FINALLY! Biden goes after Israel!!! by Niki2

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

No. Auraptor wtf? A whole other people??

Geopolitics for me works in terms of windows of opportunity - most of the time peace is unattainable, Israel just has to choose the right way to protect its citizens against terrorism.

Quote:
Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?

Maybe, I've heard some such reports. And perhaps in the future? It's in Israel's interests, I don't think it can be impossible - though it may take an historic, visionary leader of some kind (weak leaders cannot make peace, etc.).

Heads should roll

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:59 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

No. Auraptor wtf? A whole other people??

No, not really. But it's an absurd premise on the face of it, so I simply followed suit.

Israel is in no means trying to wipe out anyone. I'm pretty sure there's nothing formal written about wiping anyone off the face of the map......

But the bigger problem here is, folks have already taken sides, and even though it's been proven that both sides "work" the media, folks generally assume that only 1 side gets heard, or one side is doing the bulk of the media manipulation.

It's been proven that, if anything, there are those in the media who have manipulated info AGAINST Israel, by fabricating stories.... doctoring photos.... so when I hear about how the IDF won't " allow " media in certain areas.....it's hard for me to blame them.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 5:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

No. Auraptor wtf? A whole other people??

Geopolitics for me works in terms of windows of opportunity - most of the time peace is unattainable, Israel just has to choose the right way to protect its citizens against terrorism.

Quote:
Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?

Maybe, I've heard some such reports. And perhaps in the future? It's in Israel's interests, I don't think it can be impossible - though it may take an historic, visionary leader of some kind (weak leaders cannot make peace, etc.).

Heads should roll

I don't think its impossible either

but I don't think the two state solution in its current form is going to go anywhere

BTW I'm done arguing with Rappy

I keep remembering his defense of the idea of shooting pregnant Palestinian to save bullets

lost cause

I do think Israel better act soon, or it will have the issue decided for them...

Europe for the most part has has enough of their actions

the US has other problems, and is likely very sick of having them thumb their nose at them anytime they ask them to do something towards the peace process...

They may have a great military... but their economy can't float it alone. No aid, cut off from export markets... 5 or 6 years at most...

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Friday, March 12, 2010 4:23 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
BTW I'm done arguing with Rappy

I keep remembering his defense of the idea of shooting pregnant Palestinian to save bullets

Talk about misremembering.....

You're referencing the " 1 shot, 2 kills " t-shirt, which shows a image of a pregnant muslim woman in a burka, in the cross-hairs of a sniper's scope.

You assign a position to me for which I NEVER took. How the hell am I suppose to answer to a point of view which isn't mine ?

All I said was - IF the pregnant woman has already condemned herself and unborn her child to death by being a suicide bomb, THEN it would be a justified shooting, TO SAVE THE LIVES OF OTHERS. That's the sole scenario which I deemed it even REMOTELY acceptable to pull the trigger. It never had anything to do w/ 'saving bullets'.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/280467/pregnant_palestinian_w
oman_and_niece.html

I'm not back tracking, or " making shit up " to cover up anything. The above link shows to what I was referring.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 6:01 AM

Oh bullshit, some of us were there, we know what you said, and if it weren't so fucking pointless might dredge up the thread and link it.

*points to Rappy*

THIS is the mindset of the folk in charge of Israel, and has been for a damned long time.

Still think negotiation is really possible ?

-F

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Friday, March 12, 2010 6:07 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

*points to Rappy*

THIS is the mindset of the folk in charge of Israel, and has been for a damned long time.

Still think negotiation is really possible ?

-F

Because defending oneself from suicide bombers is SO outrageous ?

I doubt there's a human one the planet who'd not take that shot to defend their own family. Every single person would do the exact same thing.

Every one.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 6:17 AM

Ok, fine, you wanna play it that way.

Here's the link.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=37443

You said what you said, and got verbally bitchslapped in epic fashion as a result.

Did you *REALLY* think you could count on the hope that people wouldn't remember and you could lie your way out of that ?

You're a monster, and such a good advertisement AGAINST the causes you support that no one needs a strawman with you around, and you're too fucking dumb to see it.

-Frem

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Friday, March 12, 2010 6:27 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Ok, fine, you wanna play it that way.

Here's the link.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=37443

You said what you said, and got verbally bitchslapped in epic fashion as a result.

Did you *REALLY* think you could count on the hope that people wouldn't remember and you could lie your way out of that ?

You're a monster, and such a good advertisement AGAINST the causes you support that no one needs a strawman with you around, and you're too fucking dumb to see it.

-Frem

Actually, you're the liar. And I'm so fracking tired of this dance. When the hell are you going to grow up ? Oh, I guess - never.

Here's what I ACTUALLY SAID

Quote:

When Pal women start dressing up their babies in suicide pampers, might be a good idea to go ahead and take care of both of them at once, before they have a chance to kill.

The CLEAR implication being, if anyone is suiting their own child up to be a martyr and kill scores of innocent others, then it's sane and logical to prevent that from happening. The MONSTER would simply allow it to occur, as you would, and then have the blood of 20,30, 100 or more people on your hands.

To save the life of a mother who is going to blow her and her own child up ANYWAY! That's the part you don't get. Your brain can't or won't process that simple, harsh reality of that. Maybe you don't want to think that anyone COULD do that, but it's EXACTLY the mindset of those butchers over there.

They say it themselves..... " We love death more than you love life " .

What is it about that which you don't get ?

Hate to play psychologist here, but you keep projecting YOUR views onto others, and then when you can't come to grips as to why anyone would murder their own child via a suicide bomb, you refuse to face the reality of their evil, and instead conclude.... " they're simply being driven to do this ! They have no other choice! "

Bullshit. YOU are the monster here, not I.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 7:39 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Okay, it's gonna be long, but as usual I'm late coming in and so much has been posted since I left, this is the only way to catch up for me.

Here’s a shock for you. All else aside, I am forced to say "Excellent self-control Raptor, I'm impressed". You made your points (much as I may disagree with them) and didn't resort to name calling until Frem did. Frem; way over the top and unnecessary in my opion. This time you can't say his posts are whatever nasty thing you want to call them: YOU started it. Or did you, with your pyschological manipulation strategy, deliberately go over the line, knowing how easy it is to trigger Raptor? I wonder.

Or, as he said himself, did you let your own anger and feelings, and past experiences with him, take you over the top? Whichever it was, you take the blame for this one.

Whatever caused your reaction; Raptor, I take you off "wind" status for me, however little that may mean to you. You'll still be wind to me when you deserve it, but if you make cogent (from your point of view) posts like these, you deserve my respect...only then.

As to "lying", I read the same quote--while it can be interpreted one way, it can also be interpreted Raptor's way, and he went on to justify it with the concept that if the mother is going to send her kid out as a suicide bomber, maybe it's worth considering. So I don't call what he said a lie, more an interpretation.

