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Originally posted by Wishimay:
"But American College of Pediatricians President Michelle Cretella disagreed, telling KTXL that “having an authority figure teach the myth that a child can be trapped in the wrong body will potentially lead to fear that they aren’t the sex their bodies clearly indicate.”


Like I've said a MILLION times, "clearly indicated gender" ISN'T.

I've read a hundred times about a "girl" who had undescended testicles, or a "boy" who gets a period. Girls with no vagina, boys with a penis that's closer to a clitoris. Not to even start on the hormone imbalances that can cause you to COMPLETELY CHANGE GENDER, or your body can not recognize the hormones you have. That is without looking at structure and function of brains in gender areas, which can be radically different. Then what about all those Olympic athletes they have to do DNA tests to find out what they should be classified as... Seriously, there are over thirty of these kinds of things.

Unless you have a secret DNA decoder ring no one knows about...IT IS NONE OF YOUR UNEDUCATED BUSINESS. It should be between the kid's doctor, than that kid's FAMILY.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Olympic Athletes are 4 years old?

4 year olds have menstrual periods?

If the gender is uncertain, why does it need to be changed? If the gender was not changed, why broadcast to all fhe other 4 year olds it was converted?

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Originally posted by Wishimay:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Olympic Athletes are 4 years old?

4 year olds have menstrual periods?

If the gender is uncertain, why does it need to be changed? If the gender was not changed, why broadcast to all fhe other 4 year olds it was converted?

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I'm trying to say that gender isn't a clear thing to see in MANY PEOPLE. Including athletes, and even in people that have periods. Or ejaculations, for that matter.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
4 year olds on your planet are different than 4 year olds in our world.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

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Originally posted by Wishimay:

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Olympic Athletes are 4 years old?

4 year olds have menstrual periods?

If the gender is uncertain, why does it need to be changed? If the gender was not changed, why broadcast to all fhe other 4 year olds it was converted?

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I'm trying to say that gender isn't a clear thing to see in MANY PEOPLE. Including athletes, and even in people that have periods. Or ejaculations, for that matter.

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4 year olds on your planet are different than 4 year olds in our world.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
WISHY ....


There are children who're born with ambiguous genitals, and children who're born with ambiguous chromosomes, such as X0 (Tuner Syndrome), XXXX (triple, or rarely quadruple or pentuple X), (XXY, XXXY) Klinefelter Syndrome, XYY syndrome etc.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm

In such cases, doctors and parents often feel compelled to make a sex assignment at birth.

I don't know if the child in question is such a child. From the article, I doubt it.

IMHO, tho, I would leave sex assignment as late as possible in a child or young person's life, even if there are developmental or genetic abnormalities, at least until they have SOME idea of the social ramifications of being either sex. For a young child who has no secondary sex characteristics to speak of, dressing like a boy or a girl is enough for other children and even other adults to accept the child as the apparent sex. Performing surgery and injecting hormones into a young child, even if the child is obsessed with sexual identity, is showing very poor judgment IMHO. Children often grow out of their fixations with a particular gender, and reversing sex assignment isn't as easy as you make it sound. And although assigning a sex early is "easier", it is often a miataken assignment.

Our rigid division into "male" and "female" stereotypes is the real problem. When I was growing up, there were tomboys (girls who wore boys clothes and roughhoused) and there were sensitive boys (boys who liked to quietly play checkers and pretend-cook). Instead of pigeonholing children' bodies into these stereotypes and making them conform, can't we, as adults, be more open-minded? If there's a boy who wants to wear girl's clothes- so what? If there's a girl who wants to play rough, so what?

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Will it fall on SodomQueen's deaf ears?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:


In such cases, doctors and parents often feel compelled to make a sex assignment at birth.

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
. I don't even want to know

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From the article: “These kids who had never struggled with their gender identity before are all of a sudden scared they could be turned into a boy”

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Originally posted by Wishimay:

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
. I don't even want to know

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FINALLY, we get to the crux of the problem with you being oblivious. It's self-enforced!

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Originally posted by Wishimay:

And it's "deep-seated", genius

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Our rigid division into "male" and "female" stereotypes is the real problem. When I was growing up, there were tomboys (girls who wore boys clothes and roughhoused) and there were sensitive boys (boys who liked to quietly play checkers and pretend-cook). Instead of pigeonholing children' bodies into these stereotypes and making them conform, can't we, as adults, be more open-minded? If there's a boy who wants to wear girl's clothes- so what? If there's a girl who wants to play rough, so what?

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Why? They would be able to take advantage of the Wage Gap when they grew up and exert their Patriarchy on the other half of the species.

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Why? They would be able to take advantage of the Wage Gap when they grew up and exert their Patriarchy on the other half of the species.

