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Oh well Sig, at least plenty of ordinary working people will get hurt.- KRAPO Now THAT is something I'm sure you'll laugh over! - SIGNY

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What the advocates of "multiculturalism" don't seem to realize is that there are no international democratic institutions. All of the international structures, like the EU, "free trade" agreements, and even the UN, are out of the reach of most people.

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We can't vote on any of the policies that are decided on by international committees, technocrats, and arbitrators. If people were to look with any sort of clarity on the role of the Eurocrats in bringing unending unemployment to people of Southern Europe and how their economies are being sacrificed to support the Euro (currency), and how "free trade" agreements will ensure that decisions about the environment, labor, food safety etc. will be made by trade lawyers in secret courts only on the basis of their effect on international trade, "internationalism" stops looking so good.

By handing over the ability to take control of their own national policies, people have given up on being able to control ANY policy. And they've given it up and gotten nothing in return except a warm, fuzzy, meaningless feeling.

What is so wrong with wanting to be able to set national policies, to control (or at least manage) the production and flow of goods, the value of your national currency, and the number of people immigrating to your country? Who would rather have policy set by some faceless, distant bureaucrat five borders away? Don't we have enough problems of non-responsive government already, without making it a lot worse?

Curiously, judging by some of the people on this board, their warm fuzzy feeling of world solidarity ends the moment they encounter someone who TRULY thinks differently. One of the things that is beginning to horrify Germans, for example, is their encounter with large a large group of people who have entirely different views about what's right and wrong, what's important and unimportant, and who should decide. So even the self-congratulatory feeling of being a "person of the world" comes to a screeching halt when some of the other people of the world are TOO different, and those differences go beyond tasty food and interesting music. So much for multiculturalism!

At the same time that these mental midgets insist that they are persons of the world who value other cultures, they think nothing of bombing the snot out whole nations!

May I suggest a national identity that will be far more progressive than the one they currently follow? It has a few key elements:

FIRST, DO NO HARM.
As a nation of the world, one is not entitled to destroy other nations EXCEPT in direct self-defense. Bringing god to the heathens or Bringing democracy to the tyrannies or R2P at the point of a gun just never seems to work well. Historically, all it's managed to do is kill a shitload of people and install even worse tyrannies than before.

PLAY FAIR: TRADE FAIR
Don't economically exploit your fellow-nations. Now, generally, the exploitation is imposed at the point of a gun, so if you're not pointing your gun at another nation to begin with, you probably won't be able to hijack their resources or their labor or their markets. But just in case that's a little too distant in terms of cause-and-effect, take care not to work through entities which extract huge profits, especially those that rely on corrupting or intimidating their "business partners". (And it's not like Nestle and Apple and Walmart don't know what they're doing.)

NEITHER A BORROWER NOR A LENDER BE
This works for internal financing as well as international relations. I know that international banking is the lifeblood of London (as well as international real estate) but Everests of unpayable debt simply don't lead to future prosperity, for anyone.

MIND YOUR OWN GARDEN
The best thing a nation can do, aside from not mucking around in other nations, is to improve the standard of living within their own borders without stealing from others. By creating a prosperous nation, you serve as a constant reminder to the victims of tyrants everywhere that another way is possible.

IF YOU WANT TO HELP, HELP
If the sight of corrupt, impoverished, brutalized nations drives you to distraction, and you're sure that you have in no way aided and abetted that process, then find some way to HELP. It could be anything from helping to drill wells to building schools, but real development, which helps real people, is the best way to move a nation out of bondage. Once people have a little extra food and some education, they can afford to start thinking about other, more abstract factors.

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Listening to the interview of a well-connected man, he said one thing that pointed to the future of Brexit. The reaction of the Eurocrats was that there should be two characteristics of Brexit:

1) It should be PAINFUL.
Contagion is to be avoided at all costs. No other nation should even think to leave the EU, with Britain hanging from a gibbet as an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbeting Apparently, the EU doesn't think much of democracy and is willing to thwart it whether it happens in Greece or in the UK or anywhere else. Or, as Steimeir (German FM said)

"We won't let anyone [including the people, apparently] take Europe from us".