Mind you, I DO NOT agree with him, on almost all points, I'm just putting this up so that however this devolves into nastiness, you can't blame Raptor for throwing the first stone--yours wasn't a "stone", it was a bombast.

On other points: Raptor, you said in that thread from the past that we'd never seen child abuse like that in any other country. Totally wrong, and I think you know that. Hell, we can put America up as an argument against THAT if we want to. We've rarely seen children USED in such a way in a war, but then we don't hear about everything, so I doubt they're the only ones.

I agree they don’t want to wipe anyone off the map—tho’ if you’re fair, the extremist Muslims all over the Middle East DO want to wipe Israel off the map. What’s been said before is accurate; they want to grab as much viable land, by any means available, to give themselves the best of it and to put as much distance between them and their enemies as possible, in my view. That they go off the arable land is smart, and I can’t really fault them for that, but I find their actions reprehensible nonetheless.

As to the media, yes, in every conflict both sides try to manipulate. I can’t help wondering how the resources Israel has available to them makes gives them the money to do a better JOB of it and if their enemies had the same resources, they wouldn’t do it as well. At present, the Israelis have committed so many atrocities, and “if it bleeds, it’s news”, so perhaps they get more attention. I don’t know.

And the statement that Israel is the lynchpin of US policy in the region is right on...it is awfully sad to see the Obama administration reverse its policies and cow tow to Israel—I had hope there, as well as so many other places I’ve been disappointed. I wish they/he had the courage of their/his convictions on SOMETHING, dammit!!

I hold with Mincing that making a historical case against Jews such as Frem has is unsustainable. And I think it’s apt to compare America; our actions globally and historically have been just as egregious as any other religion or nationality’s—we have a shorter history, certainly, than other countries, but people around the world already say “Americans have always...” and condemn our actions in many other theaters.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 12, 2010 7:42 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

KPO:

Quote:
Israel just has to choose the right way to protect its citizens against terrorism.{/quote]I concur. Unfortunately, I doubt it will happen; between backing of the US and the ability (because of the US) for them to continue behaving as they are, I don’t ee it happening any time soon.[qote] Israel is DEFENDING herself. Not " oppressing " anyone.

Hoo, boy, do I disagree with THAT one! Israel’s actions stopped being defense a long time ago, and yes, they are seriously oppressing the Palestinians, in ways that are reprehensible to the rest of the world, but to which the US has long turned a blind eye. Admittedly, in my view Israel did start out defending themselves, and I give them full credit for how well they did it, but that doesn’t hold water anymore and hasn’t for a long time.

I got a shock a while back. Call me uninformed, but when several people on the website I run who are from England and Europe told me that one of the main reasons Americans in general are so hated by the rest of the world is our unqualified backing of Israel. I had no idea it was such an issue. I am better informed now, of course, and understand it completely. However it began, the Israeli state has become a “conquering” state, taking land from others and destroying everyone in its path, behaving in horrific fashion, ignoring the rest of the world’s efforts to stop it—and all because they have the backing of the biggest bully around: us.

However anyone started OUT in Gaza, Raptor, they deserve our empathy NOW. Whatever they did initially doesn’t change the fact that they’re being persecuted, pure and simple, and have had a “war” declared on them which SHOULD outrage any thinking American beyond belief. The horrors they live under deserve empathy, whether they’re right or wrong.

Gino:

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even Israeli folk are protesting these things

That’s the best thing I heard about Biden’s speech (aside from the condemnation, but he kinda tempered that, which is a shame): the applause by the young students. That’s a hopeful sign to me; maybe those INTERNALLY can do something to temper their country’s action in the long term; certainly not in the short term, but it gives me hope.

Quote:
Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.

That would have to be proven; I can’t accept it until it is.

Also, you made some great points. I, too, feel the same about countries who commit genocide, and Israel is only one of a long list of them. And I think Mincing’s point about making the case that “Jews have always behaved this way” is unsustainable...actually, so HAVE Africans, if you consider the atrocities committed there by various countries. Maybe the difference in part is that they’ve all had their own “homeland” from which to strike out or wipe out other populations within their borders. Maybe it’s because the backing of Israel, having so involved the US, makes it more “visible” to the rest of the world. Maybe because of the increased Muslim extremists’ actions globally nowadays, I dunno, but Israel gets focus; other places don’t. Simple as that.

You’re right; we can never know what would have happened when the Brits left (and they would have, their Empire was no longer sustainable) if it weren’t for WWII. It’s impossible to know, but I do believe without US interference (and perhaps as well the fact that so many Jews had to go somewhere and countries were tired of the influx, just as they are now of refugees from other places?), Israel would not exist. I don’t think it was any form of payback, however; more an expedient solution to the massive refugees, a political move responding to pressure, and land they were otherwise going to have to give up anyway. I could be wrong, certainly, but that’s how it looks to me.

Frem, I see your point now. You’re probably right that if we cut them off financially, politically and militarily, they’d be wiped out or start nuclear action, so lobbing a few to deter or make impossible increasing their settlements could be seen as a viable option. I don’t like to think so, however, and can we be sure that if we did so, they wouldn’t start WWIII?

Either way, I disagree heartily with your historical point of view on Jews, and I think using it to make a point about Jews somehow deserving of condemnation because of historical actions is untenable. As I said above, American's are just as much to blame in our way--to me the difference is we've had a rich, militarily and politically country from which to operate and which backs up our actions. I reject your theory that "Jews have always behaved that way" unless you ackowledge that so have Africans, Americans...and hey, how about the Germans, from the Huns on down? It's just wrong.

I've always recognized that you get heated on some subjects, but lately the way you post has become offensive to me in some ways; you still make some good arguments, but I see vitriol I didn't used to see except with regard to the treatment of children in these last two issues, and it's disappointing. JMHO.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 12, 2010 7:57 AM

KANEMAN

I don't think it's any of our buisness. I believe we need to stop meddling in the affairs of other nations. Let them fight it out on thier own. We subsidize both sides in this disagreement and we get nothing but headaches for it. Lately it does'nt seem to matter which party we elect when it comes to our foreign policy of intervention. I wish we would heed our founding fathers advice of non-intervention. I think people's opinion of us around the world would change quickly. It's not just the 700 physical bases we have in 140 countries around the world that is ill thought. It's the economic and diplomatic meddling and malipulation as well. Some times minding ones buisness is the right choice......

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Friday, March 12, 2010 8:07 AM

America loves a winner!

Niki.

I'm asking for your help on something. Educate me, because CLEARLY I'm missing a vital piece of information.

I'm not Jewish, ( that I'm aware of , anyway ) , was raised Methodist, though now am a non-believer. I have no ties, genetically,emotionally, economically, religiously - AT ALL. I've known, grown up and worked with a fair number of Jewish people. Some I liked, some not so much, but I don't recall ever having any real substantive issues w/ either their faith or anything. That's not saying I greatly admire the Jewish people as a whole... any more or less than I would anyone else.

