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Originally posted by Succatash:
Is Mormonism Christian?

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Who gets to decide the definition of Christian?

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From what I understand, Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. But Christian churches and denominations do not consider Mormonism to be Christian.

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But in the context of world religions, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - don't Mormons fall into the Christian category?

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Is it all relative?

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Are we doomed to listen to Christians and Mormons argue for all eternity?

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Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.

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Originally posted by rallem:
While in College and studying World History I discoved that one of Christ's lessons was stricken from our bible because it taught that churches were unimportant. If I remember correctly Christ said something to the effect that to be a Christian all one needed was the spirit of Christ in their heart.

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The Gospel of Thomas is a manuscript containing a collection of sayings of Jesus that was discovered among a hoard of ancient manuscripts at Nag Hammadi in Egypt in 1945. There are references to the work in early Christian writings, but historians assumed it had been lost. The writing is not a "gospel" in the strictest sense, because there is no connecting narrative about the life of Jesus, no summaries of his teachings, and no theological interpretations and commentary, as for example in the Gospel of John. Thomas is simply a list of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus (called logoi, "words") not arranged in any chronological or topical order. Some of the sayings closely parallel sayings that appear in the Gospels, some are similar, and nearly half appear nowhere in Scripture.

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3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

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Originally posted by Hixie129:
1) George Bush thinks he gets to decide what is Christian.

2) Mormons fall into the category of door to door salesmen; They often get mistaken for door to door vacuum cleaner sales people.

3) You don’t have to listen to them for all eternity; just don’t open your door when they ring the bell.

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Originally posted by Hixie129:
1) George Bush thinks he gets to decide what is Christian.

2) Mormons fall into the category of door to door salesmen; They often get mistaken for door to door vacuum cleaner sales people.

3) You don’t have to listen to them for all eternity; just don’t open your door when they ring the bell.

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Originally posted by Succatash:
I've never heard of that. Who says Catholics aren't Christian?

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Originally posted by Hixie129:
Rallen

That must have been one good looking Mormon woman for you to change Gods....

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I don't care a whit what someone believes, I care what they DO.

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

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Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.

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This seems like the only reasonable way to define Christianity. If they believe that Jesus was the son of God, their Christians.

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Originally posted by Succatash:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

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Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.

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This seems like the only reasonable way to define Christianity. If they believe that Jesus was the son of God, their Christians.

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But Mormons believe that if they do all the right things, they will become God of their own world. They don't consider Jesus to be God in the typical Christian view of the Trinity. To them, Jesus is the physical son of God, a completely separate entity. Jesus is the brother of Lucifer. God was once a man, like us, but he lived on another planet. Access to heaven comes from good works - I don't know, none of this sounds very Christian to me. It actually sounds quite blasphemous from a Christian standpoint and I can understand why other Christians don't let them into their club.

When their very definitions of God, Jesus, access to heaven, and eternal life, - and our origins - all differ greatly from other Christians, can they still accurately use the term 'Christian' ?

Hmm


"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Originally posted by Storymark:
They worship Jesus. Seems clear-cut to me. I see the refusal of other denominations to recognize them as Christian as strictly territorial.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Originally posted by Hixie129:
Rallen

That must have been one good looking Mormon woman for you to change Gods....

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was the son of God. A separate entity from God, he was created to be the perfect man, to experience the life of men, and to be persecuted by men. In his death, by forgiving mankind, he enabled God to likewise forgive mankind.

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Christianity is the Baskin Robbins of religion. There are at least Thrity-Onederful flavors.

--Anthony

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe ....

Some Christians believe ....

Some Christians believe ....

Some Christians believe....

Some Christians believe....

Christianity is the Baskin Robbins of religion. There are at least Thrity-Onederful flavors. Mormons are one such flavor.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Erm... Who cares?

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Recognized by whom, Succatash? That might influence the size of the list.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was a prophet.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There’s more. So much more.

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Originally posted by Succatash:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There’s more. So much more.

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Seriously, Jehova's Witnessess is the best example you have?





"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was a prophet.

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This is the one I couldn't get. Thought it was Jews and Muslims that recognized Jesus as prophet but not son of god.

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THE NICENE CREED ON THE CHURCH

* We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

[J.S. Bach, a devout Lutheran, wrote a musical setting for the
Liturgy known as the B-minor Mass. In his setting for the words
printed above, there are two melody lines. One is a traditional
Latin plainchant melody, and the other is a traditional Lutheran
chorale melody. They are played and sung simultaneously, and they
interweave and harmonize perfectly.]

The Creed speaks of (1) the Unity of the Church, (2) the Sanctity of
the Church, (3) the Catholicity of the Church, and (4) the
Apostolicity of the Church.

