The Pregnant Pause and other Whedon Trademarks by manwithpez

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Pregnant Pause and other Whedon Trademarks

POSTED BY: MANWITHPEZ
UPDATED: Saturday, March 17, 2007 13:54
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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:00 AM

Important people don't do field work.

Everyone on this site is probably more than familiar with Joss Whedon's style of writing. It has its own quirks and is even referred to in Hollywood as a standard to strive for in some instances. But, what is it that makes it so great? What are the individual trademarks of a Joss Whedon presentation?

A few of my favorites...the pregnant pause...if you look down at my signature, these very few lines took what seemed like a lifetime to deliver...and I loved it. I don't know if its written into the script, but it seems like it occurs in all his shows. Another is the bombdrop on any kind of real happy. If you're a character in a Whedon show, and it looks like things are going you're way (and I mean really, really going your way...like, perfect happiness) then you better watch out. Angel, Buffy, Wesley (especially Wesley, after waiting 3 years for Fred, he finally got her, and what happened...SEE!)Willow, Mal, Simon (Who finally gets his sister back, but has to pay his personal freedom, and what he got back was not what had left his home.) Giles (Finally gets Jenny Calendar and BAM!!! Angelus!)

And, finally, I love the humor injected into what should be a dramatic scene. A perfect example is that lovely scene between River and Simon where she's trying to explain that she really is putting forth the effort to feel like a girl again, and ends this diatribe by telling Simon she threw up on his bed. HA! Or in the Buffy episode "Checkpoint" where Buffy gives a longwinded speech about what being a Slayer really is and demands that the Watcher's Council tell her what Glory is. The answer is given, and her reply is not given until the credits start to roll. It kinda shouldn't have been funny, but it sure was.

Anbody know anymore?

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:20 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Wow! Talk about opening the floodgates... this is a great question and one that demands much time to think about...

Then again:

One of my favourites is from the second season of Buffy - where Principal Shnieder and Giles are walking along the outside of the school and Schnieder is lamenting the 'sorry state of teenagers today' and how 'they're all just hormoned up timebombs waiting to go off!', and then there's a lovely cut away of Giles seeing Miss Calendar and becoming utterly speechless around her, while Schnieder contimues his rant about inability of Teens to think of anything other than sex....

Unfortunately I can't remember all the dialogue but this is where Joss' strenghts are, in taking a bland randomless rant and making it so beautifully poignant that we can all relate to the situation taking place and sympathise whole heartedly with the characters.

Man there are so many I'll have to come back to this.

Nice question though - Ohh just remembered Spikes Speech about love (2nd Season) and how violent it is once it's in you. Always loved that will look it up tonight.

One more Joss-ism is, the evil or bad characters being the tool for telling the 'Truth' when you really don't want to hear it.... Followed by the obligatory gaze down to the ground.

Cheers
The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:26 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I think another is having a character that's presented with a problem early in the episode come up with the answer quickly, and then dismiss it. Giles did this in "Once More With Feeling" and, to a certain extent, Mal did it in "Out of Gas"

It doesn't always work so good, but when it does, its truly funny!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:34 AM

STARPILOTGRAINGER

I like the 'undercutting the evil villain' idea... used to great effect at least twice in Firefly, first where Dobbs was shot right with barely a word-afterwards right in the middle of being threatening, and in The Train Job with the whole "This is all the money Niska gave us in advance." scene. Also used in Buffy numerous times (in Anne, where the big villain was standing too close to an edge and was killed by the guest star with just a little push, in the middle of his big speech, and when Spike was captured by the Initiative in the middle of his 'the big bad is back' speech).

Also, there's the 'hot-but-shy-seeming redhead comes onto the main male character in a situation it'd be wrong for him to accept', which is used at least once in Buffy, Angel, and Firefly! ;) (Okay, Joss only wrote one of the episodes involved, directed but didn't write another, and did neither for the other but it was before he had other shows so was probably tangentially involved).

