REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Georgetown stands by Fluke

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Thursday, March 8, 2012 04:27
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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 6:08 AM

BYTEMITE


? I've never seen that movie.

But anyway. There's a number of reasons I've heard why a girl might decide to have children while still single... Most of them revolving around abandonment, or despair and loneliness, rather than any particular instinctive or psychological urge.

So, I just have my doubts that's a valid concept.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 6:48 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
? I've never seen that movie.

But anyway. There's a number of reasons I've heard why a girl might decide to have children while still single... Most of them revolving around abandonment, or despair and loneliness, rather than any particular instinctive or psychological urge.

So, I just have my doubts that's a valid concept.



Hello,

Only women can know what their urges and instincts are, but I've had so many of them proclaim the thing as truth to me that I feel there must be something to it.

At the very least, when a significant percentage of a population professes something, it bears thinking about.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 7:26 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

At the very least, when a significant percentage of a population professes something, it bears thinking about.


Depends. This is still potentially very much a social construct.

The human race, and women in particular, are constantly told in subtle or overt ways that their only purpose in life is the propagation of the species. Girls read stories in which princesses meet princes and get married and have babies and it's happily ever after.

I have friends who believe so strongly in these ideas that the fact that they aren't already married at 24 and don't have children makes them think there is something wrong with them.

I find all of this to actually be very UNnatural. I very seriously doubt that there is some sort of baby drive that builds to a critical point in women, after which they become desperate to conceive. Certainly, it isn't anything that's empirical or confirmed by science. Rather, I think it's all social pressure or psychological.

So I don't really like the term biological clock and all it implies. It suggests women really ARE breeding machines, and not in control of their own desires to have a family (when or if they do). In which case I'd have to bring up questions about absence of consent - sex and reproduction have to be conscious choices, because if they aren't, if it's all just hormonal desperation, I'd consider that the same thing as rape.

On the other hand, I could also argue under this same set of assumptions that all sex is hormones and social pressure, and therefore coerced, which would be rape, but I suspect none of you want me to go there, and I'm not sure it's an idea I'd seriously entertain.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 7:35 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

At the very least, when a significant percentage of a population professes something, it bears thinking about.


Depends. This is still potentially very much a social construct.

The human race, and women in particular, are constantly told in subtle or overt ways that their only purpose in life is the propagation of the species. Girls read stories in which princesses meet princes and get married and have babies and it's happily ever after.

I have friends who believe so strongly in these ideas that the fact that they aren't already married at 24 and don't have children means there is something wrong with them.

I find all of this to actually be very UNnatural. I very seriously doubt that there is some sort of "baby drive" that builds to a critical point in women, after which they become desperate to conceive. Certainly, it isn't anything that's empirical or confirmed by science. Rather, I think it's all social pressure or psychological.

So I don't really like the term biological clock and all it implies. It suggests women really ARE breeding machines, and not in control of their own desires to have a family (when or if they do). In which case I'd have to bring up questions about absence of consent.



Hello,

Absence of consent?

If a man desires to have sex because it is socially desirable, is he no longer consenting?

If a man desires to have sex because he has a biological imperative, is he no longer consenting?

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 7:38 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Absence of consent?

If a man desires to have sex because it is socially desirable, is he no longer consenting?

If a man desires to have sex because he has a biological imperative, is he no longer consenting?



I actually started to go there in my edit.

And, honestly? I'm not sure. But as I think about it more, I think it might be true. You'd have to convince me otherwise, but I suspect none of us really wants to have this conversation.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 7:43 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

If you don't want to have the conversation, I won't make you. But I am incredulous to hear how many times I may have been raped by society or biology.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 7:47 AM

BYTEMITE


All I can say is, try not to think about it too much. You'll end up as crazy as I am.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 12:34 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
How about being responsible and stop looking to the federal govt to run your life ?


How bout the federal govt stops TRYING to run my life ?

