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Originally posted by kpo:
But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

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But here's the reality: You're for the secession of Kosovo because the overwhelming majority was for it, but not for the secession of Crimea even though the overwhelming majority was for it.- SIGNY

I explained clearly why I support Kosovo's secession (and re-posted that explanation multiple times) so there's no need to put words in my mouth. Here it is for a 4th time:

KPO (2014):
"Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such principles as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way.

In the case of Kosovo Crimea ethnic Serbs Ukrainians see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia Ukraine at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian Russian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman Russian control.

But the key factor in support for Kosovan Crimean independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as part of the Ukrainian security forces, carried out against the ethnic Albanian Russian-speaking population in the 90's immediately after the coup. The UN ruled that Serbia coup government had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans [sic] Crimeans to live again under Serbian Ukrainian rule, given the way the Serbian Ukrainian government treated them in the 1990s."

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by kpo:
But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

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You could make the same case against Kiev due to its treatment of ethnic Russians.

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But well done for engaging with my actual words on the subject! Siggy, you could learn something from your rabid ideological bosom-buddy.

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Catalan leader calls for international mediation in Madrid stand-off

MADRID (Reuters) - The leader of Catalonia called for international mediation on Monday to resolve a stand-off with Madrid, the day after hundreds were injured as police tried to forcibly disrupt a referendum on independence that had been ruled illegal.

“It is not a domestic matter,” Carles Puigdemont told a news conference on Monday. “It’s obvious that we need mediation.”

Sunday’s events in the autonomous region dramatically raised the temperature in a festering split between Madrid and Barcelona and made it harder for the two sides to sit down to try to find a political compromise.

Images of riot police using rubber bullets and batons in a show of force to stop the vote shocked Spain and drew international condemnation. Authorities said almost 900 people had been injured. ...

Puigdemont had gone ahead with the referendum in defiance of a court order. On Monday, he said the vote was valid and binding, and had to be applied.

He urged Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to say whether he was in favor of mediation in talks over the region’s future, which he said should be overseen by the European Union. He added that he had received no indication that the EU could sponsor this mediating role, and said Brussels had been timid and lacked courage on the matter.

In a statement issued shortly before Puigdemont made his proposal, the European Commission said: “We call on all relevant players to now move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. Violence can never be an instrument in politics.”

The ballot, which asked voters if they wanted an independent republic, has no legal status as it was banned by Spain’s Constitutional Court for being at odds with the 1978 constitution, which states Spain cannot be broken up.

The overwhelming “Yes” vote among the 42 percent who authorities said had made it to the polls was not a surprise as those favoring continued union had been expected to stay at home en masse. Opinion polls in the run-up to the vote had put support for independence at only around 40 percent.

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On Monday, Justice Minister Rafael Catala said Spain could use its constitutional power to suspend Catalan’s existing autonomy if the regional parliament declared independence.

“We will use the entire force of the law. Our obligation is to resolve problems and we’ll do it, even though using certain measures might hurt,” he said in a television interview.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

In the case of Kosovo Crimea ethnic Serbs Ukrainians see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia Ukraine at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian Russian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman Russian control.

But the key factor in support for Kosovan Crimean independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government Ukrainian neo-Nazis, as part of the Ukrainian security forces, carried out against the ethnic Albanian Russian-speaking population in the 90's immediately after the coup. The UN ruled that Serbia coup government had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans [sic] Crimeans to live again under Serbian Ukrainian rule, given the way the Serbian Ukrainian government treated them in the 1990s."

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So if you want to do a reasoned, point-to-point comparison, how about starting with the points that you made about Kosovo?

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Originally posted by kpo:
... no topic ... trolling ... no facts ... no discussion ... more trolling ... yeah - I have that covered because I'm a sick propagandist sociopathic fuck

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Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

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2. Spread by Russia

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3. Believed by idiots

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

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https://www.icc-cpi.int/legalAidConsultations?name=pr997
Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267
UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”

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2. Spread by Russia

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The ICC and the UN

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3. Believed by idiots

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People who look for facts, instead of sociopathic propagandist fucks.