I do recognize a lot of the animosity directed toward them is rooted in abject nonsense. THEY KILLED CHRIST ! Bullshit! That's laughably absurd, for reasons I'll skip , for right now. But my point is.... sure, they're a bit different, and odd, but over all, I've not seen them act out or be anywhere near as oppressive as anyone you'd expect, from those who had to face what they've been subjected to.

In short, I guess I'm saying I never got the memo which clearly states that Jews must be hated.

So, when I see Iranian leaders talking about 'wiping Israel off the map ', 1000's of rockets shot into civilian population areas ( and not military targets ) , suicide bombers taking out pizza restaurants and school buses.....I'm more than a bit perplexed as to what the hell it is they've done to deserve all this.

I'm not saying they're blameless on all counts, no one is. But I'd say the blame is weighted greatly toward those who want Israel destroyed, first, and not the Jews themselves. Blame can be attributed to one party more than another. In life, it's almost never 50/50. That's an idealistic and childish way of viewing the world, and one to which I do no hold.

I've visited and revisited this entire issue, on my own, over the years, and for the life of me, can NOT figure it out. Tell me, why is it that you lend more credence to the Palestinian side than the Jewish ?

In all honesty, I'd like to know.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 8:24 AM

If I might jump in for a moment, Mr. AURaptor, I am jewish, and would never be mistaken for Woody Allen. In fact, unless I flash my decidely non-kosher star of David tattoo, you would assume that I am just another dashing, hunky white guy. Anyway, this makes me an authority. On everything.

I don't think Niki is coming fromt he vantage point that jews are extra hateable, or that palestinians are all doe-eyed innocents (though there are no doubt some in this thread who are). Rather, there's a certain asymmetry in their relationship that makes the palestinians underdogs--no matter what kind of vile bullshit they pull. Plus, the vile bullshit that the israelis pull is really, really vile.

Ultimately, you are asking for a rational explanation for irrational behavior. Good luck with that. The best catologue of the irrationality out there is poliakov's a history of anti-semitism, if you're curious. but suffice to say, in the words of lehrer (who sucks), "everybody hates the jews."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 8:25 AM

KANEMAN

Aur wrote...."So, when I see Iranian leaders talking about 'wiping Israel off the map ', 1000's of rockets shot into civilian population areas ( and not military targets ) , suicide bombers taking out pizza restaurants and school buses.....I'm more than a bit perplexed as to what the hell it is they've done to deserve all this."

I've already weighed in on what I think our role should be. Now for Isreal. I believe Isreal(or any soverign nation) has every right to defend themselves and do what it thinks is in its best interest. You would hope that both nations would make the choices that lead to peace for their people. However, as long as it does not effect the US directly we should not care. What I'm getting at is they both have every right to behave like assholes. The people of both nations(for the most part) appear to be behind thier respective government's behavior and policies. So, let them have at it. When the citizens of those nations decide that enough is enough they will change their goverments actions and policies.....when school kids have at it for a while. After beating the shit out of each other and realizing no teacher is going to break it up they find out how to get along....

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Friday, March 12, 2010 8:35 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

If I might jump in for a moment, Mr. AURaptor, I am jewish, and would never be mistaken for Woody Allen. In fact, unless I flash my decidely non-kosher star of David tattoo, you would assume that I am just another dashing, hunky white guy. Anyway, this makes me an authority. On everything.

I don't think Niki is coming fromt he vantage point that jews are extra hateable, or that palestinians are all doe-eyed innocents (though there are no doubt some in this thread who are).

I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today.

I'm probably not alone in that, either. If the topic is specific to how PEOPLE have treated each other in that part of the world in recent decades, I'll cede, that it's likely to be all the more confusing ( and irrational ).

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 8:43 AM

KANEMAN

Aur "I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today."

Banking.....it sounds crazy, but it all goes back to banking and religion two made up faiths....it's really amazing the absurdity of it all........

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Friday, March 12, 2010 9:01 AM

"I guess part of my problem is trying to tie in the question as to why everyone hates the Jews, through out history, to the more recent events of Israel today."

very good point, and one that i've tried to raise. i think that this is why i think its a good point.

banking? christian triumphalism? muslim triumphalism? xenophobia? no, i think it really comes down to envy. jews are just the most awesome of all gods creatures, and this drives the goy insane.

but in all seriousness, the current discussion of israel lapses so easily into condemning the jews, as a people, and vindicating their tortured history.

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Friday, March 12, 2010 9:23 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'll try to answer you Raptor--I haven't read past your post so maybe others have gotten there first.

I have nothing against Jews themselves; my feelings are about the Israeli government and its actions (something becoming more and more shared by the Israeli people). I separate religion from politics, "Jews" are people, the "Israeli government" doesn't speak for them any more than my government speaks for me. There are just as many people who want to wipe MUSLIMS off the earth in my country as there are wanting to wipe Jews off the earth in the Middle East.

I could never use the old saying that "Some of my best friends are Jews", because I never KNEW--I don't ask and people are people. Some have told me they are after the fact, but I refuse to use that saying, given its meaning.

I was in FAVOR of the creation of a Jewish state. Not because I believed it was "payback" or anything, but because it solves some very real problems, and because they HAD been trying to create a homeland on their own before WWII.

I was, in my own vague way, on their side until the past few years. The things they have done and are doing now are just as oppressive as what was done to them...in many cases worse.

To support them ALONE at this point would be as bad, to me, as supporting the things that were done during the Bush administration; there is a difference between fighting a war and making survival all but impossible for a neighboring country, which is what they're essentially doing to the Palestinians.

Yes, they have a right to survive; but not at the expense of the Palestinian people's suffering. I have ceased supporting them because of this, and I resent the unqualified support of my country, financially and politically...especially given that the support is largely self-motivated for our government's own agenda.

To me, this issue has nothing to do with Judiasm, it has to do with the actions of a COUNTRY, any country, which has a lot of money and uses it to do horrific things to any other people. Period.

I can't speak for anyone else. I've heard the usual bullshit, "Global Jewish Conspiracy", "Jews are moneylenders", and may more. That's ALL bullshit to me.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 12, 2010 9:45 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Ooops, I see Mincing answered for me, and yes, he's (she's?) accurately answered the question.

I don't know the why of the question: both Mincing and Kane actually answered it in short terms: Banking, and looking for a rational explanation for irrational ATTITUDES, I would say, not necessarily behavior (tho' attitude becomes behavior).

You really want to understand? Read Michner's "The Source"--a fantastic book which shows just how irrational people become over the issue of one religion versus another, and how the situation came to be historically. It's fiction, but as usual with Michner a fascinating read based on FACTS.