I can't imagine what punishment they'll cook up, but I'm sure it's a doozy! And who is "we" and "us" anyway?

2) It should be QUICK.
EU ministers believe that waiting until Cameron steps down and the Tories find a new PM -in October- is far too much uncertainty for the markets. Well, that right there pretty much tells you who they represent.

Again, assuming that TPTB don't find a way to block Brexit, I don't expect it to be easy. The closest example I can think of is Iceland, which went on a huge borrowing binge pre-2008. Man, it was party-time nationwide! But once their three major banks crashed in an orgy of self-dealing and corruption, the Icelanders did what no one else has done: They let their banks fold, nationalized them, and threw the bankers in jail. And this was AFTER the Parliament had voted to cave in! Iceland, like Britain, had a huge advantage over many other EU member states: It still had its own currency.

But while Icelanders did the right thing, they paid a price: Britain declared Iceland to be a "terrorist state" (for refusing to back British deposits in the Icelandic bank branches in Britain) and froze the Landsbanki assets in Britain, and British allies declared a freeze on all Icelandic assets everywhere. Iceland, in the throes of a financial crisis and a liquidity crisis, and with its financial lifelines cut, had to go begging for a creative loan from China. And although Iceland came through the ordeal in the end, their living standard has taken a hit: People are working harder for less.

I think there's a couple of reasons for that, but one of them is that a nation living within its means will never feel as prosperous as one borrowing to the hilt and partying like there's no tomorrow. Being responsible isn't going to be as much fun, there's no two ways about it. Britain - London, specially- is THE banking center of Europe. The British pound is (was?) unprecedentedly valued, making British purchases from the EU very cheap. In fact, that's one immediate complaint of young people: I won't be able to holiday in Europe like I used to.

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The formal process of unwinding Britain’s membership in the EU begins only when the British government invokes Article 50 of the treaty governing the bloc’s operations.

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I guess we get to see HOW well-capitalized the banks really are! - SIGNY

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The stocks suffering the biggest percentage declines in premarket trade Monday can blame Brexit for their woes. The U.S.-listed shares of Barclays PLC BCS, -20.92% plunged 24%, after tumbling 20% on Friday. The stock was on track to open at the lowest level since March 25, 2009. The next biggest decliners were the U.S.-listed shares of Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC RBS, -12.85% which plummeted 20% toward the lowest price seen since Jan. 26, 2009, and Lloyds Banking Group PLC LYG, -15.77% which plummeted 17% toward the lowest level seen since Nov. 16, 2012. On Friday, shares of both RBS and Lloyds had tumbled 23%. The selloff in U.K. bank stocks continued to spill over to their U.S.-based peers, with the SPDR Financial ETF XLF, -2.51% shedding 1.5% ahead of the open after tumbling 5.4% on Friday. Among XLF components, shares of Bank of America Corp. BAC, -5.23% slumped 1.8%, Citigroup Inc. C, -3.02% shed 1.9% and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. JPM, -3.15% dropped 1.6%.

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That's beyond RICH coming from someone who has expressed zero concern for the Syrian civilians being slaughtered every day by Assad/Russian forces - you have made no comment while KPO has kept us continually updated.

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Originally posted by G:

John Oliver's take.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

President Of The European Parliament: "It Is Not The EU Philosophy That The Crowd Can Decide Its Fate"

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I think the ordinary Brits had finally had it. And unlike the Greeks, who are too puny to get out of the maw that is the GermanEU, the Brits escaped.

Reading the various links, EVERYTHING that people criticize about the various free-trade agreements like NAFTA, CAFTA, TPP, and TTIP - lack of environmental or worker accountability, lack of ability to enforce national standards and laws, lack of democratic input - was true of the EU. But wait, there's more! It extended to banking, finance, labor - even travel. No wonder the London bankers were agin Brexit! It looks like it cuts London off from its lucrative 'head of European financialism' role, which takes a huge chunk out of its foreign sphere of ... influence is too weak a word ... dominance.