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You joke, but that's actually what Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists argue: that mtf transgender women are evil predatory agents of the patriarchy, and that ftm transgender men are gender traitors.

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I've seen a lot of transgender people who are not at all happy with the SJW/Feminist agenda today. For instance, the claim that gender is a social construct. That offends a lot of transgendered people who believe that their gender was based off of biology and by labeling gender as a social construct you are essentially saying that it's all in their heads.

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:


And it's "deep-seated", genius

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Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm with anybody being able to do as they like if they aren't hurting anybody too. That being said, I'm not a fan of people trying to pass laws that can fine or even jail somebody who refuses to use the "proper" pronoun somebody wants to go by. Especially in the case of all of the weird pronouns like Zed and Zir or whatever they are. I view forcing everybody to have to use these pronouns by law as hurting them.

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Originally posted by Wishimay:


As usual, you don't understand anything. No one is making laws...

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Really, outside of that, what's the big deal? People shit talk other people everyday for a million different reasons. I got picked on a lot when I was a kid for being small and having glasses and braces. Nobody made laws against that. Forgive me if I don't sympathize with people who I think are just going out of their way to be abused.

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There are plenty of people in the real world who's company I don't or wouldn't enjoy. I do my best to avoid being around them whenever possible.

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Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class
as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end
of school year, KTXL said. ...

"But American College of Pediatricians President Michelle Cretella
disagreed, telling KTXL that “having an authority figure teach the
myth that a child can be trapped in the wrong body will potentially
lead to fear that they aren’t the sex their bodies clearly indicate.

... "Indeed, Karen England with the Capitol Resource Institute told
KHTK the “kindergartners came home very confused, about whether or
not you can pick your gender, whether or not they really were a boy
or a girl.”

OK. I'm confused too. If I have a 5-yr-old boy, take him to a surgeon
& have him changed into a girl ... I cannot comprehend any reason
I would do it. To me, that's nuts! Let the child grow up & make his/her
own gender choice.

I read the article & here's a comment posted below it:
"To subject kids to the transgender lifestyle at that age is wrong.
For the most part, they haven’t even begun to explore their sexuality
much less achieve a working level of knowledge on the subject. Kids
at that age shouldn’t have to deal with deviations from heterosexuality.
They should be allowed to just be children. BTW check out the stats
on trans suicides. Also, there is a Transgender PhD in Canada who
has a strong warning against catering to this mental defect rather
treating it."


... oooOO}{OOooo ...

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The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end of school year, KTXL said. Parents told KHTK-TV the student also changed clothes at some point during class.

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“my daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy.”

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Even the article, which has a pretty clear bias at the end, is clear that this child is simply changing clothes and hasn't had surgery.

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The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end of school year, KTXL said. Parents told KHTK-TV the student also changed clothes at some point during class.

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Because again, absolutely no one would do that or okay surgery on a five year old.

Also gender identity and sexuality are two entirely different things.

American College of Pediatricians is a political group, and they don't necessarily represent the entirety of the discourse, or the research, on the transgender question.

Last thing I'll say here:

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“my daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy.”

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Now imagine how trans identifying kids feel when they start to grow chest hair, or when they start to develop breasts and have their period. I should know. It's not very different from that.

That girl is cis-gendered. That is fine. She has a strong gender identity. Trans people feel the same way.

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Thanks for the input.
So you feel this change is driven entirely by the 5 year old?

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:

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Thanks for the input.
So you feel this change is driven entirely by the 5 year old?

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I don't know the five year old. But I do know that "trendy" parents who try to make their kids be trans tend to be both rare and fail miserably, as one might expect. It is impossible to force someone to embrace being contrary to their own nature for long term. Honestly, I think that's some Munchausen by Proxy bullshit, and I'll stand right beside the rest of you and denounce that if that was happening.

But I'll put this another way. I don't think this child would have proudly come out to the class as her new identity if she were being pressured into this by her parents, and I also don't think that the teacher would have been recommended these pro-trans books by an "anonymous" student if this wasn't legit.

Imagine if your parents had forced you to go to school dressed as a girl. You would have felt humiliated and violated, I imagine? You would have resented it and rebelled in whatever ways you could? You probably wouldn't have embraced it or drawn attention to yourself?

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Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Even the article, which has a pretty clear bias at the end, is clear that this child is simply changing clothes and hasn't had surgery.

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The 5-year-old student — born a male — was reintroduced to the class as a girl one day earlier this summer, just a few days before the end of school year, KTXL said. Parents told KHTK-TV the student also changed clothes at some point during class.

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Because again, absolutely no one would do that or okay surgery on a five year old.

Also gender identity and sexuality are two entirely different things.

American College of Pediatricians is a political group, and they don't necessarily represent the entirety of the discourse, or the research, on the transgender question.

