Maybe I was wrong- poll shows George Bush is actually evil.... by chrisisall

Rap,
I'll agree that Rickker's post is a bit weak on substantial detail; however, I was wondering if you would care to address the time lines and content of the following:
110th CONGRESS 1st Session H. RES. 625

Censuring the President and Vice President.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.RES.625:

Summary:
SEC. 2. CENSURE BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

The House of Representatives censures President George W. Bush and Vice President Richard B. Cheney for--
(1) misleading the American people about the basis for going to war in Iraq;
(2) failing to plan adequately for the war;
(3) pursuing policies in Iraq that have strained our military and undermined our homeland security; and
(4) misleading the American people about the insurgency in Iraq.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:

The House of Representatives censures President George W. Bush and Vice President Richard B. Cheney for--
(1) misleading the American people about the basis for going to war in Iraq;
(2) failing to plan adequately for the war;
(3) pursuing policies in Iraq that have strained our military and undermined our homeland security; and
(4) misleading the American people about the insurgency in Iraq.

It's all bunk, every last word of it.
Saint Bush & his devine work are not to be questioned.
Leadb, why do you hate America and God?

Rapisall

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I do note for the record that this site lists Bill Clinton as being voted the "Most Good"; better even than Ghandi.

I can't believe peeps actually read more on the wacky site; this was originaly intended to be a jokey Bush-bashing thread...

But serious discussions can be born in strange places.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:12 AM

Auraptor, you asked for some, so here they are. Do me a favor, since you did ask, and I did spend a considerable amount of my morning typing this up, don't dismiss it like you did the earlier post that mentioned some of these things, with a word.

Note, these were all of the top of my head. I haven't even gone digging yet.

"You work three jobs? … Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." —President George W. Bush, to a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005

"In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them", he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, 'What would you say to Governor Bush?'" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "'Please,'" Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "'don't kill me.'" I must look shocked — ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel — because he immediately stops smirking. "

"Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be somewhere," Bush joked. "Nope, no weapons over there ... maybe under here?" (Bush pokes fun at himself at dinner)

But according to Rep. Jim Moran (D-VA), Bush was told that Webb’s son had a recent brush with death in Iraq and was warned to be “extra sensitive” when talking to the Sen.-elect. ThinkProgress yesterday spoke with Moran’s office and confirmed the congressman’s statement, first reported by hcc in VA:

“How’s your boy?” referring to Webb’s son Jimmy, who is serving in Iraq. Webb answered, “I’d like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President,” to which Bush responded, “That’s not what I asked you.” Webb then replied, “That’s between me and my boy, Mr. President.”

A paraphrase from the Authorized biogrophy of George W. by Robert Draper- to an aide after winning the Texas governorship bush is reported to have said "the blacks didn't come out for me like the hispanics did, so they aren't going to see much help from me."

.....................................
0:58 Andrew Card, having waited for a break in the reading, tells the president that a second plane has hit the second tower and it is confirmed that we are under attack (you can't hear it in audio, but it's pretty well accepted that this is what he said.)

1:00 - 1:10 The president sits still while students get their books.

1:10 - 1:45 The president sits still while students begin to drill.

1:45 - 4:25 The president picks up his book and the students continue to read.

4:25 - 4:30 The president, knowing we're under attack, tells jokes... "Really good. Wheawh! They must be sixth graders. "

5:14 - 6:00 The president takes questions, praises student's reading, talks about the importance of reading more than watching tv.
.........................................

"It was billed as a chance for the president to hear directly from the troops in Iraq. The White House called it a 'back and forth,' a 'give and take,' and so reporters who cover the White House were summoned this morning to witness a live video link between the commander in chief and the U.S. soldiers in the field, as the elections approach in Iraq.

"The problem was, before the event was broadcast live on cable TV, the satellite picture from Iraq was being beamed back to television newsrooms here in the U.S. It showed a full-blown rehearsal of the president's questions, in advance, along with the soldiers' answers and coaching from the administration.

today's encounter was billed as spontaneous. Instead, it appeared to follow a script."

defense secretary Allison Barber coaching the troops:

"If he gives us a question that is not something that we have scripted, Captain Kennedy, you are going to have that mike and that's your chance to impress us all. Master Sergeant Lombardo, when you are talking about the president coming to see you in New York, take a little breath before that so you can be talking directly to him. You got a real message there, ok?"

