REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What are GOP candidates running away from?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, May 16, 2011 18:56
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Wednesday, May 11, 2011 9:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...



Not a very impressive field, if you ask me...
Quote:

You almost never get to the verge of running for president without making a few moves you want to take back.

Indeed, many of the 2012 Republican presidential contenders have skeletons in the closet they would rather go unnoticed by the party faithful. How well they deal with them will help decide who emerges from the crowded, wide-open field to take President Obama on in the general election.

Below, a handy guide to the regrets of the major potential 2012 GOP presidential candidates - ranked from those with the most to forget to those who haven't changed a thing.


Donald Trump: It's hard to know where to start with The Donald. So let's just take a deep breath and dive in:

When he was considering running for president on the Reform Party ticket in 1999, Trump called himself "totally pro-choice." He now says he opposes abortion rights.

In his 2000 book, "The America We Deserve," Trump backed a one-time, 14.25 percent tax on Americans with a net worth of more than $10 million. Today, he says he wouldn't raise taxes to address the deficit, arguing that "this is a different time, a different world."

In the same book, Trump wrote that "we must have universal health care." He also wrote that "we need, as a nation, to reexamine the single-payer plan" -- and called for a health care system closer to Canada's.

Among the Democrats to whom Trump has donated are Rahm Emanuel, Charles Rangel, Harry Reid, Chuck Schumer, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry. While Trump has also donated to Republicans - like many businessmen, he has spread his money around - such donations are not easy to explain to a GOP primary electorate.

Top Trump aide Michael Cohen explained Trump's reversals to National Journal in February by saying that "[p]eople change their positions all the time, the way they change their wives."

"What you stood for 11 years ago you may not be standing for today," Cohen said. "Maybe it was the birth of his five children or his grandchild that changed his mind."


Mitt Romney: When Romney ran for president in the 2008 cycle, the former Massachusetts governor was criticized by many - including fellow Republicans like eventual nominee John McCain - for running away from his past, more moderate record on campaign finance reform, immigration and gun control, among other issues.

In 1994, Romney said he believed "abortion should be safe and legal in this country" and that the law allowing abortion should be upheld. Today, he says he opposes abortion rights.

Also in 1994, Romney told the Log Cabin Republicans that he favored "gays and lesbians being able to serve openly and honestly" in the military. By 2008, he opposed repeal of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

The biggest issue for Romney to address is health care reform. As Massachusetts governor, he signed into law a measure that looks an awful lot like President Obama's health care overhaul that is so disdained by Republicans. Romney has tried to differentiate between the two by stressing that the matter should be left to the states, but Republicans remain skeptical.

On Thursday, he will address the issue in Michigan, where he is slated to "present his plan to repeal and replace Obamacare with reforms that lower costs and empower states to craft their own health care solutions."

Quipped McCain in one 2007 debate, after being criticized by Romney: "I haven't changed my position on even number years or have changed because of the different offices that I might be running for."


Newt Gingrich: The former House Speaker has something of an insider problem: It's not good for a candidate to be seen as a product of Washington - particularly these days - and Gingrich may need to convince skeptical voters that he doesn't represent the establishment past. He has also been criticized for appearing to flip-flop on how best to handle Libya.

But perhaps the larger issue for Gingrich to deal with from his pre-campaign days is his personal history. Gingrich has been married three times, most recently to Callista Gingrich, with whom he had an extramarital affair when she was in her twenties. He is now trying to present himself as a religious family man - the Catholic-convert apologized for his infidelity on evangelical leader James Dobson's radio show - in what appears to be an effort to overcome the skepticism of cultural conservatives.

In March, Gingrich raised eyebrows when he suggested that his past indiscretions were driven in part by "how passionately I felt about this country."

"And what I can tell you is that when I did things that were wrong, I wasn't trapped in situation ethics, I was doing things that were wrong, and yet, I was doing it," he said. "I found that I felt compelled to seek God's forgiveness." He added that "our Judeo-Christian civilization is under attack" from "secular, atheist elitism."


Tim Pawlenty: The former Minnesota governor has carefully laid the groundwork for this 2012 campaign, but there is one issue that will likely continue to dog him: His onetime support for a so-called "cap and trade" system to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

In 2008, Pawlenty recorded a radio ad in which he urged Congress to "get moving" to "cap greenhouse gas pollution now." In 2006 and 2007, he was one of the leading Republicans voices on addressing climate change.

