Our President by howdyrockerbaby1

In general I think its a mistake to have the FFF.net become a political forum. There's LOTS of other boards where you can post those topics.

We're all trying to be good browncoats here and help build support for the movie.

But since you ask about 'shrub':

He proposed a piece of legislation called the "Clean Skies Act" that allows more mercury and more pollutants to be dumped into the air than before...

He enacts legislation to protect our forests that mandates MORE logging and MORE clear cutting...

Tries to eliminate overtime pay for hourly workers...

Worked in the Congress to defeat the Kyoto protocol...

Voted against the abolition of land mines....

Refuses to obey the Geneva convention in our completely lawless treatment of Afghan POWs (many American former POWs fear how nations will treat our soldiers in the future because we've invented something called enemy combatants (whatever the f*ck that is)

Over TWO MILLION jobs lost during his tenure...

On average the jobs that have been created during his reign have been for less than 60% of what the work used to be making... (don't just count jobs, count earning power)

Blatantly lied about WMD...

Started a war with Iraq that by any realistic account will make terrorism much, much worse...

AND on top of all that when asked if he's made any mistakes says that he can't think of anything and says that he's under a lot of pressure because its a new conference. Uhmmmm... you're the President - are you saying you can't handle the pressure from the questions of 7 reporters?

This is the leader of the free world?

Oh yeah... I know I've had enuf of the shrub to last me for the rest of my life.

Imagine what will happen if he does manage to get himself re-elected and DOESN'T have to worry about a 3rd term. The gloves will come off and his agenda will become even more right wing and more reactionary.

The members of our armed services (many of the readers of FFF.net fall into that category) are brave, honorable and honest men and woman doing what they've been ordered to do in a very, very dangerous situation. I want to support them by bringing them home ASAP.

Just my $.02

=======================
Mal: "Is there blubber?"

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 10:56 AM

MELEAUX

i think being the leader of the best country in the world lends itself to excessive scrutiny and the old saying of "you can't please all the people all the time" holds truer in this instance than any other.
I must only say that he is sooo much better than what we had before. Clinton was Ewwww at best.
I love my country and I love my president for better or worse.
Now, before you all hang me out to dry I want to say that I love being a browncoat and this is my favorite place to be when I get on line so please don't ruin it for me by going all blue hands on me

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by richardecheandia:
In general I think its a mistake to have the FFF.net become a political forum. There's LOTS of other boards where you can post those topics.

Agree.

Quote:

But since you ask about 'shrub':

He proposed a piece of legislation called the "Clean Skies Act" that allows more mercury and more pollutants to be dumped into the air than before...

Yeah, and they all started dumping it the next day. Never mind that the result is a net reduction in pollutants and the saving of tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs located in older factories that could not afford the millions in costs to retool to meet clean air standards and faced either shut down or movement to Mexico where little things like wages, air pollution, and clean water don't mean squat next to just plain having a job.

Quote:

He enacts legislation to protect our forests that mandates MORE logging and MORE clear cutting...

There is no more clear cutting since inudstry and govt standards mandated the replanting thing. So hello West Virginia, you get to have an economy no longer based soley on Federal Highway funds and the Robert Bird Memorial Incest Clinic and Pork Hatchery.

Quote:

Tries to eliminate overtime pay for hourly workers...

New standards never applied to blue collar workers, only white collar management. But it makes for a nice campaign issue. Still Cleveland School District has a $100 million deficit this year. A fair percentage is janitorial overtime, so maybe we need to take a look at blue collar workers too.

Don't get me wrong, I like overtime. But between overtime and health insurance, if I need to hire someone, I hope I'm close to a border.

Quote:

Worked in the Congress to defeat the Kyoto protocol...

Because the so called protocol only applied to the USA. Also, it makes no sense to priortize the enviroment in this enviroment. Not only are we cleaner then 10 years ago, but it makes no sense to place new burdens on domestic industry at a time when they are already under so much pressure to either fail completely or move to warmer climates.

Quote:

Voted against the abolition of land mines....

And for good reasons. Land mines have been an effective military weapon for decades. Our landmines are not the problem. Now if people die from stepping on them, then I say they are working properly.

I feel bad for unintentional victims, but I'd feel worse if our troops in Korea had to face a North Korean invasion without the landmines along our side of the DMZ. BTW, ever wonder why the mines in Korea are all on our side?

Quote:

Refuses to obey the Geneva convention in our completely lawless treatment of Afghan POWs (many American former POWs fear how nations will treat our soldiers in the future because we've invented something called enemy combatants (whatever the f*ck that is)

Actually this is a sticky issue. The POW's in question are not covered by the conventions because they are not soldiers, served no recognized govt, etc. They most closely resemble pirates, legally that is, not in appearence me hearty...agh, agh, agh.

The issue will soon be decided by the Supreme Court. I think those that served the Taliban should be treated as POWs and eventually returned to their homeland. Although 1 or 2 might need to be 'accidently' sucked through a large jet turbine.

Captured terrorists should be tried as such and given appropriate sentences.

Quote:

Over TWO MILLION jobs lost during his tenure...

On average the jobs that have been created during his reign have been for less than 60% of what the work used to be making... (don't just count jobs, count earning power)

ALGORE could have been in office and it still would have happened. I don't see the economic downturn that started in 1999 waking up to an ALGORE presidency and saying, gee lets not fire anybody today. It was the direct result of 8 years of no energy policy, 3 years of negative pressure on the tech market, 1 year of oral sex, and other factors like the senseless murder of thousands of innocent people in an unprovoked surprise attack by a madman bent on remaking the world in his own twisted image.

