REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Heeere it comes -- GOP's hidden debt-deal agenda: Gut the EPA

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 11:51
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VIEWED: 1307
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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 6:43 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Surprise, surprise!
Quote:

It was lost in the endless drama of the debt-ceiling negotiations, but last week, the Republicans in charge of the House of Representatives launched an unprecedented attack on the U.S.'s environmental protections. GOP Representatives added rider after rider to the 2012 spending bill for the Environmental Protection Agency and the Interior Department, tacking on amendments that would essentially prevent those agencies — charged with protecting America's air, water and wildlife — from doing their jobs.

Last week's riderfest wasn't unusual for the 112th U.S. Congress. Representatives Henry Waxman and Edward Markey — two senior Democrats with solid green credentials — recently charted all the votes taken so far this year and calculated that the Republican-led House has voted to "stop," "block" or "undermine" efforts to protect the environment 110 times since January. As Natural Resources Defense Council president Frances Beinecke wrote recently, this body of lawmakers stands an excellent chance of becoming "the most anti-environment House of Representatives" in U.S. history.

To which you might react: Well, duh. In recent years the Republican Party has defined itself as staunchly anti-EPA and generally anti–environmental protection. Whether that means opposing legislation to curb climate change or new rules to promote energy-efficient lightbulbs, if it can be considered green, then the majority of the GOP is almost always against it. That antigreen ideology has only been stiffened by the rise of the Tea Party, and Republican presidential candidates on the campaign trail are fighting to see who can come across as more hostile to environmental regulations.

So Newt Gingrich — who once wrote a book called A Contract with the Earth, all the way back in 2007 — and Tea Party favorite Michele Bachmann have both called for abolishing the EPA, while Mitt Romney has come under intense criticism from the likes of Rush Limbaugh for daring to admit that man-made climate change might just actually exist. Sarah Palin summed up the prevailing GOP attitude when she had this to say while attending a motorcycle rally at the start of her recent cross-country bus tour: "I love the smell of emissions." {Oh, how I wish she could breathe nothing BUT for a while!}

But it hasn't always been this way. The surprising truth is that the extreme political polarization of environmental and energy issues is actually a relatively recent phenomenon. There have long been prominent conservatives who proudly called themselves conservationists back in the days when Republicans for Environmental Protection — an actual political group, founded in 1995 — wasn't an oxymoron. Theodore Roosevelt — who has a strong claim as the greenest President in U.S. history — helped create major national parks and launched the U.S. Forest Service. Richard Nixon created the EPA and signed the Clean Air and Clean Water Acts. George H.W. Bush signed the landmark 1990 amendment to the Clean Air Act and supported a cap-and-trade program that successfully fought acid rain. Even George W. Bush, a product of the Texas oil patch, created the world's largest marine protected area when he established the Papahanaumokuakea Marine National Monument off Hawaii.

Of course, the hard-core Republican Party of today doesn't resemble Roosevelt's or the elder Bush's. Among the 40 riders the knee-jerk antienvironmentalists of the House GOP produced last week:

• A rider that would prevent the EPA from issuing any regulations on greenhouse-gas emissions over the next year — despite the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled the agency has the responsibility to regulate those emissions as a public-health threat under the Clean Air Act.

• A rider that would stop the EPA from carrying out tough new automobile-fuel-efficiency standards that were announced last week — standards that have the support of all the major automakers.

• A rider that would prevent the EPA from labeling the toxic ash left over from coal combustion as hazardous waste — something that would no doubt alarm the people of Kingston, Tenn., buried by a coal-ash spill in 2008.

The good news for environmentalists is that with the Democrats still in charge of the Senate, those riders are unlikely to remain in the final EPA-Interior spending bill. Indeed, these demands were less about actual policy than about making a political point.

And that's exactly the problem. According to Markey and Waxman's rundown of 110 antienvironment votes made by the House so far this year, on average, 97% of Republican members voted for the antigreen positions, while 84% of Democrats supported the progreen position. As long as that massive chasm exists — and as long as Republicans view anything green as an ideological threat — we have no chance of crafting meaningful political action on long-term challenges like climate change or energy. More at http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2086421,00.html

I don't know why they left out LBJ (maybe because he wasn't a Republican). I didn't like the man, but he was VERY active on the environment:
Quote:

Growing up in the Scenic Texas Hill Country, Lyndon B. Johnson developed a deep appreciation and respect for nature and the land. This love of the natural land was something that President Johnson shared with his wife, Lady Bird Johnson. Over the years they watched the country change from an agrarian society to an industrialized nation with lasting problems that threatened the health of the environment. As president, Lyndon B. Johnson felt that it was his responsibility to take action not only to clean up the natural environment but to protect the natural heritage of America. During his administration, President Johnson signed over 300 conservation measures into law, forming the legal basis of the modern environmental movement.
Quote:

