Tiny survey/research question if anyone feels like helping by PhoenixRose

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Sorry, I'm a little jaded

I've worked with the public as well, jadedness is to be expected. Thanks for the response :)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:15 AM

I was going to say "everyone," not as a snark but as something I genuinely believe, but then I saw the request at the bottom of your post and realized that might not be helpful.

So... unique?

I'm one of those people who think that it's the fault of society that some people can't function in it, not the people themselves, and that different ways of thinking and different definitions of normal are a good thing.

I can understand medicating and therapy but as someone who's had bad experiences with medication and therapy, I prefer to try to deal with things on my own. I don't want to give up my uniqueness and become someone else, even if that someone else was a happier and more functional person.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:27 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Caveat: Please come up with your own immediate response to Rose's question and hang onto it before reading the following.

I'm not a fair representation of the "common man" either, given as you know I'm bipolar. So my response would be the same as Byte's, for a different reason. Over years of dealing with a mental illness and with several forums for the mentally ill, I've come to some conclusions of my own.

One is that the term is a pejorative for most people unfamiliar with actual mental illness. They have no actual concept of what it means, and it's become a derrogatory term overused to mean too many things.

Another is that the "science" is more an art, when it comes to diagnosis, so today there are people who are termed "mentally ill" who may possess one or more qualities of a particular mental illness, but who are not actually mentally ill.

On the other hand, and this is why my answer is what it is, I think we've gone too FAR in diagnosing mental illness, to the point where, if we continue on this path, I think "science" will eventually find enough diagnoses that EVERYONE will fit one category or another of "mental illness", which is pathetic to me because there is a vast difference between being somewhat compulsive and actually suffering from OCD.

I hope, having written this, that neither my response nor Byte's will color others' immediate reactions to the term, because I think I know where you're going. Come to think of it, as such, I think I'll add a caveat at the beginning. Thanx for asking, Rose, this should be interesting.

p.s. Byte; I agree with your last paragraph 100%.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:29 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

crazy.

That's all, just plain "crazy."

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:54 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me."

What one is labeled with when they can't grasp the entirety (the depth and breadth) of your thoughts.

Or crazy.

Crazy works.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, September 26, 2011 8:25 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
crazy.

That's all, just plain "crazy."

Sorry, but could you expand on that a bit? It's a rather non-specific word. Just continue the word-associating a step more, if you would. What does 'crazy' mean to you?

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 8:33 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

"Trouble"

This does not mean that I think that a mentally ill person will be trouble for me, particularly, but that the result of their illness may well be trouble for someone, or themselves. Guess I'm just paraphrasing a previous answer, "burden".

Of course, when I think of mental illness I tend to remember my cousins back in the 50s, who had a teenage daughter with a mental age of about three, and the things they were put through.

I realize that there are people who live with and function successfully with, mental illness as well.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, September 26, 2011 8:48 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

The "craziest" people were/are usually the people that change the world for the better.

World revolves around the sun? - crazy.

Evolution? - crazy

American revolution, on the grounds that men have inalienable rights? - crazy

Land on the moon? - crazy

Climb Mt Everest? - crazy

Beat Germany/Japanese war machine? - crazy

Sail around the world? - crazy

FLY around the world? - crazy

Yeah, pretty much anyone who has ever done anything worth doing, and in the process pushed us all further than we ever thought possible...

was called crazy by some low, short-sighted, ignorant, assclown.

Mental-illness? Sometimes its a just handle... other times, its a way of boxing in those better than the name-givers.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Monday, September 26, 2011 9:26 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!

A person who's view and or understanding of the world does not allow them to function in society.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 10:46 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
crazy.

That's all, just plain "crazy."

Sorry, but could you expand on that a bit? It's a rather non-specific word. Just continue the word-associating a step more, if you would. What does 'crazy' mean to you?

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

Nuts, whacko, looney-toones, woo-woo, cuckoo for cocopuffs.

Sorry, that's all word association gets me.( EDIT-- that was a first, word- association response. My total opinion on the subject is much more sophisticated, if I stop to think about it.)

Seeking a better definition? it has something to do with not perceiving the world in a realistic fashion, on a level other than political. Not sure whether or not it involves taking action based on that perception.

Something on the order of believing that cars driving down the street are not cars, but some kind of living, breathing murderous cousins of fire-breathing dragons, alive, aware, self-willed, intelligent living things rather than mechanical devices controlled by a human intelligence within.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:28 AM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Hey everyone, I'm writing a paper, and I'd like to test one of my opinions a little before I build on it, so I have a question for anyone who cares to answer.