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6 (real)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/alternaljournal (fictional, travelling through another world)
Unreachable Star: http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:43 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

All the writers who have given interviews have said that while the idea for an episode is theirs, and mostly, that idea gets through, its Joss in the details. He had his hand in virtually every episode produced under his name.

And, can I say that I love that certain bad guys get away to come back later...I'm sure Jubal Early would have been back, but The First in Buffy, as well as Sweet in "Once More With Feeling", Niska and Saffron, Skip on Angel.

Also, I like the idea of the evil within. Its in every group presented on a Joss Whedon show. Jayne and River in Firefly, Willow in Buffy, Wesley, Angel, Cordelia, Gunn...hell, everyone on Angel did something cataclysmically wrong at some point. While Jayne and River aren't strictly evil, neither was Gunn (or Wes) and his actions led to Fred's death. (Which, by the way, I think they came down on him way too hard for.)

The idea of evil as ambiguity challenges your idea of what evil really is, and is a hallmark of every Joss Whedon show!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:44 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
(Okay, Joss only wrote one of the episodes involved, directed but didn't write another, and did neither for the other but it was before he had other shows so was probably tangentially involved).

When you listen to the commentaries,
or hear the writers talk at conventions,
and they all say that when they get complicated on a particular joke in one of their episodes,
it is invariably one that Joss inserted into their script.
So I think Joss was always pretty 'hands on' even when he was involved in all three shows at once.
He just isn't enough of an egotist to insist on writting credit every time he contributes to a script.

Anyway, I also love the under-cutting thing.
Like in 'War Stories' when Nitska is going to make Zoe choose between her Captain and her husband...and she interupts him saying:
"This one [points at Wash], oh, you were going to make me choose, right?"

and I adore the mini-cliff-hangers as we go to commercial break.
And the joking scene transitions; like in 'Pangs'
Buffy is saying that home is where they have to take you in,
and we cut to poor chipped Spike huddled in a blanket,
like the Little Match Girl (so so funny).

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:51 AM

STARPILOTGRAINGER

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
(Okay, Joss only wrote one of the episodes involved, directed but didn't write another, and did neither for the other but it was before he had other shows so was probably tangentially involved).

When you listen to the commentaries,
or hear the writers talk at conventions,
and they all say that when they get complicated on a particular joke in one of their episodes,
it is invariably one that Joss inserted into their script.
So I think Joss was always pretty 'hands on' even when he was involved in all three shows at once.
He just isn't enough of an egotist to insist on writting credit every time he contributes to a script.

Yeah, I just think in that particular case it could have been a coincidence and written into all three more or less separately by the different writers, since they all flowed pretty naturally from (or in some cases were integral to) the plot, rather than a Whedon trademark. I just noticed that each show had one of those when watching a rerun of Untouched the other day.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6 (real)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/alternaljournal (fictional, travelling through another world)
Unreachable Star: http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:52 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
All the writers who have given interviews have said that while the idea for an episode is theirs, and mostly, that idea gets through, its Joss in the details. He had his hand in virtually every episode produced under his name.

I see you were writing pretty much the same point as me (above)...I'm just too slow w/my posting.
sorry about that.

Quote:

Gunn and his actions led to Fred's death. (Which, by the way, I think they came down on him way too hard for.)

well Wesley's stabbing him was kind of the insane Wesley...
but actually I thought it was right to blame Gunn,
he knew there was something very wrong with what he was signing,
and that someone innocent would pay for his brain upgrade...

OTOH I always thought everyone was way too easy on Xander:
he called the demon in 'Once More With Feeling'
and people died,
but Xander knew that calling demons was no small thing,
he'd been working with the slayer for six years and had no business being so stupid and irresponsible.

When you know there will be consequences then you are kind of responsible for bringing them on.

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:12 AM

CYBERSNARK

My favourite is in an old (pre-chipped Spike) Buffy ep (can't recall the title). Spike watches Buffy walk away after a tussle in the graveyard, and makes this dark, ominous, badass speech about how he will make her throat his chalice and drink deep. . .

