REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Study: Environmental Factors May Be Just as Important as Genes in Autism

POSTED BY: THEHAPPYTRADER
UPDATED: Thursday, July 14, 2011 14:36
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Thursday, July 14, 2011 7:53 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Yeah I know, I'm kind of an easy mark for them - thing is, while permissive, my minimum behavior standard is prettymuch do-no-harm, but that's a minimum, something folks don't understand all that well.
Now, if one of them has expressed interest in taking a life-path which requires a higher standard than that, I'll start holding them to it, and explain why, but the whole concept of no-as-default, and "because I said so" is damaging to them in that it's essentially teaching them might-makes-right, therefore by rewarding negotiation instead of force, this encourages them down a gentler path.

I also take issue with that automatic-submission response to adults/authority, and trying to hammer it into them, because abusers of all kind take serious advantage of it, as do perceived authorities in a political sense when they do become adults - this is where jackboots come from, folks willing to follow any order just cause someone in perceived authority says so, and it's harmful to them and others.
So yeah, I teach them to think it through, and listen to their own heart - and me being me, more than once I've had one or more kids stand up to me and call me out for my actions, or flatly refuse something that they felt was wrong or immoral, and every time they do it bolsters my faith in humanity just a little bit more.

Of course, all of the above makes me look to be an easy mark, but if I ain't willing to play along, I don't.
Also there's this - I draw fewer lines and limits on behavior, but WHEN I draw them, they might as well be carved in stone, cause I will not budge, none of those limits are arbitrary and happen to be there for good reasons, which will be explained to them in lieu of "Cause I said so!" - thus when they run up against them, which is rare, they do trust in my refusal since by demonstrable practice it's NOT just ego or control, there really is a reason.

A childs trust is a sacred thing, you see - not just rhetoric with me but an issue that borders on religious, it is given to you only when you have earned it, and can be revoked at any time, their obedience you can compel with force, but never their trust in you - I wish more parents understood that difference.

And yes, Mikey - I am all too well aware of the horrors Big Pharma is capable of, remember, I was pointing them out back BEFORE they came into the public eye and getting regularly shouted down for it, as you well recall, cause one of my *issues* with governor goodhair was his aiding and abetting a catastrophe, which you got to watch unfold right here, did you not ?
Which had much to do with that Cassandra-commentary too, as you well know.
And you still don't know the half of it - here's a good case example of the collusion between so called journals and Big Pharma.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/may/09/bad-science-medica
l-journals-companies

Oh, and I hadn't mentioned it yet, but Big Pharma is working on a "medical marijuana" THC Pill, which of course in order to market effectively at the price they want, will require the total destruction of little-guy dispensaries, and suppression of street level competition...
And I would offer good odds their wonder pill will be less effective, as well.

There's history, with that, Big Pharma and their nicotene patches - the whole scheme was set up in such a fashion as NOT to end folks addiction so much as change their supplier, since following any of the plans they offered was all but assured not to work - and meanwhile they were howling for higher excise taxes, more smoking bans, and so on and so forth.
I could go on, but ain't no point to it - either folks look at their behavior and realize what monsters they are, or cover their eyes and ears and scream at you for crushing their illusions.

-Frem
PS. Although I support them, I don't trust CCHR either, cause they're a bit too extreme and fail to recognize the actual utility of some meds for temporary symptom abatement in order to allow therapy to actually BE effective.

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 12:27 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Yeah I know, I'm kind of an easy mark for them - thing is, while permissive, my minimum behavior standard is prettymuch do-no-harm, but that's a minimum, something folks don't understand all that well.
Now, if one of them has expressed interest in taking a life-path which requires a higher standard than that, I'll start holding them to it, and explain why, but the whole concept of no-as-default, and "because I said so" is damaging to them in that it's essentially teaching them might-makes-right, therefore by rewarding negotiation instead of force, this encourages them down a gentler path.

I also take issue with that automatic-submission response to adults/authority, and trying to hammer it into them, because abusers of all kind take serious advantage of it, as do perceived authorities in a political sense when they do become adults - this is where jackboots come from, folks willing to follow any order just cause someone in perceived authority says so, and it's harmful to them and others.
So yeah, I teach them to think it through, and listen to their own heart - and me being me, more than once I've had one or more kids stand up to me and call me out for my actions, or flatly refuse something that they felt was wrong or immoral, and every time they do it bolsters my faith in humanity just a little bit more.