How bout THAT, ehe ?
You wanna go into that whole run-your-own-life thing, then be prepared to get PLOWED UNDER by the amount of nitpickery bullshit the fed jams into all our lives, sans consent, every single day.

The LEAST they can do is offer SOME form of compensation.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 12:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
All I can say is, try not to think about it too much. You'll end up as crazy as I am.


Not like I have to worry, being crazier to begin with.

(various comments edited out so as not to freak out the normals)

Being, yanno, an anarchist-polyamorous-hedonist and all that, wellll.....

ahem.
Annnnyhows - haven't tried Mass Effect 3 yet, don't trust EA not to screw it up.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 2:29 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
pizmo...

The view that a 2 parent family is more preferable to a single parent household gets distorted, imo. The statistics bear out, that having a committed 2 parent household is more likely to produce children who stay in school and stay out of trouble. Sure, there are exceptions , but by in large, it's best for the kids to have 2 parents. But saying one is statistically 'better' than another, isn't the same as condemning those who choose to or find themselves in a 1 parent status. Things happen, that's life. But the trend needs to be reversed, and simply stating the facts, regardless as of whose feelings get hurt, doesn't change anything.

I knew a girl whose biological clock was ticking, was unmarried, and wanted to have kids. She actually got to the stage of thinking about going it alone, and getting knocked up via in vitro. Glad she didn't. A short while later, she got married, and now has an great family.

And I also know of another girl, who DID go that route. She was financially independent, so going ' Murphy Brown ' wasn't such a bad choice for her. But most women in a similar situation aren't in a position to pull that off, and that's where things become even more stressful.



So how do you help them? If the goal is fewer unwanted pregnancies, especially for unwed women, what gets you there faster than widespread availability of contraception?

*HOPING* that people will decide to do the "smart" thing and wait until marriage to have sex is about as effective as hoping a woman doesn't get pregnant from unprotected sex.

Even Christians will agree that abstinence isn't 100% effective.





"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 2:33 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
pizmo...

The view that a 2 parent family is more preferable to a single parent household gets distorted, imo. The statistics bear out, that having a committed 2 parent household is more likely to produce children who stay in school and stay out of trouble. Sure, there are exceptions , but by in large, it's best for the kids to have 2 parents.

I knew a girl whose biological clock was ticking, was unmarried, and wanted to have kids. She actually got to the stage of thinking about going it alone, and getting knocked up via in vitro. Glad she didn't. A short while later, she got married, and now has an great family.

And I also know of another girl, who DID go that route. She was financially independent, so going ' Murphy Brown ' wasn't such a bad choice for her. But most women in a similar situation aren't in a position to pull that off, and that's where things become even more stressful.




So, yes, that's where I'm coming from - that providing women with contraception will make a bigger dent in the unwanted births and single parent families than not doing it. Agreed, in a high% it's better for the majority to have 2 parent families and not, "oops!" families. We could provide free condoms but you and I both know "not gonna happen." I don't really give a hockey puck who comes up with the best answer, just let's quit flocking around and try the best one we have now.




The "best answer" is the one that works FOR YOU. In other words, "all of 'em." Condoms, the pill, Plan B, abstinence education AND real-world sex education.

The system we have now seems to be "don't talk about it, and everything will probably work out all right." That's a bit like never teaching your kid to drive or talking about it with them, and then tossing them the keys when they turn 16 and expecting them not to wreck the family truckster.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 2:52 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Amen Byte!
Quote:

The human race, and women in particular, are constantly told in subtle or overt ways that their only purpose in life is the propagation of the species. Girls read stories in which princesses meet princes and get married and have babies and it's happily ever after.

I have friends who believe so strongly in these ideas that the fact that they aren't already married at 24 and don't have children makes them think there is something wrong with them.

I find all of this to actually be very UNnatural. I very seriously doubt that there is some sort of baby drive that builds to a critical point in women, after which they become desperate to conceive. Certainly, it isn't anything that's empirical or confirmed by science. Rather, I think it's all social pressure or psychological.