- on bush "Spontaneously" talking to the troops, all tin-ears to their concerns and fears, already personally scripted in what questions and answers he will be giving.

..............................

Where was Bush After Katrina?

- He was warned that this could be a major disaster.

- He was asked by Governor Blanco to declare a national state of emergency 2 days before it hit. In her request she asked for any and all aide.

- the Bush administration lied around the issue, saying they all read about it in the PAPER, telling them Katrina dodged a bullet. WTF?

- Bush decided to make it political. He demanded that Blanco relinquish all of the guard under her control, and when she didn't, he did nothing.

- It took bush 3 days before he flew over Katrina and landed for a staged photo-op.

- Even IF you want to pin the blame on Blanco for not relinquishing full control of her state to the feds in the time of crisis, that would not excuse this man who strummed while Katrina drowned.

Those are not simply Blancos people. Those are Bush's. He represents the country. If his people weren't getting what he thought they needed, and if he truly believed Blanco was standing in the way, why wasn't he calling press converences trying to draw attention to it? Why wasn't he in fucking New Orleans doing everything he could while still putting pressure on Blanco. Where was his outcry? The most powerful man in America who can get on t.v. at the drop of a hat, and he said nothing on the disaster? He called for nothing? He sat and played guitar?

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:46 AM

America loves a winner!

Rightious, you got it 180 degrees backwards on Katrina. I don't know where you got your info, but it's full of total b.s. Presidnet Bush asked BLANCO if she needed help, and SHE initially refused Federal aid.

There was no lying what so ever about Katrina. The storm HAD passed and nothing catastophic occured, until the next day, when the levees broke.

Blanco was the one who made it political. A woman Dem. Gov., she wasn't about to take orders from a male GOP President, until she absolutely had to.

It's the responsibility of the state and local officials to do all THEY can in such matters. They know the area, the needs of those closest to them far better than anyone in D.C. could imagine. To say Katrina and N.O. wasn't getting ENOUGH attention is asinine. That's ALL that was being covered by the major national media.

Your info is so far off on Katrina and N.O., I'm not gonna waste my time on the other nonsense you posted. All wrong, which isn't a shocker.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:48 AM

America loves a winner!

Leadb - all that is bunk. Sorry, but it is. Purely political muck raking by the far Left to ridicule the President.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 9:18 AM

Are you really going to tell me that for matters dealing with national disasters, the President has no role to play? Isn't he charged with the nation's security?

from time magazine, apparently.

The day the storm hit, she(blanco) asked President Bush for "everything you've got." But almost nothing arrived, and she couldn't wait any longer. So she called the White House and demanded to speak to the President. George Bush could not be located, two Louisiana officials told Time, so she asked for chief of staff Andrew Card, who was also unavailable. Finally, after being passed to another office or two, she left a message with DHS adviser Frances Frago Townsend. She waited hours but had to make another call herself before she finally got Bush on the line. "Help is on the way," he told her.

.........................

Edited to add,

I didn't say the media wasn't covering it. I said as our commander-in-Chief, bush has a responsibility to act in such a crisis. There was plenty he could have been doing, none of which he was.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 9:25 AM

and be fair and waste some more time than that. I just wasted a shit load on you.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 9:28 AM

Rap,
'Pure' muckraking. Ok, let's discuss one point. "(A) on September 25, 2002, President George W. Bush stated that `You can't distinguish between al Qa'ida and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror.';"
Folks later tried to claim Bush never linked Al Qa'ida and Saddam ; and everyone was so amazed that the public linked the two. Are you trying to say Bush was merely confused the day he made that comment? His handlers fed him bad lines? What?

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:32 AM

America loves a winner!

leadb - Bush was simply saying al Qaeda and Saddam were BOTH involved in global terrorism. Bush was absolutely correct. What you're attempting to do is paint Bush's remarks as saying Saddam was on equal footing w/ al Qaeda on ATTACKING THE USA, which he didn't say, nor did he even imply. For those who fabricate the link w/ respect to 9/11..... try opening your ears.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 11:38 AM

America loves a winner!

Oh, and because TIME MAGAZING says it, that's just how things were, right ? Sorry, that shit don't fly. Bush asked Blanco BEFORE the storm hit if he could mobilize the national guard into the city, and she refused ! Hell, by the time the storm hit, it was too LATE to move anything. You don't move convoys of trucks down roads when hurricane force winds are blowing trees, houses, cars all around, nor do you try to move when bridges are being washed out to sea. Un-fucking believable!

