Students, professors to protest education cutbacks by Niki2

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Just a quick reply and then gone - but all those THINGS you point to as an example of resources - electricity and light bulbs, buildings and clean halls, computers and chalk, and invention - are a result of - somebody's effort. Iron is just a rock in the ground until somebody mines it, somebody transports it, somebody smelts it, somebody designs it, somebody machines it ... Those 'things' don't grow on trees ready to be plucked. They aren't found in nature. They are the crystallized work of many people. It still comes back to the 'resource' of people.

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Silence is consent.

and that effort is rewarded with cash

without it, cho wouldn't get no effort for long lady...

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Friday, March 5, 2010 5:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
With limited resources why train people in skill sets that statistical studies would reveal to be not in demand ?
WHAT limited resources?

Sure we're short of food, water, trees, wildlands, clean air and clean ocean. But we're not short of people. People train people. People learn from people. THAT we have plenty of!

Tax money to pay said people....

or will they work for free

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Friday, March 5, 2010 7:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

And where does that shortage of money come from, Gino? Is there an absolute lack of money??? Not enough dollar bills floating around?

Why do we have jobs that need to be done - like teaching- AND unemployment?????

There are more than enough people to do everything that needs to be done, and more. The only thing that is keeping us from being able to do that is those who control the money control US.

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 4:41 AM

Gino: I really enjoy many things you have to say, but you've lost me here. Rant to ensue, sorry for the rantiness. I mean no disrespect.

My understanding: communist china worries quite a bit about how many people are doing the important jobs. Over there, according to much I've read and heard from Chinese friends, you train for and do what the govt tells you to do. Myself, I'd prefer to major in the wrong thing and change my field later, even if my mistake costs me some misery along the way (as it did).

As for what it costs the students: the high price of education in general is to blame, not a few particular majors you happen to dislike.

As for what these "wasted" degrees cost the economy: I imagine that if everyone studying those "useless" subjects quit, the universities would go belly up. The institutions need that tuition money, even if most of it comes through loans. Go after the loans and costs, not the majors.

As for the unimportance of knowledge: no one is God, and no one knows what education will serve a person later in life, even if it was gotten through a major they moved away from. Primarily, it may serve them through happiness, which I put a higher value on than income. You seem to dismiss the importance of "happiness" without a second throught. What's wrong with someone having a damned good time obtaining knowledge they love? It's not something you have an opportunity to do later in life, might as well when you're 20. Sure, puts you in debt. Again, blame the costs, not the knowledge.

As for combining majors: I can't speak for the other pairings you mentioned, but combining physics and engineering is ridiculous. Sure, for one you need some of the other, but to build a useful level of expertise you have to focus not just on one topic, but on a narrow part of it, exclusively. Either that or stay in school for 20+ years. I took 11 years for me to learn my general topic and specialty, and that barely scratched the surface.

Finally, the whole idea of removing the possibility of failure from anything creeps the hell out of it. The basis of the American Dream (not real one, not this corporate/advertising/lawsuit bullshit that's taken over) is that you make your own choices, even if they're bad ones. That's freedom, and that's a free market. If enough people want to study basket weaving, the market will be there to train them and that's as it should be. These students can fulfill their dreams, find out that their dreams were idiotic, than go off older and wiser and better able to find something useful to do.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 8:16 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Well said, Mal. Wasn't Russia like that, too, at least at one time? I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but I seem to have seen that in movies. I found it really scary. Creating automatons for the work force, irregardless of the PERSON inside.

And I love how you explained it:

Quote:
As for the unimportance of knowledge: no one is God, and no one knows what education will serve a person later in life, even if it was gotten through a major they moved away from. Primarily, it may serve them through happiness, which I put a higher value on than income. You seem to dismiss the importance of "happiness" without a second throught. What's wrong with someone having a damned good time obtaining knowledge they love? It's not something you have an opportunity to do later in life, might as well when you're 20. Sure, puts you in debt. Again, blame the costs, not the knowledge.

What I'd LIKE to say, if I had the communication skills you showed.

Human beings are more than fodder for the work force, they are complex creatures with talents and imagination. I wish we would foster that rather than only let them study what's useful to the rest of human society.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 10:20 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I just had a long discussion with my husband. Always starts out with me saying how amazed I am by this place, the variety of positions and beliefs, how much more knowledgeable people are here than I and how much I learn from both them and from looking up arguments I want to make or believe in, ending up spending hours on the internet and learning from that as well.

We got into education, and the debate between liberal arts being valuable versus just taking classes in a major.