What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me.

(No snark, please. Any response of "liberal/conservative/specific person" won't really help me.)

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

PR,

Off the top of my head "inability to cope with dominant social structure or inability to conform to social norms by choice when required to do so."

Sure, many may choose not to conform, but they are able to if a situation necessitates it. For instance, if you go around flapping your arms and screeching like a fruit bat you are not mentally ill, but if a car hits a motorcyclist in front of you and you are actually unable to stop being a fruit bat and come down to earth to try to be of some help, or at least out of the way, then you are mentally ill.

I think most of these problems are dietary, some psychological, and very few of them may have a genetic origin, but that would be my general definition.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 12:12 PM

Quote:
Something on the order of believing that cars driving down the street are not cars, but some kind of living, breathing murderous cousins of fire-breathing dragons, alive, aware, self-willed, intelligent living things rather than mechanical devices controlled by a human intelligence within.

It's surprisingly hard to hunt them. :(

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Monday, September 26, 2011 12:20 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Schizophrenia Of all the mental illnesses that I know of, this is so dramatic that it pops up first, before anything else.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 12:49 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Same as Siggy.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 1:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I PM'd. but if you don't get the email, same as Siggy.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 26, 2011 2:29 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

A man, sitting on a bed, alone in a small room, looking sad.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner

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Monday, September 26, 2011 2:52 PM

HKCAVALIER

Emotional wreckage. Unprocessed grief.

Lady Cavalier said, without being coached: emotional violence. (Yeah, we're really good at Charades.)

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 3:00 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Mental illness = jews, cops, politicians, journalists, teachers.

My report on "Cops As Psychopaths" is very popular:
http://dragonaters.blogspot.com/2011/09/police-officer-as-psychopath.h
tml

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Monday, September 26, 2011 3:18 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Again my response probably isn't the norm since I work in this field and have a mental illness myself, and not an interesting or creative one either, no dragons on the road for me, :( I'd rather have any other one than the one I have. But anyways, when I hear those words I think of what I have, because its so unpleasant and has no redeeming qualities, no one with my disorder is ever what I'd consider touched, especially in the form I have it. I'd much rather have something else. The term is kind of depressing really. But also the term peaks my interest when I hear it, once I get passed my own experiences. Because I love working in this field andI'm good at it and I feel like I make a positive difference every day for the people I work with/assist/give resources to. So it evokes both an unpleasant feeling about my own brain's situation and also a good feeling since I enjoy working in the mental health field.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 26, 2011 5:26 PM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.

Hmm... Medication, I guess.

Facts are stubborn things.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 6:37 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Okay, this was good. (well, mostly.) Thanks, guys, I think I can safely put my postulation down on paper without it seeming baseless. Paper's not due for a week, though, if anyone else wants to chip in.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 7:58 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Did we come up with the answers you sought? Did we come up with the answers you expected?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 26, 2011 8:09 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

To insure my impartialness i'm responding before reading any replies so apologies if I'm repeating someone.

Nonadaptive if that is a word

I believe everyone has their own unique quirks and ways of Doug things but would not consider one of those traits to be a mental disorder unless it impedes their ability to live a healthy life. If you don't use ilness and disorder interchangeably I have another answer.

I believe a mental illness is a disorder (as defined above) that can be somehow physically observed in the brain itself. In other words, there must be more than just behavioral evidence.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
What is the very first thing you think when you see or hear the words mental illness? Just word-associate it for me.

Bunk, Fraud, Misdiagnosis.

To expound on that, we've expanded to official diagnosis of "mental illness" to the point were it encompasses a substantial amount of ordinary behavior which by any reasonable standard would fall within the bounds of "normal", or even weird-but-functional, and thus done a tremendous disservice to those which critical disabilities which prevent normal functioning by way of trivialising that definition and demeaning it.

So when I hear the term my immediate visceral reaction is more or less "bullshit!" followed by a demand for evidence to support that diagnosis - which in my experience with specific realms of it, usually amounts to "Does not obey." - which by THAT standard, clearly makes me quite, quite insane...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 26, 2011 11:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

" crazy "

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:30 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

You know what I find interesting? That most of those who responded have a decent grasp of mental illness as not just "crazy", but something real, and more than that, most of them recognize it's a difficulty for the person who has it, not that they're "bad".

