If all your friends jumped off a cliff ... by rue

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

If you were in a small minority - what would you publicly stand up for?

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Monday, November 20, 2006 9:15 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If you were in a small minority - what would you publicly stand up for?

Keeping in mind that there are no small issues, only small people here's my top 5 issues I support that most folk don't:

1. Hot lesbian rights. Can't say I generally support the gay agenda...but I do support the hot lesbian agenda.

2. State funded 2nd Amendment education. I see a world where a kid gets a diploma with one hand and a shotgun with the other.

3. Lemon use restrictions. Lemons should not be used for things like flavoring for tea, fish, or as pudding or in pie. We should have strict control over products and services lemons can be used for...like lemonade, nothing wrong with lemonade, but lemon wedges in water...thats so wrong.

4. Limited state-sanctioned slavery (or perhaps a draft of some kind) for certain actors, writers, directors. For example, Robert Jordan is way behind in finishing up the Wheel of Time series. I say he should be locked up with a computer and forced to finish it. Joss should be chained to a movie set to make Serenity sequels, made for TV Buffy movies, etc.

5. People who don't vote every year should lose that right. They can get it back, but they should have to earn it...

There, my agenda. Think I can be President?

Also, if all your friends jumped off a cliff you might be so distraught that you could conceivably follow them out of grief, not peer pressure.

H

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Monday, November 20, 2006 11:56 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If you were in a small minority - what would you publicly stand up for?

1. Hot lesbian rights. Can't say I generally support the gay agenda...but I do support the hot lesbian agenda.

Uh...

Honestly, I can't say that I'd like to see anyone suffering with severe fever. As such, I have to be against hot lesbians.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
2. State funded 2nd Amendment education. I see a world where a kid gets a diploma with one hand and a shotgun with the other.

I'm seriously hoping you mean a college diploma/degree, as I would certainly not endorse distributing anything larger than moderate-calibre handguns to high school graduates. (Naturally, post grads would thus qualify for artillery, etc.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
3. Lemon use restrictions. Lemons should not be used for things like flavoring for tea, fish, or as pudding or in pie. We should have strict control over products and services lemons can be used for...like lemonade, nothing wrong with lemonade, but lemon wedges in water...thats so wrong.

Ahh. Good idea, but someone has already beaten you to it. While I'm not certain how strictly they may be enforced, several states (including mine) already have lemon laws on the books.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
4. Limited state-sanctioned slavery (or perhaps a draft of some kind) for certain actors, writers, directors. For example, Robert Jordan is way behind in finishing up the Wheel of Time series. I say he should be locked up with a computer and forced to finish it. Joss should be chained to a movie set to make Serenity sequels, made for TV Buffy movies, etc.

I have to whole-heartedly disagree with this one.

Art cannot be forced.

While the "artistic" community does tend to draw individuals mainly of a -- (wince) -- liberal background (often fully overlooking persons with a conservative bent) it would be unfair to conscript individuals in an attempt to force their participation in such a manner. As should be painfully obvious, whenever one attempts to force art they get -- uh -- well, most of what we find on TV, in literature and the cinemas these days. As such, I have to continue to support a strictly voluntarily involvement in the arts.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
5. People who don't vote every year should lose that right. They can get it back, but they should have to earn it...

"Earn it"??? Uh, do you mean by proving competency?

Again, I'm afraid I have to protest. If we demanded an educated citizenry to vote, well -- the Democrats would all lose their jobs, and we know how disasterous that would be.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
There, my agenda. Think I can be President?

Probably not. The liberal media have no sense of humor, and would undoubtedly quote the above facetious passages as evidence of severe mental derangement.

Although, to be called "deranged" by a liberal should (at least in my book) be carried as a badge of honor.

For the record, as related to the initial query by Rue, I'd first want to know what induced my friends to jump off a cliff. They might've had a good reason (like the people in the second Jurassic Park film -- where they were being chased by two Tyrannosaurus).

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Monday, November 20, 2006 12:00 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If you were in a small minority - what would you publicly stand up for?

I'm so sorry Rue, it looks like your thread has been defiled by two trolls.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Monday, November 20, 2006 12:01 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

It's wandering slightly off the point but... isn't there a Russian movie about a bunch of writers locked in a room until they finish writing a movie about how wonderful Russia is? If I remember correctly it was all pretty much written from the writers' personal experiences. In fact, I think they were locked in the room when they wrote it! And managed to turn it into a movie about how wonderful Russia is. Somehow.

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Monday, November 20, 2006 12:02 PM

TRISTAN

I know, this is meant to be a possibly serious discussion, but I have always wanted to answer that question, and I have had years to develop it, and now I have the chance to post them. Sorry.

The people I call friends are not given to lemming-like behavior. If they did all choose to jump off a cliff, there would be a comelling reason they did so. I would be forced to evaluate this reason and would probably end up following them.

Ok, so maybe it's not the best in the world....

______________________________________

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Thursday, November 23, 2006 6:44 PM

I am already in a small minority, publically standing up for things very few people support. In fact, I am so anti-lemming some people (ahem) have accused me of being pathologically antiestablishment or being a wacko conspiracy theorist or whatever. My list is long, but here are some that come to mind.

1. Libertarianism and individual sovereignty. End all income tax, all govt regulation, all foreign aid and interference, etc.

2. Vaccine choice and exemptions from mandatory vaccinations. Let people decide if they want to vaccinate their kids without negative consequences.

