Pima County, AZ Republican Party Holding a Raffle by Kwicko

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Pima County, AZ Republican Party Holding a Raffle

POSTED BY: KWICKO
UPDATED: Monday, September 5, 2011 19:53
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Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:18 PM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/01/gop-in-giffords-district-holds-r
affle-for-glock/

Quote:
The Republican Party in Arizona's Pima County, which is represented by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), is in the midst of a fundraising raffle, $10 per entry.

The prize: the same model of gun that delivered a near-fatal blast to the Democratic lawmaker's skull outside a Tucson grocery store in January.

Seriously, GOP? Really?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 2:21 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

How does the model of gun matter? This is manufactured outrage.

The Glock is a fine weapon. Certainly of better pedigree than anything I own.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:17 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm sorry, but holding a raffle with a prize of the gun that was used to shoot Giffords (or any Senator or Congressperson) is just plain sick. Not that I'm surprised, given it IS Arizona, but the message is BEYOND sick, if that's its intention (which it sounds like it is)!

Quote:
Brian Miller, the immediate past chair of the Pima County GOP, told Talking Points Memo that while he has raffled off guns as fundraisers before, to do so now is insensitive and inappropriate.

"There's a woman who has a bullet in the brain and who everybody is wishing a full recovery," Miller said. "I don't think that raffling off a firearm right now is probably the right way to go."

How nice to hear at least one person has a sense of perspective! Way to go Miller!

But given the other example of

Quote:
A weapons manufacturer also produced a limited-edition run of engraved gun supplies commemorating South Carolina Republican Joe Wilson's "you lie" interruption of Obama's September 2009 address to Congress.

it would seem like this might well BE the message.

Quote:
Pima Country GOP Chairman Pro Tem Mike Shaw told CNN’s Randi Kaye Thursday that raffling off the same kind of gun that was used to shoot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) was completely appropriate because the congresswoman also owned a similar weapon.
.....
“It was the actions of Jared Loughner that happened during the Tucson shooting so Jared was the one who was responsible,” Shaw explained. “He could have used any type of weapon and chose to use a Glock."

As to the first, what does her owning one have to do with anything? Surely they're not using that gun to applaud Gifforts?! Sorry, but given all the gazillions of types of guns our little gun-bunny country provides, choosing the kind that shot Giffords--by the party running against her--is just a little too obvious.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:21 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I daresay you'll be hard pressed to find a model of gun that has never been used to kill anyone. I think significance is being assigned to this Glock that is unwarranted. I notice that I do not see articles condemning the vast majority of law enforcement agencies for issuing Glocks to their officers. And how can they dare to continue issuing a firearm that was used to kill a Senator?

To me, this is just going too far out of the way to become outraged about something, and giving power to an assassin that he does not deserve to have.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:27 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

I'd prefer that they raffle an American-made gun, maybe a S&W or Colt.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:34 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I'd prefer that they raffle an American-made gun, maybe a S&W or Colt.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Hello,

Any valuable gun with a good reputation will do. (And I mean a reputation for accuracy and reliability, not for the deaths of particular people in widely publicized incidents.) The point of a raffle is to have a prize that is desirable to the target participants. My guess would be that someone donated the Glock to the cause, and so they're raffling a Glock. In my limited raffling experience, that's usually how it works. Often a sponsor will donate an item to the raffle in order to bring fame to their product or business.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:43 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sorry, Anthony, we'll have to agree to disagree. It's not about guns having killed "anyone", it's about holding a Republican raffle in Giffords' district in Arizona to raise election funds with the prize of the same model of gun as that which shot the Arizona representative the GOP will be running against. It's not the first time. Note another example:

Quote:
In November, {State Attorney General J. Joseph Curran Jr.}, called for stricter gun control laws ...the raffle of a Berretta 9mm pistol was proposed in the fall to oppose Curran's gun control proposal....Debate over the raffle was reignited this week by the sudden resignation from the county central committee of Betty L. Smith, former vice chairwoman, who called the raffle "insensitive and irresponsible".

That's an example of a raffle being held with a gun as the prize specifically to make a statement.

I'm afraid I see this as a similar instance, as was the "gun supplies" engraved to commemorate "You lie".

As one woman said:

Quote:
"I think it's an incredible lack of sensitivity toward Gabrielle Giffords and all the victims and families of the victims in Tucson. This was an unprecedented tragedy for Tucson and for our nation, and we are just stunned that this group of people would think that this was appropriate and something that was worthy of doing. There's so many items that could be raffled off to raise money."