Quote:
I believe everyone has their own unique quirks and ways of Doug things but would not consider one of those traits to be a mental disorder unless it impedes their ability to live a healthy life. If you don't use ilness and disorder interchangeably I have another answer.

I believe a mental illness is a disorder (as defined above) that can be somehow physically observed in the brain itself. In other words, there must be more than just behavioral evidence.

Really good, Happy.

Nick:

Quote:
A person who's view and or understanding of the world does not allow them to function in society.

Pretty damned close. I'd caveat that to say "SOMETIMES does not", because it's usually not an "always" thing, but you got the central point: "function". Mental illness is only diagnosable as such, according to the DSM-IV, if it interferes with functioning.

And DT,

Quote:
"inability to cope with dominant social structure or inability to conform to social norms by choice when required to do so."

Also excellent.

Also good, NewOld:

Quote:
it has something to do with not perceiving the world in a realistic fashion.

I'm impressed at the lack of ignorance people here show. Of course, most ARE pretty knowledgeable about many things, but we in the mentally-ill community are so accustomed to the long-standing stigma and ignorance about mental illness that I guess I expected to see more of it. Maybe I'm getting behind the times, and wouldn't that be lovely!

And Wulf, you rocked me back on my heels with

Quote:
pretty much anyone who has ever done anything worth doing, and in the process pushed us all further than we ever thought possible...

was called crazy by some low, short-sighted, ignorant, assclown.

Mental-illness? Sometimes its a just handle... other times, its a way of boxing in those better than the name-givers.

I'd never in my wildest dreams have believed YOU'd say something like that. It's quite true, in its way, and there's a highly-respected author by the mental-health community who wrote a book about that very thing, called "Touched by Fire". She postulates that we are the "aberrant gene" in the gene pool who will try something "normal" people wouldn't, which leads to forward progress, and are thus an important part of society. It's an excellent and well-written book; Kay Jamison was the first person accredited in the field of psychiatry to "out" herself as mentally ill, and her own story (her first book) is really illuminating.

I also liked

Quote:
What one is labeled with when they can't grasp the entirety (the depth and breadth) of your thoughts.

If you mean "THEIR" thoughts...the sentence is a bit confusing, but I'm guessing that's what you mean, given MOST of us can't grasp others' thoughts. ;o)

All in all, I'm impressed! And I thank you; the decades of stigma and ignorance have done so much damage to so many, I'd LOVE to believe times are changing!

Geezer, just to say, "mental illness" isn't the same as "mental retardation", which is what you seem to be describing.

And Sig, while Schiz is the most dramatic and probably best known mental illness, in my opinion the far-less-recognized Borderline is the most awful one. Schizophrenia can be treated with meds, and i know quite a few who lead functional lives, but Borderline can only be "cured" with therapy (tho' meds can be used to mitigate it somewhat), and having known a few, my heart goes out to them deeply.

Why do PN and Raptor's responses not surprise me in the least?

So tell us, Rose; we gave you our answers, what's it about? I'm dying to know.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:38 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:

Why do PN and Raptor's responses not surprise me in the least?

Still ignoring my posts, huh? We see how well that's working out for ya.

I participated in the 'tiny' survey, by giving the first word that came to mind upon reading the question. I didn't elaborate, just have an honest, to the point reply to the topic.

Don't really know what point you're trying to make, w/ your irrelevant and petty snark. Did I critique anyone else's comment ? What makes you feel the need to add your 2 cents to MY reply ?

Got a question ? Ask. If not, how about just let the one doing the survey worry about what responses were given.

Thanks.

*edit * - I see that newoldbrowncoat gave the same response as I did, earlier in the thread, though I didn't see it. Odd how you commented on MY reply, but not NOB's.

Yep, just keep on ignoring me, Niki. You're so good at it!

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:41 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

P.S. I found it interesting, Rose, that you put this up when you did. I've had it okay for a long time now, and just a couple of days ago realized I'm going into a depressive episode. So many of the things people offered fit right now...not in anything regarding my behavior in the outside world (mostly because I avoid it!), but in my thinking; how everything seems to hopeless and black, my total lack of motivation (haven't even gotten the huskies anywhere but the dog park for three days), physical sensations, and last night sitting there starting to cry for no reason whatsoever. Bah. I hate being reminded that it's still here, or, if anyone remembers the line, that "it's comin' around on the gittar again".