I think I got the gist.

The bansktas and the banskta city of London liked the EU, most everyone else disliked it.

]

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I've seen a number of films about the poverty rates in England, which are astronomical. On top of that it sold off its public health system and cut back its aid to the impoverished. All of that is putting people either close to being on the street or on it, with not enough to live on, fearing simple illness as the last thing that will finally do them in.

People don't quibble over the kinds of jobs immigrants take, unless they're scraping that level of employment themselves.

I have no problems with foreigners just because they're foreign. But I THINK people in England react to foreigners the way they do because they feel they've been ripped off by the system, abandoned by government, and unfairly made to compete with all the extra people coming into the country for whatever scraps are left. I THINK what's going on with immigrants comes down to money.

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Originally posted by second:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

President Of The European Parliament: "It Is Not The EU Philosophy That The Crowd Can Decide Its Fate"

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In March 1991, the citizens of nine Soviet states voted in a referendum on whether to hold together the country in a way that devolved power out to the republics. Championed by Mikhail Gorbachev as a way to avoid a potential “disaster for this country, for Europeans, for the entire world,” the referendum passed.

The vote triggered a cascade of unexpected consequences, most prominently a coup attempt against Gorbachev that August. And on Dec. 26, 1991 — nine months after the referendum — the Soviet Union ceased to exist.

For Britons, the Soviet collapse may be a lesson in the unintended consequences of referendums.

Not only could the EU come apart, with other member states deciding it is each man for himself, but so too could the UK itself — with Scotland and Northern Ireland perhaps electing to stay with the EU, leaving a shrunken England.
http://qz.com/717786/for-britons-the-soviet-collapse-may-be-a-lesson-i
n-the-unintended-consequences-of-referendums/

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France and Germany reported to have drawn up 'superstate plan'
It would mean members give up armies and economic power to the EU
Report 'leaked' in Poland where it has been branded 'not the solution'
Leaders of Germany, France and Italy said EU was 'indispensable'

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Germany's foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and his French counterpart Jean-Marc Ayrault today presented a proposal for closer EU integration based on three key areas - internal and external security, the migrant crisis, and economic cooperation.

But the plans have been described as an 'ultimatum' in Poland, with claims it would mean countries transfer their armies, economic systems and border controls to the EU.

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The plans have been 'leaked' to a Polish television channel and the country's foreign minister Witold Waszczykowski is said to be 'outraged'

Zaoralek added that the four eastern members had reservations about the proposed common security policy.

Eastern members have become increasingly jittery on security issues since Moscow used so-called "hybrid warfare", or undeclared covert tactics - to annex the Crimean peninsula from Ukraine in 2014.

Poland's public TVP described the Franco-German proposal as an "ultimatum" designed to create a European "superstate dominated by large nations."

Ayrault described the Franco-German proposal as a "contribution", adding that there would be "others".

According to the Daily Express, the nine-page report has 'outraged' its foreign minister Witold Waszczykowski.

He said: 'This is not a good solution, of course, because from the time the EU was invented a lot has changed.

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It appears The Brits may have dodged more than a bullet in their decision to leave The EU. The foreign ministers of France and Germany are reportedly due to reveal a blueprint to effectively do away with individual member states in what is being described as an "ultimatum." As The Express reports, the shockingly predictable final solution to Europe's Brexit-driven existential crisis is an apparently long-held plan to morph the continent’s countries into one giant superstate. The radical proposals mean EU countries will lose the right to have their own army, criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels. According to the Daily Express, the nine-page report has "outraged" some EU leaders.

The plans for 'a closer European Union' have been branded an attempt to create a 'European superstate', as The Daily Mail reports,

Germany's foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier and his French counterpart Jean-Marc Ayrault today presented a proposal for closer EU integration based on three key areas - internal and external security, the migrant crisis, and economic cooperation.

