong sexual preference along with modern staples such as using drugs, being a prostitute, etc.

History informs us that the German prison system morphed into labor camps (benefiting corporations) and then, when the camps became too full, morphed again into concentration camps which disposed of the "unwanted" people.

Of all the modern industrialized nations, the U.S. has the largest percentage of its own people behind bars. Many corporate industries now benefit from this captive work force. Hell, even Microsoft uses prison labor to package it's products. At the rate America is arresting people while simultaneously running out of money for new prisons... what will the U.S. "labor camp" prisons morph into, I wonder?

So....

We know that people alleged to be terrorists can be held indefinitely without access to lawyers or a fair trial (see: Guantanamo Bay).

We've also seen marijuana smugglers treated as terrorists (WA State pot bust utilizing Patriot Act provisions).

It may not be the EXACT flavor of Germany's police state 60-70 years ago... but it's close enough for the same after taste: erosion of liberty.

How much scarier do things need to get?

mattro

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:43 AM

Quote:
Well, if you know anything about history at all (which it sounds like you don't -- not trying to be mean, just honest), you know that the situation America is in today, both economically and politically -- is nowhere NEAR the situation Germany was in when Hitler began his rise to power.

did you even read my post..obviously not because if you had you would have read where I said our circumstances are not the same as Germany and I also said that histroy never repeats itself in exactly the same way...

I know alot about histroy.. I'm not trying to argue but have a discussion

(geez)

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

The only folks who are scared of us living in anything remotely resembling to what this thread suggets are :

a) The extreme fringe nut case conspiracy loonies. These folks are always going to be around, sad to say. How quickly we as a country forget the nonsensical Y2K scare of just a few yrs ago. Yes, Y2K would hit and completely shut down the grid from coast to coast,and Bill Clinton would decalare himself Tzar of America as he orders Matial Law, suspends elections, suspends civil liberties, opens up concentration camps ( folks really did report seeing these being set up, if you recall ) ..the list was ENDLESS! Jan 1 rolled around, traffic lights, toasters, ATM's, coffee makers, etc..all worked. No, your credit card records weren't erased, so all those big $ items you thought you'd not have to pay off showed up on next months statement. Damnit.

b) The other group of folks who are quick to toss out the 'NAZI' cry are simply those who have no clue of history. By trying to compare what is going on today w/ what ocured back then, they not only are being reckless w/ the facts, they minimize the true oppression of what DID occur some 70yrs ago.

So, plaese spare us the 'chicken little ' cries that the sky is falling and we're sinking into a Fascist regiem. The last thing we need are more drama queens. Relax, live life and count the days 'till Serenity.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:52 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sometimes wonder if we as Americans are living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany, I wonder how the Germans in Germany felt during those horendous times.. did they realize what was happening to their country???

Sorry, but you missed it by 50 years or so. Look into the McCarthy hearings and the communist witch-hunt of the early '50s to see a better example of home-grown Nazism, complete with commies/pinkos/fellow travelers playing the whipping-boy role that the Jews had in Germany. Fortunately, we got over it.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 10:02 AM

WYDRAZ

I'm not a fan of Bush (or Kerry), and this is a bit off topic, but I had to respond to this thought:

Quote:
Originally posted by soundhack:

... This president seems to think there should be no end to tax cuts: Good times or bad, we should have tax cuts. Taken to its (absurd) conclusion, that would mean we have no tax at all. I hope everyone can agree that we can not have a government with no taxes at all.

In response to World War II, the US government began directly withholding income tax from wages on July 10, 1943. (Do a google search if you don't believe me.) It was supposed to be a temporary measure. What's "absured" is that is still exists.

Income tax can arguable be called illegal in America, but there you are. Before WWII, the governemt used other taxes -- Income tax is a double tax. They tax you when you earn it, and they tax you when you spend it.

Does that seem right to you?