Pawlenty now casts that position as a mistake. At the GOP presidential debate last week, he said after studying the issue, he concluded that cap and trade was a "bad idea."

"We all, everybody here and anybody else who is going to running for president or considering running for president, if you've got an executive position and you've been in the battle, you're going to have some battle scars, or you're going to have a few clunkers in your record," he said. "We all do, and that's one of mine. I just admit it. I don't try to duck it, bob it, weave it, try to explain it away."

Interestingly, Gingrich has come under similar criticism for once appearing in an ad with Democrat Nancy Pelosi to say that "we do agree our country must take action to address climate change." But Gingrich isn't apologizing. "My point is conservatives ought to be prepared to stand on the same stage and offer a conservative solution," he said last May.


Sarah Palin: On most of her policy positions, Palin has held firm. But the fact that she resigned as Alaska governor two and a half years into her term rubs some Republicans the wrong way - particularly since she used her time out of office in part to film a reality television show.

"I have a high regard for Sarah Palin, but I will say I've been disappointed since she resigned as governor," onetime Palin booster Bill Kristol, editor of the conservative Weekly Standard, said in March. "I thought she had a real chance to take the lead on a few policy issues, do a little more in terms of framing the policy agenda. I don't think she's done that."

That's not Palin's only problem related to her past. The surprise 2008 vice presidential nominee's rhetoric during the campaign was immediately polarizing. She would likely have to at least somewhat overcome her image as a confrontational figure to have success in a general election campaign.


Mike Huckabee: The former Arkansas governor and 2008 presidential candidate has come under fire for his onetime support for giving illegal immigrants "a pathway to citizenship." Huckabee also supported efforts that would have provided scholarships to undocumented immigrants. The positions prompted Romney to paint Huckabee as soft on illegal immigration in the 2008 presidential campaign.

In 2007, Huckabee said he supported a mandatory cap-and-trade program, a position he now denies holding. He wrote in 2009 that cap and trade would have a "catastrophic" effect on the economy.

And Huckabee has been haunted by his alleged role in the release of convicted rapist Wayne DuMond, who was convicted of a new rape and murder after his release.


Jon Huntsman: The problem issue for the former moderate Utah governor is his decision to accept an offer to serve in the Obama administration, as ambassador to China. And doesn't he know it: Mr. Obama, in reference to Huntsman's plans to challenge him, has joked that "I'm sure that him having worked so well with me will be a great asset in any Republican primary." It doesn't help that Huntsman was found to have written a letter to the president in 2009 in which he called the president a "remarkable leader" - with the word "remarkable" underlined.

In his first speech since his return from China, Huntsman cast his decision to accept the ambassadorship as one of serving the country. "Work to keep America great. Serve her, if asked," he told graduates at the University of South Carolina. "I was, by a president of a different political party. But in the end, while we might not all be of one party, we are all part of one nation, a nation that needs your generational gift of energy and confidence."


Mitch Daniels: The Indiana governor is seen by many Republicans as their best hope for defeating President Obama in a general election. But if Daniels gets into the race, his record as Office of Management and Budget director under President Bush will come under greater scrutiny.

Daniels was the head of OMB from 2001 to 2003, and during that time he forecast the cost of the Iraq war at $50-$60 billion. Most experts saw that number as exceedingly low; by 2007, the cost of the war had exceeded $1 trillion.

Daniels, who was nicknamed "The Blade" for his budget-cutting impulse under Mr. Bush, also "carried water, as director of the Office of Management and Budget, for some of the Bush administration's more egregious budgets," as conservative columnist Ross Douthat put it. And while Daniels was at OMB the Clinton-era budget surplus became a budget deficit.


Rick Santorum: The former Pennsylvania senator is an unapologetic social conservative, and he has not modulated his positions as he has embarked on a long-shot bid for the 2012 nomination. But he has one minor skeleton in his closet - his past support for Republican-turned-Democrat Arlen Specter.

Pressed at a conservative conference last year on his decision to back Specter over the more conservative Pat Toomey in the 2004 Pennsylvania Senate primary, Santorum said he made a hard decision to support Specter, who was seen as the more electable option, because of his opposition to abortion.

Santorum said he made the decision because Specter had agreed to support then-President George W. Bush's Supreme Court nominees. (Specter denies this.) Santorum decided that it was worth backing Specter, he said, in order to help ensure a conservative Supreme Court that could overturn abortion rights.

"You questioned my judgment, and you have every right to do so," he said. "But please don't question my intention to do what's right for those little babies."