I've always wondered about Clinton's last two years in office. It seemed in 1998 like they were setting Gore up to lose the 2000 election or fail if elected.

Quote:

Blatantly lied about WMD...

There was nothing blatent about it. Everybody believed the intelligence, even Saddam. The records make that clear. Even Saddam thought he had more then he really did. France, England, the Pope, James Bond, FOX, Condi Rice, my 90 year old Grandmother, and the Easter Bunny all knew Saddam had something, somewhere. You knew it too.

We were all wrong...maybe. I'd like to take a good look at Syria first, and by God, if I had a Tank Division I'd do it.

Also, If death camps, mass graves, and torture chambers don't justify a war, nothing does.

Some people believe nothing does justify war. I say those people should all be tortured and killed. If they still feel that way, fine. I got dibbs on their stuff.

Quote:

Started a war with Iraq that by any realistic account will make terrorism much, much worse...

Anybody with a sense of history can tell a crucibal when they see one. Afganistan was too remote and inaccessable. Now in Iraq we get terrorists from all over the world. They get in through Syria and Iran. We kill them. We might not ever get them all, but we've gotten a fair share. Thats good strategy. Get your enemy to come to you so you can kill them, with landmines.

Quote:

AND on top of all that when asked if he's made any mistakes says that he can't think of anything and says that he's under a lot of pressure because its a new conference. Uhmmmm... you're the President - are you saying you can't handle the pressure from the questions of 7 reporters?

6 of the first 7 questions were variations on the theme: 'tell us exactly how you've failed the American people'. Thats a pretty harsh and defeatist attitude from a press determined to invent a new Vietnam by this coming November.

Taint gonna happen.

Quote:

This is the leader of the free world?

All American and by God Texas. Now put him on the stage with that French loving New England whore and I know who I'm voting for.

Quote:

The members of our armed services (many of the readers of FFF.net fall into that category) are brave, honorable and honest men and woman doing what they've been ordered to do in a very, very dangerous situation. I want to support them by bringing them home ASAP.

Well said. Very well said.

By the way "ASAP" means "As Soon As Possible" not "Please Mr. Terrorist and France, forgive us for not being on our knees and please allow us to share your world by only killing a few of our own people when you wipe out all the Jews."

In other words ASAP means "When the Job is Done and the World is Safe."

Quote:

Just my $.02

Next time try Euros.

H

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:33 AM

I think he should vacation in Texas more often.

H

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:44 AM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by howdyrockerbaby1:
Who thinks that our President needs to get his butt out of the White House?

I do!!

But, I'd rather him there than Kerry. I'm not voting for either (Libertarian for me), but since I know my party won't win, I hope Bush does.

Quote:
Bush shouldn't have been so cocky as to think that we could fix that entire country all on our own without the help of the UN. Besides, we have our own problems in our country to worry about before we try fixing everybody elses.

Problem is, the UN had no intention of fixing anything. So it was us, or no one at all.
-Steve

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:47 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I think he should vacation in Texas more often.

NO, NO, NO! That makes him too much of a target too close to where I live.

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:54 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
I think he should vacation in Texas more often.

H

I think he should vacation in Faluja. Maybe, Cheney and Rumsfeld could join him.

Seriously, I just think that its pretty sad that in a nation of nearly 300 million, the best we can come up with is Kerry or Bush. Another round of choosing the 'other' of two evils.

The only way this is ever going to change is when we change the way we vote. Plurality voting sucks and reinforces the two party dynasty. Check this out:

http://www.approvalvoting.org/

or this:

http://www.constitution.org/voting/voting.htm

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 11:57 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by richardecheandia:
In general I think its a mistake to have the FFF.net become a political forum. There's LOTS of other boards where you can post those topics.

Disagree, as long as it's in the appropriate area on the forums.

To the rest that you said,

HURRAY, BROTHER!!!

*gives virtual hug*
*virtually kisses both cheeks* (like the French do, eh, nothing sexual here)

I completely agree

And see I also reference a nice quote in my sig

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
"Also, I can kill you with my brain." -River

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Saturday, April 24, 2004 12:23 PM

APEMAN61

I agree with Hero. And by the way SigmaNunki that signature is bad ass.

"Rule of thumb? Maybe it should be rule of wrist."

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 8:19 AM

hmmm.

"He enacts legislation to protect our forests that mandates MORE logging and MORE clear cutting..."

It's about time. We wouldn't have lost my favorite camping spot in the world to fire if this had been done sooner.

"Tries to eliminate overtime pay for hourly workers.."

For folks who make more than 100,000 dollars a year. The overtime rules have been in severe need of revamping for a while.

"worked in the Congress to defeat the Kyoto protocol... "

Thank God! The kyoto accords were about one thing, making the USA pay the rest of the world for every problem they could think of.. not only was this unfair, it was based on junk science. Even if global warming is a fact there is no real compelling proof it's caused by man. The earth has cycled in and out of ice age and warm ages for as long as it has existed. The worst part about 'kyoto' was it tied the hands of the USA and the western world industry and at the same time exempted China and India, two of the worst 'offenders' from any of the regulation.

"Voted against the abolition of land mines...."