[NOTE: Some versions of the Creed omit the word "holy" in describing
the Church. When the traditional translation of the Creed into
English was made in the 1500's, the oldest available Greek
manuscript of the Creed omitted the word "holy", and therefore the
translators mistakenly supposed that it was a later addition. In
fact it is part of the original Creed, and almost every recent
printing of the Creed includes it.]

(1) The Church is One, and the bonds of Unity are Faith and
Love. Heresy violates the former, and schism the latter. Heretics
violate the unity of the Church by holding to beliefs or practices
that are incompatible with the Gospel that the Church has been
commissioned to proclaim, so that the Church cannot include them in
her fellowship without compromising, diluting, or denying the Gospel
message. Schismatics violate the unity of the Church by requiring
from others, as a condition of fellowship, assent to doctrines or
practices that are not an essential part of the Gospel (though they
may be compatible with it). We ought therefore to ask ourselves:
"Have I sinned against faith by denying or failing to uphold
doctrines essential to the message of the Gospel? Have I sinned
against love by requiring as a condition of Christian fellowship
agreement with me on matters where Christians may differ and still
remain Christians?"

(2) The Church is Holy. Some persons understand this to mean
that individual church members are virtuous -- that you can tell
which group most truly embodies the church by noting which group has
the fewest members who are or ought to be in trouble with the
police. This understanding implies that holiness is something that
we confer upon the Church -- that by working hard to improve our own
personal scores on the Virtue chart we boost the team average. But
the older idea is that Holiness is something that the Church confers
upon us -- that Our Lord Jesus Christ is Holy, and that He has
called us to holiness in Him, and that He brings us into fellowship
with Him through the community of believers, by the Sacraments, by
the preaching of the Gospel message, by the mutual love and
fellowship of the community, by experience of praying and being
prayed for, of learning and teaching, of forgiving and being
forgiven. We ought therefore to ask ourselves: "Am I opening myself
to God's grace as He makes it available to me through the Chrisian
community? Instead of concentrating on my dissatisfaction with those
persons in the Church who appear to be unsatisfactory channels of
grace, am I looking for, and taking advantage of, whatever spiritual
nourishment is available? Am I, in my turn, being open to being used
by God as a channel of grace to others? Am I making it easier for
them to grow in Christian faith and love? Am I ready to forgive, and
ready fo seek forgiveness of others?

(3) The Church is Catholic. The Greek word KATHOLIKOS comes
from KATA (a preposition with various meanings depending on the
context, often meaning "down" or "negative" as in "catabolic" or
"catastrophe" or "cathode," but also often meaning "according to")
and HOLOS (meaning "whole" as in "holistic medicine," which claims
to treat the whole patient and not just the particular ailment
complained of), and thus means, literally, "according to the whole."
The meaning of the word as applied to the Church has evolved.

Probably the first Christians to use the term were simply
distinguishing the entire Church worldwide from particular
congregations. If you said something about the Church, they would
ask, "Do you mean the Church in Corinth, or the Church Catholic?"

Around AD 175, Irenaeus of Lyons used it in disputing with the
Gnostics. Many Gnostics claimed that their teaching was "the real
Gospel." They said that Christ had had two messages. The first
message, called "exoteric Christianity," was his message preached to
the ordinary man, who was not very "spiritual," and was capable of
understanding only a very simple message. The second message, called
"esoteric Christianity," was told only to a chosen few who had shown
themselves worthy of it, and was concealed from the masses, because
they would only misunderstand and pervert it, and would persecute
the chosen few who were sufficiently elevated spiritually and
intellectually to be able to understand it. For a modern parallel,
look for the advertisements of the Rosicrucians (AMORC). They
advertise in a large range of magazines, at one time including the
National Geographic. Their pitch is that they are a secret society
that has existed since ancient times, and that Socrates, Archimedes,
Galileo, Isaac Newton, Benjamin Franklin, and other respected men
now safely dead were all members. No proof, of course. It is a
secret society. They say, "Our message cannot be entrusted to the
masses, but only to those who after careful examination are found
worthy to learn it. So send us twenty big ones and we will spill our
guts."

In replying to the Gnostics, Irenaeus argued that Christians
have never had a secret doctrine in the Gnostic sense. He argues
that Christ had no secrets from The Twelve (John 15:15), that the
Twelve accepted Paul as one of themselves (2 Peter 3:15), and that
both Paul (Acts 20:26f) and the original Twelve (Matthew 28:20) were
under strict commandment to pass on to their converts all that they
had been taught. The Gospel, the whole Gospel, is to be declared to
all men. All are called to a saving knowledge of God in Christ. In
this sense, the Church is Catholic, in contrast both with
pre-Christian Israel and with the Gnostics.