He got his degree from San Jose state, and explained about the best course he ever took. The professor had them do nothing but read: Anything they wanted to read, as long as they could justify it. They then wrote a report on what they read, and gave him a 3x5 card with information about the book to add to his library.

Jim was a business major, and ended up Vice President of the Round Table Franchise...he never went anywhere outside business. But he states flatly that he is a big proponent of liberal arts for many reasons, among them the widening of horizons, the chance to explore, and the possibility of stumbling across something that intrigues the student and makes them change their direction.

Now that professor would well be considered a kook and not worth his salary to many who advocate not having anything but "useful" classes available. His experience and beliefs make the case a number of us are making, in my view.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Gino: I really enjoy many things you have to say, but you've lost me here. Rant to ensue, sorry for the rantiness. I mean no disrespect.

My understanding: communist china worries quite a bit about how many people are doing the important jobs. Over there, according to much I've read and heard from Chinese friends, you train for and do what the govt tells you to do. Myself, I'd prefer to major in the wrong thing and change my field later, even if my mistake costs me some misery along the way (as it did).

As for what it costs the students: the high price of education in general is to blame, not a few particular majors you happen to dislike.

As for what these "wasted" degrees cost the economy: I imagine that if everyone studying those "useless" subjects quit, the universities would go belly up. The institutions need that tuition money, even if most of it comes through loans. Go after the loans and costs, not the majors.

As for the unimportance of knowledge: no one is God, and no one knows what education will serve a person later in life, even if it was gotten through a major they moved away from. Primarily, it may serve them through happiness, which I put a higher value on than income. You seem to dismiss the importance of "happiness" without a second throught. What's wrong with someone having a damned good time obtaining knowledge they love? It's not something you have an opportunity to do later in life, might as well when you're 20. Sure, puts you in debt. Again, blame the costs, not the knowledge.

As for combining majors: I can't speak for the other pairings you mentioned, but combining physics and engineering is ridiculous. Sure, for one you need some of the other, but to build a useful level of expertise you have to focus not just on one topic, but on a narrow part of it, exclusively. Either that or stay in school for 20+ years. I took 11 years for me to learn my general topic and specialty, and that barely scratched the surface.

Finally, the whole idea of removing the possibility of failure from anything creeps the hell out of it. The basis of the American Dream (not real one, not this corporate/advertising/lawsuit bullshit that's taken over) is that you make your own choices, even if they're bad ones. That's freedom, and that's a free market. If enough people want to study basket weaving, the market will be there to train them and that's as it should be. These students can fulfill their dreams, find out that their dreams were idiotic, than go off older and wiser and better able to find something useful to do.

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hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

I wasn't suggesting combining majors or any crap like that, we were talking about taking non related classes

People can be free to fulfill idiotic dreams, that is well and good...

but does government have a role in helping people fulfill idiotic dreams is my point...

If enough people want to study basket weaving, they can have at it... just not supported by tax revenues

As for " universities would go belly up "

there is a waiting list a mile long, kids who can't get into programs that lead to something down the road... why not expand enrollment for them ? Make those programs more available ?

Go ahead, make bad choices... you are still free to do so. Why should I have to help pay for that ?

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 12:19 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

Just an example of you never know what you'll get when you select a major. The CEO of the bank where I work is an Agricultural Sciences major from NC State.

Yet he has successfully guided a small eastern NC bank for the past 25 years, through expansions to most of the eastern part of the state from one branch in a very small town and now through the minefield of the banking crisis that we're now in. All the while staring at Bank of America, Wachovia (now bought by Wells Fargo) and other big mega banks right across the road.

I've also heard him say that he doesn't care what you majored in, just the fact you graduated proved to him that you could LEARN. And most of the original employees (many are still with the bank and have corporate level jobs) have a generalized business degree or in one or two cases just a high school diploma.

And yes, on Thursday he left early (around 4:45-he usually works way beyond every one else) to go home to plant his spring broccoli.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 12:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

It seems to me that a government- particularly a democratic government- has an interest in a generally well educated population. And in my view, knowledge is never wasted.

Nobody knows what knowledge will do someone good. Maybe they learn about themselves or their family. Maybe they learn how to make pretty things. Maybe they learn about history. In my hubby's case, he's a polymath. His degree is in philosophy. But what that degree did was teach him how to think, and from that he became an expert in both analog and digital electronics and machine-level programming, and has spent the past 30 years designing advanced research instrumentation for research chemists who need to measure things that have never been measured before.

I supervise 12 people (soon to be 13) and I encourage them all to get as much information as possible, even if it's not directly job-related. And from that my peeps have gotten involved in programming, policy, economics... makes them much more effective.