Passing this would be like telling our enemies, 'We are not going to use our superior weapons to fight you.. you do what ever you want to do.' Anti-personnel mines are not weapons of mass destruction but if you want to call them that than hey, we found Saddam's supply.

"Refuses to obey the Geneva convention in our completely lawless treatment of Afghan POWs"

This is made up. These captives are being treated fairly. Primarily the ACLU attorneys can't wait to try POW's in civil court so they make a stink. Personally, I'm glad most of these are still in captivity. They'd just be killing and fighting and dying outside. They are not US citizens and we are at war still they belong off shore and in prison until the conclusion of the conflict.

"Over TWO MILLION jobs lost during his tenure..."

and nearly the same number created.. jobs are created all the time. I don't blame Bush for this.. anymore than I blame Clinton for the prosperity of the 90's; they inherited both.

"On average the jobs that have been created during his reign have been for less than 60% of what the work used to be making.."

So what. Clinton jobs were equally reduced.. this is just the fact of new jobs.. they start low and elevate over time.. you don't expect to be making the same amount in 10 years doing one job I hope.

"Blatantly lied about WMD..."

This is a rhetorical dead give away. Sorry but not convinced they weren't any... not convinced they won't eventually show. If Bush lied about these so did Clinton and the UN who both said the same thing as Bush about 'WMD'. Not convinced by the 'he lied' rhetoric at all.

"Started a war with Iraq that by any realistic account will make terrorism much, much worse..."

Does terror get much worse than 9/11? How many times did Saddam have to shoot at our planes before we should have responded? Words and resolutions mean things. To not do what Bush did would be making light of the UN and her resolutions. If it weren't for the USA the UN would be nothing just like the pathetic league of nations that preceded her. Most people recognize that the gulf war never ended. There was a 'stay' set up in a UN resolution.

"This is the leader of the free world?"

Yes, and God help us if that smarmy Kerry takes over. Not only will we be over taxed up to our eyes again but I don't believe we'll see much difference in foreign policy.. this is because Kerry doesn't have any original thought on the subject.

I am behind the troops and heros of the US military that are in harms way fighting for our way of life. I refused to be involved in organized subversion. The left would like to demonize our president and the war effort they say while still 'supporting our troops'. Well Kerry has proven this is impossible. Just look at his inconsistent voting when it comes to our troops in time of war. He's lucky there haven't been more deaths on his head for his lack of support. This is not the man we want at the helm. The left once again fawns all over any liberal candidate they can get.. and Kerry is a boring choice but hey he's as liberal as they come.

The liberals have never forgiven Bush for winning in Florida against a man who was probably the worst candidate running for president in years. The rhetoric now is more about that.. than WMD the war jobs or anything else.

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:07 AM

Doran and Hero:

See - this is exactly why I think its a bad idea to have these discussions here.

I'm not going to get into a point by point discussion with you fine folks (except for the bit about the overtime - how many hourly people make over $100K annual? What a specious argument).

Let's be honest and face the facts: Nothing I say will change your mind. I'm not to sure how you can spin shrub's record to change my mind so let's both save our breath ok?

I will save this about your comments though:

My mom used to call that 'rationalization'.

(ducks and hides)

Have a great day, support democracy, support the right of every American's vote to be truly counted and like you, I'm REALLY looking forward to voting in November.

=======================
Mal: "Is there blubber?"

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 11:32 AM

I've been on a fair few boards that have held political conversation. I'm always struck by the same thing; there are usually only two opinions.

One is: Bush is evil, greedy and stupid! Down with the evil right-wing Republicans!

Another is: Democrats are bleeding heart whiners! We are doing the best to save America, and you should get behind us or you are either stupid, or dangerous. Down with liberals!

Curiously, there never seem to be any mixed views and calm reasoning. But should there be such posts on these boards? YES, there should. Under a section called 'Debate' or 'Politics'. Now more than ever people need to seriously scrutinise everything our leaders, the media, and the people say and do. I don't like the current Republican administration. I think that they believe that they are doing the right thing, but are actually being dangerously short sighted on the subject of foreign affairs, the enviroment and terrorism. I also believe that they should break up some of the big corporations and secure more pay and free health care for those under or near the poverty line. But that's all I'll say on the matter here. I'm an outsider, looking in.

Looking in from the best country in the world, England.

See how annoying that is? Please don't say that. Personally I think that the best country in the world is either New Zealand or... hmm... nope, New Zealand is the best. Despite its bizarre road network. God blesses no country. His mandate is the world. And in a few hundred years, America will be a very different place for good or for ill, see what he thinks then. No one can claim him for themselves.

If you want my views on the subject (other than the little blip that is my considered opinion that you should vote Democrat, and that Clinton's security guards are astonishingly nice people who posed for photos and pretended to arrest students for laughs when he visited Warwick University here in his last month of power) then *gasp* email me at dreaming_lad@yahoo.com or set up a section for threads on political debate.

By putting this under the main section, you are giving Firefly a political bias that it stears clear of. I think that Firefly's politics stem purely from conscience. They are about the little people after all and not governments, politics or ambassadors. I think that it takes the best of Republican history (Lincoln) and the best of Democrat (Roosevelt) in its heart. Flawed but great men. And then it has Lenny Bruce, Bill Hicks, Elmore Leonard and Rod Serling kick them about a bit.

Where was I? The ending with a short outburst of overbearing moral smugness I think. Yes.