3. Homeschooling rights. End or minimize govt regulation on homeschooling.

4. Homebirthing rights. End legal persecution of homebirthing professionals and accord homebirths the same standard for "acts of God" as hospital births.

5. The real 9/11 story. Conduct a credible investigation on what happened around and on 9/11.

Really, it all comes down to this: I just want freedom. As much as I can get. That's all.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.
--Will Rogers (1879 - 1935), quoted in Saturday Review, Aug. 25, 1962

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:35 AM

SIMONWHO

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
2. Vaccine choice and exemptions from mandatory vaccinations. Let people decide if they want to vaccinate their kids without negative consequences.

The only issue with that is some people might consider the death of their kids to be a negative consequence. Ribbit.

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:

Honestly, I can't say that I'd like to see anyone suffering with severe fever. As such, I have to be against hot lesbians.

I also would like to be against hot lesbians. Very much so.

If all my friends jumped off a cliff... I was probably the one who told them there was an invisible bridge to the other side.

I'm pretty contrary anyway so people aren't that surprised when I say "You're wrong" about something.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 1:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
I am already in a small minority, publically standing up for things very few people support. In fact, I am so anti-lemming some people (ahem) have accused me of being pathologically antiestablishment or being a wacko conspiracy theorist or whatever. My list is long, but here are some that come to mind.

1. Libertarianism and individual sovereignty. End all income tax, all govt regulation, all foreign aid and interference, etc.

2. Vaccine choice and exemptions from mandatory vaccinations. Let people decide if they want to vaccinate their kids without negative consequences.

3. Homeschooling rights. End or minimize govt regulation on homeschooling.

4. Homebirthing rights. End legal persecution of homebirthing professionals and accord homebirths the same standard for "acts of God" as hospital births.

5. The real 9/11 story. Conduct a credible investigation on what happened around and on 9/11.

Really, it all comes down to this: I just want freedom. As much as I can get. That's all.

Have you ever thought of buying you'rself a shack in the woods somewhere and never coming into contact with humans ever again? I think it has real possibliities for you.

I mean, you could make moonshine - saw some guy on a t.v show the other day doing that, pretty sure the tax men wern't that hot on his trail (though posssibly were after he made his t.v. apperence)he wasn't to clear, but very fond of possums as I recall..
I mean, if you manage to have kids out there, home birthing and home schooling are gonna be pretty much a given, seein as the nearest school would be an epic journey away, and i don't see any health professional responding to your call.
Not that you could make a call, cause you wouldn't have a phone.
And then not vaccinating your kids - that'd happen as well. Its not that they wouldn't care about your kids enough to stop them from dying in a wholly unescessary way, just that your kids would never get near enough to other kids to pass the disease on. Thats the point of mass vaccination see - stops easily preventable diseases becoming the killers of thousands that they used to be. But your kids'd be well out of the way, so they couldn't do much damage before they croaked.

You know, I actually agree with you on point five, an unbiased, agenda free investigation into the terrorist attacks of recent years would be a very good thing, but seeing as you'd be living in your shack doing your best to avoid society, stirring your moonshine and patting yourself on the back for avoiding anything that might possibly benefit the greater majority, watching your sickly, backward children crawl about the lawn, I can't see why on earth you'd actually give a s***.

As for jumping off cliffs - its the suckers option, if they really had to do it i'd be stood at the top giving them a resigned wave, just wishing it'd all been different somehow.

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:

Thats the point of mass vaccination see - stops easily preventable diseases becoming the killers of thousands that they used to be. But your kids'd be well out of the way, so they couldn't do much damage before they croaked.

Vaccination moved away from being that which you described, and onto a money-making scheme for the medical industrial complex, like insurance for cars. Some vaccination has been critical for general public health, but why, for instance, vaccinate a baby for hepititus when there is none present in the parents? Babies don't generally share needles when shooting heroine.
BTW, do you know HOW they prepare vaccines in general? Eeewwwwwww.

Just sayin' Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 4:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
Have you ever thought of buying you'rself a shack in the woods somewhere and never coming into contact with humans ever again?

That's the thing about being anti-lemming: one gets ridiculed a lot. It is interesting to me that wanting "too much" freedom is considered flaky.

Chris, thanks for your note on the vaccine industry. You've never been mean, no matter how wacko someone is on this board. That's an awesome human quality.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are right more than half the time.
--E. B. White (1899 - 1985), New Yorker, July 3, 1944

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Friday, November 24, 2006 4:37 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Vaccination moved away from being that which you described, and onto a money-making scheme for the medical industrial complex, like insurance for cars. Some vaccination has been critical for general public health, but why, for instance, vaccinate a baby for hepititus when there is none present in the parents? Babies don't generally share needles when shooting heroine.
BTW, do you know HOW they prepare vaccines in general? Eeewwwwwww.

That doesn't mean vaccinations are bad, just that your system for providing them is, to get all street on yo punk ass "Wacked" don't you know dear boy.

Your medical industry is a for profit industry instead of a service, then some wonder why it's run for the good of the profit rather than the good of the patient. Erm, hello?

Vaccines aren't bad, and saying "no it's okay you don't have to vaccinate if you don't want to" makes all vaccinations pointless. Vaccinations have more or less wiped out certain diseases where they have been used. What about the freedom of other people to not be willfully exposed to diseases?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 4:53 AM

I've no doubt that alot of companies, given control over a drug that a lot of people want is going to abuse it to make as much money as they can - it the kind of sick mentality that prevails sadly. I also think where we differ is that in this country our imunisation programmes - from birth through to the end of school and in some cases beyond - are free on the NHS, there fore avoiding cost issues at the individual level.