One review by just someone who read it, not a "reviewer":

Quote:
Are you constantly perplexed by those "Mideast Peace Talks" that have (seemingly) been going on for 14 centuries? And still there is no peace in sight...and there never will be, of course....Well, Mr. Michener gives us a grand overview of the area. You'll find some surprises. Most notably that the Jews and Arabs used to get along pretty well. Not bosom buddies, of course, but better than they do now. But, I digress. What we have here is history and novel twined together in a fascinating way. Through the device of an archaeological dig, Michener provides personal stories of the folks who have populated the troubled region since prehistoric times. We have love, we have brutality, we have slavery, we have butchery, we have treachery, we have sieges outside the stone walls, we have a secret tunnel through the rock....and love again. It's life itself: messy but wonderful. And you get a nice history lesson along the way. Great book. You'll like it.

If you really want to search out some truths, you'll find them there.

Wikipedia tries:

Quote:
Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice against or hostility towards Jews, often rooted in hatred of their ethnic background, culture, or religion. In its extreme form, it "attributes to the Jews an exceptional position among all other civilisations, defames them as an inferior group and denies their being part of the nation[s]" in which they reside.

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"), and that has been its normal use since then.

If you want it broken down:

Quote:
Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:

Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."
Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."
Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."
Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)
Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."

As we examine the explanations, we must ask -- Are they the causes for anti-Semitism or excuses for Anti-Semitism? The difference? If one takes away the cause, then anti-Semitism should no longer exist. If one can show a contradiction to the explanation, it demonstrates that the "cause" is not a reason, it is just an excuse. Let's look at some contradictions:

Economic -- The Jews of 17th- 20th century Poland and Russia were dirt poor, had no influence and yet they were hated.

Chosen People -- a) In the late 19th century, the Jews of Germany denied "Choseness." And then they worked on assimilation. Yet, the holocaust started there. b) Christians and Moslems profess to being the "Chosen people," yet, the world and the anti-Semites tolerate them.

Scapegoat -- Any group must already be hated to be an effective scapegoat. The Scapegoat Theory does not then cause anti-Semitism. Rather, anti-Semitism is what makes the Jews a convenient scapegoat target. Hitler's ranting and ravings would not be taken seriously if he said, "It's the bicycle riders and the midgets who are destroying our society."

Deicide -- a) the Christian Bible says the Romans killed Jesus, though Jews are mentioned as accomplices (claims that Jews killed Jesus came several hundred years later). How come the accomplices are persecuted and there isn't an anti-Roman movement through history? b) Jesus himself said, "Forgive them [i.e., the Jews], for they know not what they do." The Second Vatican Council in 1963 officially exonerated the Jews as the killers of Jesus. Neither statement of Christian belief lessened anti-Semitism.

Outsiders -- With the Enlightenment in the late 18th century, many Jews rushed to assimilate. Anti-Semitism should have stopped. Instead, for example, with the Nazis came the cry, in essence: "We hate you, not because you're different, but because you're trying to become like us! We cannot allow you to infect the Aryan race with your inferior genes."

Racial Theory -- The overriding problem with this theory is that it is self-contradictory: Jews are not a race. Anyone can become a Jew - and members of every race, creed and color in the world have done so at one time or another.

Every other hated group is hated for a relatively defined reason. Jews, however, are hated in paradoxes: Jews are hated for being a lazy and inferior race - but also for dominating the economy and taking over the world. They are hated for stubbornly maintaining their separateness - and, when they do assimilate - for posing a threat to racial purity through intermarriages. They are seen as pacifists and as warmongers; as capitalist exploiters and as revolutionary communists; possessed of a Chosen-People mentality, as well as of an inferiority complex.

Run a google for "Why do people hate Jews?" and I'll betcha you come up with some good answers...you may have to look, but I'll bet if you keep looking you'll find something written from the perspective Frem has expressed--e.g., a historical perspective. If you really want to know. That's a long answer to a short question, but it's a complex question.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 12, 2010 10:09 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Hey, hey, hey, just found this:

Quote:
Israel is moving to amend the country's planning procedures on sensitive political decisions following an embarrassing diplomatic flap during a visit this week by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, a Cabinet minister said Friday.

The change endorsed by a parliamentary legislation committee Thursday will require a representative of the prime minister to be present when development plans are approved. The change aims to ensure the country's leader is not caught off guard by politically charged decisions, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he was by the approval of 1,600 new homes for Jews in east Jerusalem during Biden's visit.

Both Biden and the Palestinians sharply condemned the Israeli settlement decision.

Netanyahu apologized for the timing, though not the substance, of the announcement.

Biden's trip this week, aimed at renewing Mideast peace efforts as well as repairing Israel-U.S. ties strained precisely by disagreements over Israeli settlement construction, was overshadowed by the Israeli move.

Netanyahu said he was not aware of the decision — announced by Israel's Interior Ministry — before it was made public, and released a statement saying he had reprimanded the Cabinet minister responsible. There has been no indication he took further action against those involved

The proposed amendment to planning procedures was initiated by the country's welfare minister, Isaac Herzog of the centrist Labor Party. "This initiative is necessary to prevent similar mishaps in the future," Herzog said in a statement released by his office Friday.

The amendment must still be approved by parliament.

Israel's announcement of more east Jerusalem construction angered Palestinians, who had agreed only days earlier to begin indirect peace talks with Netanyahu's government, dropping an earlier demand for a full settlement freeze before talks begin. Netanyahu has agreed only to a limited slowdown that does not include east Jerusalem, which Israel sees as part of its capital.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=10081366

Okay, it may be bullshit, nothing may change. But MAYBE, just maybe, Biden made a dent--they want our backing, they know Obama's not the unquestioning Israel backer Dumbya was...maybe? Just maybe?

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Friday, March 12, 2010 12:55 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
There are just as many people who want to wipe MUSLIMS off the earth in my country as there are wanting to wipe Jews off the earth in the Middle East.

There are 300 million Americans. There are over 1.5 billion Muslims in the world....

Americans who want to WIPE Muslims off the face of the Earth? Probably no more than 0.05% of all Americans.( Unless you count the extreme enviro-whack jobs, who want to reduce human population to 500 million, or some such... .)

"Some of my best friends are..... " Yeah, I refuse to use that phrase either, for the simple reason, I don't believe in having a quota for folks I associate. It simply does not apply.

Quote:
I was, in my own vague way, on their side until the past few years. The things they have done and are doing now are just as oppressive as what was done to them...in many cases worse.

I have to assume you mean in RECENT history. Since the founding of Israel. So pease, ENLIGHTEN ME!!

You say that Israel , the Jews, the PEOPLE, how ever you want to phrase it, deserve their own state, and are due the right to live. Fine! We agree! But one must be pragmatic here, and understand, you can't have ANY of those things and not tick off a few folks , especially if those folks happen to have a religious agenda bent against - EVERYONE ELSE.