Ominous pause. Spike turns to walk away--

And falls into an open grave.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:16 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Ohh Just remembered the slow mo' fight between Xander and Harmony in season 4.

That had me almost crying with laughter !!! That was genius. Especially as they both decide to give up and just walk home afterwards :)

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:25 AM

REGINAROADIE

I don't know that much about Whedon. Big fan of our BDH's, but I've never seen an episode of either BUFFY OR ANGEL (it's one of my summer projects to rent all the seasons of each of them so that I can finally join in on BUFFY/ANGEL threads). But of the Whedon I have seen, another trademark is that while there may be a sarcastic line thrown in the middle of a tense or serious scene, it doesn't disrupt the flow of the dialogue. It's still tense, but you can give a slight chuckle without losing that pins and needles feeling. Perfect example of it is in OBJECTS IN SPACE.

River: She understands. She doesn't comprehend.

Mal: Well I'm glad we've made that distinction. No touching guns.

River: No touching.

What I find interesting is that a lot of the best screenwriters have both a similar and distict style of dialouge with the characters. Joss Whedon, Kevin Smith, Alan Ball, Quentin Tarantino, Alexander Payne/Jim Taylor, the Coens, etc. They are famous for their rat-a-tat, blink and you'll miss it humor in their dialogue. But if you listen to their screenplays and figure out the prevailent style, what they're saying, what emphasis they give and all that, you can figure out that each of them has their own iambic pentameters.

For example, Whedon uses monolouges very seldomly. And usually before, during or after the monologues , there's a sort of denouement of it. (After Simon's monologue in the pilot, Mal shoots back with a sarcastic "Yeah, it's a tale of woe." And in JAYNESTOWN, Jayne admits that he's not much with words, which is why he doesn't use them.) But Kevin Smith loves long, prosaic monolouges that show off the character's attitude and opinions, as well as a peppering of swear words that become more like commas than vulgarities.

Kevin Smith and Quentin Tarantino are big into comic culture. Both have written monologues dealing with Superman. But Quentin's monolouge is about the logistics of being (when Bill is talking about how Clark Kent is Superman's satiric commentary on humans) while Kevin's is about the logistics of doing (the Kryptonite condom scene in MALLRATS).

Alex Payne/Jim Taylor and Alan Ball are probably the more grown up of the writers I've mentioned here, since they focus on regular domestic life with nothing too fantastic in their works. The Payne/Taylor combo seems to focus on characters that are either really smart or simple minded, but both lack basic social etiquette, and at least one of the characters is in a constant state of misanthropy. This next bit is from SIDEWAYS.

Miles: Okay, so what's the plan?

Jack: Uh... the plan is... you go.

Miles: ME?

Jack: 'Cause of my ankle. Still hurts. Just go explain the situation, Miles.

Miles Raymond: [laughs uproariously] Explain the situation? Yes. 'Excuse me, sir, my friend was the one balling your wife couple of hours ago. Really sorry. He seems to have left his wallet behind. I was wondering if I come in, just poke around, I don't know'

Jack: Yeah, yeah, just like that. That's good.

And while Payne does make culture references, like Tarantino and Smith, he's a bit more high minded with them. (an entire movie focuses on wine, with references to Hemingway, Sexton, Plath, Woolf, Bukowsky and John Kennedy Toole) And while both Payne/Taylor and Ball's screenplays deal with misanthropic characters who attain a sense of clarity and understanding at the end, in Ball's superb AMERICAN BEAUTY, it's fully realized, while in SIDEWAYS, it's not as obvious and a bit more ambiguous.