But even if i had to pay for it i would still do my absolute best to have my children immunised.

See theres a long list of diseases that used to kill thousands every year until quite recently that immunisation, in conjunction with improved nutrition and hygeine have been all almost eradicated in the west, and are still raging in developing countries with no immunisation programmes.

Plus take into consideration the recent scare over MMR jabs in this country (in this case, it wasn't actually the vaccine, but a preservative causing the problems) So now hundreds of children up and down the land are vulnerable to the diseases, meaning that if it gets here (and its very possible that it will), we have quite a tragic epidemic on our hands and hundreds of children, if not killed, are going to be left severly affected.

As for hepatitis in particular - there are several types, and i'm no expert, but i'm pretty sure they are contracted through bodily fluids. So say a mother contracts it through any one on of the possible ways - breastfeeding is going to become a really bad idea.

As for CanttakeSky. Oh thats was a pointed comment - be careful, you might hurt my feelings.
My comments were an emotional reaction, yes, but what else kind of reaction can you have to a person given a great world to live in who when given the freedom to champion causes as they see fit, chooses such self-serving and insular ones?

you're entire post, where you set yourself up as such a noble misunderstood fighter, was based on the principle of 'well, i'll take care of me and the rest of you can go to hell'.

Is there any reason do you think why you're kind of alone in that view?

and yes, i know how they make vaccines - there a range of childrens books even that take delight in sharing all the icky details about medicine.

Do you know where antibiotics come from? How doctors learned how the humn body works? It all makes for pretty grim reading, but that doesn't discount the benefits.

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Vaccines aren't bad, and saying "no it's okay you don't have to vaccinate if you don't want to" makes all vaccinations pointless. Vaccinations have more or less wiped out certain diseases where they have been used. What about the freedom of other people to not be willfully exposed to diseases?

Citizen, all vaccines aren't bad, just as all Republicans aren't. But there are some bad and/or useless ones out there. It's best to be informed about each and every one beforehand, that's all. We got our son properly vaccinated for the right diseases, at the time his immune system could handle the particular vaccine. It's another example of an issue that's not entirely black and white.

Breakin' it down for y'all Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:

Chris, thanks for your note on the vaccine industry. You've never been mean, no matter how wacko someone is on this board. That's an awesome human quality.

Oh, I've been mean at times. Hopefully they've been few, though.
Too bad there's no vaccine for ignorance, huh?
(Ooops! Mean slipping out

)

A shot of Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:

As for hepatitis in particular - there are several types, and i'm no expert, but i'm pretty sure they are contracted through bodily fluids. So say a mother contracts it through any one on of the possible ways - breastfeeding is going to become a really bad idea.

Which is kind of why I mentioned not present in the parents...

BTW, did YOU get your Klingon Slug Flu shot yet?
It's makin' it's way here any century now, they tell me...

Very bad man Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:36 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Safe, eh ?

Google: Thimerosal, subsearch: Autism.

Gee, when WAS the last case of Mumps around here, I wonder ?

And yes, CTS, being anything but a subservient little administration ball sucker will get you ridiculed, but just make sure there's a hefty component of fear involved.

I'd rather be regarded as a rabid, hostile, foaming at the mouth dangerous flake, than a pathetic, whiny, waiting victim for the new brownshirts - they don't mess with you so much if they think you may actually do harm unto them.

You're gonna get the "flake" rep regardless, so you might as well exploit it.

-Frem

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
you're entire post, where you set yourself up as such a noble misunderstood fighter, was based on the principle of 'well, i'll take care of me and the rest of you can go to hell'.

How does wanting the freedom to not vaccinate MY children, give birth to MY children at home, teach MY children at home send the rest of you to hell?

Vaccines are supposed to cause immunity so that WHEN EXPOSED to the disease, you don't catch it. (If you're never exposed, then vaccines are superfluous.)

If your children are vaccinated, and vaccines work, your kids are protected, period. No amount of exposure can hurt them. If vaccines work, the only people that need to be afraid of diseases are unvaccinated kids. So not vaccinating does not threaten the "rest of you."

The only people that not vaccinating may threaten are those who have medical contraindications for vaccination. Those are the people protected by "herd immunity." (The rest of the people are protected by the vaccines.)

Now I can go into detail about how exemptors do not threaten herd immunity and such, but that is a different thread. If someone wants to start that thread, I'll post. I don't want to hijack Rue's thread for that.

In summary, yes I want the freedom to take care of my own the way I see fit--it hurts no one, but people feel the need to ridicule it just the same. This, to me, is uncalled for.

As far as Libertarianism goes, that does impact society, but I have the right to fight for the political reforms I believe in same as everyone else. And as all's fair in politics, ridicule is part and parcel of the game. I don't mind putting up with it when it comes to my political beliefs.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session."
-- Judge Gideon J. Tucker, 1866.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Safe, eh ?

Google: Thimerosal, subsearch: Autism.

One of the possible pitfalls we avoided, thank goodness.
We also didn't bother circumsizing.
We're rebels like that.

Question the peeps with the money Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 5:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
If you were in a small minority - what would you publicly stand up for?

...and back on topic.