Santorum also has a Google problem. His position on gay rights prompted liberal gay rights activist and columnist Dan Savage to redefine "santorum" as an explicit aspect of gay sex, and if you Google his last name the result is the first to show up.


Michele Bachmann: Bachmann, a social and fiscal conservative, has remained solidly on the right side of the political spectrum as she has risen to national prominence.

While she certainly has something of a polarization problem, it's hardly something she could be said to be running away from.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20061623-503544.html?tag=stack

They forgot to mention Huckabee being the only one to raise his hand that he didn’t believe in evolution, in the last election. But maybe with the GOP that’s not something to feel one has to run away from...?

And BACHMAN?!? To any halfway INTELLIGENT person, she’s got more to run away from than anyone else in the field. Namely: Her insanity and her mouth! Then again, same as Huckabee, maybe that’s a SELLING POINT with Republicans...?

If this is all they've got, I'm afraid it's pretty much a lock for Obama, in my opinion.

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Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:09 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Maybe they're running away from a problem that they don't know how to solve.

But yeah, slim pickens

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 1:34 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Pawlenty and Daniels are the only two I (personally) feel could beat Obama, but I don't know if that makes them likely to win a Republican primary or not. I'm hoping the Tea Party pushes the Repub ticket out to the right, and they get someone like Palin or Bachmann. That would be fun

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:22 AM

DMAANLILEILTT


(As much as I hate being shallow and petty, I cant not) Male Pattern Baldness, perhaps?

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


And starting your political career in the living room of a terrorist commie revolutionary isn't news worthy ?

Or what about attending an America hating, racist church for 20 years ?

We'll shine the light on mole hills, and ignore the Mt Everest sized problems of The One....





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:44 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Meanwhile, some slimy bottom-dwelling garbage-eater named "Newt" announced that he's running for the Republican nomination.

And, true to form, he couldn't resist lying in his announcement video.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/11/newt-gi
ngrich/newt-gingrich-inaccurate-budget-debt-claims-video
-/

This is a man who apparently has never been able to tell the truth about a single thing in his life - not even his last name!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 4:47 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And starting your political career in the living room of a terrorist commie revolutionary isn't news worthy ?



McCain isn't running, dear.

Quote:


Or what about attending an America hating, racist church for 20 years ?



I thought Obama was a Muslim. He couldn't have attended that church, could he?

Quote:


We'll shine the light on mole hills, and ignore the Mt Everest sized problems of The One....



So you're saying Newt McPherson is "The One"?





"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 6:13 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And starting your political career in the living room of a terrorist commie revolutionary isn't news worthy ?

Or what about attending an America hating, racist church for 20 years ?




Yeah, Lord knows those tidbits NEVER got mentioned....

Go home, idiot. You're wasting bandwidth.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 7:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


What are the GOP-bagger candidates running away from? Their records, their base, their party, their so-called "ethics" (of which they have none to begin with), any sense of right and wrong, their constituents...

What AREN'T they running away from?

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:04 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Poor, poor Raptor. His powder sure has run dry, hasn't it? He's reduced to bringing up old GOP slogans from the last Presidential election! How sad...no, dear, those aren’t newsworthy, they’re old news and were just ginned-up shit in the first place. You need to come up with some new material...didn’t you complain about bringing up old Bush stuff? Seem to remember something like that.

Oh, wait, I just figured it out: He hasn’t got any answers to the question posed, he knows all the candidates are laughable, so this is another version of “No, YOU are!” Got it. Moving on now...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, May 12, 2011 8:06 AM

DREAMTROVE


Those who came to the debate are the candidates. Those who did not come are not candidates (yet).


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 10:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

Yeah, Lord knows those tidbits NEVER got mentioned....



Very rarely, if ever.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 10:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Poor, poor Raptor. His powder sure has run dry, hasn't it? He's reduced to bringing up old GOP slogans from the last Presidential election! How sad...no, dear, those aren’t newsworthy, they’re old news and were just ginned-up shit in the first place. You need to come up with some new material...didn’t you complain about bringing up old Bush stuff? Seem to remember something like that.

Oh, wait, I just figured it out: He hasn’t got any answers to the question posed, he knows all the candidates are laughable, so this is another version of “No, YOU are!” Got it. Moving on now...



Well dearie, dry powder is the best kind TO have...

Nothing about Obama's devious,ACTUAL past was 'ginned up', in the least. If anything, the MSM actively ran away from reporting it, and then were bemused at the lack of information we had on then candidate Obama.