And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves. Yanno, just to be complete and factual, unlike you.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

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Ukraine accepts ICC jurisdiction over alleged crimes committed between 21 November 2013 and 22 February 2014
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=20267

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UN report on 2014-16 killings in Ukraine highlights “rampant impunity”

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Thank you KIKI for handing KPO's ass to him.

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And btw, the Kosovars weren't innocent of war crimes themselves.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea. If you're going to desperately google "Ukraine war crimes" at least read what you find

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This is the UN report that says the conflict is “fuelled by the inflow of foreign fighters and weapons from Russia", yes?

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Originally posted by 1kiki:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea.

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You have a quote or link for that? No, of course not.

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Today, 17 April 2014, the Registrar of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Herman von Hebel, received a declaration lodged by Ukraine accepting the ICC's jurisdiction

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Ukraine has not ratified the Rome Statute either, but gave the ICC special jurisdiction to oversee the case.

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I love how you, like the perfect lying propagandist troll you are, make things up.

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And right after that is says "Close to 90 per cent of conflict-related civilian deaths have resulted from indiscriminate shelling of residential areas."

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They criticize Ukrainian security forces for many of the deaths at Maidan.

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They criticize the military for killing prisoners. They criticize the military for killing military whistle-blowers. Ukraine police and military come in for a lot of criticism.

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How's that claim going that Kiev has no responsibility for any war crimes in Crimea, EVER?

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Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea.

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Originally posted by kpo:
(a quote or link) It's there in the first line in your own link

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Originally posted by kpo:
By the way, the outcome of that jurisdiction was that last year the ICC ruled that Russia's annexation of Crimea was an "occupation" of Ukrainian territory, and that Russia was waging war against Ukraine in the Donbas.

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Actually - no, it's not. It says Ukraine accepted the jurisdiction - not that Ukraine applied for it.

You DO know the difference between those two words - do you not?

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Originally posted by kpo:
Today, 17 April 2014, the Registrar of the International Criminal Court (ICC), Herman von Hebel, received a declaration lodged by Ukraine accepting the ICC's jurisdiction

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The ICC is based on a treaty, the Rome Statute, joined by 122 countries. A State may decide to ratify the Rome Statute but may also make a declaration under article 12-3 of the Statute declaring its acceptance of the Court's jurisdiction.

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And this has nothing to do with your laughable assertion that Kiev committed no war crimes EVER!

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But, while going through the actual report I did find this tidbit about the UK

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“Lodge” means to deliver to the Clerk a document which is tendered to the Court but is not approved for filing, such as depositions, exhibits, or a proposed form of order.

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lodge: to make formal statement about something to a public organisation or authority

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Originally posted by kpo:
Ukraine applied for this jurisdiction - they're hopeful of getting verdicts against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea.

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Originally posted by kpo:
A declaration lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Keep reading this until it sinks in.
A declaration lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine. Lodged by Ukraine.

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Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda ...

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Ukraine submitted a declaration accepting the ICC's jurisdiction.

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So?

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I have found NO reports by any international or European body that documents evidence the freedom fighters shelled civilians. But there IS evidenced documentation Kiev forces shelled civilians.

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Just for reference, here's your assertion.
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Originally posted by kpo:

In UKRAINE we have:

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Originally posted by krappo:
when in actuality it was Kiev who secured the jurisdiction of the ICC

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Originally posted by krappo:
In Crimea we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

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There's a big difference between 'accepting' and 'securing'.

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Not that I expect a propagandist and chronic liar like you at admit that.

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This is a direct quote from you to Signy, posted Monday, October 2, 2017 2:33 PM. Did I 'doctor people's words'?

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Originally posted by krappo:
when in actuality it was Kiev who secured the jurisdiction of the ICC

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Originally posted by krappo:
In Crimea we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda

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"It's A Coup": Catalan President Slams "Worst Attack" By Spain "Since Franco Dictatorship" the Spanish states' imposition of Article 155 means "liquidation of our self-government and cancellation of the democratic will of Catalans". In other words, he made it quite clear that the region's leaders would not accept direct rule imposed on the region by the Spanish government, as a political crisis that has rattled the economy and raised fears of prolonged unrest showed no signs of easing.