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Not totally pertinent to the question, THE AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE magazine sees such a threat in Bush that they have taken the unprecedented step of endorsing Kerry. Obviously, the see somehting very dangerous in the Bush administration. It's very long, so I'll condense it:

Kerry’s the One

By Scott McConnell

There is little in John Kerry’s persona or platform that appeals to conservatives...
But this election is not about John Kerry... It is, instead, an election about the presidency of George W. Bush. To the surprise of virtually everyone, Bush has turned into an important president, and in many ways the most radical America has had since the 19th century. ... Bush has behaved like a caricature of what a right-wing president is supposed to be.... The launching of an invasion against a country that posed no threat to the U.S., the doling out of war profits and concessions to politically favored corporations, the financing of the war by ballooning the deficit to be passed on to the nation’s children, the ceaseless drive to cut taxes for those outside the middle class and working poor: it is as if Bush sought to resurrect every false 1960s-era left-wing cliché about predatory imperialism and turn it into administration policy.... In Europe and indeed all over the world, he has made the United States despised by people who used to be its friends... Bush has accomplished this by giving the U.S. a novel foreign-policy doctrine under which it arrogates to itself the right to invade any country it wants if it feels threatened. ... The hatred Bush has generated has helped immeasurably those trying to recruit anti-American terrorists—indeed his policies are the gift to terrorism that keeps on giving.

... Bush’s public performances plainly show him to be a man who has never read or thought much about foreign policy.... The record is one of an administration with a very small group of six or eight real decision-makers who were set on war from the beginning... and it is peculiar that one who was fired from the National Security Council in the Reagan administration for suspicion of passing classified material to the Israeli embassy and another who has written position papers for an Israeli Likud Party leader have become key players in the making of American foreign policy.

... The only way Americans will have a presidency in which neoconservatives and the Christian Armageddon set are not holding the reins of power is if Kerry is elected.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:16 PM

Quote:
Nope, We arn't, sorry.

how can you be so sure, nothing stays the same thats the law of nature, I'm sure there were alot of Germans who said the same thing!!

Quote:
If I were you, I'd be far more concerned about the creeping in of socialism, or something actually and currently relevant to the taking of YOUR freedoms. I don't know about you, but I'm still feeling a lot more oppresed by taxes and the fact I will pay in but never see a dime from Social Security than Iraq policy.

Since this is all about hateing the president and current foreign policy, let me point out you got a perfectly valid chance coming up to elect them out of office. And contrary to what this post is backwards implying, the current administration will be happy to step down if they lose the election.

Socialism in this material driven society is the least of my concerns..its more facism thats rearing its ugly head , just look at all the Corporations who are controlling things

This isn't about hating the president, I presently don't hate Bush or the admistration, they scare me, unlike you I don't believe that this administration would be happy to step down if they loose, seeing as how they stole the 1rst election ..and I do believe it was stolen..and some of the very same tactics are still being used, but I'm guessing by your post your clueless about such things. and I don't need to imply anything I said exactly what I mean't to say..no need to imply!!

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:31 PM

Quote:
If your referring to the Patriot ACT. I have yet to meet a man or hear of a man that was put away for selling weed and the patriot act is what caught him. Its for finding terrorists. None of my rights have been taken away. I can still talk trash about the government, even though I work for them. .

yes I am referring to the Patriot ACT,, but thats my big problem with the Patriot ACT, its not going to effect any terrorist, its going to effect Americans, terrorist are going to do what they will and what they want, the laws are an encroachment on our freedoms..and they are a gateway to lead to other things

one thing I understand and that history has shown and proven, power is like a drug, the more someone has the more they want, it will start with the Patriot Act..but where will it end???

this is what we have to be aware of!!

Quote:
Until they start publicly beheading folk on the common for speaking out against the government, I think your still safe.

see this is what I'm afraid of, not to say that I think they'll behead people publicly, but does it have to get that far before we realize whats happening.