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 1:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Well said, Mal. Wasn't Russia like that, too, at least at one time?

Certainly. I think of little girls with good feet and bendy backs that got pushed into the Kirov. Made for some great ballerinas, but not for a lot of choice in lifestyle.

I thought of China first because I recently read a Pearl S. Buck novel about Chinese women raised in America going back in the 50s and 60s. Definitely a story about freedom of choice and what happens when you don't have it. The Chinese govt saw humans as cogs in their machine, and placed them for the good of the country. Absolutely stifling.

And thank you for the compliment! If I'm being eloquent, blame the painkillers. Broken bone last week - got it set yesterday. Ouchy. I'm having a lazy druggy day. :)

Gino: You confuse me. You brought up women's studies and said it shouldn't be a standalone major, but combined with something else. Then you immediately listed a bunch of other topic combinations. You really just meant taking some broad range of classes? Um... isn't that what people do, in undergrad at least? It's kind of required, at least at every school I've experienced.

Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on how much of our tax money actually goes to what you'd deem "worthless" education. I bet it's less than you think. Doesn't the govt mostly loans that get paid back? Sucks for the loanees with the debt, but that part is not coming out of your pocket in a permanent way. As for any money that might be fully given away as grants, perhaps it is a shame that you can't choose the recipient. I sure as hell wish I could get back all of my money that went, and is still going, to Halliburton and Blackwater. That was a helluva lot more than what all the Philosophy and Literature and Arts majors cost us!

And at least we get something back from education. Look what ignorance gets us - George Bush and Sarah Palin. Our only hope is to get people into school so they'll stop voting for idiots. You may not like folk's choice of major, but at least they're attempting to learn to think. That's never a bad thing. Unless you're George or Sarah or Dick.

But besides all that, I come back to the idea of the government controlling our ability to choose. I think it's completely whacked to hand over that power, even if it makes you feel better about paying your taxes. I wouldn't feel at all good about giving a dime to a govt that would tell us what to do with our lives, because being a useful cog and earning top dollar is more important than any personal goals. (Do you really think that? Or am I misunderstanding your point?)

I do heartily agree with what you said about yoru math teacher. I teach with many who did all those education degrees but have no idea about applied knowledge. Of course I'm biased, but it seems so much more useful to learn how to actually do shit before you teach. I may not know the catch phrases for various teaching techniques, but I can bring up cool real-life examples of just about anything, and that's what kids really respond to.

I mean, some teachers will argue all day about multiple choice versus true/false. How important is that, really?

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 3:26 PM

The topic of the thread ( where it all started )

was protests to the state gov for cutting back on the funding they put to the university

if it isn't that much money, then it isn't that big of a deal... problem solved

My point over the womans studies, is taking a class or two in it good... taking a full degree program in it bad

you say it is important to have the freedom to do it anyway... that is fine, but do it on your own dime or better... have the interest groups that support such programs kick in cash. You want Jewish studys, perhaps a rabbi school is the place for you, etc...

Halliburton and Blackwater, useless wars, pork barrelling politicos

all useless, but not the subject at hand...

state gov education funding... with the state in question almost bankrupt yet pinned by its own rules and unable to change its circumstances ( the super majority crap )

until that changes... what do you do

put what cash you have to where it does the most good...

Rue and Signy want to change society, and that being well and good is short term unrealistic... without a bloody revolution anyway, and even then I suspect they would lose.

Federal issues aside, the state needs to get its house in order, and providing services is top on that list. Roads need fixing, cops need to be paid, etc

I further say to stretch what funding goes into education at this time needs to be targeted

" Anyway, I'd like to see some stats on how much of our tax money actually goes to what you'd deem "worthless" education. "

I'd love to see that too

plus I'd also want to see employment stats for grads in said programs going back say ten years...

did they find work related to their field of study, were they able to repay their loans, where they are related to the poverty level, etc

those stats I think would settle this, in addition entry student should be made aware of those stats when choosing programs...

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Saturday, March 6, 2010 3:51 PM

I was certainly made aware of job stats when I started college. You think students aren't? This information is readily available. Again, what you don't seem to realize is that not everybody goes to college in search of the highest paycheck possible. And that's not a bad thing.

Back to CA: before the state went bust it was known as a damned fine university system to work for. That environment brought in a lot of good people, which led to some fantastic research that brought in tons of federal funding and got the whole explosion of Silicon Valley started.

What bankrupted CA was not the education system, and the fact that it's on the chopping block now just shows tremendous short-sightedness. The giveaways to business and utilities are where Arnold should start, except that business and utilities have the govt and court system by the balls.