Puigdemont said Rajoy had set out to "humiliate" Catalonia in an "attack on democracy" and said removing powers from Catalonia was the "worst attack against the institutions and the people of Catalonia since the military dictatorship of Francisco Franco".

After taking party in peaceful demonstration, Puigdemont expressed his rejection of Madrid’s move, but stopped short of saying he would make good his threat to push ahead with the independence bid before direct rule takes effect.

“I ask the (Catalan) parliament to meet in a plenary session during which we, the representatives of the citizens’ sovereignty, will be able to decide over this attempt to liquidate our government and our democracy, and act in consequence,” Puigdemont said in a televised address.

Puigdemont also said Spain "closed the doors ot a request for talks, and should set a date to discuss the attack" and "Catalan institutions cannot accept attack by Spain."

In a striking accusation, the Catalan president said that "Catalan institutions dealt a coup by Spanish state." Puigdemont then switched to English to appeal to Europeans, says democracy also at risk in Europe: "Catalonia is an ancient European nation". He also announced a session in Catalan parliament to debate "the attempt to liquidate our self-government".

Puigdemont concluded by saying "Long live Catalonia" to which a silently listening crowd suddenly burst back into cheers and chanting.

However, as noted, Puigdemont did not specifically declare independence, but said Catalonia will not accept Madrid's plan to curb region's powers, leaving one tiny, final loophole.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
And the question remains, krappo. Why are YOU so accepting of YOUR government repeatedly lying to its citizens? Here's one example: Tony Blair 'misrepresented intelligence on weapons of mass destruction to gain approval for Iraq War'

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Yeah, pretty much any argument with you on any topic will lead here:

KRAPO: "RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! !!!!!!!!"

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Political truths by incessant repetition."

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by kpo:

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For the same reason that I haven't "voiced my support" of an independent Donbas

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Yes you have. From the Russia invades Ukraine thread:

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Let's assume that there is a portion of Ukraine where a clear majority wants separation. Let's assume it was a vote that even YOU would agree was free and fair. Would you allow it? -SIGNY
Only if Ukraine permitted it. -KPO
That's the difference between us, I guess. You really DO want to build societies on guns and bombs. Personally, I have no problems with separatists. I think the results of free and fair votes should be rewarded. - SIGNY

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It seems your position on separatist movements has 'evolved' quite a bit.

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The ONLY multi-state entity which peacefully dissolved was the Soviet Union.

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Czechoslovakia? Serbia and Montenegro? Just off the top of my head.

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All foreign powers use secessionist movements to expand their control... The USA is EXCELLENT at that

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Funny all those secession movements on Russia's border - you don't suppose Russia is responsible for those at all?

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Kosovo is too small to sustain itself economically

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Who decides that a nation is viable or not? You? Not the people themselves? This is just a way for you to dodge the question.

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SECESSION IS A COMPLEX SITUATION, KPO

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Uh-huh, which is what I said. And your point with this thread is what then?
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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria -
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS -
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

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Poor Sigs - it was fun at first and then...

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
It makes us right about what you are wrong about - our governments lie to us. Often. Repeatedly. Consistently.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Sure. In Kosovo we have:

1. Systematic war crimes - massacres, ethnic cleansing, etc
2. Carried out by government forces
3. Confirmed by UN reports, ICC rulings, etc.

In Crimea we have:

1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
2. Spread by Russia
3. Believed by idiots.

So, in the absence of any kind of evidence of war crimes in Crimea, one wonders what kind of nonsense arguments you've got lined up next. Some trumped up, Russian propaganda-hyped "war crimes" in other parts of Ukraine? (as if the separatists are not guilty of this, lol). Isolated incidents like the Odessa fire, which was not carried out by the Ukrainian government and certainly wasn't part of anything "systematic"?

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