Irenaeus goes on to say: If Christ did have a special message,
you would expect him to entrust it to his apostles, and you would
expect the apostles to entrust it to the leaders of the
congregations they founded. If we look in cities that are mentioned
in the New Testament as places where the Apostles preached, such as
Jerusalem, or Antioch, or Corinth, or Ephesus, or Rome, we find that
in each of them there is a Christian congregation, headed by a
bishop who is part of an unbroken and orderly line of bishops going
back to the time when the Church in that city was first established
by an apostle. Moreover, we find, if we do a little comparing, that
the Church in Ephesus and its bishop teach the same doctrines as the
Church in Antioch and its bishop. Thus, we have the Church as a
world-wide community, with each local congregation agreeing in
doctrine with the other congregations spread throughout the world,
and also with its predecessor reaching back in time to the Apostles
and through them to Christ Himself.

(4) The Church is Apostolic. That is to say, it is the
community that Christ founded with the Apostles as nucleus. We read
of the first Christian converts added to the Church at Jerusalem
that "the continued steadfast in the apostles' teaching and
fellowship, and in the breaking of bread, and the prayers." (Acts
2:42) In order to be a Christian, it is not enough to be in the
Apostles' teaching. You must also be in the Apostles' fellowship.
The Church is a group, just as the Scouts are a group. Suppose that
someone found a Boy Scout Manual, and read it, and said, "I like
this!" Suppose that he then sat down and memorized the Scout Oath
and the Scout Law, and learned to tie 21 different kinds of knots
blindfolded, and how to pitch a tent, and how to swim 25 yards
underwater, and how to read a compass, and all the other things that
a Scout is required to know and to do. Suppose that he further made
a point of being trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous,
kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Would
it be accurate to say that he was a Scout? I think the answer is
clearly negative. He might be called Scout-like. He would be someone
whom the Scouts would gladly welcome aboard. But until he gets in
contact with the Scout organization and joins up, he is not a Scout.

In like fashion, to be a Christian does not mean simply holding a
certain set of beliefs, even if accompanied by appropriate behavior.
It means belonging to the Christian community, to the Church. When
God sent an angel to the centurion Cornelius (Acts 10), the angel
did not instruct him in Christian doctrine and tell him, "Now, if
you believe what I have just said, that makes you a Christian."
Rather, he told him how to get in touch with the Christian community
by sending a messenger to Peter in Joppa. When Saul was on the road
to Damascus, Christ spoke to him. But He did not instruct Saul in
Christian doctrine. Rather, He told him to go into Damascus and wait
for instructions, and then He sent Ananias, a Christian, to receive
Saul into the Christian community. And one of the marks of that
community is its continuity with the community that Christ founded
and upon whom the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost.



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Posted by: James E. Kiefer
Source: CHRISTIA File Archives
(for more info send INDEX CHRISTIA to listserv@asuvm.inre.asu.edu)

jab/15-Mar-94

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And similarly, it leaves out many people who identify themselves as Christian today.

I think a Christian is best described as someone who follows the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And that leaves a LOT of room for people who interpret his teachings differently, including those who embrace 'apocryphal' texts.

--Anthony

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Is Mormonism Christian? Who gets to decide the definition of Christian? ... in the context of world religions, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - don't Mormons fall into the Christian category?

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Originally posted by EmpireX:
I'm not sure who the "many people" are that you're refering to. Can you clarify?

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Originally posted by Succatash:
Is Mormonism Christian? Who gets to decide the definition of Christian?

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Originally posted by Succatash:
Is Mormonism Christian? Who gets to decide the definition of Christian?

From what I understand, Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. But Christian churches and denominations do not consider Mormonism to be Christian.

But in the context of world religions, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist - don't Mormons fall into the Christian category?

Is it all relative? Are we doomed to listen to Christians and Mormons argue for all eternity?

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Christianity is the Baskin Robbins of religion. There are at least Thrity-Onederful flavors. Mormons are one such flavor.

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
At the risk of repeating myself and angering Succatash with my choice of examples...

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

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Originally posted by Kirkules:

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Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Some Christians believe that Jesus was a prophet.

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This is the one I couldn't get. Thought it was Jews and Muslims that recognized Jesus as prophet but not son of god.

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Hello,

This one's a bit dated, I'm afraid. The Ebionites believed that Jesus was a prophet and not divine, but clove closely to his teachings. This differs from common Jewish people, who vaguely recognize Jesus as a prophet, but don't really include any of his teachings into their religion. (More of a P.R. recognition than anything, really.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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