Sorry, but the Fed Gov't can't impose its will on a State when the state doesn't want help. All it can do then is respond, it can't act pro-actively. There are proper functions of Gov't at work here.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
leadb - Bush was simply saying al Qaeda and Saddam were BOTH involved in global terrorism. Bush was absolutely correct. What you're attempting to do is paint Bush's remarks as saying Saddam was on equal footing w/ al Qaeda on ATTACKING THE USA, which he didn't say, nor did he even imply. For those who fabricate the link w/ respect to 9/11..... try opening your ears.

Ears are open. And I hear a man trying very hard to mislead folks.

Thanks for replying; no need to bother responding to the other items on the record, you will simply have 'apologist rhetoric' to respond with.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:04 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
leadb - Bush was simply saying al Qaeda and Saddam were BOTH involved in global terrorism. Bush was absolutely correct. What you're attempting to do is paint Bush's remarks as saying Saddam was on equal footing w/ al Qaeda on ATTACKING THE USA, which he didn't say, nor did he even imply. For those who fabricate the link w/ respect to 9/11..... try opening your ears.
Ears are open. And I hear a man trying very hard to mislead folks.

Thanks for replying; no need to bother responding to the other items on the record, you will simply have 'apologist rhetoric' to respond with.

He didn't mislead me. I heard every damn word he said, and some how I didn't get any mixed messages. I think you WANT to blame him simply because he's Republican. That's where you tipping point starts and ends.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:18 PM

Didn't America have a law, that was at the time of Hurricane Katrina, that an American president can only intervene in a national disaster if the state governor gave permission?

It was my recollection that the president keenly asked a few times if he could intervene and the goverenor refused. Wouldn't that inaction then be the governor's or an America's law fault.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

He didn't mislead me. I heard every damn word he said, and some how I didn't get any mixed messages. I think you WANT to blame him simply because he's Republican. That's where you tipping point starts and ends.

I didn't say he misled you. Clearly, you are in tune with Bush and divine the wrong meaning from the spoken words. For 'fun', since this irritated me so much, I asked three people what this statement means `You can't distinguish between al Qa'ida and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror.' All three looked at me like I was nuts, but basically indicated that it meant there were no differences between the two; that either the Saddam was in al Qa'ida or was tightly 'engaged' with al Qa'ida. When reminded that Bush had said this prior to the war on Iraq, one remembered, but all three said (well, I'm making this PC so we don't offend any wee eyes watching) 'That's stupid'.

Now, if you really want to stand by your 'interpretation' of Bush's words, go for it. I'm willing to admit he might not have been 'trying' to mislead; but the language was clearly misleading. You may, if you wish, say he said what he meant poorly, or you may defend the words he used. In any case, I have to conclude one of two things, either you do not understand English, or you are pushing 'apologist rhetoric'.

As far as him being a Republican; couldn't care. The above statement is based on
1) Ears open.
2) A clear understanding of the English language.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:29 PM

I don't believe Sadaam had anything to do with 9/11. Sadaam wouldn't give any money away to terrorists becase he was to busy covering all of his belongings and toilets in gold.

After 9/11, making Iraq into a democracy was probably considered the best chance against defeating terrorism. Because Iraq was historically a leader in the middle east and their women were treated well and were allowed to freely no wear hajibs and were doctors, a democatic Iraq was probably hoped to be a leader in the region, which would influence other countries to stop contributing financially to terrorism, or instigating terrorism like Syria does with israel. When you get a leader, that is popular with people, then the influence spreads out to all parts of that country.

Lebanon was almost taken over by terrorists, and Palestine is currently led by terrorists.

Making Iraq into a democracy was probably easier and less bloody that fighting an ideology by invading 3 or 4 non democratic(even though they are said to be democratic) countries supporting terrorism.

The plan of making Iraq a democracy was probably not guarranteed to succeed, it was probably seen as the better option at the time (consider most people supported it in the polls at the start), to prevent another 9/11/. I agree it was slightly shifty way of attacking something that attacked America with the purpose of preventing another attack. It's kind of defense, but it's kind of not defense at the same time.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:41 PM

Too often, folks don't want to give Bush credit where credit is due. As such, I'd like to say the following.