I see no reason why marriage, and the legal benefits that accrue, should be limited to just two people of any sex or sexual orientation.

Also. If any of my friends were determined to jump off a cliff, even after my entreaties to stop, I'd offer to hold their wallets and car keys.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I'd offer to hold their wallets and car keys.

That's cold, dude.
I mean, unless they got REALLY nice wheels....

Ain't jumpin' Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:17 AM

MRT

ever seen 'Last Supper' - brilliant film... well worth the watch.

Seryn, I suspect that you and I are the products of our British generation.... I agree on much of what you said, not quite all, but much.

What would I stand up for...? I reckon I would fight for the idea of common humanity. Ultimately we are all the same and all want pretty much the same end result for ourselves and everyone else. However, we all have different ideas of how to reach that 'goal'. Nobody knows who has the best plan, but we should all be happy to allow others to follow their own paths (so long as it isn't to other's detriment or hurt) and if you are the one who achieves, then have humility in that success.

Nomatter how much any individual succeeds it is meaningless if there is no-body to share it with, and the more you can share it with the greater the experience.

To quote Rudyard Kipling:

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:17 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

I agree with most of what canttakesky said, but there as some points that need a bit of fine tuning, I think. I was just telling a friend yesterday about how I'd make marijuana, gambling and prostitution legal just so that the government could rake in money on regulating it. Also, I think regulating them would lead to a greater ability to control them and the negative consequences that come with them. The money earned could also be put towards other programs I have in mind, including a total revamp of what they teach in schools.

[IMG]

Place my body on a ship and burn it on the sea,
Let my spirit rise, Valkyries carry me.
Take me to Valhalla where my brothers wait for me.
Fires burn into the sky, my spirit will never die.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
I see no reason why marriage, and the legal benefits that accrue, should be limited to just two people of any sex or sexual orientation.

There is another issue where the "freedom hurts community" fallacy gets played a lot. I have heard the argument that allowing gay marriage destroys the integrity of ALL marriages. How does the freedom to marry whomever one chooses hurt everyone else's marriage?

Perhaps I am too much of a flake to understand. But, on a brighter note, I am pleased to see I am not the only flaky anti-lemming on the board (thanks Frem and Chrismoorhead).

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority.
--E. B. White

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Friday, November 24, 2006 6:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There is another issue where the "freedom hurts community" fallacy gets played a lot. I have heard the argument that allowing gay marriage destroys the integrity of ALL marriages. How does the freedom to marry whomever one chooses hurt everyone else's marriage?

Why, if we allow those gays to marry, then they'll be...married...just like us....and they're NOT just like us, I mean, we eat, drink, and breathe....wait, that's not what I mean....I mean, if they marry, then we...uhhhhh...well it affects us in that.... er, uh....

I guess it doesn't affect us.

Okay. All settled.

RIGHT?!?!?!?!

Did I make my point Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:15 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
There is another issue where the "freedom hurts community" fallacy gets played a lot. I have heard the argument that allowing gay marriage destroys the integrity of ALL marriages. How does the freedom to marry whomever one chooses hurt everyone else's marriage?

Why, if we allow those gays to marry, then they'll be...married...just like us....and they're NOT just like us, I mean, we eat, drink, and breathe....wait, that's not what I mean....I mean, if they marry, then we...uhhhhh...well it affects us in that.... er, uh....

I guess it doesn't affect us.

Okay. All settled.

RIGHT?!?!?!?!

Did I make my point Chrisisall

But... if we let the gays marry, then pretty soon people will get to marry their pets...

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote - Vote Firefly!

(by xRiverTamx / Kelai)

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:29 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
If you were in a small minority - what would you publicly stand up for?

How much danger would I be in? I'm not sure I'd be in the middle of a blood-lusting lynch mob yelling "SET HIM FREE!"

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:47 AM

SignyM, you ARE a minority.
Get less informed, you'll be stupider, but happier.
At least, that's the plan.....

Joining the un-hooked-on-truth generation Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I was just telling a friend yesterday about how I'd make marijuana, gambling and prostitution legal just so that the government could rake in money on regulating it. Also, I think regulating them would lead to a greater ability to control them and the negative consequences that come with them. The money earned could also be put towards other programs I have in mind, including a total revamp of what they teach in schools.

....hmmmm....I don't know about gambling though....Too destructive for mainstream USA.....but the rest I would agree with.

A take Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 8:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:

As for hepatitis in particular - there are several types, and i'm no expert, but i'm pretty sure they are contracted through bodily fluids. So say a mother contracts it through any one on of the possible ways - breastfeeding is going to become a really bad idea.

Which is kind of why I mentioned not present in the parents...

which is why i mentioned 'so say the mother contracts it through any one of the possible ways...'

Quote:
BTW, did YOU get your Klingon Slug Flu shot yet?
It's makin' it's way here any century now, they tell me...

Do we have to get silly about this?

My point is that mumps, rubella, measles, pox - these are all dieases that are still present in many countries, all it takes is one unvaccinated person to go on holiday, bring it back, go to school or work, infect a few more unvaccinated kids, and voila - we have a minor epidemic on our hands.

Quote:
Safe, eh ?

Google: Thimerosal, subsearch: Autism.

So I googled....