And SO many other types of guns, if they wanted to raffle off a gun. I see a link; you're welcome not to. Call us overly-sensitive if you want to, it's certainly your right.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Let's not bullshit ourselves, folks.
Imma call it, fuck dancing around it.

Look, for all that I can be downright rabid about freedom of expression, second amendment rights, and respecting differences of opinion, that doesn't mean I'm not as quick to voice disapproval of other folks behavior, also within my rights.

This is a less-than-subtle threat, is what it is, a backhanded endorsement of this horrific deed as well as both an encouragement and future threat thereof.

And it's MEANT TO BE, it's damn well deliberate, intentional, and offensive even to me despite being within their rights to do - it just shows ever more clearly the true colors of what these bastards are underneath the mask, which is why I despise them to the point of near-hypocrisy in that while I do not, personally, encourage such actions against them, I would do utterly nothing to forestall or stop them.

Even if I was standing right there.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:58 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

We will have to disagree, then. It's not even the same model gun. I can't make the same leap you are making in this case.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:11 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Thank you Frem...you're the last person I would consider "overly sensitive", so it's good to hear you feel the same. It has always made me shake my head, the adoration that Republicans seem to have for guns and gun rhetoric. We heard and saw enough of it in the midterms, using terminology to insinuate "killing" others, revolution, etc. Apparently it's not unusual for them to use guns as a raffle prize (which is weird enough to me), and to use them as raffle prizes representing a statement. The gun is the UPDATED model of what was used on Giffords; I'm not at all surprised they'd use the most up-to-date model, but I think the message is pretty clear, given previous examples and the gun terminology used in the midterms...added to the fact that ever since those midterms, thing have gotten even more overt and even more contentious. JMHO.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:21 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
The gun is the UPDATED model of what was used on Giffords; I'm not at all surprised they'd use the most up-to-date model, but I think the message is pretty clear,

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

Hello,

**********************

The Glock 17 is the original 9x19mm Parabellum model, with a standard magazine capacity of 17 rounds. Several modified versions of the Glock 17 have been introduced.

The Glock 19 is effectively a reduced-size Glock 17, called the "Compact" by the manufacturer. It was first produced in 1988, primarily for military and law enforcement. The Glock 19 has a barrel and pistol grip that are shorter by approximately 12 mm (0.5 in) compared to the Glock 17 and uses a magazine with a standard capacity of 15 rounds. The pistol is compatible with factory magazines from the Glock 17 and Glock 18, with available capacities of 10, 17, 19, and 33 rounds. To preserve the operational reliability of the short recoil system, the mass of the slide remains the same as in the Glock 17 from which it is derived. With the exception of the slide, frame, barrel, locking block, recoil spring, guide rod, and slide lock spring, all of the other components are interchangeable between the models 17 and 19.

The Glock 21 is a .45 ACP version of the Glock 20 designed primarily for the American market.[51] Compared to the Glock 20 chambered in 10mm Auto, the slide of the Glock 21 is lighter to compensate for the lower-energy .45 ACP cartridge. The standard Glock 21 magazine is of the single-position-feed, staggered-column type with a capacity of 13 rounds.

***********************

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:31 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Just wanted to add- if they wanted a Glock 19 to make a point, those weapons are available. If they wanted a 9mm to make a point, those weapons are available, too.

The rafflers chose a different model of a different caliber. It's not an updated 19. That is either a lie or an ignorant statement (should I assume lie, because it's the worst option and one that damns the article authors, and might score some easy points? No. I'll allow that the authors may merely be ignorant of gun lineage and design, because most newspaper writers are utterly ignorant in that regard.)

Rather than just leap to the conclusion that the rafflers are demons wearing human skin who wanted to mock and threaten a victim, I'll choose to believe this is just an ordinary gun raffle, because they like gun raffles.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, September 1, 2011 4:37 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Additional clarification. It appears the article is very confused, because the actual advertisement is not for either of the models described in the article.

The actual advertisement is for this weapon:

The Glock 23 is a .40 S&W version of the compact Glock 19. It is dimensionally identical to the Glock 19 but is slightly heavier and uses a modified slide, frame, .40 S&W barrel and a standard magazine capacity of 13 rounds. The factory 15-round magazine from the larger Glock 22 will function in the Glock 23.

Which is still not an 'updated' 19 so much as one manufactured to shoot a completely different type of ammunition.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, September 2, 2011 7:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Nah Anthony, this is one of those things where perception comes into it, more than the actual details.

