REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Blue Truth, Red Truth

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Friday, October 5, 2012 10:00
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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"Truthiness" has taken over for "telling the truth" worse than ever this campaign season, it seems to me, and it's pretty depressing. Reading Rap consistently saying the left is the only side that lies expresses a facet of what they discuss here. There is lying on both sides, and that's the fact.
Quote:

Both candidates say White House hopefuls should talk straight with voters. Here's why neither man is ready to take his own advice.

No one would ever mistake the White House press briefing room for a courthouse or a confessional, so the blue curtains and official seal made an ironic backdrop this summer for President Obama’s impromptu homily on honesty in public life. “The truth of the matter is you can’t just make stuff up,” he told the scribblers who get paid to check his facts. “That’s one thing you learn as President of the United States. You get called in to account.” It was just what reporters wanted to hear, even if it was not exactly true.

At the time, Obama was speaking about a campaign ad from Mitt Romney that falsely claimed that the President had eliminated the work requirement for welfare. The ad was unmistakably deceptive. But just five minutes earlier in the very same press conference, Obama had offered some misdirection of his own. “Nobody accused Mr. Romney of being a felon,” he said. In fact, one of the President’s senior strategists, Stephanie Cutter, told reporters a month earlier that Romney was misrepresenting himself either to the American people or to securities regulators — “which is a felony,” she said.

Cutter’s was a conditional accusation but an accusation nonetheless, and at the time it allowed the Romney campaign to take its turn playing truth teller. “A reckless and unsubstantiated charge,” protested Romney campaign manager Matt Rhoades, who asked Obama to apologize. Of course, no apology was forthcoming. So the posturing got worse.

“You know, in the past, when people pointed out that something was inaccurate, why, campaigns pulled the ad,” Romney complained about Obama a few weeks later, without any apparent self-awareness. That was followed by Obama aides’ announcing that Romney’s campaign was built on a “tripod of lies” and that Republicans “really think that lying is a virtue.” Romney continued his protests, saying, “The challenge that I’ll have in the debate is that the President tends to — how shall I say it — to say things that aren’t true.”

So it goes in the world’s most celebrated democracy: another campaign day, another battle over the very nature of reality. Both run campaigns that have repeatedly and willfully played the American people for fools, though their respective violations vary in scope and severity.

But the perpetrators usually remain a step ahead of the cops. “It’s like the campaigns are driving 100 miles an hour on a highway with a posted speed limit of 60, but the patrol cars all have flats,” says Mark McKinnon, a Republican ad man for the presidential campaigns of George W. Bush and John McCain. “There was a quaint era in politics when we were held accountable for the truth and paid consequences for errors of fact. No more.”

Indeed, the 2012 campaign has witnessed a historic increase in fact-checking efforts by the media, with dozens of reporters now focused full time on sniffing out falsehood. Clear examples of deception fill websites, appear on nightly newscasts and run on the front pages of newspapers. But the truth squads have had only marginal success in changing the behavior of the campaigns and almost no impact on the outside groups that peddle unvarnished falsehoods with even less accountability. “We’re not going to let our campaign be dictated by fact checkers,” explained Neil Newhouse, Romney’s pollster, echoing his industry’s conventional wisdom.

So what explains the factual recklessness of the campaigns? The most obvious answer can be found in the penalties, or lack thereof, for wandering astray. Voters just show less and less interest in punishing those who deceive. The reasons may be found in the political fracturing of the nation. As some voters feel a deeper affinity for one side or another in political debates, they have developed a tendency to forgive the home team’s fibs. No matter their ideology, many voters increasingly inhabit information bubbles in which they are less likely to hear their worldview contradicted.

In 1960, when John Kennedy won the White House by just 0.2% of the vote, 20 states, with 52% of the population, were considered highly competitive, according to Emory University’s Alan Abramowitz. By 2000, only 12 states, with 28% of the population, had a margin of victory of less than 5 percentage points. This year no more than nine states are in play, and the vote in several of those may not even be close in the final tally. Persuadable voters are increasingly hard to find. As Brendan Nyhan, a Dartmouth professor who studies falsehood in politics, puts it, “The incentives for truth telling are weaker in many ways than they have been in the post-Watergate era.”