He's a communist revolutionary, and it shows.

Before, you Left wing zealots could claim 'fear mongering', but no longer. Obama has shown us what / who he is, and y'all can't cover for him any longer. Your lame tactics won't work this time.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 11:35 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Speaking of starting one's political career in the "living room" of a "terrorist"...



How come Rappy has never once had an unkind word to say about this "patriotic" American?


Hmmmmm?


And why does FauxNews refuse to mention it?


What are they hiding? What is the GOP running from?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 11:55 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I have to say that Raptor's "its better to have dry powder" bit was good.
There aren't many options floating around right now, I do think Obama would win against most if not all of them. I don't even see Palin and Trump as viable since they've had reality shows. And I'm thoroughly unimpressed with the others. At the rate we're going I might as well run. :)

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Trump has completely disappeared since Obama owned his ass at the Correspondents' Dinner, after thoroughly humiliating him with the whole birth certificate thing. While Trump was trying to decide whether to fire Gary Busey or Meat Loaf, he got a close-up look at what a REAL President does: silence his critics, tour a disaster area and get help to the affected people there, zip down to Cape Canaveral to see Gabby Giffords and her astronaut husband, get back to Washington to do some stand-up while eviscerating Trump, all while helping to plan and put in motion an expertly laid-out plan to take out the terrorist who was identified as Public Enemy Number One more than a decade ago, but whom nobody else had ever been able to nail down.

And in between, he relaxed with a few holes of golf, and made it all look easy as pie.

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:51 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I was unaware that Rumsfeld ran for elective office.

Again, you fail, Kwickie. And fail miserably.

( But at least you admit that Saddam WAS a terrorist. I think that's a first for you. )




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Posted by Rappy:


Before, you Left wing zealots could claim 'fear mongering', but no longer. Obama has shown us what / who he is, and y'all can't cover for him any longer. Your lame tactics won't work this time.



Yeah, our "lame tactics" can't keep him from looking presidential. How very devious of him! He's shown us what and who he truly is: the American President, a U.S. citizen, natural-born, and the Commander in Chief. I can't cover for him any more; he's not a revolutionary Mau-Mau at all, just a solid American patriot.

I get that Rappy can't handle that, and it makes his head explode to think of it. I really do get that.

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Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:57 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I was unaware that Rumsfeld ran for elective office.



Then you FAIL, Rappy. And fail miserably. You really should look things up before you post a stupid response. Rumsfeld was elected to the U.S. House four times.



But let's pretend that Rumsfeld never ran for elected office - if it's not an *elected* position, you don't care WHO a President hangs around with, eh?


Tell me, what position in the federal government was Bill Ayers elected to?

Or does it only count if the President is a Democrat? You'd never apply the same standards to your GOP idols that you'd hold a Democrat to.

Rumsfeld was a known associate of Saddam, and Dubya chose him for a cabinet position anyway. Your load of FAIL is that you completely fail to recognize the terrorists your own heroes hang around with. Or are.

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Saturday, May 14, 2011 5:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, dear, I see poor Raptor ran away again.
Quote:

Nothing about Obama's devious,ACTUAL past was 'ginned up', in the least. If anything, the MSM actively ran away from reporting it
Oh, my, you are SO funny! It was played, over and over and over, ad nauseum, during the election! I’d ask what was “devious” about Obama's actual past, but apparently Raptor's lost interest in this one (I wonder why? )

Should we go into some of the righties’ connections for him? Like The Family...Abramoff...Enron...naw, ain’t worth it. He’d just claim they were “patriotic Americans” and it was the left who dragged their names through the dirt. Not worth the effort. Poor soul, must be tough for him, needing to reach all the way back to find something to use against Obama.

Oh, hey, then there’s Ensign, now THERE’s an upstanding American if ever there was one!
Quote:

The Senate Ethics Committee has uncovered extensive evidence that former Sen. John Ensign (R-NV) and others broke U.S. law by trying to cover up an affair Ensign had with a campaign aide, the wife of one of his top Senate staffers.

The panel has forwarded the evidence of criminal activities to the Department of Justice for further investigation, which it is required to do in any investigation that turns up evidence of criminal wrongdoing, Sens. Barbara Boxer (D-CA), who chairs the ethics panel, and Johnny Isakson (R-GA), said in letters to the DOJ and FEC released Thursday along with a final report from a special prosecutor handling the case.