I believe the US was fully justified in going into Afghanistan, and Bush took considerable political risk in leading the organization of an international force to do so and drive Osama and his friends from his relatively cozy situation. Doing this was appropriate and probably a 'net gain' against the terrorists. Give Bush a 'well done' for this in my book.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 2:49 PM

Yes, I imagine if Al Queda hadn't been forced from their cosy situation that terrorism and many more 9/11's would have followed. It is clear Bush did a good job with Afganistan and not having too many more 9/11 attacks proves that.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 3:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mazaen:

Making Iraq into a democracy was probably easier and less bloody that fighting an ideology by invading 3 or 4 non democratic(even though they are said to be democratic) countries supporting terrorism.

The idea that a Browncoat would endorse invading a sovereign country to influence world events in what MIGHT be a positive way scares the shit outta me. Praytell, what is the average schmuck on the streets capable of buying into, if any of us can follow this line of thinking?

The Alliance will be accepted with open arms, I fear....

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 3:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Too often, folks don't want to give Bush credit where credit is due.

Afghanistan went well, props for that. If they'd only stayed the course on THAT one....

*sigh*isall

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 3:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Leadb - all that is bunk. Sorry, but it is. Purely political muck raking by the far Left to ridicule the President.

See everyone? I told ya.
No matter what gorram thing you say, no matter what source or FACT, he will repell it with his pro-Alliance Scotch-Guard mentality...

No reason in the 'Verse can stop him!

Q: Did Nixon do anything wrong at Watergate?
A: Purely political muck raking by the far Left to ridicule the President.

Q: Did Carter mess up the rescue of the Iranian hostages?
A: Yes.

Q: Did Reagan give Oliver North free reign to back the malicious Contras with money from drug and arms sales?
A: Purely political muck raking by the far Left to ridicule the President.

Q: Did Clinton lie before Congress regarding his sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky?
A: Absolutely.

Q: Did Bush mislead the public with regard to Iraq's importance as a direct threat to the U.S.?
A: Purely political muck raking by the far Left to ridicule the President.

Please, peeps. He's drowning in a pool of his own convoluted, psuedo-objective bullshit.

Do him a kindness and just say, "Okay AURaptor, you're right. How could we have been so blind?"

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:46 PM

America loves a winner!

Chris....I know the facts are hard for you to accept, but accept them you must.

The sun does not revolve around the Earth.

Clinton did indeed have sexual relations with that woman, Ms Lewinsky, and then lied about it later.

Bush is not the bad guy.

It's really not that complicated.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:58 PM

The funny part is, Rap, that the point is not that Clinton didn't get a BJ and lie about it.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 7:49 PM

first, what is your source that said bush offered help, and was rebuffed. I gave one source saying that Bush was asked for help and that he said it was on the way.

Where are you guys getting your information?

I seem to remember there being a point of contention. Blanco asked for help...bush insisted that she relinquish control, instead of just giving the fucking help.

Now on the flip side, you could say blanco stubbornly held out instead of accepting what you might consider reasonable terms, but it has nothing to do with my point.

I didn't suggest, or mean that Bush should have broken any standing law involving the reach of his office. My argument goes to that fact that he didn't seem to give it a second thought. He didn't have much of a problem with not helping, roadblocks or otherwise. He simply ignored the issue, went about his day and his fundraising...etc.

He didn't try to apply political pressure...he didn't try to draw attention to a pugnatious governor standing in the way of real aid, he simply....

did nothing.

Which truly leads me to doubt any assumption you might make without pointing me to some hard evidence that Bush asked Blanco if she needed aid, repeatedly and was rebuffed.

Which "respectable" source are you using today Auraptor? Freerepublic, Limbaugh, Hannity, or your own ass?

.................

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 7:55 PM

oh my god Mazaen...how many terrorist attacks have happened on U.S soil?

That's a load of crap, pointing to no 9/11 since 9/11. 9/11 was such a big deal because nothing like that had happened before.

The Cole wasn't hit in the U.S. either, and nobody has a problem counting that one when you want to make a point about clinton. How many more terrorist attacks have we actually suffered in Iraq at the expense of Americans since 9/11 compared to before it. Answer that for me, brainiacs.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:32 PM

How would have you think 9/11 should have been approached Righteous 9.? It's good to get the ideas out there. I'm not going to critisise you and am interested to know different points of view.

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:40 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Personally, I would have told the country it was a great tragedy but that the US would rise to the challenge. And I would have gone to all the countries who sympathized (many around the world) and worked out policing agreements. And when it came to bin Laden, when the Taliban agreed to turn him over to the ICC I would have said fine - and not walked away before we had got him to justice.