Thimerosal is a highly effective preservative and anti-contaminant derived from mercury. It was once common in minute quantities in many medical and ophthalmic solutions, including vaccines and contact lens storage liquids. Yet vaccine manufacturers removed thimerosal from almost all children's vaccines at least five years ago. Thimerosal is still present in some flu vaccines, but thimerosal-free versions have been available for several years.
As recently as last month, the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry published a report by UK and Japanese researchers that disproved the thimerosal-autism connection in a study of 30,000 Japanese kids.
More to the point: If there were a link between thimerosal and autism, you would expect to see a sharp decrease in autism, since thimerosal has been absent from all childhood vaccines (except some flu vaccines) for five years now, On the contrary, the documented autism rate has continued to climb, proving there is no relationship between the two whatsoever.

Yet in a recent web search on "thimerosal autism," five of the first ten results link to alarmist informational sites bankrolled by law firms. Not to knock my fellow professionals, but this data point makes it easier to understand why there is still so much press on the alleged thimerosal-autism connection. The agenda of many of these sites is quite clear: to link vaccines to autism and to stimulate lawsuits by aggrieved parents. As for the media's ongoing interest in autism, sensationalism seems to be the primary motive.

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/03/revisiting-thimerosal-autism.ht
ml

Quote:
Gee, when WAS the last case of Mumps around here, I wonder ?

During 2004--2005, the United Kingdom (UK) experienced a nationwide epidemic of mumps, which peaked during 2005 when 56,390* notified cases were reported in England and Wales. The majority of confirmed cases during 2004--2005 were in persons aged 15--24 years, most of whom had not been eligible for routine mumps vaccination.

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5507a1.htm

And CTS - I never called you a flake, I said your concerns were self interested.

My point - badly made i'll conceed, is that should there be no tax, no government control, no this no that and you're all happy with your supposed freedom, there's no healthcare, no police force no prison service, no welfare, no support of any kind for those people who for what ever reason - the disbled, the elderly.

So in your system, if you can't earn money yourself, and have no one to earn it for you, you're screwed. Also consider the amount of jobs generated by government administration and the above services.

The system is hopelessly flawed yes (though the optimist in me keeps thinking that with oy this prevailing MY,MY,MY attitude we could get it sorted much faster), and admitedly, even with a government a lot of people are living in conditions way below even the standards expected by most Klingon slugs. But it could be ten thousand times worse.

Thus my suggestion that you go live out in the woods - you can have your freedom there and leave the rest of us to work towards bettering the deal for everybody.

Right, drawing the line, i'm not going to say anymore - its pulling the converstaion way off topic and that really isn't fair.

My own big cause is actually now a very large and widespread cause - Fair Trade - yes, so its even got that most lemming like of tricks - celebrity endorsement, but its a cause i believe in whole heartedly. And its rewarding everyones faith in that its doing what it set out to do - its using the estalbished system and setting up and effective sustainable sytem of trade that benefits everybody involved and not just the fat cats. It dignified and hands control to the people who have previously been at best ignored and abused, and improving their lives and the lives of their children in real, permenant sustainable ways - i.e. education, health and opportunitys, and it doesn't cost the buyer anything other than a few extra pence on top of what they would already spend on a product - which, more often than not, is a superior product anyway.

I mean, there are other ones - the mandatory removal of safety lables from electrical appliances, incentivised semi-permenant contraception for teens...

but then i'd start to sound all crazy.

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Friday, November 24, 2006 8:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:

which is why i mentioned 'so say the mother contracts it through any one of the possible ways...'

Hep comes from a few predictable ways; possibly compromising an infant's immune system to safeguard against it when most likely safe is an unwarranted risk IMO.

And yes, I must get silly when I see uneducated (not a slam) reactions to imaginary threats posted.

We EVOLVED (if you buy that sort of thing) being able to deal with what we had to; the developement of vaccines surely helped, but relying on them to fix all ills is a fallacy. A strength can become a weakness all too easily. Just look at anti-biotics.

Chrisisall, PhDuh

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Friday, November 24, 2006 8:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
I agree with most of what canttakesky said, but there as some points that need a bit of fine tuning, I think. I was just telling a friend yesterday about how I'd make marijuana, gambling and prostitution legal just so that the government could rake in money on regulating it. Also, I think regulating them would lead to a greater ability to control them and the negative consequences that come with them. The money earned could also be put towards other programs I have in mind, including a total revamp of what they teach in schools.

I actually agree with some of that - i would whole heartedly support the legalisation and government regulation of prostitution and lower class drugs - mainly because it would give the workers on one hand and the addicts on the other a support network, rights and choices and also rip the legs out from under the pimps traffickers and dealers - who are the real villains of the peice.

I'm not sure i'd want it to be a profit making enterprise - but its naive to think that it wouldn't end up that way, and to openly channel the proceeds into education from the outset would benefit everyone (and, we can but hope, slow the government corruption).

And as for same sex marriages - i'm also absolutely for gay couples sharing the same legal status as married heterosexuals.

i have my own private quibbles about the terminology, but i already know that they're just a personal issue, so i won't bother airing them her, but yes - i don't think any reasonable person would stand in the way of one couple wanting the same rights as any other couple.

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:

which is why i mentioned 'so say the mother contracts it through any one of the possible ways...'

Hep comes from a few predictable ways; possibly compromising an infant's immune system to safeguard against it when most likely safe is an unwarranted risk IMO.

And yes, I must get silly when I see uneducated (not a slam) reactions to imaginary threats posted.