Never follow the line that you have to support the incumbant president at a time of crisis. That breeds facism, honestly. Always question even your most beloved party and leader, never follow blindly. And keep a close eye on your troops abroad, pray for them, love them, and be ready to raise your voice if you think they act out of line. We are all human, and humans get scared and make mistakes, succumb to temptation or follow impossible ideals... our collective job is to catch them when they fall.

Thanks for listening, and I request again a new section and thread for this, out of the General Section, and the promotion of further discussion on the matter. Oh, and that we actually LISTEN to opposing views and play devil's advocate whenever we can.

Thanks,

Pete

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 11:40 AM

SUCCATASH

War is hell. Bush has a lot of blood on his hands. All Americans do. I feel ashamed.

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 11:42 AM

RUXTON

Bush lied and people died.

Rather than pick apart the vacuous comments by two windy posters here, anyone who thinks the current occupant of the White House and his minions are good guys (Kerry would not be any better), go immediately to "letsroll911.org" and look at the rocket being fired from the airplane just before it impacts the WTC tower.

The rocket fire is visible on ANY video from ANY and ALL news sources from that day. The other airplane also fired at least one rocket. All that is needed is to slow down any video and watch what happens.

This was while the so-called leader sat on his duff and read a story to school children, while four aircraft had been hijacked.

Bush lied and people died.

.......Ruxton

ps: Check out the heavy hitters who are monitoring that website; and look at the Alexa ratings. Most interesting!

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 11:43 AM

HOWDYROCKERBABY1

Quote:
Originally posted by Doran:

"Started a war with Iraq that by any realistic account will make terrorism much, much worse..."

Does terror get much worse than 9/11? How many times did Saddam have to shoot at our planes before we should have responded? Words and resolutions mean things. To not do what Bush did would be making light of the UN and her resolutions. If it weren't for the USA the UN would be nothing just like the pathetic league of nations that preceded her. Most people recognize that the gulf war never ended. There was a 'stay' set up in a UN resolution.

There has never been any proof that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11, in fact i think there is already proof that he had NOTHING to do with it. and when asked about going to fight Saddam Bush said "well...we know he was dangerous" yeah what else is new! But lets try getting Osama before taking over Iraq for its oil

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"Here's to Jayne, the box dropping man-ape-gone-wrong-thing"
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 11:51 AM

(Spoken in a plummy cockney accent...)

"Hello, Peter here! I've just made a post about how we should rationally consider each other's arguements on another section of the site before leaping to poorly argued, 'X' is good/evil/has good dress sense. I certainly hope that I'm heeded and that any following posts take into account both sides of the story and use proper factual evidence to back up their... (slipping into a raucous Scouse accent) ... AW NO! WHAT 'AVE I DONE? MA WIFE'S GONNA KILL ME!"

One for you 'Reeves and Mortimer' fans out there. All one of you, probably. *Sniff* Now back to our regular broadcasting.

P.S:
(Paraprhased)
Bob Mortimer: "Honestly, that Mel Gibson! He's terrible! He smashed my window the other week with his football, he owes me a fiver for that."
Vic Reeves: "And he owes me a trip to the swimming baths, bus fare and a fish supper."
Bob: "Honestly, Vic, that Mel Gibson, eh?"
(Etc.)

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:09 PM

SOUNDHACK

I don't have time or will to go point by point, but it seems that the reason why people are angry over WMD has been either purposely or inadvertently misrepresented by the Bush supporters. It is irrelevant that "other people" thought Saddam had WMD too. If you will remember, there were UN inspectors in Iraq already, trying to confirm either way Saddam's posession of WMD, precisely because people thought he had them.

The reason why people (including myself) are angry is that Bush didnt even give the inspectors a chance. He was openly contemptuous of the UN and its inspectors (so I can't believe some of the claims of "we attacked Iraq to uphold the legitimacy of the UN"), mostly because they were being methodical and wouldnt bend their statements to make it politically expedient for the US. The inspectors said they needed another month or so, but that wasnt good enough for the administration, they wanted to start the war anyway. If the administration only waited to give the inspectors the time they wanted, I am sure a lot more people would be supportive, and we will really have a coalition in there now.

The reason why people say he lied was because he said Saddam was ABSOLUTELY AN IMMINENT THREAT. Remember the claims that Saddam can attack us within 45 minutes? or Colin Powell's waving of satellite photos saying we have proof of WHERE EXACTLY the WMD are? Those are pretty big lies I think. The administration is now saying that intelligence is never perfect, but if that is the case, why were they making so definite and absolute claims back then?

It is a stretch to say that it is still possible Saddam had WMD, but I think its pretty safe to say it wasnt an imminent threat.

ob Firefly remark: Which political party best reflects "Alliance-like" thinking?

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 12:21 PM

America loves a winner!

The reason why people say he lied was because he said Saddam was ABSOLUTELY AN IMMINENT THREAT
-------------------------------------------------

Actually, Bush never said that. Sadly, the left wing Press isn't doing much to clarify that, and in fact are perpetuating that urban legend.

Bush never lied about the IMMINENT THREAT, and Colin Powell only showed where WMD's WERE, months and years before Saddam moved them.

More than anything, I'm annoyed, no, REALLY PISSED that this topic has come to this thread. A million places on the net and everywhere else folks can make their views known on politics.