***************************************************************
"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 8:50 PM

That's an interesting approach Rue. Maybe it would have been successful. It would have been less bloody than a war in Iraq/ Afganistan.

In 2001, the Taliban refused to hand over bin laden when the month deadline passed. What policies are you talking about- do you have any in mind? Are you saying that there should have been more time spent on getting the Taliban to hand over bin laden?

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Sunday, September 16, 2007 10:47 PM

PIRATENEWS

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Quote:

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—George DWI Bush

10 10 10 10 10

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Does that seem right to you?
www.scifi.com/onair/

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Monday, September 17, 2007 1:07 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

Righteous9 wrote:
Sunday, September 16, 2007 19:49

....He didn't try to apply political pressure...he didn't try to draw attention to a pugnatious governor standing in the way of real aid, he simply....

did nothing

Because of this mindless, idiotic hatred toward Bush, we're forced, again, to go over the facts. 2 + YEARS after the events. Unfuckingbelievable.

Statement on Federal Emergency Assistance for Louisiana

The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html

The storm made landfall on August 29th, or 2+ days after this Presidential declaration came out.

Sunday, Aug. 28 2005 - 1 Day Prior
9:30 a.m. - With wind speeds reaching 175 mph, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation of the city. The evacuation call comes only 20 hours before Katrina would make landfall – less than half the time that researchers had determined was necessary to evacuate the city.

—Gordon Russell, "Nagin orders first-ever mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," New Orleans Times-Picayune , 31 Aug 2005. http://www.factcheck.org/society/katrina_what_happened_when.html

8:30 p.m. - An empty Amtrak train leaves New Orleans, with room for several hundred potential evacuees. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way…The city declined, " said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. The train left New Orleans no passengers on board.

—Susan Glasser, " The Steady Buildup to a City's Chaos," The Washington Post, 11 Sept 2005. http://www.factcheck.org/society/katrina_what_happened_when.html

While some reporting of the events prior and after Katrina's landfall were confused and contradictory, honest mistakes were clearly made. Comments about the timeline of events were reported as fact, and then later retracted and corrected. Example - A story from the Washington Post incorrectly stated that Gov Blanco had not declared a state of emergency for LA, when she had indeed done that back on Aug 26th. The retraction by the Post came on Sept. 4th.

However, what the President DID try to do,and was blocked by Blanco, is another issue.....

" Apparently, the Administration tried to persuade the governor of Louisiana, Kathleen Blanco, to issue an official request that the federal government take control of the Louisiana National Guard and the New Orleans police, but she refused, out of pride or mistrust or a desire to maintain some degree of control. "
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/gaynor/050928
( quoting Nicholas Lemann, in a comment posted on September 19, 2005 in The New Yorker's "The Talk of the Town )

As you can see from above, none of the facts I came up with were from Rush, FreeRepublic, Hannity or my own ass. From where do you get YOUR facts, I wonder.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, September 17, 2007 4:54 AM

and none of them have any bearing on my point...

except the one from Whitehouse.gov, and frankly, Auraptor, I'd take your ass as a more reliable source,

but I'll take this one at face value, and assume it came on the day that it says it came.

My question, I'll ask again. Where was Bush? What was he doing? Is delegation enough in the face of such a disaster? Why 3 days before he got down there? Why no personal meeting with Blanco before that, if they were at odds with how to deal with the crisis?

Why did aid seem to come so late from the feds if it was all in motion already?

.................................

As an aside, Nagin may have declared a state of disaster too late for a full evacuation. Many, many democrats infact have a dislike for the man, though I don't know much about him. but is that to suggest that he acted irresponsibly, or that he got the information that this was infact going to be a bad one too late to make the call earlier?

On another note, inspite of a train here and there leaving without being full, or the busses that were parked, unused, things which should be, and were looked at, 90 percent of the residents were evacuated from South East Louisiana, apparently an unprecedented success rate of evacuation,

edited...

though, not good enough, as it sounds like the preparations for those who had no means to evacuate on their own, was lacking sorely.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 5:17 AM

From wikipedia ---

[edit] Presidential role

President Bush observes damage from Hurricane Katrina over New Orleans, August 31.Bush was on vacation at his home in Crawford, Texas[13][14] when Katrina made landfall on August 29. During his appearance at the Navy base, which was primarily for the purpose of celebrating recent triumphs in Iraq, the Commander in Chief urged his fellow citizens to call an 800 number to make donations to hurricane relief.