"I had always heard your entire life flashes in front of your eyes the second before you die. First of all, that one second isn't a second at all, it stretches on forever, like an ocean of time... For me, it was lying on my back at Boy Scout camp, watching falling stars... And yellow leaves, from the maple trees, that lined my street... Or my grandmother's hands, and the way her skin seemed like paper... And the first time I saw my cousin Tony's brand new Firebird... And Janie... And Janie... And... Carolyn. I guess I could be pretty pissed off about what happened to me... but it's hard to stay mad, when there's so much beauty in the world. Sometimes I feel like I'm seeing it all at once, and it's too much, my heart fills up like a balloon that's about to burst... And then I remember to relax, and stop trying to hold on to it, and then it flows through me like rain and I can't feel anything but gratitude for every single moment of my stupid little life... You have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm sure. But don't worry... you will someday. "

It's strange. A common person might mistake a sample of Joss Whedon's dialogue with Kevin Smith's, or Alan Balls' with Payne/Taylor's. But if one listens in closely, they're totally distinguishable.

"NO HAI ES BANDAI. THERE IS....NO.....BAND. AND YET....WE HEAR A BAND."

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:26 AM

EMBERS

reginaroadie: you should definely check out Buffy, because there are many references to Joss Whedon's love of comics
(have you read his 'Astonishing X-men' series?).
JW is on purposely avoiding any cultural references in Firefly (500 years in the future you know) but Buffy is rife with them!

Anyway one thing he didn't really get around to in Firefly,
but did beautifully in BtVS was the misdirected comedy
(okay that is probably the wrong term for it).
In 'Dopplegang Land' the Scoobie gang all think Willow is dead and has turned into a Vampire,
but the audience knows that isn't true:
so everything Giles, Buffy & Xander say is very funny to us,
but they themselves are miserable and mourning...
it creates a subtle comedy that few could carry off,
and Joss Whedon does it brilliantly!

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:49 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Most television series don't try to do alinear storylines...But Firefly did one with great success..."Out of Gas".

I mention this to mention probably what I thought was the best use of A-B-C storylines ever on television. "The Zeppo" on Buffy...What would normally be a B storyline on any other show is given all the attention. The A story of another possible apocalypse with the reopening of the Hellmouth is relegated to mostly offscreen, while Xander is put centerstage. I thought it was inspired storytelling. Its also a story contrivance that I think would have suited Firefly very well, given the size of the principle cast.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:16 AM

GRRARRG

Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
I like the 'undercutting the evil villain' idea... used to great effect at least twice in Firefly, first where Dobbs was shot right with barely a word-afterwards right in the middle of being threatening, and in The Train Job with the whole "This is all the money Niska gave us in advance." scene. Also used in Buffy numerous times (in Anne, where the big villain was standing too close to an edge and was killed by the guest star with just a little push, in the middle of his big speech, and when Spike was captured by the Initiative in the middle of his 'the big bad is back' speech).

Buffy Season 4, Halloween Episode (the haunted fraternity house): The demon finally emerges. It looks really scary. How are they going to deal with this thing? Then the zoom out, and it's 6 inches tall. "Fear Me!" in a high-pitched voice. Brilliant.

I mock you with my monkey pants.
Oh, yeah - check out my rock band! Click "Play entire CD": http://www.readyempire.com/index.php?option=com_artistdirectory&task=s
howCD&id=1

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:03 AM

STEVETHEPIRATE

Cybersnark, isn't the episode you were mentioning (where Spike goes blah blah blah and falls into an open grave) the one with Dracula? Underrated ep - not ruined by a subpar Dracula as some have suggested.

I'm not sure exactly where it fits in the realm of the different ways Joss uses humor, but reading this thread got me thinking about Mal shooting Patience's horse. She yells, "Don't you take another step," and Mal gets that "screw this crap" look on his face and shoots the horse. First time I saw it, I laughed for about two minutes straight, then realized I was laughing like crazy while PETA people were grinding their teeth uncontrollably. Good times.

----------------------------------------------
... and THAT'S why I love Firefly.
- STEVEthePIRATE, 4.13.05 (signature changed to abide by the FFF.net rules set forth by the amazing Zoid

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:10 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

To paraphrase Schwarzeneggar in "Twins":

"You forgot the second rule in a crisis situation. If you're going to use a horse for cover, you must be prepared to have your horse shot."