I think thats what happened with alot of Germans , they ingnored things until it got so bad they were afraid to do anything

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:51 PM

Quote:
I believe that the forces of totalitarianism have been making some serious inroads in the past couple of years. The disdain for intellectuals and the demonizing of the arts by the right-wing is very disturbing. The wholesale use of derision in lieu of logical argumentation by the right-wing at the highest levels of policy is fascistic. The prevalent notion that there is no actual truth out there--only spin; that all opinions amount to propaganda is a seminal fascist notion. The way Bush and Cheney & co. will say a thing and then a few months later deny ever having said it constitutes a willful disregard for reality and history. The perceived need for world military domination is something only fascists need. But the single greatest totalitarian trend in America today is that nearly half of the nation seems perfectly willing to go along. A fascist leader isn't gonna get very far unless people sign up to embrace their lies as truth and support their international adventurism in the name of peace and freedom.

yes it is unfortunate, that people seem to think its about hating the president..its not I've looked through this thread and I already see where they've brought up democrates and tit for tat....

I'm talking about whats happening now under this admistration, I understand that its very hard for some to even comtemplate America turning into a facist totalitarian like government, but if it does happen or something simular happens it will be those very people crying the loudest and asking themselves how did this happen!!

This current administration is creating their own reality, they obviously have a vision of what they want this nation to be, they are creating our future..a future that we have to live in

what people in this country seem to not realize is that we have alot of power we can too have a hand in creating what our future looks like, whats hard for me to believe that in a country as rich and self sustaining as ours that people are so ignorant..not just about things that go on in the world but even right here in our on country, we invaded Iraq and most Americans don't even know that Iraq is Mesopotamia , Summria, one the oldest high civilations, I just use that as an example

If we don't get off our butts and do something it doesn't matter if Bush is in office or not, our days as a Democracy will be numbered regardless!!

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:23 PM

Quote:
nope. Situation isn't anywhere close to Germany...

Germany was suffering from a huge a** war reperations debt forced upon it by the allies from World War I, their morale was at an all time low... and I mean, they were in a big big depression with inflation being insane. Their country was weak, it was getting bullied by all sides.

The rise of Hitler was only a natural response, Germans have a tendency to seek a strong patriarchal government which takes care of its people. And that's what happened...

...America as of yet is still able to bully other people, and despite the fact we're alienating others, we're not in any need of radical changes that could sway american public opinion to another preemptive strike. Iraq... was a freak accident. Its not possible to use 9/11 as a reason again for war.

...but i could be wrong.

I read this post an cringed for the obvious reasons. ( invading Iraq a freak accident )I have to admit that it sometimes baffles me that Americans and I too am an American can't see this happening to us..

It could happen here...Of course it wouldn't be exactly like Germany..thats for obvious reasons we aren't Germany and our circumstances aren't the same..but that doesn't mean that it won't happen here.

What goes up , will eventually come down, nothing remains the same nothing is constant, everything changes.

Yes your right when you say that America is still able to bully other countries, and because we are still able to do so, we the American people look on callously and arrogantly, Not all of us of course..

but whats going to happen when the day comes and it will come, when one of these countries we've bullied gets some Nuclear bombs that they can launch on us...

will we look on so arrogantly then!!...will we remain ignorant of the facts then will we sing the praises of an admistration like the current one, will be have Slogans like wanted dead or alive.

One day probably alot sooner then later with the way things are going one of these Countries, that we've bullied is going to whip our ass..every bully has its day..so we need to think long an hard about how we treat the world because we are a part of it

yeah its easy for us now..its easy to be ingnorant, but our attitude is going to be the end of us if we don't make some changes..not just our status in the world as a society..but our life!!