I guess my biggest gripe would be... much of what the IDF and the Jewish Gov't is ACCUSED of doing is either straight up fabricated or taken greatly out of context, by omitting what was done TO them in the first place, by the other side.

It's like , well, it's like something else I can think of. The terrorists ( not all Muslims, not all Palestinians ) can do anything and everything under the sun, and no one bats an eye. And sure, folks will agree that Israel has a right to defend itself, but when it actually DOES something, the propaganda machines are up and running, at full speed.

No one wants to hold the PLO/ Hamas accountable, but all HELL breaks loose if Israel dares to color outside of the lines or screws up ONCE.

For the life of me, I cannot understand it.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, March 12, 2010 3:05 PM

I think you're mistaking me, Niki.

I am pointing out that they are as guilty as misbehavior previous to WWII as anyone else, and ignoring that fact improperly frames things in a skewed fashion to begin with - doesn't justify nothin, and as for "deserving of condemnation", well shit, if you wanna get on that subject I also pointed out elsewhere that bloody massacre is kinda the usual dispute resolution policy in the middle east and has been for like a thousand years.

Ain't sayin it's RIGHT, just pointing out how it looks to the people involved from an internal point of view, and while every culture has a history of breaking treaties and agreements, it wouldn't be so MUCH an issue if the current government of Israel wasn't so bloody keen on breaking them over and over before the ink is even dry - so yes, other governments, cultures and theologies *are* going to point the finger and say "See? They can not be trusted!" which makes any resolution of the problem that much harder when they actually got a point to it - not that they're not hypocritical in saying so cause not a one of em is innocent, just sayin that folks ARE going to raise the issue of previous misconduct in light of current misconduct.

There's the way things should be, and the way things ARE.
I can't help it if most of the folk involved are crazy, all I can offer is some understanding of that kind of crazy, so maybe we can find some kind of way to subvert it or stem the tide before it all goes to hell.

What I am bitter and angry about isn't Israels existance, or even their conduct so much, although given the sabotage/espionage against us, their so-called ally, I think there's cause...

What I am bitter and angry about is being their bitch.

I really, REALLY hate that, and when seeing civvies massacred with weapons we gave them for pennies on the dollar, or even free, or that they bought with money we gave them - like that white phosphorous, and a lot of burnt up kids...

I get seriously, passionately ANGRY about it, it's like being forced to pay for a serial killers ammunition, to me, folks do what they do, but forcing me to pay such a huge chunk of taxes (as an independant contractor, I get really reamed on em, too!) and then financing this, this, this...

Insentient inhumanity, is all I can call it, how can I not be virulently angry about it ?

As for Rappy, again, historical behavior - you were not here for it, Niki, but those are far from the most racist, hateful and intolerant things he said, and when taken in context with the rest of the crap he was sayin *at the time* very clear in intent and meaning.

Maybe he's mellowed, but I don't buy it, not when he's willing to shovel that "wiped off the map" comment after it's been shot down no less than three times as a deliberate MEMRI mistranslation aimed at demonising Iran.
Here's more info on that for you.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

The key here, is what it usually is, Israel "agrees" to not keep taking Palestinian land (and mind you, I point out once again the only way to DO this in the middle east is to kill everyone else on it) and before the ink is even dry, goes right on and keeps doing it.
http://news.antiwar.com/2010/03/08/as-peace-talks-loom-more-settlement
s-for-israel/

I don't completely agree with Raimondo, but he's damn sure got a point, and while their own national policy is theirs to set, a lot of people, myself included, are sick of being Israels bitch.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2010/03/11/biden-in-israel/

It's all nuts, but the settlement issue is the key, cause them settlers move in, harrass, terrorise and slaughter the locals, and then scream for backup when the Palestinians retaliate, and in comes the IDF to "defend Israeli citizens" by ruthlessly slaughtering anyone who so much as looks at em funny...

Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

So what are we gonna do, just let em drive the Palestinians into the sea ?

If we can justify airstrikes on supposed WMD sites, we can damn sure certainly justify them against those settlements, but again, it opens up a can of worms cause the folk in charge of that country are, imho, insane.

And while I am quite, quite sure I'll get called anti-semetic for it, accuse of engaging in hate-speech, or whatever other excuse they wanna use to vilify folk willing to actually call those maniacs out, if you did wish to boycott Israel in a minor, personal way, just refuse to buy any product with a UPC Code prefix of 729.
http://www.michiganpeaceteam.org/boycott_divest_sanction.htm

Just remember that if you are an american citizen, this is technically illegal!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_political_boycotts_of_Israel
"Under 1977 amendments to the Export Administration Act (EAA), it is illegal for US citizens to participate in boycotts imposed by foreign countries that are not sanctioned by the United States. Accordingly, the Arab League boycott of Israel is illegal for U.S. citizens."

Try telling me THAT isn't insane ?

They'll do what they'll do, but damned if I want even one thin dime of MINE payin for it.

-F

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Friday, March 12, 2010 4:07 PM

Hell Frem...

Why not call it like it is

NATO bombed the shit out of Serbia over Kosavo, if there is to be any consistency NATO should bomb the shit out of Israel until peace is achieved.

Lose the double standards the hard way

( and I would bet that coupled with an Afghan and Iraq withdrawl... troubles with the Muslim world would decrease substantially )

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Friday, March 12, 2010 4:20 PM

Cause here in america you can almost, if not actually, be arrested and charged with "anti-semetic hate speech" for even making such a suggestion without wrapping it in either obfuscation and justifications, or fawning apologism.

That's not hyperbole either, they really do have that much of a lock on our society, media* and politics.

Which is one of the things pissin me off so much.

*-Case in point, the US Mainstream Media gets ALL their translations from MEMRI, which oughta explain a lot on even the slightest investigation of that fact.

-F

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:44 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hey, hey, hey, just found this:
Quote:
Israel is moving to amend the country's planning procedures on sensitive political decisions following an embarrassing diplomatic flap during a visit this week by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, a Cabinet minister said Friday.

The guests on Diane Rehm's news roundup yesterday seemed to think that the timing of the approval of new settlements was intended by the real hardliners to embarrass Netanyahu.

http://wamu.org/programs/dr/10/03/12.php#30601

Hour 2, about 7:30 in.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:02 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

BTW I'm done arguing with Rappy

lost cause

Truest words on this thread.

All the "Please enlighten me" blah blah blah, then you tell him, & he yells bullshit.
He knows everything & can be told nothing. If it doesn't fit into his world view, it's lies.
Niki is obviously not sick enough of his crap to dismiss him, even when he pretends to be reasonable.