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 9:54 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by grrarrg:
Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
I like the 'undercutting the evil villain' idea...

Buffy Season 4, Halloween Episode (the haunted fraternity house): The demon finally emerges. It looks really scary. How are they going to deal with this thing? Then the zoom out, and it's 6 inches tall. "Fear Me!" in a high-pitched voice. Brilliant.

oh yes, I remember the first time I saw that episode,
the fear demon appears and I thought:
"there is only 5 minutes left in the show?
How can they possibly defeat this thing?"
and then we see it is 6" tall! LOL

and ManWithPez:
yes, I loved the shooting of the horse,
and I thought Joss (or someone) said in the commentary that there were surprisingly few objecting to shooting the horse.
Of course it was clearly for the humor....
and right afterwards Mal puts a bullet in the law man's head.

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:35 PM

DIZ

Quote:
I mention this to mention probably what I thought was the best use of A-B-C storylines ever on television. "The Zeppo" on Buffy...What would normally be a B storyline on any other show is given all the attention. The A story of another possible apocalypse with the reopening of the Hellmouth is relegated to mostly offscreen, while Xander is put centerstage. I thought it was inspired storytelling.

That is one of my all-time faves. It shocked me how many people missed the point. "Why were they focusing on Xander? There was an apocalypse!" Wonderful twist on conventional storytelling, and a nice goof on themselves. One of my favorite scenes is when Xander walks into the obligatory "Buffy/Angle Angst Scene" with the over-blown score and acting. The way Buffy and Angel awkwardly stare at Xander when he interrupts: Genius!

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:38 PM

STARBERRYGIRL

I have to agree, Joss does wonderful undercutting of his villans. One of my favorite instances is on the Buffy episode "A New Man" when Ethan Rayne starts monologing (sp?), and Giles comes back in and interrupts him. Makes me laugh every time!

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:41 PM

DIZ

Giles: Oh, bloody hell, the inscription.
Buffy: What's the matter?
Giles: I should have translated the Gaelic inscription under the illustration of Gachnar.
Buffy: What's it say?
Giles: 'Actual size.'

Bwaaahaahaaa! The best humorous ending to a BUFFY, ever!

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:52 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Diz:
That is one of my all-time faves. It shocked me how many people missed the point. "Why were they focusing on Xander? There was an apocalypse!" Wonderful twist on conventional storytelling, and a nice goof on themselves. One of my favorite scenes is when Xander walks into the obligatory "Buffy/Angle Angst Scene" with the over-blown score and acting. The way Buffy and Angel awkwardly stare at Xander when he interrupts: Genius!

'Zeppo' was one of my favorites too!
it is a wonderful exploration of POV,
and I would love to see that done in an episode of 'Firefly'...
because each character so clearly has a different POV from every other one

but our wonderful show was cancelled before they could ever get to that point...

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 4:42 PM

CYBERSNARK

Diz, I prefer that bit just before Gachnar appears:

GILES: Once begun, there are several ways of stopping the ceremony safely. Simply destroying the seal--

*Buffy smashes seal*

GILES: --is not one of them and will immediately cause the demon to appear.

BUFFY:

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:
In 'Dopplegang Land' the Scoobie gang all think Willow is dead and has turned into a Vampire, but the audience knows that isn't true:
so everything Giles, Buffy & Xander say is very funny to us,but they themselves are miserable and mourning...

Then Willow walks in, perfectly normal.

ANGEL: Hi, Willow. . . *double-take*

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:41 PM

ILGREVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Diz, I prefer that bit just before Gachnar appears:

GILES: Once begun, there are several ways of stopping the ceremony safely. Simply destroying the seal--

*Buffy smashes seal*

GILES: --is not one of them and will immediately cause the demon to appear.

BUFFY:

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

Seems like that's another undercurrent, someone doing something that she thinks is needed, but is unnecessary and/or damaging...see, well, your sig :)

"Bye now. Have good sex!"