Oh, how I miss hypomania!!!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:15 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
So tell us, Rose; we gave you our answers, what's it about? I'm dying to know

I'm writing a paper about health care coverage as it applies to mental illness. Medication is covered, but adequate office visits for proper diagnosis through observation are not, for example. Part of my hypothesis is that the stigma attached to mental illness, arising in part from a majority view that it is severe and always permanent, gives the insurance companies an excuse to not cover certain treatments. After all, if "mentally ill" means that someone will be locked up and a ward of the state, why should there be much coverage? Conversely, if the condition is not severe, they're "all in your head" and the cognitive treatments aren't covered.
I asked here and a couple other sites I'm a member of, and I definitely got more answers having to do with the severe/dangerous disorders and institutions/asylums than with things like social anxiety or low-grade depression, which more people suffer.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:26 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
Medication is covered, but adequate office visits for proper diagnosis through observation are not

Boy oh boy oh BOY, am I with you on that one!

There was a study where X number of p-docs saw X number of patients for half an hour. They diagnosed most of them depressive, few of them bipolar. Then they rotated everyone and the p-docs saw other patients for an hour and a half. They diagnosed FAR more of them bipolar. Given bipolars generally only seek help when in the depressive state (as I did), and the difficulty of correctly diagnosing any mental illness, it was another example of how our medical system doesn't work, not giving p-docs enough time to better diagnose conditions. Since there's not yet any scientific test for mental illnesses WIDELY AVAILABLE (there ARE tests now, but expensive and still only in trials), it's so vital that people get a chance at as correct a dx as possible. And given I've LONG been a strong proponent of therapy (in conjunction with meds, if necessary, and with self-education, ABSOLUTELY!), I'm really with you on that one, fer shore!

Good luck!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:30 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg

"Mental Illness", (as its pimped today) kind of makes me sick.

Some days you might feel sad. - It doesn't mean you are "depressed".

Some days you might be angry. - It doesn't mean you are on the verge of a "violent episode".

Some days you might not be paying attention. - It doesn't mean you have "ADD".

Some days you may have drank too much coffee. - It doesn't mean you have "restless leg syndrome".

In my years on the earth I've learned a bunch of different things. One of them being this:

There is no pill (or pills) that will make your life perfect, or you perfectly happy. And even if there was such a magical thing, would you really want to take it?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:14 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Since there's not yet any scientific test for mental illnesses WIDELY AVAILABLE (there ARE tests now, but expensive and still only in trials), it's so vital that people get a chance at as correct a dx as possible.

I concur. Though I also think that a basic test on neurotransmitter levels (tests which are not expensive nor in trials) should be run before anything is prescribed. After all, if the problem lies with epinephrine levels, you don't want to be messing with serotonin now do you? Symptoms might look similar coming from different levels being off.
But that's a different paper for another day.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:38 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well said, Wulf. The DSM-IV, which is referred to as the "psychiatrists bible" is very clear about it, but that doesn't seem to translate to most people. They are very strict that there is no diagnosis unless whatever it is "causes serious impediment to functioning", but people don't seem to get that--even many p-docs!

Rose, oh, boy, again, you got it! Then, too, I was dx'd long ago and put on medication for thyroid problems, but it wasn't until I was properly dx'd bipolar that I learned hypo- or hyper-thyroid conditions virtually always go hand in hand with bipolarity! So much is missed on both sides of diagnosis.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:13 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Frem and Wulf, I totally agree that over labeling is a problem, especially with kids. The key is that the differences are impacting daily functioning, but a lot of clinicians seem to over look that as Niki said. I don't believe in saying someone has a disorder unless they actually have it. Don't get me started on that one. Some people may have slight tendencies towards something, but unless it is pervasive it shouldn't be diagnosed and labeled.

Niki, I'm having a hard time tonight too, not the same you are, but still, luh suh.

Phoenix a chara, I agree that more definitive tests would be really helpful and it bothers me that more pdocs don't take that stuff seriously. The key is to figure out what exactly is lacking or overabundant, and work on getting those balances right and stable and to be in a way where the person can do as well as possible.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Ah yes, the old "checklist diagnosis" I hate so much, often complicated by docs taking parents/teachers and so on at their word despite them offering biased or incorrect information for their own reasons, on top of a certain "push" by Big Pharma to get their products in use - which to my mind is downright negligence if not malpractice.

It takes a minimum of ninety minutes in a controlled environment to properly diagnose a behavioral disorder, and anything less is just a halfass guess - but when medical coverage doesn't extend to that, it just makes this all the worse.