So, Gino what you're after with cutting out whatever schooling you don't like may be fun to fantasize about, but it wouldn't save anything. It'd be like me "fixing" my own budget by buying regular coffees rather than lattes every morning, never mind that I'm paying out a lease on a new sports car and rent on a fancy downtown apartment. (Hypothetically speaking, of course. I have none of these things!)

Worse, your solution as you've presented in previous posts would destroy some pretty basic freedoms.

ETA: A better analogy would have been me eating at McD's every day to save money. Would save relatively little compared to my other expenses, and also would leave me fat, unhealthy, and covered in zits. Much better to invest in being healthy! Yes, I think education makes people healthier. Mentally.

ETA2: The fact that you don't find women's studies or Jewish studies worth a full major is another can of worms I'm trying very hard not to open.... can't resist... So you think that only research that very specifically relates to *you* should be supported by our government? What are you, PN?

(And where's Niki with a cuckoo!cuckoo! emoticon when I need one?)

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Sunday, March 7, 2010 8:18 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
It seems to me that a government- particularly a democratic government- has an interest in a generally well educated population. And in my view, knowledge is never wasted.

It's also been proven again and again that raising the level of education in a country raises the quality of life and improves the country in question.

Quote:
Look what ignorance gets us - George Bush and Sarah Palin. Our only hope is to get people into school so they'll stop voting for idiots. You may not like folk's choice of major, but at least they're attempting to learn to think.

BINGO! The biggest thing education does is widen one's horizons and hopefully help one learn to think, reason, wonder, question.

Right here Mal:

--take your pick!

Sympathies on broken bones, poor baby; whadya break? How bad? What's recovery time? I sympathize deeply, trust me; gone through two operations and loooong recovery on a bad wrist break/ligament tear...and after all of that, it will still never be the same! Hope yours were clean and heal well, and hey, enjoy those drugs!!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10uorw]

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Sunday, March 7, 2010 9:49 AM

Broke a bone in my foot. Luckily not near my ankle, so I should be at least able to hobble soon. But the pin in the bone is not the funnest.

Learning how to think... I know very well that most of my students won't use the particulars of my class again. What I hope sticks is the basic approach to problem solving: what do I know, what do I need to know, how do I get there, and how do I know if I'm wrong? It's shockingly hard to get them to think in these terms, but it's worth trying. Who knows what it'll help them get through in the future.

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Sunday, March 7, 2010 4:16 PM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ouch, ouch and double ouch! I sympathize with the pin; they put this metal "claw" in my wrist, and it was awful. It's almost lucky they found the torn ligament, 'cuz it meant they had to go back in, and in doing so, it was healed enough they could remove the claw. I don't know how I would have lived with that thing, it was damned painful!

Hope you recover soonest, and your students are VERY lucky. Too many teachers/professors don't give a damn...too many teachers have class sizes that are too big and classes with unmanageable students; I think you're probably in the minority. Nonetheless: YES! That's one of the most important things about education; if we're lucky, it teaches us to think, question and learn different ways of being.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, March 7, 2010 4:36 PM

Claw? Eh! Sounds awful! Ligament damage is the worst. I'm actually pretty lucky with this one - clean break and all.

The circumstances at my school are pretty good. I'm able to care more than many teachers can. Which is why it confuses me that we need to cut back on education spending and not defense. Speaking of stats I'd like to see: how many teachers can we hire by building one less F16 or 1 less U-bomb? How much would class sized be decreased if we hadn't invaded Iraq?

I know, obvious hippy talking points. And yet, still so relevant.

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Monday, March 8, 2010 6:59 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hah! Silly person, what a question! America put education ahead of military might? Poor baby; have you seen someone about those delusions? Yeah, you MUST be one of those damned hippies Wulf hates so much! Shees...

I'm glad your school is like that, it's always really a good feeling to hear about one that is, so few are (or are able to be!).

As to the ligament, yes, I agree. It will always be malformed and always hurt, I've finally accepted that. My only wish is that it had been the left...sigh. Sux. But it, and other things, could be SO much worse, I can't complain.

Last two years: did physical therapy for that, now been in PT for seemingly AGES for achilles tendonitis, with a short break in the middle to try PT for degenerative disc disease--which made it TEN TIMES worse so I quit and went back to the tendon.

Pfffft...getting old SUXXXXX!!!