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Thursday, April 14, 2005 11:27 PM

EMMA

Interesting thread!

I like Whedon's successful experimentation with filming techniques. The most obvious being in Buffy:

Hush (it is almost mimed)

The Body (no incidental music)

Once More With Feeling (it's a musical!)

I am sure you guys will have more and can reflect on Angel and FF. However, I am not sure that there were so many original filming methods in either of them. Joss definitely experimented with storylines and characters but I don't think that is the same. Maybe he used up his grand filming ideas in BtVS?

I really should get me a signature

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Friday, April 15, 2005 1:38 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

In Out of Gas, there were the three looks of the different time periods represented in the episode. I think that would qualify for being a successful experimentation with film, though I'm not sure how much of Joss's hand was in that choice.

Over on Angel, some of the special effects fell flat, like (ESPECIALLY) trying to remake The Matrix when Connor first shows up back from Quor'toth. But, some of the Vamp makeups were much better in Angel than they ever were on Buffy...Especially Angel himself. (Nobody could save Harmony, who just looked goofy in her vamp makeup...huh, isn't that strange that some people look better in vamp makeup than others. Drusilla looks fine in hers...Darla, not so much.) And the transistion from human to vampire was much smoother (most of the time) on Angel. It was like Buffy invented the ball, and Angel ran it in for a touchdown.

More on this later...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, April 15, 2005 2:55 AM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Loving this thread!

As an aside: Has anyone else noticed that when you watch a whole lot of Angel, Buffy or Firefly on DVD, you internalize the Whedon dialogue cadence....and then find that you've started talking a lot like Whedon/ one of the Whedon characters?

(Um, or is that just...me?)

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Friday, April 15, 2005 3:04 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

There seems to be a recurring theme of Hurt The One You Love going on in all of Joss's shows. Buffy and Angel springs immediately to mind, but its all over the place in all his shows...Giles and Buffy, when he was hypnotizing and drugging her. Wes and Angel, Cordelia and Angel, Angel and Lorne,...whom amongst his circle of friends hadn't Angel hurt at some time.

More on this later...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, April 15, 2005 3:29 AM

FIREFLOOZYSUZIE

Of course the OBVIOUS manifestation/ metaphor for this: Spike and Buffy, smashing each other (and a building) to bits before finally consumating their passion for each other.

Got to admit, love that Whedon kinky ;-)

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:14 AM

EMMA

Quote:
As an aside: Has anyone else noticed that when you watch a whole lot of Angel, Buffy or Firefly on DVD, you internalize the Whedon dialogue cadence....and then find that you've started talking a lot like Whedon/ one of the Whedon characters?

(Um, or is that just...me?)

Definitely not just you, which can be a problem when you say something really absurd at completely inappropriate times...whoops

On the whole 'Joss turning everyone into eeeeevil' point. I think the harshest thing he did was to turn Lorne (one of my least fave Buffyverse characters) into a cold-blooded murderer. Now that was just mean.

I really should get me a signature

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:22 AM

DIETCOKE

What is her reply after the credits start to roll? I can't remember...

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:23 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Travers: "She is a god..."

Fade to Black

Buffy: "Oh."

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:27 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Ahhh...Lorne. Far from my least favorite character, he really was, from time to time the one shining ray of hope in that show. Whenever Lorne was depressed, it just meant trouble all around. But, he was the most human of the group, and to essentially have Angel make him more demonlike by performing a very human act(murder), was wrong, wrong, wrong. Lorne kills someone, and becomes less human for it. Some, if not a lot, of his shine is sunffed out by trying to help out his friend Angel. I think Lorne is right to leave and say he's never going to return. And, the only thing I can hope for his character is that he can be happy somewhere away from the rest of the group, because they essentially killed almost everything that was good in him.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:40 AM

NYWOE

My favorite quality of Joss's writing is what I like to call the "Trademark Whedon Bait n' Switch n' Switch."