But the plans have been described as an 'ultimatum' in Poland, with claims it would mean countries transfer their armies, economic systems and border controls to the EU.

Controversially member states would also lose what few controls they have left over their own borders, including the procedure for admitting and relocating refugees.

The Express reports that the plot has sparked fury and panic in Poland - a traditional ally of Britain in the fight against federalism - after being leaked to Polish news channel TVP Info.

The public broadcaster reports that the bombshell proposal will be presented to a meeting of the Visegrad group of countries - made up of Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia - by German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier later today.

Excerpts of the nine-page report were published today as the leaders of Germany, France and Italy met in Berlin for Brexit crisis talks.

In the preamble to the text the two ministers write: "Our countries share a common destiny and a common set of values that give rise to an even closer union between our citizens. We will therefore strive for a political union in Europe and invite the next Europeans to participate in this venture."

Responding to the plot Polish Foreign Minister Witold Waszczykowski raged: "This is not a good solution, of course, because from the time the EU was invented a lot has changed.

“The mood in European societies is different. Europe and our voters do not want to give the Union over into the hands of technocrats. “Therefore, I want to talk about this, whether this really is the right recipe right now in the context of a Brexit."

There are deep divides at the heart of the EU at the moment over how to proceed with the project in light of the Brexit vote.

Some figures have cautioned against trying to force through further political integration, warning that to do so against the wishes of the European people will only fuel further Eurosceptic feeling.

Czech minister Lubomír Zaorálek added that the four eastern members had reservations about the proposed common security policy.

Meanwhile Lorenzo Condign, the former director general of Italy’s treasury, has said it is nearly impossible to see Europe opting for more integration at such a time of upheaval.

He said: “It seems difficult to imagine that the rest of the EU will close ranks and move in the direction of greater integration quickly. Simply, there is no political will.

“Indeed, the risk is exactly the opposite - namely that centrifugal forces will prevail and make integration even more difficult.”

It seems the infamous phrase "never let a crisis go to waste" has not been lost on EU officialdom.

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SIG

So OOC SECOND, what would have happened if the Soviet Union, in response to "losing" East Germany, decided to impose more stringent control over its satellite states instead of experiencing a cascade of referenda and dissolution? Maybe it would have looked like this...

France and Germany ‘draw up plans to morph EU countries into one with control over members’ armies and economies’

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

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SIG

So OOC SECOND, what would have happened if the Soviet Union, in response to "losing" East Germany, decided to impose more stringent control over its satellite states instead of experiencing a cascade of referenda and dissolution? Maybe it would have looked like this...

France and Germany ‘draw up plans to morph EU countries into one with control over members’ armies and economies’

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Lets not forget that these so called satellite states were once free nations devoured by Russia during WW11. Russia had to build walls to keep people in. Of course they ran for the hills as soon as they could. Their still trying to cut their ties to Russia. And Russia is try with all it's might to keep them in servitude.

Hey SIG, name another country in the world that had to build walls to keep its people from fleeing.

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It's called globalization. It's a good idea and it was working to an extent. The problem was our leaders were stupid and let the greedy win out. Companies chose slave labor over fair wages. We needed smart trade instead of free trade so we could move more slowly and create less victims. That is what the Brexit vote was about. That's why Donald Trump has had such success.- THUGR

Had remain won the referendum, the EU would have become hostage to British sabotage. Future British prime ministers would veto any fundamental change, correctly arguing that their people had voted only for the current set-up of the EU. Britain would continue to demand ever more opt-outs and concessions – playing to the fantasy that membership is a British favor to the rest of Europe. The British press and Europhobe politicians would go on portraying the EU in the most lurid, mendacious and derisory terms. The problem with Britain was not that it was critical of the EU. The problem was bad faith and delusional thinking.