So I don't really like the term biological clock and all it implies. It suggests women really ARE breeding machines, and not in control of their own desires to have a family (when or if they do).

I'll disagree with you that it's all "rape", hormonal or social, because sex is also a way men and women get closer and share their love, whether you accept that or not. But as to social pressure and how we're indoctrinated: ABSOFRIGGINLOOTELY! Luckily both Paula and I escaped that; at 17 I decided I'd never bring a child into the world I saw around me, and both of us only married our partners for societal reasons.

There is no denying it's all around us, has been for millenia, and that it would be great if we could get rid of those pressures and CHOOSE who we want to be. JMHO



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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 3:06 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hey Raptor, in case you missed it. In response to your "proud Georgetown woman" from that Tea Party website, how about this:
Quote:

NGJ’s Heather Regen is a sophomore at Georgetown University- what follows is her personal reflection on the Rush Limbaugh/Sarah Fluke contraception controversy. Heather also solicited reactions from several of her classmates, which are published separately and linked below. Are you a Georgetown student? Add your thoughts in the comments.

After enduring a red-eye flight out of Washington, a two-hour layover in Milwaukee and the worst airport food to grace this Earth, I suddenly wanted to turn around and fly right back to Georgetown. I had just landed in Los Angeles, and upon re-entering the world of WiFi, saw an email with the subject line: “A message from President DeGioia on Civility and Public Discourse.”

After reading President DeGioia’s email to the Georgetown community, I felt a sudden surge of pride in calling myself a Hoya. The email came as a direct response to the attacks on Georgetown law student Sandra Fluke, and DeGioia made it clear that the university stands firmly behind her right to free expression — no matter her position on an issue that’s been particularly contentious around campus.

The debate over the Obama administration’s Department of Health and Human Services mandate regarding contraceptives coverage has permeated discussions all over Georgetown for weeks now. In my Religion and American Politics course I’ve heard classmates quoting everything from Tocqueville’s “Democracy in America” to Madison’s “Memorial and Remonstrance” to support either side of the issue.

But the discussion isn’t one that just took place in theology classes. In Red Square, our campus’ free speech zone, H*yas for Choice helped students sign thank-you cards to President Obama. In the Intercultural Center, the Knights of Columbus made their case in a panel called “Religious Freedom and Healthcare.” Whether on the way to class, in our fabulous cafeteria or trapped in the library, Georgetown students engaged in dialogue.

One of the most upsetting results of Rush Limbaugh’s abusive tirade was its breakdown of that very dialogue. Just this Thursday, Georgetown’s Philodemic debate society argued, “Resolved: The Obama contraceptive rule violates religious freedom.” Over the course of two hours and many passionate speeches, the society negated the resolution. With strong argumentation and subtle understandings of the issue at hand, the Philodemic gave the debate the intricacy it deserved. No one called the other a “slut” or a “prostitute;” no one suggested women on contraception post sex videos online.

Rush Limbaugh’s comments, as President DeGioia wrote, represent “behavior that can only be described as misogynistic, vitriolic, and a misrepresentation of [Fluke’s] position.”

Even more enraging is Limbaugh’s purported statement of apology. What the talk show host wrote appears more a desperate attempt to save face (and advertisers) than an effort to right his wrongs. Although Limbaugh uses the words “I sincerely apologize,” he focuses his statement on what he deems “discussing personal sexual recreational activities before members of Congress,” asking, “What happened to personal responsibility and accountability?”

The statement is not an apology at all, but a toned-down version of the last two attacks Limbaugh aimed at Fluke. There’s a world of difference between uttering the words “I’m sorry” and putting them to action. Most noticeably, the statement makes no attempt to right the wrong; it offers no solution to the degradation of dialogue on an issue that deserves the fullest delicacy and the most respectful debate.