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:38 PM

Quote:
Higher taxes would make me not want to work as hard, as the bonus for working hard really wouldn't be worth the effort.

actually I wouldn't mind higher taxes if we had something to show for it like they do in countries such as Sweeden, those people pay high taxes , but they have some of the best living standards in the world they are highly educated, as long as you past your test universty is free, they have some of the best healthcare, they take great care of their ederly and children, yes they pay high taxes but their quality of life is superior

a country/ government is measured by how well it takes care of its people

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:41 PM

HKCAVALIER

I find it all kinds of ironic that people will justify Bush's war on Iraq with Saddam Hussein's slim chances of maybe one day becoming a threat, but they aren't able to see the potential, the real threat which another four years of Bush poses to America and the rest of the world. We may be less fascistic today than Germany was in the 30's, but we wouldn't have as far to go. Hitler could only dream of the kind of military presence we enjoy today. Maybe absolute power in the hands of Americans won't corrupt us absolutely, but mightn't it corrupt us just a leettle bit? Even us?

The most disturbing thing to me in the comparison with Adolph is actually a contrast not a similarity: Hitler clearly, passionately hated the Jewish people, so he tried to eradicate them. The neo-cons on the other hand will kill tens of thousands of people just so they can make over Iraq as a capitalist utopia. The administration doesn't hate the Iraqis, the Iraqi people are just in the way. There's no hate, just utter dehumanizing greed.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:41 PM

SERGEANTX

It seems to me that the US isn't so much like Nazi Germany, but more like the 'Alliance' from that failed sci-fi/western series on fox a years back. Did any of you see that? It was pretty good.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:51 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
It seems to me that the US isn't so much like Nazi Germany, but more like the 'Alliance' from that failed sci-fi/western series on fox a years back. Did any of you see that? It was pretty good.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Hey, SergeantX! Hey, you and I've been here since before that show was even cancelled, but I can't recall ever reading a thread being posted specifically to compare the modern United States with the Alliance of 500 years hence. Do you remember such a thread being posted? Sure, folks have made the comparison but has it been discussed at any length really? I remember maybe a few posts hijacking various other threads but nothing definitive. Am I just suffering a little cyber-amnesia?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:09 PM

SERGEANTX

I'm not sure. I may have started one actually. Or maybe I'm just thinking of threads where it came up. I know I've always been sympathetic to the view that the Alliance would have, if the series had continued, proven to be not the monolithic evil entity that Mal saw, but something more like the U.S.

I even remember an interview with Joss where this was discussed. He talked about how America does a lot of good in the world, but if you happen to be from Vietnam or any of the places where U.S. presence isn't so welcome, you might have a different view. He said Mal fought in Vietnam.

Anyway, yeah, I think it's been discussed, but you ought to go ahead and start a thread, if that's what you're suggesting. I've been coming here so long it sometimes seems like everything's been said, but I'm sure we can squeeze something more out of it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:43 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

But I also wonder how many German's basically thought the same thing
[snip]
so I'll ask the question again..are we living in the beginning stages of Nazi Germany

Yes, in the 30's leading up to the war the "intellectuals" did know what was going on (aside from the Jews thing). They tried to warn people, but they didn't listen until it was too late.

You are living in a country very similar to Germany in the 30's. The rest of the world sees it, and we have no idea why the bulk of you guys don't.

As for the Partiot Act. It has taken away *many* rights and freedoms from you guys. One of them being "fair use" rights. Here's a nice quote:

"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin 1706-1790

If the US had more (a lot more) people like you, this wouldn't be happening. Then again, people who actually ask questions and listen are becoming rarer and rarer with each passing year. So, live long and reproduce.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 6:45 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by LexiBlock:

It's how others think that matters. The majority of the world said "don't start this war" - but Bush said screw you, we are going to war.
99% of the populations of the middle east HATE the US for that!

A great many of us hate Bush for that. And roughly 50% of us voted against him in the last election, and plan to vote against him in the upcoming. So don't blame us for his bankrupt foreign policy.

To me, it's not so much that what he's doing in the middle east is evil so much as it is STUPID!.

We had the sympathy of much of the world after 9/11, including a great many countries that would normally have been neutral; that sympathy barely waivered when we invaded Afghanistan. Why?

Because that war was logically justifyable; the Taliban had clear connections to Bin Laden & company, and had provided training grounds and logistical support.