You see, when a considerable portion of their political base *IS* celebrating it exactly as I called it, *AND* the politico in question makes ZERO effort to distance themselves, having an attitude more properly characterized as nudge, nudge, wink, wink...

What the hell else can one possibly call it - isn't the event in question so much as the deliberate goddamn attitudes of these vile bastards, spinning what'd otherwise just be tasteless and idiotic into celebration of an atrocious act and piling implied threat on top of it.
(And it sore, SORE pisses me off that everyone else seems to forget that Giffords was not the only victim that day, those were PEOPLE, goddamn it!)

Oh no, that shit doesn't fly with me, and if they wanna play THAT game...
I'll be more than happy to oblige the sick little bastards and their whole goddamn political faction.
That won't end well for em.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, September 2, 2011 7:33 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

a backhanded endorsement of this horrific deed

Exactly! I saw the headline over on CNN.com, didn't read the story. I thought, " Well, that's in bad taste." and I figured, well, they're raffling off a gun, that is OK, it's gun country, maybe it's a Winchester or Colt Peacemaker, some typicaly historical Wild West piece, or maybe a deer rifle or shotgun, but THE SAME MODEL? That's either an endorsement or a threat.

( Edited after reading the complete thread: OK, it isn't the EXACT same model, but it's too damned close. Not a good idea. Kinda like carrying a Luger replica in 22 LR while wearing an American Nazi party uniform and claiming that you don't like Adolf Hitler, and it's not REALLY the same gun.
Raffle some other manufacturer's piece.)

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Friday, September 2, 2011 11:39 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

I agree that this is a made-up "outrage".

What gun killed Lincoln? Or Kennedy?

According to the libs, those should be outlawed as well.

Are you getting tired of leftover hippies trying to run things yet?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Friday, September 2, 2011 1:07 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

Wulf, the argument isn't about whether this weapon (or any weapon) should be 'banned' but rather whether the rafflers are using this weapon as some kind of sick taunt or threat aimed at their opponents. I don't feel that such a leap is justified, while others do. I just can't imagine the fundraiser personnel acting with such malice. I believe it is a normal raffle of a type held at various times in the past. I won't assume or indict based on the information at hand.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, September 2, 2011 2:46 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I agree that this is a made-up "outrage".

What gun killed Lincoln? Or Kennedy?

According to the libs, those should be outlawed as well.

Are you getting tired of leftover hippies trying to run things yet?

Wow. You probably shouldn't get high on your own supply, Wulf. It makes you sound dumber than you already sound.

Haven't seen anyone here suggesting that anything should be "outlawed", just that this kind of thing is in incredibly poor taste, along the lines of the Westboro Baptist cult's actions. But it's good to see where you stand on such things. Not that there was ever any doubt , given how often you've openly talked of wanting to go on killing rampages against blacks, Hispanics, women, "libs/progs", etc.

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Friday, September 2, 2011 2:50 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Nah Anthony, this is one of those things where perception comes into it, more than the actual details.

You see, when a considerable portion of their political base *IS* celebrating it exactly as I called it, *AND* the politico in question makes ZERO effort to distance themselves, having an attitude more properly characterized as nudge, nudge, wink, wink...

What the hell else can one possibly call it - isn't the event in question so much as the deliberate goddamn attitudes of these vile bastards, spinning what'd otherwise just be tasteless and idiotic into celebration of an atrocious act and piling implied threat on top of it.
(And it sore, SORE pisses me off that everyone else seems to forget that Giffords was not the only victim that day, those were PEOPLE, goddamn it!)

Oh no, that shit doesn't fly with me, and if they wanna play THAT game...
I'll be more than happy to oblige the sick little bastards and their whole goddamn political faction.
That won't end well for em.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

Right on, Frem. 100% agree.

Maybe they should hold another gun raffle to help out the family of that little girl who was killed that day.

I mean, surely nobody would think that was in poor taste, right? Couldn't possibly be seen as crass or opportunistic, I'm sure.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, September 5, 2011 7:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I think that, more likely than not but not proovable, the fact that they have a Glock to raffle is a coincidence, since raffle items are indeed usually donated. I wouldn't raffle a gun, unless the raffle was being held by something that pertains more specifically to guns, but if I were them and did want to raffle a gun I'd definitely decide to raffle a different type once the perceived connection was brought to my attention, lest everyone think I was mean like that. They'd do better to apologize, say it was an accident and choose a different model to raffle off and use the Glock for another raffle or another purpose. That way everyone can rest a little easier in life.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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