There is no excuse for a river flowing red with blood from slaughterhouses. There is no excuse for paper mills pouring sulfuric acid into the lakes and the streams of the people of this country. There is no excuse—and we should call a spade a spade—for chemical companies and oil refineries using our major rivers as pipelines for toxic waste. There is no excuse for communities to use other people’s rivers as a dump for their raw sewage.
Lyndon B. Johnson
Water Quality Act of 1965

President Johnson was the first President of the United States to sign acts concerning Clean Air and Water Quality. These acts established government authority and responsibility to act forcefully against air and water pollution. They also provided money for research on pollution, set standards for air and water quality, and vehicle inspections, emissions, pollutions and fuel additives and alternatives. In spite of larger populations, air pollution in the United States has been reduced by 50 million tons since 1970. http://www.nps.gov/lyjo/planyourvisit/upload/EnvironmentCS2.pdf]

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 8:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Bumping slightly for DT, also:

Quote:

• A rider that would stop the EPA from carrying out tough new automobile-fuel-efficiency standards that were announced last week — standards that have the support of all the major automakers.


That's pretty dumb. Wasting fuel only benefits oil companies, that sell more of it, but undermines US energy concerns and possibly security concerns.

Can't have it both ways, folks. Consider that an indication of where hearts and values really lie on this.

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Wednesday, August 3, 2011 8:45 AM

DREAMTROVE


Secret?

I thought it was painted in 30 foot high letters on the lawn of GOP headquarters


ETA: Byte, yes, of course.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 9:10 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Secret?

I thought it was painted in 30 foot high letters on the lawn of GOP headquarters

Prize for the first giggle of the day.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


We should also add the Depts of Education and Energy to the hit list.

( OMG OMG! I said 'hit' !! That suggests assassination, and killing ! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! )

If this is anything like the 'cuts' in the Pell Grant $, then we're still doomed.

There are no cuts. More $ is being spent than before, and will continue being spent. Not less.


More lies and distortions from the Left.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 10:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


As usual, Raptor, You have nothing to say worth paying attention to, so I don't.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Thursday, August 4, 2011 11:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



And yet you replied to my post, so I know you know I said said something...





" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 1:11 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

And yet you replied to my post, so I know you know I said said something...



That was ALMOST in English, Rappy.


D-minus, but keep trying.

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 8:14 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Uh oh, that sounds problematic. If we don't take care of the earth then it won't take care of us.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, August 4, 2011 11:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Uh oh, that sounds problematic. If we don't take care of the earth then it won't take care of us.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya



The Earth doesn't need another bloated, ineffectual federal bureaucracy to take care of it. Hell, WE don't even need another bloated ineffectual federal bureaucracy.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, August 5, 2011 1:16 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

America doesn't another bloated ineffectual government agency to defend her, she has the militlary.



There, fixed that for ya.

Seriously though, if it were ineffectual, no one would be pushing so hard to get rid of it. To attack the environment is really unpopular, so you actually have to bribe a corrupt politician quite a bit to do so. This costs the industry money. The EPA doesn't particularly cost the industry money, because its budget is relatively small, runs off tax dollars, and enegy companies basically don't pay income tax. In fact, they get subsidies.

The only reasln tl get rid of the EPA is the same as the only reasln tl get rkd lf the military: you were planning an attack, and you ddin't want anyone defending.

Remove the conspiracy from 9-11 conspiracy for a second,
Why was the response so inadequate? Because no one was there defending. Why was no one defending? Because they were conveniently out of town. I don't personally buy that the interceptors et al were incompetent, I think they weren't there because someone had ordered them out of the way. Similarly with building security. Who that was isn't important, for the sake of the simple argument:

Last time your country was attacked, this is what happened.


See, that's something of an issue.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC, you're charged with defending this country to which end our tax dollars pay you. At any rate, you have espoused this as a very important mission on many occasions.

Now, right now, your country is under attack.

This is something of an issue as well.

I live in New York and I now know more people killed by fracking than killed on 9.11.

(A local girl who I knew was just killed by fracking, and another local girl I didn't was just killed in the war, but I don't personally know anyone killed in the war.)

But taking aside the deaths of those shot will trying to capture Afghanistan (Face it, if you were an Afghan instead of a Georgian, you'd be defending afghanistan right now.)

Which doesn't bother me at all, it's that you're NOT defending America. Somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred times as many WMDs have been used on America since 2009 as Saddam Hussein ever had (I do grant that he had them, I think he used most of them on the Kurds and Iran.)