At the same time, chances are high that your neighbors mostly agree with you and that the media you choose to consume rarely rattles your outlook. The pundits on MSNBC, the Huffington Post and the editorial page of the New York Times do a fine job of calling out the deceptions of Romney, but if you want to hear where Obama is going wrong, you might be better served on the Drudge Report, Fox News or the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

Human beings are simply more willing to believe falsehoods that confirm their worldview. In July, 17% of voters told pollsters for the Pew Research Center that Obama is a Muslim, an increase from just 12% in October 2008. Within the GOP, this fiction was believed by 30%, up from 16% in 2008, and the increase was more pronounced among those with college educations than among those without. The President is a Christian. There is no credible information to suggest otherwise. But for many caught up in the passions of politics, the facts are not conclusive.

To see just how easy it is to be fooled, one need only visit the controlled confines of the university laboratory. In the spring of 2006, Nyhan and his research partner Jason Reifler of Georgia State University gathered conservative and liberal students to test their resistance to factual information. They asked the group to read an article that included President George W. Bush’s claim that his tax cuts had increased revenue for the U.S. Treasury, which was provably false. Then they added a factual correction: the Bush tax cuts led to a three-year decline in tax revenue, from $2 trillion in 2000 to $1.8 trillion in 2003.

The correction worked among liberals, but among conservatives it produced a curious backfire effect: conservatives were nearly twice as likely to say the Bush tax cuts increased revenue after they had been told this was not true. Such distortions are not limited to the conservative mind. The researchers presented an article showing John Kerry’s claim from 2004 that he would “lift the ban on stem-cell research” imposed by Bush, followed by corrective information: Bush never actually banned stem-cell research; he prevented federal money from funding research on a subset of embryos. The true information had a corrective effect for conservatives and moderates but no impact on liberals. Once again, personal views had intervened. “The more we care about politics and the more it becomes central to our worldview, the more threatening it becomes to admit that we are wrong or our side is wrong,” Nyhan concludes. The studies show that facts that contradict our biases actually have the effect of reinforcing them.

Even more factual information might seem like a good solution to this problem. But the reality is more complex. Researchers have demonstrated in similar conditions that pieces of false information, once heard, establish themselves as “belief echoes” that can persist even after a falsehood is corrected.

One hint as to why this is the case can be found in other research on the interaction between emotion and fact. Some of the same emotional impulses that lead voters to seek out more information — concern, insecurity and fear, for example — skew their ability to accept accurate information. A 2008 Nyhan and Reifler study asked some research subjects to write a few sentences about a time when they had upheld a value that was important to them. The idea was to get subjects feeling good about themselves before they had their political biases challenged by facts. The exercise worked: when presented with evidence that the 2006 Iraq troop surge had reduced the number of insurgent attacks there, supporters of withdrawing U.S. forces from the country were more likely to accept the validity of the surge after a self-affirming exercise than without the exercise. Self-confidence allowed people to overcome their biases.

Campaign strategists, especially at the presidential level, know well just how easy it is to fool the public. No ad goes out without significant data from polls and focus groups to ensure its effectiveness. Glenn Kessler, who writes the Fact Checker column at the Washington Post, tells a story about the head of a super PAC who chewed him out after Kessler called him on a deceptive ad. “This was after he was screaming at me about something I had written, and he laughed and said, ‘I actually don’t give a hoot what you say, because these ads work.’”

The move to push for more accuracy began in earnest in the 1990s and evolved into the fact-checking outfits of today. It is grueling, sometimes messy work, given the complexity of the claims made in the course of a campaign day. Obama routinely says, for example, that use of renewable energy doubled under his watch, which is true only if you define renewable to mean just wind and solar energy. Romney claims that he can cut income tax rates 20% and still raise the same revenue with the same progressivity by eliminating deductions and loopholes. Using traditional budget scoring, this is not possible.

More and more, the worst deceptions fly under the radar, with microtargeted mailings and radio spots that can escape the attention of fact checkers.

In late September, Brooks Jackson, a veteran CNN reporter who runs FactCheck.org, convened his colleagues, including Kessler, Adair and Jim Drinkard of the Associated Press, to discuss their craft at the National Press Club. “Do you see places where either campaign has paid a price for misrepresenting facts?” Jackson asked them. Several seconds of silence followed. “Well, that’s kind of depressing,” Jackson said.