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Bad faith and delusional thinking is Trump's way. His entire business model is built on bad faith: intentional deceit of others and self-deception. His government would be the same. Check Trump's failed Baja condo resort --
www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-baja-snap-story.html

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO, wherever did you get the idea that I was anything but FOR ordinary working people?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
FROM http://www.fireflyfans.net/mreply.aspx?q=y&mid=1012876

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It's called globalization. It's a good idea and it was working to an extent. The problem was our leaders were stupid and let the greedy win out. Companies chose slave labor over fair wages. We needed smart trade instead of free trade so we could move more slowly and create less victims. That is what the Brexit vote was about. That's why Donald Trump has had such success.- THUGR

Had remain won the referendum, the EU would have become hostage to British sabotage. Future British prime ministers would veto any fundamental change, correctly arguing that their people had voted only for the current set-up of the EU. Britain would continue to demand ever more opt-outs and concessions – playing to the fantasy that membership is a British favor to the rest of Europe. The British press and Europhobe politicians would go on portraying the EU in the most lurid, mendacious and derisory terms. The problem with Britain was not that it was critical of the EU. The problem was bad faith and delusional thinking.

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On whose part? The Eurocrats?

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Bad faith and delusional thinking is Trump's way. His entire business model is built on bad faith: intentional deceit of others and self-deception. His government would be the same. Check Trump's failed Baja condo resort --
www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-baja-snap-story.html]

Wow that's a harsh critique second. It's hard to give up ones sovereignty. Britain felt it was subject to a lot of bad decisions made by unelected officials from Brussels.

The EU was created to help France and Germany get together in peace. They had I think 3 wars in 70 years. The only way I think it would work is with all countries giving up their identity, borders and autonomy. Not going to happen. When we add global warming to the mix, all the migration it is starting to cause which will only get worse, we will see Britain's leaving is just the beginning.-THUGR

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Copied to here

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I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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Yeah OK this is nothing but a fucking mess. You quote me and another here as though it is all me. Again it has to be pointed out to you that your bullshit posting is ad hoc ( formed, arranged, or done for a particular purpose only ). The purpose is to deceive. It's just another lie by you. Why, because once again you just can't make the case as to why you are right and not wrong.

Add to that your cut and pasted bushtit of subjective nonsense because you can't formulate your own thoughts and there you have it. More SIG CRAP.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
I have heard that the UK paid 18 Billion each year just to be in the EU, coming out of taxpayer's pockets, consumed by nobody in Brussells who is elected. And how much did UK taxpayers cough up for Greece keeping all of it's citizens sitting on their duff, avoiding work like the plague?

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I have heard that the UK paid 18 Billion each year just to be in the EU, coming out of taxpayer's pockets, consumed by nobody in Brussells who is elected. And how much did UK taxpayers cough up for Greece keeping all of it's citizens sitting on their duff, avoiding work like the plague?- JSF

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The European Union is going to need a real opposition political party: One that can formulate a coherent alternate policy agenda and give dissatisfied voters the opportunity to “throw the bums out” without tearing down the entire institutional edifice they inhabit.

So far, Europe’s main center-left party has been too intellectually timid, too hungry for patronage, and too subordinate to local agendas to play that role. But to save the European Project, someone needs to speak strongly against the people currently managing it. Excessive partisan polarization has its flaws, but Europe is currently being brought to its knees by an absence of partisanship.- SECOND

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KPO, wherever did you get the idea that I was anything but FOR ordinary working people?- SIGNY

So you believe this Brexit result that you're cheering will benefit ordinary working British people?- KPO

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
There is no platform thru which "a" "European" opposition can make itself felt.

As you yourself posted, the European Commission is THE decision-making body (not the Parliament) and the European Commission is NOT ELECTED. In fact, all aspects of the EU are NOT ELECTED. The Council of Ministers, appointed. The head of the European Central Bank, appointed. The European Commission, appointed. All of those commissions, all of those Eurocrats in Brussels thinking about how to "harmonize" regulations and internal security - appointed.

The EU, in order to be at all democratic, would need an entire structural makeover. Key decision-making authorities would have to be made elected bodies. Until then, it is undemocratic in the extreme, and simply rolls over its member-states and their Parliaments no matter how they feel about

Immigration (Poland, Austria, Czech republic, etc)
Austerity (Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland)
Anti-Russian sanctions (Italy, France)

It's not a case of parties being "too timid", it's a case of there being NO ROOM FOR DEMOCRACY in the structure of the EU itself.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

People vote for one thing, and they get something entirely different. That's the EU for you!