Chemical weapons used on America are used by foreign and international companies under the auspices of looking for methane gas micropockets. I'm certain this is not the case, they are looking for macro pockets, to mine, extract, and ship overseas, but these people have less credibility than anyone I've ever met, seen or heard of. Truly.

Also worth mentioning, the chemical weapons used serve no demonstrable purpose other than to kill american, which I assume is in part, the goal.

It's more of the same attack on America as mountaintop removal: more explosives were used on the united states to level her into rubble during this war than have been used on iraq and afghanistan.

If you point is that the EPA isn't doing its job, then go kick its ass into shape. But recognize that it is not an enforcement agency, it's the eco equivalent of military intelligence. It was the EPA that told us what "Corexit" actually was, which they did by analyzing it in labs, because BP wouldn't frickin tell them. But frankly,I prefer this sort of analysis to trusting the word of someone attacking America.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, August 5, 2011 4:46 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Thank you, DT. Well said. Not that it will have ANY impact on the person to whom it's addressed, but it's an eloquent corollary for the rest of us.

Raptor, of course I know you "said said" something (thanx Mike!), I can see your avatar quite clearly, thank you. I just don't READ your post, or if I bother, just read and laugh. Sorry, your desperate need for attention gets no food here.

You see,




Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, August 5, 2011 11:41 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki

You know, by admitting that you read / notice my posts, but ignore the substance of what I'm saying, other than snarking on irrelevant typos, you're freely admitting that you're the troll here, and not I.

Funny.

When you feel the need to grow up ( lord knows , you've grown older ) and are comfortable with having a big person conversation, sans the childish emoticons and silly name calling... I'll be here. As always.




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Friday, August 5, 2011 12:04 PM

DREAMTROVE




And yet, Rap, you sort of make her point by arguing with her instead of reading my post.

Other thread also.

I mean, sure, if sharia law were about to be instituted int the state of Georgia, islamic extremists would be a threat, but they're not. OTOH, mountaintop removal, fracking, and intentional chemical contamination from the gulf of mexico to the great lakes are threats to america. Threats already killing the beauty of this country, and the people.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, August 6, 2011 10:34 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Had to check out what he wrote, since you mentioned it, DT. I got as far as "reading my posts", which was sufficient. No, I don't, Raptor; I see QUOTES from you in other people's posts, and find them amusing. You, not so much. I'm here to mock you and remind others exactly what your game is. As for you or anything you might post to me, just remember:

and

oh shit, where DID I put my

p.s. Everything you said, DT, in SPADES!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:30 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

And yet, Rap, you sort of make her point by arguing with her instead of reading my post.



DT, how do I make her point, at all ? I've contributed directly to this thread, first. Then she perpetually chimes in that she's not reading my posts ( she is ) and goes on and on and on w/ this childishness of posting 'troll be gone' and similar inanities... for what purpose ? Her repeating that I'm a troll, when it's clear that I'm not, doesn't in the least bit make it true. Many of my views differ from hers, and that makes me a troll ? And that pretty much does sum up the foundation for the animosity directed towards me. I have my views, I can back them up, and am fully confident in them. Can my views be changed ? Sure, given facts which make the case. No problem. But that's not the point here. Niki ( and others ) can't accept that I think a certain way, so in their minds, I'm a " troll ". Kinda funny, actually. But also not.

Frankly, she comes off a bit like a crazy person, cowering in the corner of her padded cell, in her mental hospital issue gown, making crazy symbols with her hands, trying to ward off the light that's coming in through the window.

It's gone from comical to down right sad, seeing her go on and on and on w/ this mindless act of hers.

Hey lady, give it a rest. You'll be in a better mental place.

( certainly can't be worse )


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Sunday, August 7, 2011 2:59 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

DT, how do I make her point, at all ? I've contributed directly to this thread, first. Then she perpetually chimes in that she's not reading my posts ( she is ) and goes on and on and on w/ this childishness of posting 'troll be gone' and similar inanities... for what purpose ? Her repeating that I'm a troll, when it's clear that I'm not, doesn't in the least bit make it true. Many of my views differ from hers, and that makes me a troll ? And that pretty much does sum up the foundation for the animosity directed towards me. I have my views, I can back them up, and am fully confident in them. Can my views be changed ? Sure, given facts which make the case. No problem. But that's not the point here. Niki ( and others ) can't accept that I think a certain way, so in their minds, I'm a " troll ". Kinda funny, actually. But also not.



How does any of that differ in any substantial way from how you treat those who disagree with you?

You've called me a troll more than a few times, as you've done to others as well, all because they disagree with you and can provide cites and evidence to refute your idiotic claims.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, August 7, 2011 3:57 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Thank you, DT. Well said. Not that it will have ANY impact on the person to whom it's addressed.



Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

DT, how do I make her point, at all ?



Rap,

She was predicting that you would not read my post or respond to it, but instead would just continue to argue with her.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 6:40 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Funny...came back to this one and was struck by how much attention Raptor seems to have spent going after me for noticing his posts, from what DT said and quoted, hee, hee, hee. Made me wonder if I hit a nerve or something with Raptor. Someone with a desperate need for attention WOULD no doubt find it irritating to only be mocked and ignored.

For the most part, "discussions" lately have been comprised of Raptor apparently making his usual overblown, irrational statements and others actually trying to "debate" him (or something like that, from what I see of the quotes and responses). Doesn't encourage any ACTUAL discussion, so has lost my interest. It's more fun needling Raptor, because I and some others can see that's all he's really good for, when you get past instinctively reacting to his goading of others.

So, except for the REAL discussions and until more people pop in to join them (notice how few responders there are lately? Wonder if others might feel like me...), I'm here to snark and hold Raptor up for comic relief. Should get lots of material if I go bakc to actually READING his posts. It's ALMOST tempting to mock those responding to him, beause they're just encouraging him and turning threads into two- or four-way nonsensical arguments. JMHO.



Ooooo...treasonous...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, August 8, 2011 7:04 AM

BYTEMITE


I wonder why there aren't many responders lately. It couldn't be because so many threads are devolving into flamewars and other antics, or that so many threads start out flamebait to begin with.

Eh. Maybe this is just the natural progression of any political discussion board. People get into sides. One side picks out a single target from the other side, because if you beat just one person, you've beaten the entire side. So they go to town. The allies of that person come running in, but it's too late, they're ignored and the curb stomp has begun. The injured side is appalled by how the other side ganged up on one of them, and maybe particularly bothered by the behaviour of one of the attackers in general, and they start picking on THEM.

So it goes, each side maybe gets a few months being the aggressors then they switch. Before long everything looks like

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Monday, August 8, 2011 5:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well you won't see me jump in it, other than the occasional offhanded backhanded just for forms sake, and not out of any decency, oh no...

But rather that I could not have intentionally created a more perfect strawman, who's very existence demeans any cause they support, and from whom almost every word damages that cause and inevitably advances the likelyhood of that reign of terror purge which I think is really the only solution to that particular form of insanity.

Far, far be it for me to stand in between him and the *natural consequences* of his own actions, especially when that'd take away from mocking and humiliating them when their final hurrah comes in a quivering ball of abject cowardice and hypocrisy.

Of course, there's times I'd like to bash Mikey unconscious with a broken honda clutch drum myself, but he's prolly just workin out misplaced aggression in a fashion with no real guilt attached to it, and I can understand that, I've done far worse - at least he stops with words, although words can harm as much or more....
I guess it's a moral failing of my own that in regards to the target, I don't particularly care.

For mine own, I generally don't pay a mind to it when it gets into that ridiculous tit-for-tat kindergarten crap, why would I ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 5:36 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah. I should be used to it, I guess. The board hasn't torn itself apart yet, don't think it's going to.

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Monday, August 8, 2011 6:01 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


A Frem a chara, you get mean and nasty sometimes too, I've seen it, you fall into the same game of letting people rile you up, and don't say you don't because you do.
We can all get frustrated now and again and say things that are harsh. I think some of us are better about practicing moderation on that front, but we've all done it before.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 8, 2011 7:23 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
A Frem a chara, you get mean and nasty sometimes too, I've seen it, you fall into the same game of letting people rile you up, and don't say you don't because you do.


Oh yeah, but there's the cold, calculated, had-it-coming kind of verbal thrashing, which is viciously personal cause it's supposed to be personal, I do try to avoid using the "big brush", but I'm human too yanno.

And then there's, well... going all Edgar Friendly about it, but that's intentional venting on subjects that I highly suspect other people feel similar about but may be unable to properly articulate.

Honestly, my jaw hit the floor when I saw that movie, but not NEARLY as bad as Donnie and Ray, who were like "No Effin WAY!", and asking me if I was *related* to him, lololol...



There is, I admit, a certain resemblance.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, August 9, 2011 11:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

I wonder why there aren't many responders lately. It couldn't be because so many threads are devolving into flamewars and other antics, or that so many threads start out flamebait to begin with.
Me too, doll, and it's why I keep (to no avail, obviously) trying to point out the futility of responding, especially in kind. It wasn't like that when I first arrived...but back then the righties seemed to have a more equal voice. Unfortunately, to me it didn't seem a more logical, reasonable or civil voice, just now there are fewer of them.

Politics and religion have always been the biggies when it comes to contention, I know that...I guess I'll just go on wistfully wishing for some real communication...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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