The laughing Chrisisall

"I only do it to to remind you that I'm right and that deep down, you know I'm right, you want me to be right, you need me to be right." - The Imperial Hero Strikes Back, 2010

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 9:24 AM

http://www.wideasleepinamerica.com/2009/04/rotten-orchard.html

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Yes, I mean relatively recent history. I’ve actually posted about specific Israeli atrocities before, so I’m not gonna repeat myself (probably would have to spend too much time hunting for those specifics anyway). But saying “much of what the IDF and the Jewish Gov't is ACCUSED of doing is either straight up fabricated or taken greatly out of context, by omitting what was done TO them in the first place, by the other side” is either disingenuous, ignorant of the facts, or brainwashing. There’s tons of stuff you can find if you like on the internet:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11683
http://www.socialistaction.org/foley136.htm
http://www.kawther.info/wpr/2009/03/08/austrians-and-palestinians-agai
nst-israeli-war-crimes-in-gaza
Austria: http://www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk/resources/commentary-and-analysis/
57-broken-the-silence
Germany: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=116469§ionid=351020604
Ireland: http://www.kawther.info/wpr/2009/01/14/irish-foreign-minister-condemns
-israeli-atrocities
America: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/apr2002/demo-a16.shtml
Israeli human rights group: http://www.midwestfreepress.com/2009/09/12/human-rights-group-exposes-
israeli-atrocities/

Even Israeli soldiers have testified to their actions:

Quote:
On March 19th, two months after the 22-day devastation of Gaza and the slaughtering of over 1,400 Palestinians, the Israeli daily newspaper Ha'aretz published harrowing testimonies by numerous Israeli soldiers who had participated in "Operation Cast Lead." The soldiers, all recent graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory program, were speaking at an open academic forum about their recent military experiences and, as Sarah Anne Minkin of Jewish Peace News reports, "confessed that they'd knowingly shot civilians to death in Gaza, that they'd intentionally vandalized Palestinian homes, and that the rules of engagement in the war - rules handed down from above - were exceptionally permissive."

Quote:
"The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction. The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure."
--Rabbi David Batzri, head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem [Israeli newspaper Haaretz, March 21, 2006]
"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine.html

Quote:
Israeli soldiers admit atrocities against Palestinians

http://www.pslweb.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=0&cmd=articles&page=News
Article&id=12683&start=1

As to “No one wants to hold the PLO/ Hamas accountable, but all HELL breaks loose if Israel dares to color outside of the lines or screws up ONCE”, that is just plain wrong. We hear all about Hamas and the PLO and anything they’ve done wrong, but what we DON’T hear about Israeli atrocities, the rest of the world does. Our media is biased and reflects our government, period.

Frem, I’m glad you clarified to agree “that bloody massacre is kinda the usual dispute resolution policy in the middle east and has been for like a thousand years”, tho’ I don’t think it’s limited to the Middle East. Bearing in mind that I am arguing against Israel’s actions as well, quite fervently, my only objection is that you were essentially saying the JEWS deserved condemnation throughout history, and there I disagree and say many religions/nations do as well.

Gino is putting it into context to a degree; there is a double standard at work and has been throughout the US’ history. There is censorship of the news in our country so that people believe that Israel is merely defending itself, while we don't hear much about their atrocities against the Palestinians.

Chris, I’m as sick of his crap as anyone, I just TRY to treat each post as it’s written, rather than have expectations, tho’ I don’t always succeed, gawd knows, and I haven’t the history of many here. However, I am now giving up on the “enlighten” thing, as I’ve done all I can to do so and, as you said, nothing changes. Enough, already. You may be right that it's just a ploy, I dunno, but I've done my bit, whether it is or not.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 9:36 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Geezer, you may well be right...and they may wonder, too:

Quote:
Israel to probe housing announcement

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has set up a team to investigate why officials announced new settlement construction in disputed territory while U.S. Vice President Joe Biden was visiting the country.

Netanyahu announced the probe Sunday after a meeting with ministers the day before.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/03/14/israel.biden/index.html?hpt=
T2
May well be a move to derail any possible "peace talks"...maybe they got too close to actually talking? (Gawd forbid, of course!)

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:32 PM

Niki

Quote:
Frem, I’m glad you clarified to agree “that bloody massacre is kinda the usual dispute resolution policy in the middle east and has been for like a thousand years”, tho’ I don’t think it’s limited to the Middle East.

True, just that the blood soaked sands the middle east are so notorious for it, and imho it's idiotic, I mean, what, really, has it ever much SOLVED ?
Especially when you look back over a thousand years and see how little has changed - I mean, I bust on americans for never seeming to learn from our mistakes, sure, but we're very much not alone in that one!

Quote:
Bearing in mind that I am arguing against Israel’s actions as well, quite fervently, my only objection is that you were essentially saying the JEWS deserved condemnation throughout history, and there I disagree and say many religions/nations do as well.

Ah, not how I meant it - was that they were every bit as guilty as anyone else, and it's offensive that we are supposed to pretend they were perfect little angels prior to WWII and the atrocities visited upon them, that's ridiculous, they are, AND were, just as boneheaded, fulla shit, and capable of being assholes as anyone else, so they are neither paragons of virtue or villainry, although their current government seems hell bent on it to a degree that strikes me as some form of insanity-as-policy, rooted in a deep cultural fear triggered by memories of those atrocities...

Which is why I am very much concerned about that chain of foolishness continuing if Palestine should follow down that dark road and start oppressing some *other* culture eighty to a hundred years from now.

Better to stop this crap now good and proper, than go for the short term in a fashion that all but guarantees it rearing it's head back up in the future.

Quote:
Gino is putting it into context to a degree; there is a double standard at work and has been throughout the US’ history. There is censorship of the news in our country so that people believe that Israel is merely defending itself, while we don't hear much about their atrocities against the Palestinians.

Yeah that drives me into spirals of rage, as I said, it's not just our support of it, but my money payin for it...

Thing is, we talk and we talk, but until I see that flow of cash and weapons stop, or even slow down in the slightest, I don't buy a word of it - all the condemnations in the world don't mean a damned thing when we're still funnelling our resources to em at firehose velocity.

Our so-called-leaders address THAT, I might do something other than sneer at them when they start whining and whinging.

-F

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:04 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Truest words on this thread.

All the "Please enlighten me" blah blah blah, then you tell him, & he yells bullshit.
He knows everything & can be told nothing. If it doesn't fit into his world view, it's lies.

And this is different from the gang of Leftists on here - how, exactly ?

Oh, I know! I don't start w/ the knee jerk reaction of calling you LIARS on everything which we disagree. So, there is that.

Quote:

Niki is obviously not sick enough of his crap to dismiss him, even when he pretends to be reasonable.

Only it's not pretending. I'm at least ATTEMPTING reason here, which is FAR more a courtesy than some( most )have extend to me. I stated, in clear, direct and non inflammatory manner how I saw the issues and simply asked where it is we diverge on the facts. For that, I'm labeled as 'unreasonable' or a 'liar' by some.

It just don't make no sense no how.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 5:17 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm at least ATTEMPTING reason here, which is FAR more a courtesy than some( most )have extend to me. I stated, in clear, direct and non inflammatory manner how I saw the issues and simply asked where it is we diverge on the facts.