The great irony in this curious chapter in American politics is that both campaigns have made telling the truth a central message and a core qualification in each man’s case to be President. In the run-up to the first of three debates in October, both campaigns charged that deceptions by the other guy would be a window into his essential character. “He’s trying to fool people,” Romney told reporters on his plane. “Facts will matter,” said Obama aide David Axelrod in a memo in response.

As a strategic matter, this makes sense; the best defense is often a strong offense. But when politicians speak of truth telling in such high-minded terms, they risk hypocrisy. In the final weeks of September, Obama seemed to acknowledge this risk by admitting in an interview with CBS News that his campaign sometimes goes “overboard” and that this is something that “happens in politics.” Romney has refused to waver. “We’ve been absolutely spot on,” he told CNN.

The October debates will offer one of the last chances to expose falsehoods. “What debates are really good at is dispensing a caricature of the other side,” explains Kathleen Hall Jamieson, a communications professor at the University of Pennsylvania who helped found FactCheck.org. “Except for debates, you don’t get a lot of two-sided information.”

But when the final book is written on this campaign, one-sided deception will still have played a central role. As it stands, the very notions of fact and truth are employed in American politics as much to distort as to reveal. And until the voting public demands something else, not just from the politicians they oppose but also from the ones they support, there is little reason to suspect that will change. http://swampland.time.com/2012/10/03/blue-truth-red-truth/]
Along those lines,
Quote:

To find out who shaded the truth most, TIME asked each campaign for a list of its rival’s worst deceptions. After examining those claims and consulting independent fact-checking websites, we selected some of the most prominent falsehoods and prevarications of the 2012 campaign*—at least so far. Compared with the Obama campaign’s, the Romney operation’s misstatements are frequently more brazen. But sometimes the most effective lie is the one that is closest to the truth, and Obama’s team has often outdone Romney’s in the dark art of subtle distortion. On both sides, the dishonesty is “about as bad as I’ve seen,” says veteran journalist Brooks Jackson, director of FactCheck.org.

The lying game unfolds on many levels. Campaigns obfuscate, twist the truth and exaggerate. They exploit complexity. Most of all, they look for details—real or unreal—that validate our suspicions. There was no Obama “apology tour,” but the canard flourished because some voters are wary about his sense of American exceptionalism. If you read the whole paragraph, the President’s “You didn’t build that” riff seems a lot more reasonable, but context fell victim to a perception that Obama disdains free enterprise. Bain was never the beneficiary of a taxpayer bailout, and yet 75% of Americans believe the contrary, partly because Democrats have cast Romney as the kind of plutocrat for whom the rules are rigged. http://swampland.time.com/2012/10/03/who-lies-more-yet-another-close-c
ontest-obama-vs-romney/#who-lies-more-yet-another-close-contest


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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:05 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


This was interesting:

Quote:


To find out who shaded the truth most, TIME asked each campaign for a list of its rival’s worst deceptions. After examining those claims and consulting independent fact-checking websites, we selected some of the most prominent falsehoods and prevarications of the 2012 campaign*—at least so far. Compared with the Obama campaign’s, the Romney operation’s misstatements are frequently more brazen. But sometimes the most effective lie is the one that is closest to the truth, and Obama’s team has often outdone Romney’s in the dark art of subtle distortion.


This, in my opinion, is a good example of the kind of equivalence the media is guilty of. Identifying that one side lies more brazenly than the other but then bending over backwards to condemn both sides equally:

"But sometimes the most effective lie is the one that is closest to the truth, and Obama’s team has often outdone Romney’s in the dark art of subtle distortion."

Wtf is that? The dark art of staying close to the truth? And based on this the question of 'who lies most' is described as a 'close contest'. Ridiculous.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:11 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
This was interesting:

Quote:


To find out who shaded the truth most, TIME asked each campaign for a list of its rival’s worst deceptions. After examining those claims and consulting independent fact-checking websites, we selected some of the most prominent falsehoods and prevarications of the 2012 campaign*—at least so far. Compared with the Obama campaign’s, the Romney operation’s misstatements are frequently more brazen. But sometimes the most effective lie is the one that is closest to the truth, and Obama’s team has often outdone Romney’s in the dark art of subtle distortion.