For the record, I voted Libertarain in 2000. I plan on voting for Bush in 2004. That's all I got to say about that.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:04 PM

SOUNDHACK

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The reason why people say he lied was because he said Saddam was ABSOLUTELY AN IMMINENT THREAT
-------------------------------------------------

Actually, Bush never said that. Sadly, the left wing Press isn't doing much to clarify that, and in fact are perpetuating that urban legend.

Bush never lied about the IMMINENT THREAT, and Colin Powell only showed where WMD's WERE, months and years before Saddam moved them.

More than anything, I'm annoyed, no, REALLY PISSED that this topic has come to this thread. A million places on the net and everywhere else folks can make their views known on politics.

For the record, I voted Libertarain in 2000. I plan on voting for Bush in 2004. That's all I got to say about that.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Another thing the press (nor the administration) isnt clarifying is the lack of link between Al Qaeda and 9/11 with Iraq, so I dont agree that the press is predominantly left wing. Some people still believe that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and no one in the administration seems interested in clarifying that "urban legend"

Bush never specifically said the words "imminent threat" but now we are getting into parsing words, just like with "is" and Clinton. I think taking Bush's speeches and the comments of other officials (notably Cheney and Rumsfeld) it can't be helped if people get the impression that the administration thought that Saddam was an imminent/immediate/grave/whatever threat.

How do you explain not giving the UN inspectors enough time to complete their mission? Yes, Saddam was being evasive and uncooperative. But the UN inspectors didnt give up saying they can't make any progress, they said they were making (slow) progress) and they just wanted more time.

As for Colin Powell, his satellite images are
from Mar~Dec 2002 (definitely "months" but not "years" before the attack), and shows not only historical artifacts (where WMD were) but then current spikes in activity, from trucks (supposedly carrying wmd) moving in and out to repavings/etc.

Hmm if you are so pissed about this thread then no one is forcing you to respond, or even read it. I think it's still a free country, and unless the FFF webadmin objects then I think it's still fair game, as long as we don't resort to name-calling and disrespectful behavior.

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 1:34 PM

INSIGHT SPINNER

As any true browncoat knows, both them parties are Alliance.

Okay, I should know better, but it's no different then Mal in an Alliance-friendly bar on U-Day.

insight spinner
__________

Just an object. It doesn't mean what you think....

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:01 PM

America loves a winner!

It's nothing remotely like Clinton's parsing of words at all. Bush said BEFORE the threat became imminant, something should be done. Once you see the smoke from the gun, it's already been fired. Sadly, many in the press ( which is indisputably left wing ) decided to run w/ what he DIDN'T say. Just like the 'warnings' that went unheeded for yrs about al qaida. AFTER 9-11, we could no longer afford to turn a deaf ear to what we already knew to be a threat.

The UN inspectors were given 12 yrs. More accuratly, Saddam was given 12 yrs to comply. He didn't. Resolution 1441 was passed. It's a moot point now.

WMD's are very mobile and easy to hide. Why are we still talking about this?

All I'm doing is voicing my opinion that this forum isn't the place for politics. So I'm done w/ this now. G'day.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:02 PM

America loves a winner!

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:38 PM

Um, only the French could come up with that wacked a conspiracy theory. What kind of a loser thinks an airliner could be fitted with missles? I've heard some really wacked theories but this one takes the cake. It's also interesting to note that liberal thought could go that far to the extreme of their hatred. I would think it was in jest if it wasn't in such bad taste.

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:52 PM

"Bush didnt even give the inspectors a chance"

They had 14 months from the utimatum given by the UN... and 12 years before that..

"he lied was because he said Saddam was ABSOLUTELY AN IMMINENT THREAT."

A threat I believe he was. If for no other reason that he was shooting at our planes daily. He thumbed his nose at the UN. The only time he ever cooperated with the UN was when the USA had troop camped on his borders and even that was grudging. What should we have done, camped there for years while Blix and his crew let Saddam and his goons run circles around them? He was under a stay of hostilities that stipulated full cooperation which he never gave. The action against him was overdue as shown by all the mass graves and torture room found so far. To say that he was a imminent threat may have been an slight exaggeration.. but then again it could have been spot on... we may never know.

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Sunday, April 25, 2004 3:01 PM

"Another thing the press (nor the administration) isnt clarifying is the lack of link between Al Qaeda and 9/11 with Iraq, so I dont agree that the press is predominantly left wing."

I disagree.. I think the administration made a good case for Al Qaida having been there and Al Qaida is certainly there now. It's not important to tie Saddam directly to the 9/11 attack.. the world knows he very publically sponcered Hamas and others with money gained from illegal commerce from 'oil for food' with France and Russia.

Most liberals that I know don't think the press is predominantly left wing either... I have to concider the source.. because what I see watching them is very liberally biased in presentation and in content.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 6:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by richardecheandia:

See - this is exactly why I think its a bad idea to have these discussions here.

Sure. You raise numerous concerns and can't face a point by point reply. I understand. You MUST turn away, because liberal ideals and the irrational hate certain people feel for Bush cannot hold up under reasonable scrutiny. Thats why Bush is leading in the polls.

Quote:
I'm not going to get into a point by point discussion with you fine folks (except for the bit about the overtime - how many hourly people make over $100K annual? What a specious argument).

You can't get into a point by point discussion. You can't even acknowledge the President's given name.

