I have a bone to pick about Firefly by Lunatique

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I have a bone to pick about Firefly

POSTED BY: LUNATIQUE
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 5, 2005 16:56
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Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:21 PM

First of all, I am a huge Joss Whedon fan. I'm a creator/writer myself, and I think Joss is one of the most talented guys working in entertainment.

My bone is this:

Although Firefly is absolutely my favorite from Joss, there's always something that bugged me about it.

Firefly is a universe where everyone speaks Chinese, regardless of their race/cultural background, and Asian culture has completely merged with their contemporary society. So why is it that none of the main/supporting characters are Chinese or straight Asian? Sure, some are supposed to kinda-look Asian-ish, but not enough so to actually be one.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:31 PM

REGINAROADIE

Well, if I remember correctly, the borderpeople Mal and Wash do the trade with in WAR STORIES look very much like Mongolians (a group from Asia). And seeing as how they were only 14 eps made, the show was probably in that transitional phase from what the show started out to what the show became during the long run. So that problem you had probably would've corrected itself.

I dunno. It's not a big problem for me. Since this is more of a sci-fi WESTERN as opposed to something purely Chinese, I'd be more concerned if they got the western (as a genre) aspect of it right as opposed to the Anglo/Chinese angle.

Besides, would you want any of the crew to be replaced by a clone of Ensign Kim?

"NO HAI ES BANDAI. THERE IS....NO.....BAND. AND YET....WE HEAR A BAND."

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 7:55 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Good point. Guess even a gem like Firefly can have a hole.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:24 PM

SLOWSMURF

Personally I'd assume he wrote it primarily ignoring race and cast whoever he found.

Most of the characters would work as any race.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:21 PM

TLACOOK

Joss was asked this question at Wonder Con (or maybe it was Wizard world. I go to too many cons.).

He said that all roles were open to all races and he just took the best actors. I can't in a million years think that Joss (who renamed himself with a Chinese word) would have purposefully limited his creations to certain races. He simply did no gratuitous casting.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:40 PM

LUNATIQUE

Good points.

I didn't know he renamed himself. What's that all about?

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 10:52 PM

TLACOOK

His given name was not Joss (which means Luck in Chinese). Others probably know the details better than I.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 11:02 PM

LUNATIQUE

I'm 100% percent fluent in Mandarin, and my wife is in Cantonese. Joss sounds nothing like "luck" in both dialects--unless he used some other dialect--which is extremely unlikely because he barely understands the difference and significance between Cantonese and Mandarin based on his past interviews.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 11:03 PM

WHOISRIVER

I'm not 110% sure, but I believe there's a few Asian folk visible in Serenity (the upcoming Firefly movie) -- particularly in a bar sequence on a border planet.

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Thursday, March 31, 2005 11:56 PM

ZOOT

Oddly enough that's something that has been bugging me as well, Lunatique . . .

Would also expect there to be more mixed races due to general melting-potness (If I can coin words randomly) . . .

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 2:48 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

One theory that I have read is that most of the people of Chinese ancestry are among the more affluent in the 'verse, and thus would live on the core planets, only one of which (Ariel) the crew visited during the short run of the series.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 3:11 AM

ZOOT

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
One theory that I have read is that most of the people of Chinese ancestry are among the more affluent in the 'verse, and thus would live on the core planets, only one of which (Ariel) the crew visited during the short run of the series.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

OH OK - that sounds fairly reasonable . . .

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 3:41 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Lunatique:
So why is it that none of the main/supporting characters are Chinese or straight Asian?

I always thought it was because the show was cancelled too quick.
I thought that maybe he was establishing the Western look of the show at the beginning out on 'the rim',
but as you got closer to civilization there would be more clearly Asian people
(altho as they say, there were clearly mixed race people in many of the places they have visited).
We'll have to see how he handles it in 'Serenity' because we know he has made that completely without having his script ripped in half.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 4:20 AM

PO1S

Quote:
I'm 100% percent fluent in Mandarin, and my wife is in Cantonese. Joss sounds nothing like "luck" in both dialects--unless he used some other dialect--which is extremely unlikely because he barely understands the difference and significance between Cantonese and Mandarin based on his past interviews.

He probably got it from joss paper and joss sticks--like you say, he's not exactly fluent in any Chinese dialect. His given name was Josh(ua, presumably).

--po1s

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Friday, April 1, 2005 5:09 AM

BEATLE

Since China and America were the two superpowers to have carried on after earth (notice the alliance flag)these are the two most common languages.
There was a time when French was the most spoken language but that didn't mean most people were French.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 5:31 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

The beauty of Firefly is that in a dozen or so episodes it has managed to create a back story and a mythology as strong or stronger then most science fiction shows can developed after seasons of airtime. That is some imaginative work. If I didn’t know better, I’d think we were talking about a show that had run for years.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 5:38 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by po1s:
His given name was Josh(ua, presumably).

--po1s

I don't think that that is true.
I believe 'Joss' is his given name

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Friday, April 1, 2005 6:23 AM

PO1S

Man, you made me do research!

OK, we're both wrong. According to "Joss Whedon: the Genius Behind Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (the relevant passage is excerpted on Amazon) he was born JOE Whedon.

--po1s

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Friday, April 1, 2005 6:25 AM

EMBERS

thanks for doing the research!
I had actually double checked all his online autobiographies
(as well as his Father's and Grandfather's)
and they all said Joss
so it is interesting to know that he was born 'Joe'

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Friday, April 1, 2005 6:36 AM

SIMONWHO

I've always felt that the influx of Chinese into English was a bit of a failed conceit. For one thing, when you hit your finger with a hammer, you want something short and pithy to describe the situation like s**t, f**k, c**p, b*ll***s or somesuch. You do not want to say G*** r**** p**** m**** f** l*** h****-g****. But then again, maybe I'm spoiled because we actually have real swear words on British TV.