Of course, all of the above makes me look to be an easy mark, but if I ain't willing to play along, I don't.
Also there's this - I draw fewer lines and limits on behavior, but WHEN I draw them, they might as well be carved in stone, cause I will not budge, none of those limits are arbitrary and happen to be there for good reasons, which will be explained to them in lieu of "Cause I said so!" - thus when they run up against them, which is rare, they do trust in my refusal since by demonstrable practice it's NOT just ego or control, there really is a reason.

A childs trust is a sacred thing, you see - not just rhetoric with me but an issue that borders on religious, it is given to you only when you have earned it, and can be revoked at any time, their obedience you can compel with force, but never their trust in you - I wish more parents understood that difference.



Me too, Frem. Beautifully put, a child's trust is sacred!!! Couldn't agree with you more on comments above it either. Which puts me well out of step with most other parents I know, not to mention the school. It seems a no brainer to me that encouragement will work better than punitive measures, but underneath a lot of thinking about children is that old adage 'spare the rod' and the idea of original sin that needs to be beaten out of kids.

Not to mention the more middle class, but equally obnoxious desire to mould one's child to gifted status. Flash cards from birth, bah humbug!!

Since you have posted one Ben Goldacre article, I thought you might like this one from his blog, about kids who can see through BS, but get dissed by adults. Go Ben
http://www.badscience.net/2011/06/kids-who-spot-bullshit-and-the-adult
s-who-get-upset-about-it
/

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 1:30 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I tend to think "because I said so" is rather ineffective because kids are much more likely to willingly obey if they know why they are supposed to do it. I would only/have only used "because I said so" in very rare situations with very little children who wouldn't understand why it isn't okay to do whatever. Even then it isn't my preferred method and I try explaining it to them first because if they understand they'll probably obey. When I was a kid I obeyed a lot better when I understood why I needed to. I do however believe in giving age apropriate explanations because a three year old doesn't need to know all the rutted up details of the world yet, just how to stay safe and what is okay.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, July 14, 2011 2:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, closest to that I come, when time or situation doesn't allow for it is - "Trust me, I'll explain later" - which they do, cause they know I'll hold to that.

As for the really teeny ones, which I don't have nearly as much experience with, they don't seem to have the attention span for an explaination, but then they don't have the attention span to want to keep doin whatever either - a hug and a distraction works just as well in those cases.

As for kids who spot bullshit, oh HELL YES.
I was one of em, and caught no end of shit for it.

Thing is, when a kid spots bullshit WE blind ourselves to in order to survive our messed up society, and calls us out on it - american psych SOP is to call that a "distorted worldview" and use therapy and medication, or worse, to force them to not look at it that way...
So INSTEAD of addressing the very real problems, they're engaged in shutting up the complainers, yet another reason my respect for conventional pysch is so limited.

Sometime in the haze of puberty, some part of me decided "Okay, fine, if you are going to ignore me, call me a liar, and punish me when I point out your hate and your lies, when I bring them to your attention... THEM IMMA KICK EM UP YOUR ASS WITH A HOBNAILED BOOT - Let's see you deny it THEN!"
Umm.. a lotta folks were not completely unjustified in despising me as a child, I was pretty mean, often downright hostile, and used my intellect and perceptions as a bludgeon against anyone participant in a system I felt was abusive and vile - I didn't have the words, but the feeling, the concept, was there all along.

And as I grew up and saw piece by piece it was even worse than my most bitter nightmares, I simply could not do anything BUT act against it if I ever wanted to live with myself - which was ridiculous, insane, an ant taking on a mountain.
I didn't actually expect to survive it, much less have a real impact, but imma industrious little bastard, and clever besides.

Supporting those kids is one of the best courses we can take in hopes of changing our future for the better, with the adage that one must be exceptionally careful as well, cause by the time they start calling us out like that, there's a deep, DEEP wellspring of hate for us and our society in there as well, which can not only explode in harm unto us - it's also harmful, poisonous, to them as well (See Also: HKCavs comments on forgiveness) something I know better than I ever wanted to.

Which is why I try to guide them down a gentler path, and offer complete honesty about my own failures and flaws - how the hell can they learn from our screwups if we try to pass ourselves off as perfect to them ?
And they respect you MORE for it, actually have compassion, realize you're HUMAN, when you own your errors - instead of the crushing blow of watching you fall off that pedestal you put yourself on, and they see you for the liar you are.
My sister was not best pleased when I laughed in her face after she tried passing herself off to her daughters as a paragon of good behavior regarding boys, while flaming them for stuff she went far, far beyond in her own day, and I damn well knew about cause who the hell do you think was acting as lookout/doorgaurd while she did ?
Sure, address their behavior - but to be such a complete liar and hypocrite about your own ?
Askin for trouble, that is.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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