You think you see the way that things are going. Then you think to yourself "wait, I bet that there's going to be this surprise twist!" Only to find out that Joss is 2 steps ahead of you and it twists again in another direction.

It's too early for me to think of any specific examples, but they're all over the place...

I have heard of a place where humans do battle in a ring of Jell-O.
--Teal'c

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:41 AM

DIETCOKE

The element of surpise, when you think the story line is going one way, and then something totally diffent happens. The "Ta-whubba-who" moments!

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:47 AM

DIETCOKE

Good insight on Lorne. I loved that character. I stopped channel surfing one day when he was singing and that's what got me watching the show, then Buffy, and of course, Firefly!

It truely about the story and the dialog. I read the scripts on-line before I ever went out and bought the DVDs.

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Friday, April 15, 2005 4:50 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

I think a good example of this is Trash...So much had to have taken place offscreen for that story to work, and it all seemed to come together...kinda like a "The Sting" for the Firefly crew.

Not Fade Away in Angel, the last episode pulled another of these bait n switches. With the part of the story concerning Archduke Sabassis, just before the dukeout with Hamilton.

The way Buffy took out Psychovamp in her test without her powers...That was genius, even if it did hinge on some uncharacteristic vampire behavior.

Pretty cool...

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, June 10, 2005 6:13 AM

MANWITHPEZ

Important people don't do field work.

Been awhile on this one, huh?

I was thinking, and I think I might have come up with another one...And that's Crushed Redemption...

Whenever an evil(kinda) character turns up in a Whedon show, and then turns good, they might now have much time left in the world. Spike, while being an obvious contradiction to this, did manage to get himself killed (even if he did manage to come back). Dark Willow turns better, goes to England, and comes home...what happens to her...That's right...paralysis and skin chewing! Anya...Well, we know what happened to her.

Over on Angel...Lindsay...Yeah, kinda saw that one comin' though. Darla...I mean, she never really turned good, but for awhile, Connor's soul was doing double duty for her, and her feeling it may be why Connor was even born in the first place. Illyria, a once powerful demon, gets castrated(figuratively), and must live in the human domain, which she hates...then her only companion is taken from her...Makes you wonder what her future was going to be like.

On Firefly, things didn't get to play out, but personally, if I were Jayne, I would have been sleeping with one eye open. Its a Joss Whedon show...we knew all of this cast wasn't going to make it for very long. While Jayne's not a bad guy, he certainly has the potential to be...They all have (Well, Kaylee, but that's neither here nor there...) But, Book, often theorized as a high ranking Alliance official, manages to get himself shot in the fifth episode! Who knows what the future held for the show (Which is why I'm not commenting on the movie...I already know some of the things, but we're talking Firefly...not Serenity here...)

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

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Friday, June 10, 2005 7:06 AM

ODDNESS2HER

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
I think another is having a character that's presented with a problem early in the episode come up with the answer quickly, and then dismiss it. Giles did this in "Once More With Feeling" and, to a certain extent, Mal did it in "Out of Gas"

It doesn't always work so good, but when it does, its truly funny!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

Xander did this several times. Two other examples I can think of are in 'Ted' when he facetiously asks "What kind of a monster is he?!"
and in 'Earshot' when he remarks that he knew that the lunch lady was going to "take everybody out" someday.

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Friday, June 10, 2005 8:30 AM

SUGARBEAR1

I agree with so many of these posts that it'd be impossible to know where to start. One thing I noticed (as mentioned above) is not just the humor interspersed with the angst/horror, but the cadence of the speech. And after watching the behind the scenes stuff on both Buffy and Firefly DVDs, the DVD narrations, and the intro to the BDM, it's Joss. Just pure Joss. My husband is a Joss fan - he got me into Buffy, but not a Firefly fan --- yet. We are working on that prior to the true release of the BDM. I pulled a copy of Joss' BDM intro from here and read it to my husband trying to use the pauses and inflections I remembered and so much Joss-ism just came to me. Husband-boy was floored and said he could just hear Joss' voice saying those very words.