As for the overtime. You obviously don't work as a Cleveland School District Janitor. Ahh, Cleveland schools. Last year a massive tax increase, this year a $100 million dollar debt. Glad I live in the suburbs, with a Republican Mayor.

Quote:
Let's be honest and face the facts:

Boy are you in the wrong party.

Quote:
Nothing I say will change your mind. I'm not to sure how you can spin shrub's record to change my mind so let's both save our breath ok?

President Bush has done a fine job. I don't have to spin his record to change your mind. You already agree with me. That's why liberals are so angry. They hate Bush and the better the country does, the more anger they feel. Thats why so many have sought to dehumanize him by calling him 'shrub' and 'Dubyah'. Same kind of people used the 'N' word as an expression of hate fifty years ago and 'Slick Willy' in the last administration.

Quote:
My mom used to call that 'rationalization'.

She was a wise woman. You should have listened closer. I bet she told you name calling and hate mongering were bad things also.

Quote:
(ducks and hides)

Ah, so you are planning to vote for Kerry and his French approach to the war on terror.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NervousPete:
I've been on a fair few boards that have held political conversation. I'm always struck by the same thing; there are usually only two opinions.

One is: Bush is evil, greedy and stupid! Down with the evil right-wing Republicans!

Another is: Democrats are bleeding heart whiners! We are doing the best to save America, and you should get behind us or you are either stupid, or dangerous. Down with liberals!

Curiously, there never seem to be any mixed views and calm reasoning. But should there be such posts on these boards?

No. Being middle of the road only gets a person run over.

Ok, here's a mixed view for you:

"Bush is evil, greedy and stupid! Democrats are bleeding heart whiners! We are doing the best to save America, and you should get behind us or you are either stupid, or dangerous."
---Now thats the America I know and love.

Oh, and down with liberals.

H

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Monday, April 26, 2004 6:43 AM

GHOULMAN

Some things I know...

America declared a 'War on Terrorism' as if terrorism was another country. It isn't. A war against 'evil' is like a war against the sea. This is just Windmills and the entire world knows it.

America is the aggressor in the world.

America broke it's own laws to go to war.

America lied to it's own people to go to war.

America lied to the world to go to war.

America ignored the entire international community as well as the largest worldwide protests in HISTORY to go to war.

America killed tens of thousands of innocents in Iraq.

America is now, more than ever before (if that's possible for such a paranoid people), a nation of fear.

America (including Kerry) has changed it's policy towards Palistine and has declared it's OK to steal land and kill people in Gaza and the West Bank.

America is drafting again.

American aggression is the number one worry in recent European polls. Imagine what the Asian polls are like!

American soldiers in Iraq will pay the highest price for American pride. They always have.

Oh, and by America I mean the White House. But hey, you get the country you voted for... oh wait.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 7:30 AM

NERVOUSPETE:

Thanks for taking the tone of the conversation to a new (and in my opinion) better level.

I agree with what I believe is your sentiment. Very little intelligent, considered debate. Mostly two groups standing on either side of a ditch railing against each other.

Unfortunately, the reason I believe that is shown in my previous post. Very few people will change their minds about these things. Most people's minds are made up already. Either side can quote statistics, or the facts as we perceive them (for a great example of the bogusity of the assertion 'never claimed "Immediate Threat" check out http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/
), quote chapter and verse of law, proposed law or even quote directly from a person's documented speaches and still, very few folks will really reconsider their position.

One thing though NervousPete. RockerBaby's original post was something along the lines of 'who thinks our president needs to get out of the white house' (please excuse the paraphrase if I got it wrong.) That's an inherently 2 sided debate. You do, or your don't so its not surprising its turned into Kerry vs Bush (or more likely Franken vs Limbaugh).

If the question was more nuanced like:

What's the best way to extracate ourselves from Iraq?

How should American decide to go to war?

Does America need its allies any more?

What qualities are most imporant in a president?

How impeachable are bl*wjobs in the oval office?

THEN it might have been a more multi-faceted debate with a wider range of opinions. Maybe that's what's missing from political debate in American these days. Sigh....

BTW: Hero - you can stop now, I'm not going to take the bait.

Have a wonderful day every one.

And don't forget to vote.

=======================
Mal: "Is there blubber?"

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Monday, April 26, 2004 7:47 AM

LOKISINCE89

OK, I am going to guess that you are relatively young, politically inexperienced and have not studied the US Constitution, US History or the European Age of Enlightenment in any serious venue.

1) President Bush clearly elucidated 5 reasons for ending the cease-fire (for that is all the past 11 years have been - Check UN documents, the war never ended. A) WMD in violation of UN resolutions and Saddam's own agreement to the cease fire. B) Connections w/ and funding of terrorista and there activities. See bounties paid to Homocide bombers in Isreal. C) Continued cease-fire violations as Saddam daily targeted US jets patrolling the no fly zone, and fired upon said jets. D) Failure to comply with UN resolution 1441 E) HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS. Saddam's tyrannical regime was responsible for the deaths of over a million Iraqis - Kurds, Shi'ites Marsh Arabs and anybady who annoyed him.

Now, to put the two presidential candidates into terms you will understand - Bush is Mal - browncoat fighting for freedom from tyranny for himself and for all humans. Kerry is that Alliance Chode who captures Serenity after it is hit by Reavers. He knows how to run your life better than you do. The UN should form US foreign policy, not the US. He does what is politically expedient not what is morally correct.