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, March 8, 2010 5:15 PM

Well... big caveat that I teach at a private school. The parents pay a lot for the attention their kids get. It's a shame. Every school, public or private, should be able to do this: I feel reasonably informed about every kid I teach. Not just academics, but their social and home lives. Enough that I understand why they might be having hard times so I can work with them.

I wish it didn't take a big tuition to make it happen. I can imagine what a difference it would have made for me if I'd had this kind of support and attention in high school.

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 8:45 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Oh, heavens: AMEN to every word. I wish I knew what we could do to bring our education standards back up aside from big tuitions and private schools. When I was young California had one of the highest educational standards of anywhere; now, it's pathetic.

You keep doing what you're doing, kiddo; we need every one of you we can get to help turn out well-rounded kids who've learned how to learn and how to think!

And take care of that foot, eh?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Tuesday, March 9, 2010 9:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"America put education ahead of military might?"

Or prisons ? What could we be thinking !!???

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Saturday, January 30, 2021 10:30 AM

Fed Up Parent EXPLODES on VA School Board: "You Should All Be Fired!

https://rumble.com/vdbkft-fed-up-parent-explodes-on-va-school-board-yo
u-should-all-be-fired.html

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Saturday, October 23, 2021 10:18 AM

Sen. Hawley, other Republicans blast FBI for targeting outspoken parents at school board meetings
https://www.djournal.com/news/national/sen-hawley-other-republicans-bl
ast-fbi-for-targeting-outspoken-parents-at-school-board-meetings/article_71b2c942-4dd0-520a-8db9-30959a7037c5.html

Loudoun County schools boss Scott Ziegler knew of alleged sex assault despite denial: report
https://nypost.com/2021/10/22/loudoun-county-school-boss-scott-ziegler
-knew-of-alleged-sex-assault-report/

Loudoun County schools covered up rape, prosecuted a concerned father to protect transgender agenda
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/loudoun-county-schools-cove
red-up-rape-prosecuted-a-concerned-father-to-protect-its-transgender-agenda

Garland's son in law involved in an education company that sells/provides CRT related cirriculum and books or materials.
https://nypost.com/2021/10/13/critical-race-theory-firm-linked-to-ag-g
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Critical race theory (CRT) is a radical ideology now pushed in schoolsasserting that races can be put into different categories: That white people are the opressor and that jihads or black people and transexual LGBT minorities are always the opressed? Critical race theory seems to reject the core teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King, that people should be judged on the content of their character?? the far-left perverted Loudoun County corrupted prosecutor’s fake office, which would eventually try to throw the book at Smith over his arrest at the school board meeting, insisted they were taking the rape case seriously, the same boy was let back into the school system. Within months, he / she / it had committed another rape.

Loudon County Fiasco Illustrates the Folly of War on School Board Critics
https://www.newsweek.com/loudon-county-fiasco-illustrates-folly-war-sc
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'The DOJ will target you like a domestic terrorist': Tucker Carlson blasts AG Merrick Garland over plans for FBI crackdown on parents
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10064873/Tucker-Carlson-blast
s-AG-Merrick-Garland-crackdown-parents-stand-against-CRT.html

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Friday, June 10, 2022 10:15 AM

Poll: U.S. veterans oppose student loan debt forgiveness

https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/poll-us-veterans-o
ppose-student-loan-debt-forgiveness

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Thursday, February 9, 2023 8:32 PM

23 Baltimore schools have zero students proficient in math

https://www.foxbaltimore.com/amp/news/project-baltimore/state-test-res
ults-23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-jovani-patterson-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-maryland-governor-wes-moore

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Saturday, February 11, 2023 10:00 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Quote:
Originally posted by JAYNEZTOWN:
23 Baltimore schools have zero students proficient in math

https://www.foxbaltimore.com/amp/news/project-baltimore/state-test-res
ults-23-baltimore-schools-have-zero-students-proficient-in-math-jovani-patterson-maryland-comprehensive-assessment-program-maryland-governor-wes-moore

Perfect! They'll fit right in with the rest of the Democrat voters.

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Growing up in a Republic was nice... Shame we couldn't keep it.

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Wednesday, July 26, 2023 7:26 PM

Concussion May Not Affect IQ in Children
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/994791

public school?
https://twitter.com/2020mediagb/status/1683791990612262912

and Europe becoming Eurabia?

Berlin pool forced to close over sexual assaults by Muslim migrants, Lifeguard Association resident warns “violence against pool staff is everywhere”
https://barenakedislam.com/2023/07/25/germany-after-berlin-pool-forced
-to-close-over-sexual-assaults-by-muslim-migrants-lifeguard-association-resident-warns-violence-against-pool-staff-is-everywhere/

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