Had we chosen to consolidate our position in Afghanistan then, (while keeping a weather eye on Iraq, of course), we could have forged something solid, something to demonstrate true American ideals. Human Rights. Building for the common good. Universal sufferage.

Had Iraq eventually re-developed a credible WMD potential, we might have had support for an invasion then.

Instead, to advance his personal or professional agendas, Bush acted like an overeager teenager, and divided our forces.

It's not some much a question to me of "Did we have a reason to invade Iraq?" as "Did we have a pressing reason to invade Iraq right then?" Had Iraq been a credible short-term danger, the immediacy of the invasion may have been logically (and logistically) justifiable , but it became obvious early on that Bush wanted the second war for some other reason than any immediate threat posed by Iraq. He wanted this war now Now NOW!, like a spoiled brat in the "GI Joe" aisle of K-Bee Toys.

And I'm greatly afraid that if he's elected (notice I didn't say RE-elected), that he'll expand the conflict into further territory, trading America's long-term interests for short-term personal advantage, and justifying it all in the name of love of country.

I'm afraid that if he's elected, he'll find a way to suspend the constitution, run for a third term, or a fourth, changing the rules as he goes, all for our own good of course. Hell, he might even believe it. A fanatic, after all, is someone who doubles his speed as soon as he's lost sight of his goal.

So, to address the subject of this thread at last, not, I don't believe we're living in a modern day fascist Nazi Germany, at least not yet.

But we're close enough to the line to make me wake up in a cold sweat sometimes.

"You can't enslave a free man. The most you can do is kill him." -- Robert A. Heinlein

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:53 PM

Piratejenny:

I personally prefer to have government play as little of a role as possible in my personal affairs. I believe in a hands off government, and I believe in people taking care of their own. Some people disagree and also live very well because of it, more power to them. If I didn't feel my life was of a suitable quality, I'd probably move to Sweden

.

But the essence, in my mind anyway, of keeping more of my money is to save some aside for healthcare and education for my family.

As always, this is just one man's uninformed opinion.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 9:53 PM

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:33 AM

GHOULMAN

From PROJECT CENSORED.org

Law Enforcement Agencies Spy on Innocent Citizens
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/16.html
With virtually no media coverage or public scrutiny, a major reorganization of the US domestic law enforcement intelligence apparatus is well underway and, in fact, is partially completed. The effort to create a new national intelligence collection, analysis, and sharing system has frightening implications for privacy and other civil liberties.

In the aftermath of 9/11, the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) with Department of Justice (DOJ) assistance decided to organize a summit in early 2002; the topic was “Criminal Intelligence Sharing: Overcoming Barriers to Enhance Domestic Security.” At the summit, a select group of 100 “criminal intelligence experts” and VIPs from local, state, and federal agencies—including the military—formulated what came to be known as the “National Criminal Intelligence Sharing Plan” (NCISP).

The IACP summit report calls for the creation of a “Criminal Intelligence Coordinating Council” (CICC). The Global Intelligence Working Group became operational under the umbrella of John Ashcroft’s Department of Justice (DOJ) as the first incarnation of the CICC in the fall of 2002.

Go to the website for the whole article...

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:37 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I think that Tash is a little bit Nazi. He won't let me watch the Buffy/Angel dvd's out of order. How controlling is that?

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:06 AM

HARDAN

I haven't read the whole thread but i find the topic very interesting because I've discussed the very same topic a few weeks ago with some friends.

As you maybe know in europe is the attitude for the US is mostly more negative than negative. I always try to be as objective as possible and don't see things in a such radical way as my friends which say bush is a terrorist himself ecetera ecetera...

But as we compared the present US with Germany in the 30's we agreed that one thing is common. The Patriotism. When I see around europe i don't find a country were patriotism is as strong as in America. Not even the UK

I think most people are proud of their country (i am proud of being Swiss) but they are also very critical about it.