Finally, your assertion that much of the information attributed to Kerry by the Bush/Cheney campaign is ten years old is half correct/ half misleading. Yes, when Kerry first supported a $.50 a gallon tax increase was 10 or so years ago. However, it is one of the few issues he has not flip-flopped on. I think if you would get your news from someplace other than "The Daily Show", comedians and network news casts, you may be surprised. I also recommend you read the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, Wealth of Nations and TownHall.com columnists regularly.

Or, you can simply remember - Allience = UN and liberals, Browncoats =America/ Conservatives!

ELBO

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Monday, April 26, 2004 8:22 AM

Uhmm... just a small reality check here...

Isn't Mal opposed to the government that's currently in power?

=======================
Mal: "Is there blubber?"

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Monday, April 26, 2004 8:25 AM

MILORADELL

What never fails to amaze me, is how the same set of facts always wind up telling different stories, depending on who's using them. It's all in the spin - what you leave in, and what you leave out.

Speaking of facts, has anyone actually read the Kyoto Accords? Or have we read what others have said about it? I went looking, and I couldn't find the actual document anywhere. All I could find is what others have written about it. But then - maybe I didn't try hard enough (?).

Personally, I know the effect this administration has had on the lives and rights of women, and I won't be voting for Bush.

__________
Ok - I just re-read the above, about voting - ha!!! That's funny! We can't alll be PC allll the time

.

****
Go run your little world.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 8:46 AM

SUCCATASH

Quote:
Originally posted by lokisince89:
Bush is Mal...

That's crazy talk. Mal is neither a foreign invader nor is he a country raper.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 8:49 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

Our president? - YOUR president-

I love Bush right now - the American Dollar is worth nothing so I'm going on spending sprees on eBay and Amazon practicly every night - I'm getting expensive stuff for like half the price!

Four more years please - can you imagine what he'll do if he doesn't even have a re-election hanging over him (I mean Chaney can hardly run).
He's going to go nuts! - No health system - butcher the enviroment - big tax cuts for the rich - Big $$$ contracts for all his friends -

America will be in such a hole I'll buy a big ass house there for nothing and move in just as the American people stop acting like naieve children and start making they're country great again!

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Monday, April 26, 2004 8:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by richardecheandia:
If the question was more nuanced like:

What's the best way to extracate ourselves from Iraq?

1. Leave
2. Kill all the terrorists and make Iraq the first stable Arab democracy.

I choose number 2.

Quote:

How should American decide to go to war?

We use a little something called the United States Constitution. It says Congress decides to go to war. The President can deploy troops and conduct reprisal raids and strikes, but cannot make an ultimate policy of war without Congressional approval.

For example, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the US Congress voted to declare war on Japan. Before the conflict in Iraq, in both 1991 and 2002, Congress voted to authorize the use of force to compel Iraqi compliance with UN resolutions.

Quote:
Does America need its allies any more?

Yes. England, Spain, Italy, Poland, Thailand, Spain, Australia, Bulgaria (glad their President wasn't hurt today), Albania, The Dominican Republic, etc, etc.

No. France, Germany, Belgium, Russia, Canada, the UN, and any other country that allows its foriegn policy to be dictated by those who were skimming billions from Iraq's Oil for Food Program or selling them weapons in violation of international sanctions, or who President was Saddam's best friend in the '70s and '80s. Really just France. To the liberals the whole world is French.

Quote:

What qualities are most imporant in a president?

Balls. Big American Balls. And this is not about having a man or a woman President. Its attitude.

Quote:

How impeachable are bl*wjobs in the oval office?

Its the perjury and obstruction of justice that he was impeached for. Clinton could have refused to answer or refused to obey the court's order to be deposed, but he didn't so he was liable for his answers.

Quote:

BTW: Hero - you can stop now, I'm not going to take the bait.

Then I have already won.

H

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:06 AM

MILORADELL

Quote:
Then I have already won.

H

Won what?? You guys playing foosball or something?

****
Go run your little world.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:08 AM

BIBSY

Quote:
Originally posted by lokisince89:
Now, to put the two presidential candidates into terms you will understand - Bush is Mal - browncoat fighting for freedom from tyranny for himself and for all humans. Kerry is that Alliance Chode who captures Serenity after it is hit by Reavers. He knows how to run your life better than you do.

Or, you can simply remember - Allience = UN and liberals, Browncoats =America/ Conservatives!

There's a slight problem with your analogy in that the show's creator doesn't see it that way. Here's what Joss Whedon had to say about Mal's politics in the New York Times Magazine in September 2002:

"Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life.' And sometimes he's wrong -- because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese."

"Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?"

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:09 AM

Thanks 'RICHARDECHEANDIA', you have restored some of my faith in this thread for your calm response. Don't agree with ALL your points in one of your posts but, *Phew*, good man!

Bibsy! Thank you! What a great quote, I didn't know that, but I suspected it to be the truth. You are a funky skillo person.

Of all the crew on Serenity, only two have voiced their political alleigance (by episode 8, haven't gotten further than that yet. Eep!). Zoe and Mal. Ianora was/is Alliance. We don't know how Kaylee, Book, Simon, River and Wash feel. Some of them may share the ideals of the Alliance, but of course hate their techniques. Jayne is Jayne, and he-larious.