"The committee voted unanimously to refer Senate findings to the Department of Justice and the Federal Election Commission because we have reason to believe that Sen. Ensign violated laws within their jurisdiction," Boxer said in a rare floor speech addressing the committee's usually private proceedings.
The evidence the committee uncovered, was so egregious, Boxer said, that a special counsel assigned to the case was set to recommend expulsion had Ensign not resigned. The potential criminal actions include aiding and abetting the violation of the one-year post-employment lobbying ban, discrimination on the basis of gender, false statements to the FEC and obstruction of justice, among others.

And Newt, who trashed Clinton for his fooling around, while he himself was having an affair at the time! The “family values” candidate is having a bit of trouble with HIS “devious, ACTUAL” past:
Quote:

How big a stumbling block will Newt Gingrich’s three marriages and admission of an affair pose to his efforts to win so-called values voters?

“It’s a huge hurdle,” said Richard Land, the public policy chief for the Southern Baptist Convention, the county’s largest evangelical denomination.

Although religious conservatives are likely to respond to his message, the question for Gingrich is whether they’ll accept the messenger.

Gingrich's first marriage ended after he discussed the details of the divorce with his wife while she was recovering from cancer surgery. He married again in 1981 and was divorced in 2000, when he married the young congressional aide with whom he had had an affair.

Some accused Gingrich of hypocrisy for cheating on his wife around the time the House was impeaching President Bill Clinton for lying about his White House affair with Monica Lewinsky.

Nah, only Democrats have “devious” pasts, that’s the thing to remember. You betcha!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, May 16, 2011 2:09 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I guess his head DID explode, Mike, or he ran away 'cuz he was losing the argument...again. Two days and no response. I can understand that; it's so much easier to toss things out on a whim and not bother to back them up or prove them right, just snark a few times and run away. That seems to be how it always ends up, so again, I ask: Why does anyone engage him? Just wondering...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, May 16, 2011 2:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Kwickie showed the pic of Rumsfeld as he was acting as special envoy, not elected,. Crassic.

And Obama has shown how NOT to look Presidential, all on his own.

- the (Cambridge)police acted stupidly...

- mocking US citizens who want the southern border controlled

- mocking the USSC in the SOTU address...

Childish and petty. That's Obama.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, May 16, 2011 4:19 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Kwickie showed the pic of Rumsfeld as he was acting as special envoy, not elected,. Crassic.



Move the goal posts much?

YOU said that Obama's political career was begun in the living room of a "terrorist". I noted that Rumsfeld's political career shared some similarities, and posted a pic of him hanging out with some unsavory characters.

YOUR counter-argument was that you never realized Rumsfeld ran for any elected office. I pointed out that you're not up on the histories of your heroes, because he in fact DID run for elected office. I didn't imply or state in any way that he ran for office in Iraq, or that Saddam campaigned for him, did I?

I posted a picture of grinning Rummie and grinning Saddam sharing a belly laugh in better days (probably giggling at the thought of Saddam using the weapons we sold him to kill Iranians), merely as proof of what kind of people YOUR heroes are. If you have pictures of Obama and Bill Ayers planting bombs somewhere, or hatching a secret plot to blow up the White House, feel free to post them. I'm sure they'd look quite damning, since you've already said that the mere fact of Obama knowing Ayers is damning enough.

Was Obama actually running for office when he allegedly spoke to Ayers? Had he already filed as a candidate? If not, then your own logic (to paraphrase: "he wasn't running when that pic was taken!") dictates that any such meeting before he ran for office is utterly irrelevant.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, May 16, 2011 6:32 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Hmmmmm ... Maybe I should run ...

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, May 16, 2011 6:46 PM

DREAMTROVE


Guys,

There's important fanfic that needs writing. I can't think that this gets us anywhere.

Neither of you won: Rumsfeld was a GOP Rep in the 1960s, and hardly starting out his career by selling Saddam Hussein WMDs. I actually have a hard time mentally connecting his "Well gosh" to the great evil though, he just seems folksy, even when I see him connected with something untoward. OTOH, Cheney just oozes evil, and he was elected. Years ago someone forwarded the theory that Donald Rumsfeld was a moron and that it was all over his head. I have to consider that possibility. But is it relevant? It's almost like we're arguing McCarthy, (or calling him a democrat on the grounds that he was until 1944) I hope both of you see the minutae that this revolves around and how important it isn't.