I think it's still a trauma of the nazi-time were we had the people blindly following a man. I mean you have to see that Hitler did some very good things (from a german view in that time). He brought the country out of a huge crisis to the strongest force in europe. The people trusted him and followed him to their doom.

And I think we get (here in europe through our media) a similar picture of the US. We see a Britney Spears who sais: "We should trust our president no matter what". We see every house has an american flag in their garden. We don't understand that (I would feel stupid to have a swiss flag on my house). I mean america has its Justification for it, it's the most powerful and influental country on this planet. But we miss the critizism.

I know that there is critizism (towards bush etc.) but it seems that many people don't show it because they are think it would be bad for their country, because its "unpatriotic". (I don't know how you see it but thats my impression).

-----------------------------
Yes there are Fireflyfans all over the world. Even in little switzerland.

btw. sorry for my bad english

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:27 AM

Hehe..Hardan, your grasp of english is better then most who use it as their primary language.

Fortunately in the US..the majority of folks don't follow a leader blindly. Though there have been some instances of late where it would seem like it. Also, here in the US there is a daily barage of criticism for Bush (much of it deserved), in general there is a lot of criticism for all our politicians (the slimey bastiches that they are) and that ultimately is not viewed as unpatriotic.

There is a fine line that is crossed on occasion when it comes to Patriotism in the US. Basically, in my view it's similar to family problems. Every country to a degree can be looked upon as a large family. Even if we are doing something wrong, if someone says or does something against us, many times we all (in some fashion or another..right or wrong) bristle in defense. Especially when an outsider speaks against us. The same can be said for those who are citizens of our country who go abroad and speak badly about our country. Call it the "dirty laundry syndrome" hehe. A good example would be the Dixie Chicks..many took offense to Natalie bad-mouthing our president in another country during war-time, because many feel our problems are our problems and not something to be aired publicly in another country (especially when it comes to financial gain LOL).

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:19 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardan:

But as we compared the present US with Germany in the 30's we agreed that one thing is common. The Patriotism. When I see around europe i don't find a country were patriotism is as strong as in America. Not even the UK

I don't think that you mean patriotism. I'm a patriotic Canadian, but wouldn't even think to do most of the things that the americans consider "patriotic." I really think that you meant nationalistic, which would be the proper term to describe what goes on down there *shutter*

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:22 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Quote:
we're clearly such bullies for shutting down the torture rooms in Iraq

Not to fan the flames of this argument too much, but I just wanted to point out that the torture rooms weren't actually shut down - they were just re-opened under new management.

"I like smackin' 'em!" - Jayne Cobb

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:00 PM

DIETCOKE

Tsk...You really think so little of your fellow Americans?

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Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:57 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
Tsk...You really think so little of your fellow Americans?

....hmmm well, besides the fact thay keep electing idiots for leaders, they allowed Firefly to fall by the way side! I might forgive my fellow citizens for the leader thing, but dammit, cancelling Firefly was injustice plain and simple. Guess I'm a little biased.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LostInTheVerse:
Piratejenny:

I personally prefer to have government play as little of a role as possible in my personal affairs. I believe in a hands off government, and I believe in people taking care of their own. Some people disagree and also live very well because of it, more power to them. If I didn't feel my life was of a suitable quality, I'd probably move to Sweden .

But the essence, in my mind anyway, of keeping more of my money is to save some aside for healthcare and education for my family.

As always, this is just one man's uninformed opinion.

~ Lost In The 'Verse

"About a year before we met, I spent 6 months on a moon where the primary form of recreation was juggling geese. My hand to god. Baby geese. Goslings. They were juggled!"