Plenty of source documentation for that kinda thing is available if you know where to look.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:06 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yeah, I think that for a first time diagnosis they should see the person a few times before deciding on a definitive one, especially with kids. But people don't view things my way.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:17 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Very interesting. Another interesting aspect to that is misdiagnosis. I've encountered more than a few Asperger cases where I do not believe the child really has Aspergers, but they need the diagnosis for insurance to provide coverage for behavioral therapy. I didn't like the dishonesty, but I was told our behavioral therapy program helps the children cope with their issues and the Autism or Asperger diagnosis is just necessary for some families to get the funding.

I don't want to hijack the thread so I'll keep this short, but because I've learned of more and more of these less than ethical practices in the company I worked for (and didn't exactly hide my disapproval) I am no longer working for said company. I had already decided I wanted to leave but was hoping to give them the finger and leave once I found another job. Oh well... perhaps this will be a blessing in disguise.

But anyway, back to your topic, I wonder how rampant fraud of that nature is when it comes to health care coverage. It's not necessarily evil because it was meant to help these children, but I am still uncomfortable with that manner of dishonesty. I worry that kind of dishonesty is part of what's wrong with many a government funded program.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... I wonder how rampant fraud of that nature is when it comes to health care coverage ..."

Well - it depends on which country you're in. If you're in the US where coverage is spotty even if available at all, and where constitutional issues keep the mentally ill wandering the streets, some might find any dodge used to get therapy for someone who needs it is a good thing.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 6:51 PM

Aw, Happy, we haven't seen you in a while. I feel like we should have been here for you, sounds like you've been through a rough time.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 7:09 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Email link send via PM, Happy - the reason I didn't wanna initially discuss the matter with you discretely was due to concern about causing the exact situation you seem to have found yourself in.

Anyhow, if you'd like to talk about it, there it is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, September 27, 2011 8:46 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Oh Happy, I'm sorry things didn't work out with that, it sounds like you chose based on your principles though and I think that you'll find something else soon. Sounds like you've run into the over diagnosis problem too.

Hey Frem, could you send me an email about what's up with Jeni? You said you knew the person who was helping look after her a while back, I want to know if she's at a good establishment, if she's loved and looked after well etc. I wish I'd known you when I was going through my feral child phase. I know that isn't really relevent to this thread, but the last time I asked you didn't answer me.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 2:50 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Geezer, just to say, "mental illness" isn't the same as "mental retardation", which is what you seem to be describing.

Rationally, I know that. Emotionally, when I hear "Mental Illness" that's the first thing that pops into my mind.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 6:08 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Happy, except for the timing, i.e., the current economy, I'd say "blessing in disguise". May you find another job soon, and one you feel good about.

When you say "misdiagnosis", I think of all the kids misdiagnosed (as has been mentioned), and us bipolars. It was so common for bipolars to be misdiagnosed depressive that they gave it its own category! If we're misdiagnosed depressive and put ONLY on anti-depressants, they can cause us to go manic...it happened to many, many people (still does no doubt) back when I was diagnosed (and it happened to me). It's caused hospitalizations and suicides, and is damned unpleasant, lemme tell 'ya! Luckily I'm bipolar II, so can only go "hypo"manic (less than); I hate to think where I'd be if I were Bipolar I!!

Misdiagnosis is a serious problems in so MANY ways; the above, "fraud" as you mentioned (tho' yes, I'm on the fence whether that's the kind of "fraud" that's bad or not), kids being misdiagnosed and put on wrong or too many meds, things like the study I mentioned above; it's truly still an "art" rather than a "science", unfortunately. And as a society, we are way too heavily invested in "take a pill", labels, and finding "mental illness" where some good therapy would fix the problem.

I doubt I'll live long enough to see it dealt with better, but hopefully in the generations to come after me...

Riona, you have my sympathy AND my empathy, "luh suh" is damned right! Hope you feel better soonest!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:18 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
finding "mental illness" where some good therapy would fix the problem

Therapy can absolutely fix many problems, but that doesn't mean (to me) that they aren't mental illness. I compare some things to the psychological equivalent of a head cold; unpleasant and at times lasting longer than you would like, but nothing to be too worried about. Other things might be more like a chest cold, much more unpleasant and with the possibility of becoming something more severe if not seen to, but not a major threat if you can get some rest and some mild treatment. The comparisons could go on and on, but my main thesis for this paper is that we recognize various degrees of physical malady and offer various treatments that are nearly all covered by insurance, so why is mental illness different? Well, because it's been separated from the other practices of medicine, is why. I don't think it should be. I think that the standards for diagnosis, careful consideration of treatment, and insurance coverage that applies to everything else in medicine should apply to mental health care as well. I think the science is closer than you might think, but it's not going to be used if they can skate by without it.
Not that a paper for English class is going to change anything, but something along these lines is going to be my platform pretty much all through school. Eventually, I might make some waves.