Whatever you believe, don't apply Firefly's sides to the political divide. That's making obvious villains or incompetents out of a party or a people who share a belief. You do that, you have a one party system. It is getting disturbingly apparent that some people feel that only the Republican/Democrat view can prevail and holds any honour, sense or decency in it. What that translates as, is: Only Party and View 'X' can ever wield power. There can never be an alternative to Party and View 'X'. We must not stop until everyone is convinced of the wisdom of Party and View 'X'.

Instead of say, arguing by a system of ideas and solutions, rather than blind faith, paranoia and triumphalism.

NEVER assume that your party is the greater and must win at all costs. That breeds fascism. Seriously. A totally Democratic America is bad. A totally Republican America is bad. There has to be an equal balance, a chance for ALL views to be heard and considered, for both plans for peace and prosperity to be attempted. Without that choice and debate, the rebels spilled their blood without reason. When you shout down a man or woman who disagrees with you, when you insult them for their beliefs, when you slap down their arguement and dismiss it with a catchy phrase or glib comment - you do all those who died for freedom a disservice, here and throughout the rest of the world.

Atticus Finch (To Kill A Mockingbird - required reading) said that to get to know someone and their ideas, you first had to walk around in their shoes. Empathy and and understanding are powerful tools, use them.

And by the way, I am English, and I feel very strongly about America. You kicked our arses back in 1776, but we look to you to find your way to the first true ideal of a country. Even though we are cynics and disagree with you frequently, even though we laugh at you and mock you, we secretly are fascinated by you and want you to become something as noble as your heroes wanted it to be, badly. And cheers for putting yourselves on the line in World War II.

And never dismiss me as a liberal. God, that really annoys me.

The Alliance are not Republicans. The Alliance are not Democrats. They are any party that ever sought to bully dissenting opinions into keeping silent. They are any party who thought that the world should act just as they did. Joss Whedon doesn't project his political beliefs into them, only his natural dread of overwhelming systems that crush the individual - something that both Democrats and Republicans do with aplomb.

And I don't agree with Nader either, so don't try to get me that way either!

Pete

P.S: I voted for the third party, the Liberal Democrats over here. Liberalism used to mean something substantially different to the derogatory use it enjoys today in slanging matches. Orwell warned of the co-option of language as a political weapon. To use such terms as 'right-wing neo-con' and 'bleeding heart liberal' is to destroy democracy and make little Kaylee cry.

Look, little Kaylee is crying. You have poked her in the idealistic eye with your political stick of angry sharpness. Don't cry, Kaylee! Don't cry!

P.P.S:

Hero: "Sure. You raise numerous concerns and can't face a point by point reply. I understand. You MUST turn away, because liberal ideals and the irrational hate certain people feel for Bush cannot hold up under reasonable scrutiny. Thats why Bush is leading in the polls."

Hero, I say again, post me your beliefs to my email addy dreaming_lad@yahoo.com and I shall read them and respond point by point. You can retort in kind. We will both refrain from insulting each other or calling each other French. But ONLY email if you are SERIOUS about intelligent and polite DEBATE. If you feel you wouldn't believe anything I'd say, and that my opinions are worthless, because I am on balance against THIS specific Republican administration, then don't bother. And if you dare call me French I will bop you on the head with a cardboard tube. (English = natural enemies of the lovably fashionable French, and vice versa)

P.P.P.S: Read at least two politically different newspapers to win this game.

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:22 AM

STEVE580

Ghoulman - dude, over half of the "facts" you posted were just blatently wrong...you can't just write stuff and state it as truth.

Quote:
A war against 'evil' is like a war against the sea.

That's true...the sea *is* evil! Invading our shores, killing civilians...to WAR!

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:27 AM

Pete,

Wow - you just made my day. What a worthy response. I'm at work and don't have time to post in detail but let me say "Thank You".

As a Brit I don't know how well you know US media. I do the next best thing to reading two politically different newspapers:

I listen to NPR (National Public Radio) in the morning and I listen to Rush Limbaugh in the afternoon.

(I probably should confess that I listen to Rush more for amusement than information).

Thx again for a calm considerate debate.

=======================
Mal: "Is there blubber?"

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:34 AM

LOKISINCE89

Mal opposed Allience - What do you think the UN is and what do you think it wants to do?

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:38 AM

"Aieee!" (Hurls self out of window)

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:40 AM

HANS

Quote:
Originally posted by Bibsy:
"Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life.' And sometimes he's wrong -- because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese."

"Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?"

What a great quote, and typical of Joss's insight. I'm glad (and not surprised) that he recognized the moral ambiguity of his characters. Imagine the kind of stories that could have emerged from this if only the show had continued. I always thought it would be great to have the characters come face-to-face with their actions, to force them realize that just because the Alliance is (mostly) bad doesn't mean what they are doing is always good.

It reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Unforgiven, where the whole myth of the noble outlaw and vigilantism is utterly destroyed. By the end, Clint Eastwood's character, set-up to seem like a typical good guy outside the law at the beginning, is without a doubt a villain. Of course, there are those who don't quite get the message, like some of the anti-government rednecks who seem to think Mal is some kind of poster child for the NRA...

(And not to be too anal, but Firefly is watched by many people outside the US. Heck, two of the actors (Nathan and Jewel) are Canadian, like me. Love for Joss and Firefly goes around the world. So maybe this thread should have been titled something other than "our president". Just being picky.

)

Hans

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Monday, April 26, 2004 9:53 AM