This, in my opinion, is a good example of the kind of equivalence the media is guilty of. Identifying that one side lies more brazenly than the other but then bending over backwards to condemn both sides equally:

"But sometimes the most effective lie is the one that is closest to the truth, and Obama’s team has often outdone Romney’s in the dark art of subtle distortion."

Wtf is that? The dark art of staying close to the truth? And based on this the question of 'who lies most' is described as a 'close contest'. Ridiculous.

It's not personal. It's just war.



Absolutely. Their desperate need to feel like they're not taking sides, has led them to equate blatant, brazen lies with statements that are mostly true.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Wednesday, October 3, 2012 1:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
This was interesting:

Quote:


To find out who shaded the truth most, TIME asked each campaign for a list of its rival’s worst deceptions. After examining those claims and consulting independent fact-checking websites, we selected some of the most prominent falsehoods and prevarications of the 2012 campaign*—at least so far. Compared with the Obama campaign’s, the Romney operation’s misstatements are frequently more brazen. But sometimes the most effective lie is the one that is closest to the truth, and Obama’s team has often outdone Romney’s in the dark art of subtle distortion.


This, in my opinion, is a good example of the kind of equivalence the media is guilty of. Identifying that one side lies more brazenly than the other but then bending over backwards to condemn both sides equally:

"But sometimes the most effective lie is the one that is closest to the truth, and Obama’s team has often outdone Romney’s in the dark art of subtle distortion."

Wtf is that? The dark art of staying close to the truth? And based on this the question of 'who lies most' is described as a 'close contest'. Ridiculous.

It's not personal. It's just war.




Just ask Luke Russert, who'll inform you that "the Republicans will say..." and then insist that "both sides do it..."





"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Thursday, October 4, 2012 9:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I have to disagree, to a point. From what I've looked up, both sides DO lie, and yes, the Obama camp lies more "subtly" most of the time, if you will, but a lie/evasion/prevarication/omission is still a lie. It makes me angry that they have stooped to this shit, both because it's unnecessary and it diminishes their veracity.

Unquestionably, from what I've seen of clips and stuff, Romney's folks are FAR more blatant about it and should be taken to account for it--which of course they NEVER will be by FauxNews or talk radio, so their audience will never know. But the games the Obama camp is playing just puts them on the same level (in principle) and gives fodder to the other side. I wish they wouldn't do this crap.

And you know what? I'd far rather have sources that bend over backwards to show the flaws than sources which work HARD at lying, committing fraud and finding ways to avoid letting their audience see ANYTHING flawed. I can think for myself, and being presented with the flaws gives me a chance to do so.


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Thursday, October 4, 2012 2:18 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I'm not disputing that the Dems are also sometimes dishonest, or condoning it. But that doesn't mean that we should all play the equivalence game, or accept it when the media does. 'Who lies more' is a valid question, and 'it's a close contest' is a BS answer.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 7:29 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I disagree; I think that such things should be called on all sides--to do otherwise is to play FauxNews' game wherein one side is all evil and the other side is all good. Perspective is reality; it in no way means I don't condemn the blatant and numerous lies on the right, but I don't want the left portrayed as unilaterally the "good guys" either.

I'm not so blind, nor so partisan, that I can't handle the truth. And I'm GLAD that the left, most of the time, goes out of its way to point out reality. Would any of us REALLY want a FauxNews of the left??? Yeah, I know, some here will say MSNBC already IS, but that's not true--they certainly spin things their way, but not to anything like the degree FauxNews does.

One reason I prefer Daily Show; Stewart is quite content to skewer both sides. So it should be, IMHO.


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Friday, October 5, 2012 9:51 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


To be honest from your above post, I don't really see where we disagree.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, October 5, 2012 10:00 AM

STORYMARK


A case in point for this topic - after weeks of complaining that the polls are inaccurate, now that Romney is showing a bit of a bump - well golly, suddenly the polls are trustworthy!


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"We will never have the elite, smart people on our side." -- Rick "Frothy" Santorum


"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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