Early Tuesday morning, August 30, a day after the hurricane struck, President Bush attended a V-J Day commemoration ceremony at Coronado, California.[15] 24 hours before the ceremony, storm surges began overwhelming levees and floodwalls protecting the city of New Orleans, greatly exacerbating the minimal damage from rainfall and wind when the hurricane itself veered to the East and avoided a direct hit on New Orleans.[16] Initial reports of leaked video footage of top-level briefings held before the storm claimed that this video contradicted Bush’s earlier statements that no one anticipated the breach of the levees.[17] Transcripts revealed that Bush was warned of possible overtopping of the levees.

The New York Times, describing the President's reaction in a September 1 speech, said, "Nothing about the President's demeanour yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis."[18] Bush was also criticised for not breaking off his vacation until Wednesday afternoon, more than a day after the hurricane hit on Monday.[19] Conservative Bloggers and the Fox News Channel claimed that on the morning of August 28, the president telephoned Mayor Nagin to "plead" for a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans, and further claimed that Nagin and Gov. Blanco decided to evacuate the city only in response to that request. These claims, though widely reproduced, were never substantiated: Blanco told reporters that Bush had called and spoken with her (but not Nagin) only minutes before the already-scheduled press conference.[20]

.............

remember that the reason we've retreaded all this ground is to establish how this man just doesn't seem to be moved by suffering. He couldn't even be physically moved from his home by it.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 5:36 AM

America loves a winner!

Rightious, you're simply not ever going to get it. Where was BUSH? Where the hell was the mayor ? What the hell was the Governor doing ??? THEY are the most responsible and in charge here, not the President. Of what purpose would it serve to have him down there right after the disaster? Roads were down, power was down, and the authorities had their hands full trying to rescue folks and assess the situation. Taking man power to set up a Presidential motor cade and security would have only gotten in the way, and taken focus OFF of the S&R operations which were ongoing. Hell, the President has no magical powers,where he can show up, wave a wand, and make things all better. WTF are you even thinking ???

To answer you question fully, the answer is no. The President has no inate responsibility to 'show up', take charge and run the rescue operations from the local command post. He met w/ the relevent authorities before hand, set the things in motion which were reasonble for the situation at hand, and waited to see where the storm would go and what it would do. That's ALL anyone can do at that level! Nagin had a plan, and failed to deploy it. He had buses, and failed to use them - they became useless pieces of junk. He had trains available which he refused to use, because he was too incompetent to do a damn thing about it.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, September 17, 2007 5:49 AM

well we're still talking about different things, aren't we.

I'm talking about his visible lack of concern for the people in the disaster.

and he is responsible for his appointees jobs. If they are doing a shitty job, then he is.

Point fingers at Nagin and Blanco all you want, it would not excuse him for the lack of oversight of his own people, or his own attitude, which I'll remind you a second time, was the point of our back and forth, not who had more responsibility for the wreck that was Katrina relief.

...........

on edit,

I'll give credence to your point about the president arriving in New Orleans in person. It's only fair, and it did cross my mind. My question about him meeting with

Blanco is more a sense of my problem with his use of time during hte disaster. It certainly did cross my mind that that may not literally be the best way to conduct things.

but instead we have a situation, where she couldn't even get in touch with him. WTF is that? He was not available during a crisis? In this modern technological era, the only other time I can think of where the president was completely unreachable is....

oh yeah,

9/11.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 6:18 AM

Folks,
One question to ask yourself, if the levees had held, how upset would you be with what Bush did or didn't do?

I've pondered this, and while I will agree that Bush could have done more, what he did do was in the realm of reasonable and prudent. Of course, there is some of the 'buck stops here' (or should) that Bush is at the top of the food chain, and thus holds some responsibility. In this case, I must agree with Rap that the -bulk- of the blame here rests with local, county (parish, whatever they call it), and state government.

Now, if we want to get into reconstruction discussions ... ;-)

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Monday, September 17, 2007 6:37 AM

that may be an agreement with auraptor, but is in no way what premise of the discussion is about. I wasn't interested, in my rehashing of Katrina, in pointing out that Bush did a worse job than the locals. It's aside the point.