Gender dysphoria is often comorbid with depression and suicidal ideation. Sometimes transitioning helps, sometimes it doesn't. A statistic indicating that trans people who have transitioned are more likely than the general population to suicide doesn't really tell anyone much - because they're already more likely to suicide before transitioning as well. There are also statistics of transitioned people who self report doing and feeling better, and I find that data to be more useful.

Last thing I'll say here:

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“my daughter came home crying and shaking so afraid she could turn into a boy.”

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Now imagine how trans identifying kids feel when they start to grow chest hair, or when they start to develop breasts and have their period. I should know. It's not very different from that.

That girl is cis-gendered. That is fine. She has a strong gender identity. Trans people feel the same way.

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I guess I don't understand what all of the fuss is about.

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I was a tomboy growing up; I dressed in boys clothes and we (a few tomboy girls) used to roughhouse with the boys and get into all kinds of mischief.

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I guess I don't understand what all of the fuss is about.- SIGNY

I feel the same way. There SHOULDN'T be a fuss about gender non-conforming. Kids should be allowed to figure out who they are, rather than told there's something inherently wrong with them when they're born with or develop something they can't change. Kids shouldn't bully other kids because they don't wear button up dresses to school, or be punished by adults and told that they need to try to be a lady just because they like climbing trees, when their own family members at a similar age are allowed. Same exact thing for kids who want to play with dolls, or wear dresses, or cook or sew.

WHY is this such a terrible thing to some people? Why do people react to this like the very idea is an offense to their own existence, or a threat to them? It's just kids being kids, people being people.

I'll grant you that maybe hearing all the times about transgender issues has gotten people to be annoyed or frustrated by it or feel imposed on, and I can get that. That's why I don't normally bring it up unless other people talk about it, and why I don't particularly give a damn about gender pronouns. I'll twinge a little uncomfortably when people call me a she, because in my experience, everything bad that has ever happened to me has been the result of being perceived as a she, but it's not like I'm going to get mad about it.

What I don't understand is the reaction that causes people to try to kill someone for nonconforming, or particularly nasty TERFs who tell people they should kill themselves.- BYTE

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I was a tomboy growing up; I dressed in boys clothes and we (a few tomboy girls) used to roughhouse with the boys and get into all kinds of mischief.- SIGNY

See, at five I would have agreed with you that I was a tomboy, that's even how I self-identified because I didn't have the words or concepts for any of this. I was even still calling myself a tomboy up until a few years ago.

There was just a few key differences. The first was how I felt so much resentment about how differently I got treated from boys.

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The second was feeling anxiety to the point of nausea at how everyone seemed to plan out my whole future for me. They told me that I would be a mother, that this was my only purpose in life, that I would somehow develop some nurturing instinct inherent in me out of nowhere, that I would eventually like babies and not see them as weird deformed tiny people resembling meatloaf ...

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... that I would somehow eventually become okay with the biological processes involved in child birth and child care, and random fluids dripping out of me for hormone reasons that I can't even control. It revolted me. It still does. - BYTE

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At the time, though my understanding of the other details didn't come until later, I was desperate to escape that fate and never have children - I hoped that I could by acting and dressing like a boy as much as I was allowed. By the time I was able to understand what a hysterectomy was, I wanted one, because then it could never happen.

Eventually I realized that this isn't actually something most other tomboys feel. Everyone always told me I was different in some way, I always felt it acutely growing up. Now I just have a word for what was different.

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Even in early grade school, when they were teaching us grammar and the grammarians said that if you were referring to generic "people" you should use the pronoun "he", I thought That's not fair . I didn't feel a GREAT deal of resentment, but it irked me every time.

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They never made a big deal about us getting married, never nagged us about having grandchildren for them. I didn't feel any special attraction towards having children, but since I ooohed and aaahed over kittens and puppies, that might have eventually xfered to human babies .... if I hadn't done so much babysitting in my teen years! In fact, because they were dealing with their own problems in our teen years (13-19) we were more-or-less left to raise ourselves, and our leaving the nest was a traumatic event that left us out of touch for a few more years. The only message we got about love and marriage is that we should "save ourselves for marriage". In many ways, I was pretty lucky because my upbringing was about as genderless as was possible back then.

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But at some point -maybe seven- I thought boys were big and stupid and loutish and smelly, and the LAST thing I wanted to do was pitch baseball cards against the school steps, or have to pee in a boys' bathroom.

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I also rather dimly realized at the time that I was luckier than some boys, because while I was allowed to dress like a boy and do boy-things, boys were not allowed to dress in girl clothes and do girl-things, and it seemed a bit unfair even to my young mind.

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So I guess my question to you is: Are you rebelling against the female role? Or do you see yourself as a male? Or perhaps as an androgyne or genderless?

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