We EVOLVED (if you buy that sort of thing) being able to deal with what we had to; the developement of vaccines surely helped, but relying on them to fix all ills is a fallacy. A strength can become a weakness all too easily. Just look at anti-biotics.

Chrisisall, PhDuh

yes - I know I said I wouldn't discuss it any more, but i had to answer that - i admitted from the very start that my sum total knowledge of Hepatitis is that it came i strains A to whatever and was contracted through bodily fluids - blood etc - and that that may be wrong, yup yup yup - i may be wrong - the example i gave was based on that scant knowledge, (i google since - yey, what an education google is! - some strains can be caught through food and water (which was the one that mentioned the vaccine), others through blood, (including touching wounds - the scenario i was imagining), sexual contact and in utero.

The point of the argument was that there were many ways for people and by extention their children to come into contact with nasty things. And to not immunist or insure against an entrirly preventable disease just because 'it might not happen' is plain ridiculous.

ok - i'll conceed - if there was a real risk to health at the point of immunisation (and not baseless sensationalisation whipped up by the media) then it would sometimes be a good idea not to immunise, but so far the deaths and ilnesses that can be attributed to the vaccines themselves are vastly outnumbered by the illnesses and deaths that result form the diseases - i'm sticking with my original view.

ok, thats it, i'm really not going to waffle on it more! promise!

Isn't sanity really a one trick pony, anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking! But when you're good and crazy...ooh hoo hoo hoo... the skys the limit!
http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:

The point of the argument was that there were many ways for people and by extention their children to come into contact with nasty things. And to not immunist or insure against an entrirly preventable disease just because 'it might not happen' is plain ridiculous.

Agreed.
Quote:

ok - i'll conceed - if there was a real risk to health at the point of immunisation (and not baseless sensationalisation whipped up by the media) then it would sometimes be a good idea not to immunise, but so far the deaths and ilnesses that can be attributed to the vaccines themselves are vastly outnumbered by the illnesses and deaths that result form the diseases - i'm sticking with my original view.

Again, agreed with, it's just that every immunization must be weighed.
As with most Browncoats, we agree more than we dis.
Cool

Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:27 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Top down,

CTS,

My dear, I have to say if you are railing against scientifically established principles (vaccination, global warming) then you DO have issues. You might as well be arguing against gravity.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Top down,

CTS,

My dear, I have to say if you are railing against scientifically established principles (vaccination, global warming) then you DO have issues. You might as well be arguing against gravity.

Rue, vaccination and Global Warming are AU's apart in the scheme of things, don't you think? GW (not the idiot) is one coherent phenominon, whereas vaccination has so many variables including genetics, exposure, body chemistry, etc. More an educated guess and a roll of the dice, eh?

Spin Doc for choice Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 10:00 AM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

It looks like the whole vaccination topic really caught on.

"If your children are vaccinated, and vaccines work, your kids are protected, period. No amount of exposure can hurt them."

This is a misunderstanding. No vaccination is 100% effective. For example, in the elderly, the flu vaccine can be effective in as few as 66%. That makes mass vaccination the best method to prevent epidemics. And it is true that unvaccinated children CAN hurt vaccinated children.

Originally vaccination was done to prevent feared epidemics - like polio and measles, or feared diseases like rabies and tetanus. But as the science of epidemiology grew, scientists realized that there were silent epidemics, and society carried cost burdens of diseases ammenable to vaccination - like hepatitis and HPV. 1 in 4 people have herpes (HSV 2). It doesn't often cause serious problems, but when it does it results severely retarded newborns (1 in 1,000), or adults with encephalitis 'brain wipe'. Similarly nearly all people have at least one strain of HPV, certain strains of which cause cervical cancer.

Whether you agree with a policy that these 'silent epidemics' should be addressed, it is certain that vaccination can address them.

(I actually wrote a science fiction story about a dystopia where the ONLY medical benefit people had a 'right' to from the US government was vaccination. Contracted out to a private company of course that made billions.)

HI ChrisIsAll - I guess we were both typing away at them same time. I think people really need to push for better vaccines. For example, the acellular pertusis vaccine was on the market for YEARS but not widely available becasue it was more expensive. However, the acellular form has never been associated with neurological side effects. I could see THAT vaccine as mandatory.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"If your children are vaccinated, and vaccines work, your kids are protected, period. No amount of exposure can hurt them."

This is a misunderstanding. No vaccination is 100% effective. For example, in the elderly, the flu vaccine can be effective in as few as 66%.

Where is the misunderstanding? Take the 66% effectiveness rate. That doesn't mean it is 66% effective in ONE person. It means out of 100 people vaccinated, the vaccine will work in 66 of those people, and not in the other 34 people. The 66 people ARE protected against exposure, and the other 34 got scammed (taking all the risk for no benefit at all).

So my statement again is: IF vaccines work, vaccinated kids are protected and no amount of exposure can hurt them. For the people who got vaccinated but scammed, well, that is the fault of the manufacturer, not the unvaccinated.

The debate comes in the belief that the 34 scammed folks can still benefit from herd immunity, or reduced risk of exposure. Now there is debate on how exactly herd immunity works and if it works at all. But even assuming it works, we have to weigh whether the small amount of reduction in risk to protect scammed consumers is worth curbing the individual right to informed consent in medical treatments.