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:05 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hey Geezer and Niki. What a lot of people don't realize, unless they're exposed to it, is that there is a certain amount of overlap between mental health differences and developmental differences. So Geezer's cousin very well may have had both. Also it is possible that Geezer's cousin has schizophrenia in the variety that presents some symptomatology that appears as developmental difference, I've heard of a few situations that the touchedness looks like that when it isn't. Anyways Geezer, how is your cousin (I guess she'd be your second cousin?) I hope she is safe and happy and fullfilled in life.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 28, 2011 9:08 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"... why is mental illness different? Well, because it's been separated from the other practices of medicine, is why."

I think because as little as we know of what really goes on in the body (why do people get heart failure?) we know even less of what goes on the the brain - or the mind.

Sometimes talk therapy helps. But then sometimes people do talk therapy on and on and on for years ... and it doesn't work. They still purge and starve. You think maybe it's biological. Then somebody provides an interaction, and all of the sudden it clicks like it was so easy. Of course purging and starving is a silly thing to do. So it wasn't biological, it was mere thoughts. It was a problem of the mind.

Or then you have someone suffering from depression. Been through everything, talk therapy, medications, electro-convulsive therapy. Nothing helps. No matter how they address their thoughts, those thoughts are still there. Then someone notices their calcium is high, they get a hot parathyroid nodule removed (note - not thyroid, the thyroid is a different gland), their calcium comes down and - they're perfectly fine. Calm, focused, motivated. It's clear it was a physical problem. All those mental difficulties were mere side effects of a brain glitching under high calcium.

People who hallucinate - perhaps they're 'crazy'. Nobody else sees or hears those things that aren't there. Or --- maybe they're taking a dopamine agonist, or suffer from sleep disorders and dream with their eyes open, or have temporal/ occipital lobe epilepsy, or any number of unrelated-to-'crazy' issues. But let's say you could draw a hard and fast rule - people who hallucinate are crazy.

What about people who have crazy ideas? Who think that the world is run by giant bugs ... not that they claim to have ever seen or heard or felt or smelled or tasted those bugs, but they ***KNOW*** those bugs are there. Running the world behind the scenes. And nothing will shake that belief. Are they crazy?

What about if it's a socially acceptable 'crazy'? God is watching everything I do and reading my thoughts every instant of every day. Or, everything Rush Limbaugh says is true, no matter how self-contradictory or at odds with the real world. Are they 'crazy'?

I have my own personal definition of crazy, but it may not be yours.

What is 'crazy'? Where does it come from? Should we fix it ? How do we fix it? It seems still very much up in the air.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Thursday, September 29, 2011 3:21 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
it was mere thoughts.

I have a problem with this. There's no such thing as "mere" thoughts. What someone thinks and does can impact their nervous system or their glands, and thoughts can self-perpetuate. Chemistry getting skewed can impact thoughts and the way someone feels. The body effects the mind, and the mind effects the body, they are not separate. There have been many studies on this, but thoughts are still seen as separate from the body, a problem with no "real" treatment because the problem isn't "real" beyond someone just thinking about it.
The same thoughts don't do the same thing to every system, just as the same medications don't do the same thing to every system. The human body is awash in complex chemistry all the time. You are correct that we don't understand it fully, but more is understood than I think a lot of people realize. My ultimate goal is to research more neurochemistry, because only a few neurotransmitters have really been studied in-depth, and I'm sure "lesser" ones make a difference for the "major" ones most people are familiar with.

My definition of crazy is that it's kind of an empty and meaningless word. It's been used to mean too many things to have any real meaning. Generally, though, it's used to refer to something intense or extreme. That's not necessarily what I'm talking about, here. There are too many disorders and illnesses for even most of them to be put under the heading of "crazy."

What reason had proved best ceased to look absurd to the eye, which shows how idle it is to think anything ridiculous except what is wrong.

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Thursday, September 29, 2011 3:33 AM