What part in your opinion was reasonable about his response though? Going about his day? throwing a phone number into one of his speeches?

1400 people died in that mess.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 6:40 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
1400 people died in that mess.

How many of those 1400 people were asked to evacuate but chose to stay?

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Monday, September 17, 2007 6:43 AM

don't know...don't know what that has to do with anything.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 7:12 AM

Actually, I tend to agree with BND on that; it does matter.

To me the real issue is; what did the staties or below ask for from the feds which was not provided in a reasonable time frame? If the answer is 'nothing', then Bush 'did his job'. I'd give him a c+ or a b-.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 7:14 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
1400 people died in that mess.

How many of those 1400 people were asked to evacuate but chose to stay?

Yeah cause being poor, on wellfare, unable to afford gas, not having a vehicle, having no where to go, being in a nursing home and unable to pull yourself up out of your deathbed and walk out of N.O. - those are just excuses for CHOOSING to stay behind and die in flood waters and extreme heat with no available water or sanitation.

I am amazed at the deliberate obtuseness evidenced by this thread.

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Monday, September 17, 2007 7:40 AM

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Yeah cause being poor, on wellfare, unable to afford gas, not having a vehicle, having no where to go, being in a nursing home and unable to pull yourself up out of your deathbed and walk out of N.O. - those are just excuses for CHOOSING to stay behind and die in flood waters and extreme heat with no available water or sanitation.

Yeah, too bad there were no buses or trains to help relocate those unable to do so themselves. People had other alternatives and chose not to take them. Short of physically throwing them on a bus against their will, what would you have done differently?

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
I am amazed at the deliberate obtuseness evidenced by this thread.

I am amazed at the inability to seperate passion from reason evidenced by this thread.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 7:54 AM

America loves a winner!

This amplifies my point that we're talking in circles here. You think the President is suppose to get on camera, bite his lower lip, wipe a tear from his eyes and then wring his hands to show he CARES for those affected by the storm. In my mind ,that's nothing but useless photo op b.s. I say he's suppose to keep a level head, assist as best he can and work with the local authorties in getting them what they need. When THEY fail to communicate, he can't do their job for them!

And wtf does 'oh yeah, 9/11' have to do with anything ?

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, September 17, 2007 7:57 AM

Seriously, the issue to me, as it was stated back before Auraptor asked me to clarify, is that Bush is an uncaring son-of-a-bitch,

and even if we were to go as far wrong as to say that Bush and his cronies provided everything they were asked for and then went about their day, buying shoes, standing in line at restaraunts, resting in Crawford,

that would still prove my point. He isn't invested in the lives of the people he "represents." It's not a matter of what he had to do, its a matter of what he could have done, its a matter of what he was interested and invested in doing.

......................

actually, all the shit you listed sounds like a good way to go for me auraptor.

I never suggested he get in front of the camera, unless he thought he could have affected the direction of the situation by doing so, but it seems to me, from the stuff I've read and posted, taht he was not infact, active in the areas you suggest he should be.

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Monday, September 17, 2007 8:04 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Righteous9:
1400 people died in that mess.

How many of those 1400 people were asked to evacuate but chose to stay?

That's part of the problem. Everyone down in N.O. knew the city was a disater waiting to happen. It's under the sea level, and generations have known that when 'the big one ' hits, it could get ugly. Biblically ugly. No one who lives in the area DOESN'T know this fact. Some say they have no way of getting out, and I say b.s. They didn't WANT to move, or worse, they were WAITING for someone to come by and get them out. When the city /state failed to act, and Nagin 'asked' them to leave, it was too late. Hell, there was even one story of a 15 yr old kid who stole a school bus ( before it got flooded out ) and drove his familly and kin to Texas. Dunno if he faces any charges, because he did what his Gov't wouldn't do, and that's enact the evacuation plan to get citizens out of harms way.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, September 17, 2007 8:12 AM

Righteous...
Good point; this was the original concern you expressed...
"I hate him because he shows a genuine lack of humanity with just about everything he does. He has a tin ear for suffering."
That's a tough one. So you are saying you expect folks in public office not to do shoe shopping on their own time during national disasters, even if there is nothing meaningful for them to be doing at the time?

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Monday, September 17, 2007 8:24 AM

I expect that there is something meaningful they could be doing.

I expect taht they are tied in enough to know what those things would be, too.

Do you really believe there was nothing people could be doing?

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Monday, September 17, 2007 9:06 AM