Thanx for the laff.

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Sunday, March 14, 2010 7:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Truest words on this thread.

All the "Please enlighten me" blah blah blah, then you tell him, & he yells bullshit.
He knows everything & can be told nothing. If it doesn't fit into his world view, it's lies.

And this is different from the gang of Leftists on here - how, exactly ?

Oh, I know! I don't start w/ the knee jerk reaction of calling you LIARS on everything which we disagree. So, there is that.

Quote:

Niki is obviously not sick enough of his crap to dismiss him, even when he pretends to be reasonable.

Only it's not pretending. I'm at least ATTEMPTING reason here, which is FAR more a courtesy than some( most )have extend to me. I stated, in clear, direct and non inflammatory manner how I saw the issues and simply asked where it is we diverge on the facts. For that, I'm labeled as 'unreasonable' or a 'liar' by some.

It just don't make no sense no how.

Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor

Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

I think the biggest problem Rappy is we have been down that road on this very subject

You don't think the IDF or Israel can or have done wrong...

enough separate sources have been posted over the years, Media, UN, even Israeli sources

but you continue to dismiss it.

If both side are wrong, then why is one side backed unconditionally?

Looking at even the Israeli death totals, the deaths totals are so lop sided and response so out of proportion... it has to make you wonder

as for Gaza, herding them all on to one piece of land doesn't make it a country...

especially when all the source of water and any decent farmlard was cherry picked

and Israel kept control on all border access, money transfers, electrical and water

but I am so sure you will dismiss this, I just don't see the point. Your mind is so made up... why should I try to change it

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Monday, March 15, 2010 7:48 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Frem, I'm glad you wrote

Quote:
Ah, not how I meant it - was that they were every bit as guilty as anyone else, and it's offensive that we are supposed to pretend they were perfect little angels prior to WWII and the atrocities visited upon them, that's ridiculous, they are, AND were, just as boneheaded, fulla shit, and capable of being assholes as anyone else.

Hopefully that will help Mincing see that you weren't concemning Jews, just giving background...which we could give on ANY sect of religion, any nationality, down through history.

Anyone ever see "Gentleman's Agreement"? Very old movie, about a guy who pretended to be Jewish, let the rumor mill run with it, then saw what happened. It was an unpleasant reaction to watch, but the movie was classic as to how Jews were treated earlier in American history.

I still say it's looking for a reasonable answer to an unreasonable attitude, which has been true of any "other" in any society. Applies to African Americans even more, tho' since they were originally slaves, it's expected that it would be harder to change the mind set.

Humans fear the unknown, and fear is usually turned to hate--THAT's the reasonable answer to the reasonable question. They still do and probably always will, sadly. Strange little species, we are...

Raptor, yes, you seem to be asking civil questions. But given they've been answered IN DEPTH here and before, it's bound to make one wonder if you're really asking seriously or not. I've not seen you give one INCH, and your statement that "No one wants to hold the PLO/ Hamas accountable, but all HELL breaks loose if Israel dares to color outside of the lines or screws up ONCE" is so outside reality that I can't help but question your motives. We hear all the time about how horrible Hamas, etc., are, and have to dig to find out about the atrocities of Israel (in this country), that what you said doesn't make sense. So I'm quitting trying to "answer" what I don't think are actual questions, however civilly they may be posed.

I haven't called you any names...if it were possible, I'd suggest you treat people as they treat YOU, rather than lumping and calling anyone who disagrees with you (which I recognize you haven't done to me, in this thread). But I'm pretty convinced you'd neither hear me nor care.

The time involved in trying to respond to your questions just isn't worth it, when it does no good.

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Monday, March 15, 2010 7:57 AM

Frem, if anyone were to accuse you of anti-semitism, it wouldn't be for insufficient fawning, or for your politics, but rather for statements like:

"...well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."

I don't think anyone in this thread has maintained that jews, pre-holocaust, were anything other than people--certainly not innocent angels--and people are flawed. But I do believe that you have maintained, or at least intimated, that the persecution of the jews is historically justified by their actions. Just to be clear. This is where background and condemnation blurr together.

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Monday, March 15, 2010 8:25 AM

Wasn't my intention.

Seriously, folks'd be just as "justified" saying us americans are dictator-supporting pricks, which is in fact true, but of debateable utility in justifying terrorism against em since most of us are against supporting em, and the would-be victims of said terrorism are all too likely to be those people.

What I was busting chops on was the bullshit myth that the jewish people were perfect little angels without a sin in the world when Hitler started riling up people against them, and that they had never engaged in any wrongdoing of their own.

THAT is bullshit, and to start debate from that point frames it in a skewed manner by pre-loading moral questions better asked in a longer historical perspective.

To narrow a debate regarding cultures that have existed for a very long time in proximity to each other to a single decade or century, cherry picked, in this fashion, is inherently dishonest.

That's as bad as the myth that the muslims hate the jews and always have, when in truth they have a much LONGER history of supporting each other against christian persecution, but when you frame the debate so narrowly as to not acknowledge this, you're starting from a dishonest beginning.

And it's kind of a tribute to the strength of that bullshit myth about what perfect little angels they were that when some asshole like me starts poking holes in the story it triggers such a reaction...

-F

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 8:24 AM

frem, i haven't called you asshole, or anything else for that matter. unless i have, in which case, please excuse me for being an asshole. all i've tried to do is call your attention to some of the words you've used. i appreciate your response, but still maintain that there is a world of difference between asserting that no, contrary to our pious holocaust narratives, some jews sucked; and blaming the victim for their victimization. just be sensitive to how one easily blends into the other, is all i would ask of you.

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:38 AM

Point taken, but a combination of outrage at the fawning servility we're supposed to treat their current government with, rage at being forced to finance its abuses, and disgust for the whole bloody mess doesn't exactly make that an easy thing to do, yanno.

-F

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 1:15 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

I can understand people's anger at present day Israel and its actions - Frem, I can't understand your (apparent?) anger at Jews throughout history... What have they done besides being ousted from their native land and living as conspicuous minority in intolerant foreign countries - and generally being the whipping boy of history?

I kind of agree with Mincing: to me, some of those words were dripping with anti-semitism - perhaps fresh from a place you've been swimming recently, some reading material with an anti-jewish message perhaps?

Be careful with this - for people who feel the system is failing and rotten, blaming the unseen hand of 'world jewry' is the oldest, most seductive explanation in the book.

Heads should roll

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Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:46 PM

You want it in a nutshell ?

This.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

And that attitude persists in the modern day Likud party, which is still quite a force, politically.

Why is it that pointing out they were just as bad as everyone else in the region is antisemetism, why is it that pointing out they've engaged in terrorism, espionage and sabotage, antisemetism ?