And as for having issues, we've been through this before. You know we have different standards for evaluating what is "scientifically established." The literature on global warming and vaccination effectiveness and safety meet your standards (and those of most experts) and not mine (and those of a minority of experts). Should we anti-lemmings allowed to judge the evidence for ourselves and disagree? That is the question.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
The strongest principle of growth lies in human choice.
--George Eliot (1819 - 1880)

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:
My point - badly made i'll conceed, is that should there be no tax, no government control, no this no that and you're all happy with your supposed freedom, there's no healthcare, no police force no prison service, no welfare, no support of any kind for those people who for what ever reason - the disbled, the elderly.

No government regulation doesn't mean no government all. Libertarianism wants to decrease the size of government to the original functions outlined in the constitution. Police, prison, courts, and the military remain core functions of the government. No income tax does not mean no tax at all--there will still be excise and sales taxes. The government would just go on a diet and lose some very unhealthy weight.

And no government doesn't mean there will be no welfare. Private welfare will always be there. Sure, life is a lot tougher without that security net. But the security net costs us much more than money--it is costing us the dignity and self-reliance of entire generations. I would like to see the government reformed to allow more empowering solutions. It doesn't mean I want to see poor and disabled people strung out to dry. I've been disabled and unable to work for years, and I could return to that state again. I am keenly aware of how scary that is.

BTW, one of my majors was social work. I worked for years with the poorest of the poor. It is because of this experience that I arrived at my position today. I can see where you would automatically assume wanting a small government is self-interested. We just see different solutions to the same problems that concern us all.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable.
--John Kenneth Galbraith (1908 - 2006)

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:19 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

"that is the fault of the manufacturer"

Vaccines often fail b/c of the biological state of the vaccinated, not b/c of mfg problems. Researchers do spend a lot of time trying to make vaccines more effective - trying to find the right mix of DNA/ RNA/ proteins to lure even old, tired and inexperienced immune systems to take them up and process them effectively.

Herd immunity does work. As a real-life example, I used to live in an area where wildlife rabies was epidemic. I remember massive yearly public education programs aimed at children - do not approach an animal you don't know, or a wild animal that seems friendly, or an animal that seems sick. It was a big deal. And they always ran ads saying it was important for ALL domesticated animals to be vaccinated, to prevent the spread from animal to animal to human. Plus there were monthly free vaccination clinics. The rabies vaccine (at the time) was only 90% effective. But by insuring near-universal coverage, there were no cases of domesticated animals spreading rabies.

As to global warming, you should see "An Inconvenient Truth". I forget the exact numbers but out of over 600 peer-reviewed studies, NOT ONE questioned the existence or cause of global warming. OTOH, in popular literature 50% did. I simply base my opinion on the REAL experts, not on pseudo-scientists.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Vaccines often fail b/c of the biological state of the vaccinated,

That may be true, and I will concede that the product may not be to blame for all vaccine failures. However, compensating for these people's resistance to immunization is still not the responsibility of the unvaccinated.

Quote:
Herd immunity does work...But by insuring near-universal coverage, there were no cases of domesticated animals spreading rabies.

You had near universal coverage, which means a tiny percentage of pets were not vaccinated. Did it threaten the 10% of pets expected to experience vaccine failures? According to this example, the unvaccinated posed no public threat at all.

Moreover, here is an example of something meeting your standards for proof and not mine. I can say, "I lived where wildlife bubonic plague was epidemic. Because of near universal carrot-eating, no domesticated animals got the plague." Maybe they didn't get the plague because of other factors, and not because of the carrot-eating? Maybe vectors for transmission were blocked? You get the drift. A field case like this is evidence to consider, definitely. But it needs to be considered in context of other cases, including outbreaks in fully vaccinated populations. Alone, it is not conclusive.

Quote:
I forget the exact numbers but out of over 600 peer-reviewed studies, NOT ONE questioned the existence or cause of global warming.

You can have 6000 peer reviewed studies. Quantity, to me, is immaterial. It is the quality of any number of studies that matters. I have not seen any quality in either vaccine or climate change research.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.
-Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

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Friday, November 24, 2006 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I think people really need to push for better vaccines.

How about that experimental Hep B vaccine that got tested in Africa some years back...genetically spliced with Bovine retro- got Aids up and running.
SHHHhhhhhh!
Forget I mentioned it

.

Ooops, dropped my tinfoil hat there....

Just kidding, Aids is entirely natural

Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 2:11 PM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
people (ahem) have accused me of being pathologically antiestablishment or being a wacko conspiracy theorist or whatever.

i say keep on keepin' on

Quote:
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." Mark Twain

Quote:
Libertarianism and individual sovereignty. End all income tax, all govt regulation, all foreign aid and interference, etc.

i completely agree.. the irony is thats what the constitution says. i guess some people still havent come to realize that theyve accepted, or been sold a lie backed by the monetary system itself, which was engineered to concentrate the wealth of the world into the hands of a few and to enslave the rest of us

Quote:
Vaccine choice and exemptions from mandatory vaccinations. Let people decide if they want to vaccinate their kids without negative consequences.

im with you on that... i wouldnt tell anyone its healthy or natural to inject dormant viruses and mercury into your blood stream, to allegedly ward off an alleged 'risk'.. because the establishment says so; frankly ill take my chances. i have unalienable rights as a sovereign being(something we're supposed to forget), and this is an encroachment. God made us fine the way we are, we do not need enhancements, and no entity has the authority to force the rest of us to be subjected to them. i genuinely believe that the alterior motive of vaccines is to suppress peoples immune systems and to facilitate in the sterilization and eradication of the lower and middle classes