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It is possible to fix the undemocratic EU, but not possible if the UK’s government is sabotaging it.

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Hee hee. A really good movie imho. I have also seen one of these for "They cancelled Firefly???"

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KPO: do you think Cameron is being a bit, hmmmm, weak by running away from this?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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KPO, wherever did you get the idea that I was anything but FOR ordinary working people?- SIGNY

So you believe this Brexit result that you're cheering will benefit ordinary working British people?- KPO

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No. I believe Brexit will give ordinary working people the CHANCE to improve their lives by taking control of their government.

Until Brexit, the ordinary working people of Britain had no chance at all. They were in thrall to the European Commission over which ordinary working people anywhere in the EU have no say at all.

Nothing is certain, but if the Brits do it right, they can come through this like Iceland did.

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Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
So far the Dow has only dropped about 600 points.
Many are making it sound like mayhem.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
If you look at the growth rate in England it is at 7 plus percent since the crash. The rest of Europe excluding Germany is 0.3 % or so. If you look at the unemployment rate England is at around 5. something present. From there it goes to like 17% in Spain. England is paying in much more to Europe than it is getting back.

Also the English are looking at the future. Many refuse to realize that with global warming Europe is going to be very vulnerable to immigrants migrating to Europe in numbers that dwarf what they are dealing with now.

A major consequence to England could be Scotland voting to leave England so they may stay in the EU. Big misstate because the EU is a failed experiment. Watch Ireland as well. These directly effect the United Kingdom. Other European countries will follow England's lead. This does not affect NATO.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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It is possible to fix the undemocratic EU, but not possible if the UK’s government is sabotaging it.

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The EU was 100% unmotivated to "fix" ANYthing until the Brexit vote. Then, all of a sudden, they started talking about making the EU "relevant" to ordinary people, and "delivering results".

The EU commissioners, technocrats, and councilors have NO INTENTION of reforming anything. They're hoping to punish the Brits for having the temerity to leave, like an abusive husband who is both shocked and offended that his wife ... actually ... left him. I'm not seeing ANY move towards greater democracy.

If anything the EU is doubling down on the usual carrots and sticks- NOW they're talking about an EU army to "keep the peace within their borders" (Maybe Greece needs to be invaded, yanno? Or Poland!) And they've broken their own policy of not allowing individual governments to bail out their own banks unless the shareholders and depositors have been "bailed in" first by allowing ITALY to provide guarantees against its own banks, to PREVENT A RUN ON ITALIAN BANKS.

With the EU, it's not about "rules" it's all about power. Germany has the first say, France has the second, and Italy has the third (but only on small things, and only if German and France agree with it). Meanwhile, they will browbeat and extort Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Poland ... any nation too small to stand up for itself.

You have fantasies of TPTB ... the Dems, Obama, Hillary, the EU, Merkel, Hollande ... being "nice people", believing that they think about your (our) safety and prosperity. A sort of West Wing vision of politics. In reality we are only so much fodder for their dreams of wealth and power. When they're not thinking about how to get MORE MONEY they're thinking about creating a nice safe post-job niche/ hidey hole. And when they're not thinking about that, they're thinking about how to dismember their political enemies who are, after all, fighting for the same piece of monetary pie.

I think it's time you disabused yourself of that pleasant little fairy tale about our fearless leaders being some sort of surrogate daddy or mommy, laying awake at night thinking about how to protect the kids. HA! In reality, they're thinking about who to sell them to so that can get a few more shekels in their pockets.

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I'll tell you what I DON'T like about Trump: I think that he has never confronted either the international banking cartel, nor the CIA-State Dept multi-headed hydra, nor the military-industrial complex. The last person to confront them was JFK (BTW, ALL immigration was illegal under JFK) and look what happened to him.

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