And why is it that despite me saying as much time and time again, that this in no way justifies much of the bullshit pulled on them by others, folks jump right to that assumption on the slightest criticism against their actions ?

Conditioning.

Question it.

-Frem

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 4:25 AM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
This.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

And that attitude persists in the modern day Likud party, which is still quite a force, politically.

I can understand links being drawn from the Irgun to the modern state of Israel. What I can't understand is your drawing those links *backwards* to explain in part why Jews were so reviled and persecuted in Europe for centuries.

It's true the Jews are not a race of doe-eyed victims - that's clear from Israel's modern (and ancient?) military history. But you're tarring centuries of oppressed European Jews with the brush of what some of their descendants would do many years later...?

I feel a similar sense of anger towards some muslims in my country who outwardly refuse to commemorate the Holocaust. No matter how angry and disgusted you get at Israel's modern actions it should not stop you in any way feeling sorry for the sad story of the European Jews. As soon as you do you're becoming callous towards a whole race of people, and that's scary.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:01 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Major good point, KPO:

Quote:
As soon as you do you're becoming callous towards a whole race of people, and that's scary

Double scary, actually. Making any race the "other" dehumanizes them, which makes them easier to hate, which makes that hate easier to manipulate, which makes them easier to persecute, etc. etc. It's one of the main problems with humans...and few are immune to it, in some form or another.

"Blacks came from Africa; they're primitives" (they were once, compared to us), "Mexicans are lazy, they just lay arond midday" (they did in their homeland, because of the heat), "Muslims are terrorists, look at their history" (those who are terrorists are so because of indoctrination to see US as the "other" and dehumanize US); pick one, pick ANY, you can find justification for looking down on any other culture. It's just plain wrong.

Mind you, I dislike the French (despite being the daughter of a French immigrant) and I know have my own prejudices against them which are not realistic, but the Jews are entirely too convenient a target and have been for centuries. I don't think any people's past actions should be used to justify anything currently. NOR should past persecution, something we Americans are a bit too stuck in. Propagandized with "Exodus" and all the rest (and loving underdogs and being unable to see Israel in any other light) have brainwashed us; time to treat them according to how they behave NOW. JMHO

"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:21 AM

Oddly enough, KPO, if you go back somewhat further, before the Irgun and whatnot, they weren't near as bad as history makes em out to be *at that point*, since most of the history up till then was written by the christians who persecuted them, and therefore loaded with it's own justifications, many of them questionable in their veracity.

I mean, hell, look at how all three beliefs got on in concert and peace in Medina once Mohammed wrote the Medina Compact as a set of guidelines for living together without conflict, something which I think could, and should, be brought up as a current issue since it's tied deeply into the history and culture of all three beliefs and fully compatible with them - if we'd quit playin favorites and get behind a NEW Medina Compact we could probably get all but the worst fanatics on board because of that religious compatibility and just how deeply religion influences culture of the people in question.

And yes, the lot of jews did suck, often as not caught up in a lot of bullshit going on and without even the military might to be an active participant, at least during the crusades the muslim cultures could field powerful military forces - and much of the time did shelter persecuted jews as well, which I have noted.

And that in part seems to have lead to a certain cultural and social paranoia, which the Likud and other factions amplifies and plays on to keep power, and has gone to a place I think qualifies as a form of national insanity - but yanno, I don't feel sorry for their government, but their *people* ?

A little, although not much given how rare refuseniks are - there's a certain courage in NOT pulling a trigger too, as I have pointed out regarding a certain nameless tank driver in Tiananmen Square that day - and while I comprehend the level of cultural paranoia and indoctrination involved in this, comes a time when "just following orders" is no defense.

Same for the other side, cause just as you have the Likud stroking fear and paranioa to keep in power and then throwing poor shleps who mostly don't know any better into the fray to keep the bodycount going, so too do you have muslim leaders on the other side doing exactly the same goddamn thing, and those bastards NEED each other, cause each one keeps the other in power, and they damn well know it.

And the ones that suffer worst are the poor dumb bastards destined from the cradle to be cannon fodder to one or the other, and yeah, I do feel sorry for THEM, maybe not as much as I should, but I do - the leaders, not so much.

While there's been some progress on that kind of crap in Afghanistan via supporting literacy through RAWA (and subsequently showing them what the Quaran *really* says about some of those actions, cause it's got some strong words about mistreatment of prisoners, women and noncombatants) - given the IDF's habit of blowing the damned schools up I dunno how effective that'd be in Palestine.

Anyhows, some might call that limited sympathy callous, but one might also recall that is coming from someone who even as an emotionally stunted, nihilistic seventeen year old kid who had just lost the greater part of his family, and was LOOKING for a rationale to commit sanctioned slaughter - when handed the now-infamous twentynine palms survey decided "No, I will *not* kill someone over this, not for you, not for anyone." and wrecked what might have been a promising military career on the spot.

So my sympathies for those without the moral courage to refuse to pull a trigger, aren't that great - sorry, but there it is.

Charged as this issue is, I've been as rational as possible about it, and while that's maybe less than some would like, it's a damn sight better than most folk ever manage, yanno ?

So some cred for tryin here, willya ?

-F

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:14 AM

TRAVELER

Well the Palestinians are protesting and the rest of the Islamic world are watching to see what Obama does with this settlement issue. I hope he makes a stand and shows Israel that we are going to stop supporting these acts of aggression.

It is time someone took their sword and pounded it into a plowshare. There is a need to construct peace between Israel and Palestine, not contruct 16,000 more habitats for Israelis on Palestine land.

I would rather see Israel make the gesture without us pushing them, but if requires us to get tough then we should start cutting our support.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 1:06 PM

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
And that in part seems to have lead to a certain cultural and social paranoia, which the Likud and other factions amplifies and plays on to keep power

This to me is just pretty standard right wing reactionary politics, not specific to Israel - only Israel's circumstances are specific.

You wish Israelis would disassociate with their government and military more? The military has preserved the survival of the nation on more than one occasion. Just because the country is paranoid doesn't mean there aren't people out there trying to kill them...

To my mind Israel needs peace-loving conscientious people *in* its army, not as objectors - to preserve a culture of respect for civilian life within the military, and also to provide accountability if there are orders from on high that are unethical.

But I guess you probably view the actions of Israel's military in a darker light than I do. And I can understand where you're coming from with your view of Israel having a kind of 'national insanity'... don't personally buy it though. It's when criticism of Israel strays into meditations on the 'Jewish nature' that I think we have to be alarmed - like acts of violence and barbarism are specific to just one group of humanity?

That said, I do think some cultures are more militant and warlike than others (like Prussian, and pre-WW2 Japanese?), and I do believe we have to be allowed to point it out when it's the case. Religion, as we know, is one volatile cultural ingredient that can inspire war. But the historical argument for the Jewish people being violent is just not there for me, and I don't think it's a factor to be included in the story of the Holocaust.

Heads should roll

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:37 PM