Quote:
The real 9/11 story. Conduct a credible investigation on what happened around and on 9/11.

this is like numero uno for me aswell. (without getting into the details of government complicity) if we dont expose the liars and murderes in power now, the next terror attack will just completely white wash 9/11, and all of our efforts to expose the truth, which has been hidden behind the official lies of alqaeda Iraq and the war on terror.. will have been too little too late

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:17 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
im with you on that... i wouldnt tell anyone its healthy or natural to inject dormant viruses and mercury into your blood stream, to allegedly ward off an alleged 'risk'.. because the establishment says so;

My grandfather had a medical book from the turn of the last century, which I used to enjoy perusing when I was at their house and priviledged enough to be allowed to look into. It was an immense (table-sized) volume with dozens of color-plated photo pages (probably hand-colored), and was (even at that time) already over 60 years old.

Now, I can't speak as to the accuracy of the information contained within that book (written around the 1890's), but it wasn't the text which fascinated (and often scared) me as a child. It was the multitude of graphic, quite grotesque pictures of children afflicted with smallpox, polio, etc.

Thankfully, having seen those pictures (particularly of the children with smallpox -- which was epidemic prior to the vaccine -- and which killed many of my grandparents' siblings as children), I'm glad that my parents had both my sister and I vaccinated.

I haven't the expertise to speak about how well the vaccines work, but I know that disease was eradicated because of it. And, I can say with near absolute certainty that my great grandparents would've given an arm and a leg to have had access to it when their children were dying in troves (all of my grandparents lost siblings to childhood diseases, and my one great grandmother lost 7 of her 14 children in infancy to such childhood diseases).

I don't know if the vaccines were mandated when first discovered, but I imagine they didn't have to be. I'm sure everyone who'd experienced the disease firsthand (as nearly everyone alive at that time would have) was rushing to acquire it.

Whether or not it should be required by law, I can't say. I haven't studied either the medical or the legal aspects of it. I can only say that a lot of lives were spared because of such vaccines -- and I, for one, am glad they were discovered and utilized.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:27 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by seryn:

which is why i mentioned 'so say the mother contracts it through any one of the possible ways...'

Hep comes from a few predictable ways; possibly compromising an infant's immune system to safeguard against it when most likely safe is an unwarranted risk IMO.

And yes, I must get silly when I see uneducated (not a slam) reactions to imaginary threats posted.

We EVOLVED (if you buy that sort of thing) being able to deal with what we had to; the developement of vaccines surely helped, but relying on them to fix all ills is a fallacy. A strength can become a weakness all too easily. Just look at anti-biotics.

Chrisisall, PhDuh

without prophylactic antibiotics - I would be dead. Antibiotics is my friend

(and I have to go with the "better the few bad reactions to vaccines then the hundreds/thousands dead without them. "Better living through pharmacueticals" is my motto
FutureMrsIlovesSerynandChrisisallcausetheyssmartFillion

----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:27 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

The problem with vaccine 'failure' is that it takes out your argument - that the unvaccinated pose no threat to the vaccinated. But they do, by dropping the vacination rate below the level needed for 'herd immunity'.

"tiny percentage of pets" Just to point out when referring to 'domesticated animals' I was also meant dairy cows, horses, goats etc - common farm animals. Cows for example do get rabies - they charge and try to bite. There is some level needed for herd immunity - 90% is about right for rabies protection. Near universal vaccination with expected failure rates did lead to effective protection.

"I lived where wildlife bubonic plague was epidemic." Not epidemic - bubonic plague was/ is never epidemic anywhere in the US. It is endemic. There is a difference.

I simply pulled up that story b/c I hoped it would mean somehing to you. The rabies threat was always present and widely taught year after year. It was probably my first exposure to public health measures.

But there are other places where rabies has raged out of control in wild animals. In the mid-1990's there was a plague of rabid coyotes spreading rabies up from Mexico and threatening large areas of the US south-west. In another instance a rabid raccoon was transported from Florida to Virginia, starting a spread of raccoon rabies that reached up through the eastern seaboard and west through n/e Ohio. In both cases, oral rabies vaccines (baited vaccine) have been used to contain and drive back the outbreaks. Large-scale vaccination does work.

"I have not seen any quality in either vaccine or climate change research." Meh, what can I say. If international peer-reviewed research isn't good enough for you then you do have issues.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:31 PM

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hey ChrisIsAll,

Could you provide a link for that? Reason being I was one of the orginal guinea-pigs for the Hep-B vaccine in clinical trials (back in the 1980's).

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I think people really need to push for better vaccines.
How about that experimental Hep B vaccine that got tested in Africa some years back...genetically spliced with Bovine retro- got Aids up and running.
SHHHhhhhhh!
Forget I mentioned it.

Ooops, dropped my tinfoil hat there....

Just kidding, Aids is entirely natural Chrisisall

And I don't have AIDS yet !

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:

without prophylactic antibiotics - I would be dead. Antibiotics is my friend

Then they are certainly mine as well, if they let us keep you here!

FutureMrsFillionfanChrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:40 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:

without prophylactic antibiotics - I would be dead. Antibiotics is my friend

Then they are certainly mine as well, if they let us keep you here!

FutureMrsFillionfanChrisisall

FMF-Proud member of the mutual admiration society

----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

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Friday, November 24, 2006 3:45 PM