I believe that their needs to be a balance between government and freedom, I don't want the government dictating to me my every move, thats one of the reasons why I don't want Bush and his gang back in office

But we pay taxes, I feel that there are some things that the government can do more effciently and cheaper, I also feel that a government because its our money has a responssibilty to see that the people in the country are well cared for this is why I admire country's like Sweeden and the Netherlands..for a country to do well it has to have a balance of both socialism and capitalism, I think those countries I speak of are good examples

In a country as rich in natural resources and as self sustaining as ours, its a shame that we have people that are homeless and hungry.. without healthcare, its a shame that ederly people have to choose between eating and paying for medication, or loosing their homes if they are fortuante enough to have one because they can't pay the property taxes..etc..etc.. the list just goes on an on, its a shame that in certain parts of this country in every city that people live in conditions that are close to third world..it doesn't have to be that way nor should it.. a country is measured by its people..what does it say about us that people in a rich country such as ours live like that...

Our education in this system is out dated and need to be resturctured, its a joke, is it any wonder people are so ignorant in this country..we can do better we have the resources to do so much better and yet we don't

its amazing to me how this country has shelled out billions to go war on people, but they won't do it for education.

I'm happy and glad for you that you have healthcare and have money to put aside for your children's education..

but alot of people in this country aren't so fortunate..as has been stated many times most people even people living in nice nighorhoods and who drive nice cars, are only one or two paychecks away from being homeless.

Because we pay taxes we should all have something to show for it, we should all benifit from the money that we give to our Public servants,

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Sunday, October 31, 2004 9:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
There is at least ONE major parallel between the modern U.S. and Nazi Germany and that is in our prison populations.

Germany had a prison population similar to the U.S.'s in which a large percentage was made up of people arrested for non-violent (victimless) crimes. In their case: being the wrong religion, ethnicity or having the wrong sexual preference along with modern staples such as using drugs, being a prostitute, etc.

History informs us that the German prison system morphed into labor camps (benefiting corporations) and then, when the camps became too full, morphed again into concentration camps which disposed of the "unwanted" people.

Of all the modern industrialized nations, the U.S. has the largest percentage of its own people behind bars. Many corporate industries now benefit from this captive work force. Hell, even Microsoft uses prison labor to package it's products. At the rate America is arresting people while simultaneously running out of money for new prisons... what will the U.S. "labor camp" prisons morph into, I wonder?

So....

We know that people alleged to be terrorists can be held indefinitely without access to lawyers or a fair trial (see: Guantanamo Bay).

We've also seen marijuana smugglers treated as terrorists (WA State pot bust utilizing Patriot Act provisions).

It may not be the EXACT flavor of Germany's police state 60-70 years ago... but it's close enough for the same after taste: erosion of liberty.

How much scarier do things need to get?

mattro

I had been wanting to respond to this post but due to my busy life I haven't been able until now

I think this is a very real concern, people need to take a close look at whats been happening to our prison system, as you've stated the reason why prisons are so full is because most of the people in them are in for non violent crimes such as drugs etc, (selling using), and they are also being given longer sentences for these offences

Corporations are buying up prisons ( surprise surprise) , because its cheap labor, I don't have all the details but a friend of mine was telling me something recently about how Laura Bush is heading up something that has to due with prison labor,

I think this is grave indication of what direction this country is heading in...

you don't have to be sitting in a think tank to know when the ecomny gets bad, choices are limtited... most poor people either join the miltary, or steal

so its a win win situation for the facist, and if they are helping to make laws to make such conditions ripe and tailor them to their needs then so much the better

I can easily see our Prisons becoming full blown concentration camps...its predictable..its already in the stages to being just that!!

but this is a huge concern because, I can see them in the future arresting someone for stealing a bottle of asprin or a loaf of bread and sentencing them to 5/6 years of hard labor..just to keep a steady source of slave labor

Our prisons are already heading in the direction of cocentration camps, the horrifying thing about it is the people in them the punishment does not fit the crime

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Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:11 PM

WADDLEDOODLE

No.

Have you ever been to Germany? Spoken with Germans? Cracked a history book?

You're obviously hysterical.

My goodness...