Oh, and the conceit that America would remain a superpower 500 years in the future and Europe would virtually disappear? Didn't buy that one either.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 6:49 AM

EMBERS

oh I didn't take it that Europe had virtually disappeared,
only that the European (Romance & Germanic)languages disappeared (500 years is a long time)

AND I didn't assume that the USA was the big winner,
I thought it was the whole British/Australian/US
combo bringing English into the universal language level
(it already is pretty ubiquitous online)

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Friday, April 1, 2005 7:53 AM

DEANNAMAY

My impression with the lack of Asian people in the cast was mentioned above. Note people of afluence have an Asian sounding last name (Tam vs. Reynolds-obviously European). I believed the Asians were more in the core planets, which they avoided. Again, the show didn't last that long to bring in that many recurring characters.

I also don't believe is was a conscious thing, just the way it turned out. We wouldn't want him casting someone just because they were Asian so they could fit someones pigeon hole, just because it was appropriate for this particular character to be played by an Asian actor that fit the part. In his interviews it was mentioned how many people they had to screen to find this great cast. He not only has to find great actors, but those who work fantastic together. I think we all can agree that he succeeded in that.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 10:09 AM

GRRARRG

Quote:
Originally posted by po1s:
Man, you made me do research!

OK, we're both wrong. According to "Joss Whedon: the Genius Behind Buffy the Vampire Slayer" (the relevant passage is excerpted on Amazon) he was born JOE Whedon.

--po1s

As in "Joseph" . . . I always figured he wanted a unigue shortining of his name, and thought "Jos" with a short 'o' sounded better than "Jos" with a long 'o'. Spelling it as he does makes his preferred pronounciation clear.

I mock you with my monkey pants

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Friday, April 1, 2005 10:30 AM

AERRIN

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
oh I didn't take it that Europe had virtually disappeared,
only that the European (Romance & Germanic)languages disappeared (500 years is a long time)

AND I didn't assume that the USA was the big winner,
I thought it was the whole British/Australian/US
combo bringing English into the universal language level
(it already is pretty ubiquitous online)

Actually, I don't think Firefly even postulates this. Just because we hear everyone speaking only English doesn't mean other languages haven't survived. I'd think it pretty strange, actually, if they'd /all/ died out. I imagine there are some collections of people who speak other languages (although probably in /addition/ to English and Chinese).

After all, we have Niska with a very distinct accent. Of the type you have when you generally learned a language other than English first.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 3:39 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Some of the Fanfics take this on. For instance, Channain's Heartbroken has a lot of Cajun and French.

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Friday, April 1, 2005 4:54 PM

FFYING2

Quote:
Originally posted by Lunatique:
I'm 100% percent fluent in Mandarin, and my wife is in Cantonese. Joss sounds nothing like "luck" in both dialects--unless he used some other dialect--which is extremely unlikely because he barely understands the difference and significance between Cantonese and Mandarin based on his past interviews.

I did a little research on this topic for an essay about a certain sci fi series.

Joss (originally an idol of a Chinese god) is an English pidgin word used in China. It seems to have been brought to Chinese seaports from Java around the 18th century, where Dutch (joosje/joos) and English (joss) picked it up from Javanese (dejos/deyos)--which perhaps came from Portuguese deus ("god") or the obsolete form deos (Oxford English Dictionary; The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology).

A joss house is a shrine for the joss, and joss sticks (incense) and joss paper are what you burn at worship. From these meanings, "good/bad joss" came to mean "good/bad luck" in early 20th century English slang (OED).
---------

As for Asians in the 'verse in general, I'm in the "we didn't see enough of the story to judge" camp. But the fact that not one of a mere nine people is Asian doesn't seem significant.

Ying

Firefly Funsite http://fireflyfunsite.home.att.net
Firefly Chinese Pinyinary http://fireflychinese.home.att.net

Browncoats.com http://www.browncoats.com

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Friday, April 1, 2005 7:53 PM

ELWOODMOM

Someone asked him that question in San Francisco. I can't remember his exact response, but the main idea is that he auditioned many people, but didn't want to limit himself to one race. He basically wanted to hire the best he could find, regardless the race. I hope this helps!

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Friday, April 1, 2005 8:05 PM

SHINY

Check out the newly released "finding Serenity" compilation, edited by Jane Espenson. There's a great critical essay on this very topic.

P.S. When I asked Joss about this at WonderCon SF, he was somewhat evasive, and just said that while they did read/audition some asian actors, they didn't make it a point to ear-mark any particular roles for asians.

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

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Saturday, April 2, 2005 12:59 AM

INTHEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by ffying2:
I did a little research on this topic for an essay about a certain sci fi series.

Joss (originally an idol of a Chinese god) is an English pidgin word used in China. It seems to have been brought to Chinese seaports from Java around the 18th century, where Dutch (joosje/joos) and English (joss) picked it up from Javanese (dejos/deyos)--which perhaps came from Portuguese deus ("god") or the obsolete form deos (Oxford English Dictionary; The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology).

So let me get this straight... Joss really is God?

Shiniest gorramn show in the 'verse!

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Tuesday, April 5, 2005 4:56 PM

FFYING2

Quote:
Originally posted by InTheBlack:
So let me get this straight... Joss really is God?

That's a personal question between you and your Joss.

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