If this were dumb enough, allow me to kill it: Arming Saddam Hussein to attack Iran was a policy openly supported by both the Carter and Reagan administrations. That's why Iran/Contra was a scandal: Because we were openly arming Iraq, and covertly arming the other side.

Seriously, it boggles my mind that what used to be news becomes conspiracy theory just because the public is forgetful and becomes ignorant. 1/2 of today's conspiracy theories were yesterday's accepted fact. There's no conspiracy, no theory, and no partisan issue. It was official policy of the US govt. with the open support of both parties.

Are we really going to do this? I mean, who do I go to to find someone to blame for our lack of foresight regarding Cambodia? Can we dredge up that dinosaur of failed policy? Should I blame the democrats for forcing Nixon to withdraw, or should I blame the republicans because Ford wouldn't send aid? Or do I blame the press or the public for rejecting the idea out of hand that we should go *back* to SE: Asia only a year after leaving? Or should I blame the politicians for *assuming* that this is how the people would react? Does anyone even know that the VC in 1975 *asked* the US to return? We could actually go through this to the Nth degree, but what would be the point?

We're not in Iraq because of bad policy of the '70s, we're in Iraq because we won't fucking leave. It's the same thing all over. As soon as we leave, the govt. will call up its other allies, form a coalition of support, etc. just like as soon as we leave Afghanistan it will fragment into tribal states that it has been in for 5,000 years, and as soon as we get out of Pakistan the people will over throw the corrupt Bhutto regime as they have done in the past, in the east, and the west will do the same as Afgh. Without our revolutions across the muslim world, things will return to normal, dictators and kings and the odd democracy will continue on as they always have. Nothing good is going to come of our being there, as nothing good has come of it in the years we've been there, since WWII, or WWI if you count the brits. radical reform has never materialized, and never will.

And lastly, it's no one's fault that we're there. I mean, none of our faults. It wasn't a republican or democratic policy, it wasn't even really an american one. It's been an allied policy for a long time, a pointless one, about money, oil, and control. Time we found our own damn oil, worried about our own damn money and gave up and the stupid crusade.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, May 16, 2011 6:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Well, Riona, the field certainly seems to be wide open.

Huckabee's out. No real surprise, given the way he utterly embarrassed himself with his idiotic claims that Obama was raised in Kenya with the Mau Mau. By which, of coure, he meant INDONESIA. With the Mau Mau, apparently. It only got worse when he tried to explain his accidental-on-purpose "gaffe" by claiming that of course he'd always meant Indonesia - why, he even wrote about it in his book and specifically mentioned Obama's Indonesian childhood on page 183 of his book, he claimed. Except he didn't, on that page or any other page of the book he claimed it was in. Whoopsie. Of course, his association with a complete batshit evangelical who also happens to be one of two women he says he answers to didn't help, either.*

Gingrich might as well be, after repeated flip-flopping on healthcare, RomneyCare, ObamaCare, and the idea of mandates, which he's in favor of, unless Obama is, and then he's against them, unless a Republican proposes them. He's also having some trouble explaining why it would be wrong for Obama to be an "anti-colonialist" in the first place, given Gringrich's supposed reverence for our Founding Fathers, who were, to a man, pretty staunch anti-colonialists. Even fought a war about it, they did. But Gingrich uses it as a smear against Obama - or tries to, anyway.

Trump's out. No surprise there - he all but vanished the day after Obama tore his ass up at the Correspondents' Dinner.

Palin's... well, not in, but not out, either. She's busy calling Obama a pussy for killing Osama (which her hero Bush couldn't do, but which *was* part of the "Bush Doctrine", which Palin couldn't articulate or describe), and reminding us all what a total badass she was when she quit her job rather than deal with uncomfortable questions about her ex-brolo.

Romney's having a tough time after going into visible flop-sweats while trying to apologize and back away from his individual mandate healthcare plan, which he also says was one of his greatest accomplishments, and something he's very proud of, and sorry for.

Herman Cain is still trying to explain his own flip-flopping of his signature position, claiming he would not - no way, no how - even CONSIDER a Muslim for a position in his cabinet or a judgeship, and them rapidly backpedaling to insist that OF COURSE he would consider any Muslim candidates for such positions. Meanwhile, everybody else seems to have forgotten that he even exists; Fox News isn't even telling people he won the debate they wouldn't let anyone else cover or take pictures at, which was hosted and run by Fox pundits.


* http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/05/mike-huckabee-janet-porter-sov
iet-spy


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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