You ask a question like that but offer no points of fact. I'm sorry to have to explain to you that the United States government has a responsibilty to it's citizens. Period. I don't pay taxes to fund public works in Finland. The American government has a responsibilty to protect it's citizens. Period. Since liberty has given us the the greatest nation on earth, we're exporting liberty abroad. You might think that's true, but I'm guessing there's not much that will change your mind. By out actions in World War two, when we declared war on Germany, despite NOT having been attacked by German. Why didn't we just focus on the Japanese?

You approach the subject with pure emotion rather than reason. Is the government watching YOU? Have you been taken out of your bed at night and thrown into a gulag? Are you forced to join any organizations or face peril? Are you able to dissent without threat of reprisal? Any Kerry supporters attacked in the news lately? If anything, I've read/heard/seen LOTS of Bush/Cheney signs getting ripped down. Lots of Bush/Cheney Campaign HQs broken into.

Please, for the love of god, read something other than NAOM CHOMSKY. Try Thomas Jefferson.
Watch something other than Fahreneit 9/11, try FahrenHYPE 9/11

Try to be a little more open and understanding.

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Sunday, October 31, 2004 4:17 PM

WADDLEDOODLE

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
There is at least ONE major parallel between the modern U.S. and Nazi Germany and that is in our prison populations.

Germany had a prison population similar to the U.S.'s in which a large percentage was made up of people arrested for non-violent (victimless) crimes. In their case: being the wrong religion, ethnicity or having the wrong sexual preference along with modern staples such as using drugs, being a prostitute, etc.

History informs us that the German prison system morphed into labor camps (benefiting corporations) and then, when the camps became too full, morphed again into concentration camps which disposed of the "unwanted" people.

Of all the modern industrialized nations, the U.S. has the largest percentage of its own people behind bars. Many corporate industries now benefit from this captive work force. Hell, even Microsoft uses prison labor to package it's products. At the rate America is arresting people while simultaneously running out of money for new prisons... what will the U.S. "labor camp" prisons morph into, I wonder?

So....

We know that people alleged to be terrorists can be held indefinitely without access to lawyers or a fair trial (see: Guantanamo Bay).

We've also seen marijuana smugglers treated as terrorists (WA State pot bust utilizing Patriot Act provisions).

It may not be the EXACT flavor of Germany's police state 60-70 years ago... but it's close enough for the same after taste: erosion of liberty.

How much scarier do things need to get?

mattro

I had been wanting to respond to this post but due to my busy life I haven't been able until now

I think this is a very real concern, people need to take a close look at whats been happening to our prison system, as you've stated the reason why prisons are so full is because most of the people in them are in for non violent crimes such as drugs etc, (selling using), and they are also being given longer sentences for these offences

Corporations are buying up prisons ( surprise surprise) , because its cheap labor, I don't have all the details but a friend of mine was telling me something recently about how Laura Bush is heading up something that has to due with prison labor,

I think this is grave indication of what direction this country is heading in...

you don't have to be sitting in a think tank to know when the ecomny gets bad, choices are limtited... most poor people either join the miltary, or steal

so its a win win situation for the facist, and if they are helping to make laws to make such conditions ripe and tailor them to their needs then so much the better

I can easily see our Prisons becoming full blown concentration camps...its predictable..its already in the stages to being just that!!

but this is a huge concern because, I can see them in the future arresting someone for stealing a bottle of asprin or a loaf of bread and sentencing them to 5/6 years of hard labor..just to keep a steady source of slave labor

Our prisons are already heading in the direction of cocentration camps, the horrifying thing about it is the people in them the punishment does not fit the crime

Hard labor? LOL.

What slave labor? The majority of criminals SIT in jail. Maybe they SHOULD be building our roads...then they might think twice about "stealing aspirin". About your stealing bread and aspirin; I'll bet you I can find, oh...I don't know....100,000 other cases involving rape, murder, theft etc. So don't pretend that evey criminal was just hungry and had a headache. No one said the criminal justice system was perfect, but it's not nazi germany.

Our prisions are concentration camps?????

Really. Well, enjoy your Koolaid.

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Monday, November 1, 2004 3:49 AM