Emma Green, a senior at Georgetown, noted in an email, “In a public debate like this, it’s easy for two sides of an issue to become a caricature of the original question.”

She sees the true question as one of “how to balance women’s health needs and reproductive rights with legitimate objections of conscience offered by those who employ them in religious communities. And that notion of balance — of finding the policy solution that maximizes the rights and health of everyone involved – can only be achieved through respectful discourse of the kind that President DeGioia so eloquently defended.”

DeGioia’s letter represented Georgetown through-and-through. In characteristic Hoya fashion, he even quotes Saint Augustine to demonstrate the power of civil discourse: ”Let us, on both sides, lay aside all arrogance. Let us not, on either side, claim that we have already discovered the truth. Let us seek it together as something which is known to neither of us. For then only may we seek it, lovingly and tranquilly, if there be no bold presumption that it is already discovered and possessed.”

In an act not seen often enough in public discourse, DeGioia reminded us that our debates about issues like contraceptives are aimed at legitimate public policy decisions and should be handled as such. In a 24-hour news cycle fueled by advertisements and personalities, we reduce complex issues down to sound bytes.

As Georgetown junior Josh Donovan noted, “One only needs to turn on the news to see how toxic our political atmosphere is. Partisanship runs so deep that offensive comments made by people like Rush Limbaugh are more commonplace than we may care to admit.”

If Georgetown students — some of us still teenagers, some of us stepping into our early 20s — can produce engaging, respectful and eloquent debate, the least we can ask is that radio hosts and pundits don’t destroy that. In fact, we should be able to ask them to step it up.

As President DeGioia remarked, “If we allow coarseness, anger – even hatred – to stand for civil discourse in America, we violate the sacred trust that has been handed down through the generations beginning with our Founders. … This is our moment to stand for the values of civility in our engagement with one another.” http://nextgenjournal.com/2012/03/contraception-and-georgetown-univers
ity-students-reflect/
]



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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 3:11 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


When I think of the term biological clock, I think of the math. If a woman wants kids she should start before she's 40. If she wants to have more after she's 40 then she can do that, but having your first one after 40 isn't advisable, even though celebrities do it a lot, why would they want to? they'll be old when their kids graduate high school.

So I just think of it as a woman knowing her time to conceive a first child is limited and she really wants to do it before her time runs out. Its one of those things where its like "Well I didn't want to until I was faced with not being able to, then I decided that its now or never, so lets go with now, right now."

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 5:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Taking fertility treatments can increase the age of a successful pregnancy to 80 years old, and can ignore menopause. Or there's always egg harvesting and surrogacy.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 8:02 PM

OONJERAH



Start a family after 50?

    Byte, ya gotta be kidding!




             

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 9:06 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
DeGioia wrote that Limbaugh’s behavior was “misogynistic, vitriolic, and a misrepresentation of the position of our student.”


That is true. Limbaugh called her a slut, which is not true...all she's asking is that other people be forced to pay for her lifestyle choices.

For example, I bought Mass Effect 3 today...you should all be forced to pay me back and pay for me to take time off work to play it. I should also get a new TV so as to avoid unnecessary eye strain and a home aid worker to cook and clean for me. And someone to walk my dog. Some of you may be opposed to video game violence, but you should still have to pay.

I thank you all in advance.

H



So I hope your health insurance doesn't cover sports injuries, childbirth, treatments forn people who are overweight, smoke or drink alcohol or are in fact unfit in any way. Because they are all lifestyle choices, last time I checked.

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Wednesday, March 7, 2012 9:22 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Some things just aren't advisable.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 8, 2012 2:01 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
? I've never seen that movie.




O.o

Really? It came out in '92. Dunno what your taste are in movies, but this one was generally liked by most, I'd have to say.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, March 8, 2012 4:27 AM

BYTEMITE


I never said it was wise, I just said people have done it.

No reason for anyone to get baby crazy.

AURAPTOR: I was all of seven years old in 1992.

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