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Friday, June 10, 2005 10:27 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL

I was always a fan of the mishearding or mispronunciation thing:
ex: Kakistos, Buffy calls him Taquitos this one cracks me up everytime.

My all time top ten favorite moment though is in The Body, when Anya is trying to understand death, and it so adequetly shows how everyone deals with death differently. Willow can't pick out an outfit, Xander's punching walls, and Anya just doesn't know what to do or how to feel. She doesn't understand why Joyce doesn't just get back in that body. And she laments that Joyce won't brush her hair ever again or drink fruit punch, or whatever, and that no one will tell her why. It was the single most moment that made me understand why death was so hard on people, it's the why of it all. There is no why, it just is.

Illyria has a similar moment on Angel, as actually does Connor, and a similar moment happens when they take Tracey on board (when they think he's dead) and you get to see how everyone deals with it differently.

Also I love how in all of his universes for Joss there is no creature more terrible than a man or woman with nothing to lose (or alternating a raging case of the morals). And I mean that in a good and a bad way.

Oh and that crazy people generally a talkin' more truth than we care to hear. Drusilla was nuttier than a fruit cake, but she was rarely wrong (if you coulf figure out what she was trying to say), much like River.

I just love all 3 and I love Joss's voice. When I first started writing fanfic it was hard to grab it and mimic it but after a while you just get into the groove and it works.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Inara: "Do aliens live among us?"
Kaylee: "Yes. One of them's a doctor."

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 3:48 PM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
ex: Kakistos, Buffy calls him Taquitos this one cracks me up everytime.

"Kissing toast."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:22 PM

NYWOE

I can't remember if this was already discussed, but I've been noticing on Firefly that a lot of times someone will say an absolute statement, and then immediately back-track (or have someone point out that they are way off).

Examples:
Mal-- "We're not theives. Well, we are theives."

Mal-- "There's no way they could find that cargo, even if they were looking."
Zoe-- "Oh yeah, why not?"
Mal-- "'Cause."

Mal-- "And I never back down from a fight."
Inara-- "Yes you do, you do all the time!"

Mal-- "If I wanted medical advice, I'd be talking to a doctor."
Simon-- "You are talking to a doctor."

Come to think of it, it seems to be mostly Mal. :) I can't think of any Buffy/ Angel examples off-hand, but I'm sure they're there.

_____________________________________
If you're an Arizonan and a Browncoat, come join us:

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 4:52 AM

TRALALAH

I think the most compelling thing about Whedon's style is that it is complicated. His characters and stories are not one-dimensional. There are arcs of all types all over the place. The other thing I really enjoy about the Whedon universe is that he takes chances. Whether it's never letting anybody be too happy for too long or turning his lead character into a freaking puppet or injecting humor into the saddest of scenes, there is always some risky story telling going on. Who else could have taken an unredeemable character like Spike and redeem him; have him truly fall in love with Buffy and be worthy of her? Who else could have taken what usually is indicative of a last gasp of a dying series, young cast member additions, and turned that into the interesting stories of Dawn and Connor? The Whedon universe doesn’t look down on its audience. Which is, I guess, what allows Joss and his writers and actors to say hey I’m going to take a big leap here but you can follow me and it will all be worth it.

A swhat?

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 5:24 AM

MIKEYMO

Two things I enjoy most about Whedon's shows:

1 -- Subversion of expectations. This is really what it's all about, in my opinion. Joss has always worked within genres, and he seems to have absolute and complete control over those genres. Horror, detective, sci-fi, western, 'hero' tales - he knows what the audience is looking for, and he gives them that, but not really.

Some writers add twists, or double-twists, but most can't make it feel organic, just tacked on (or "Gotcha! I'm so clever!"). Especially if you're someone who's seen a lot of movies/TV, most stories are either predictable or nonsensical, and very few can walk the line between them and come up with something fresh. If I had to come up with a single reason Joss is so incredible, it's that he just dances along that line and is able to create something compelling and new from areas of storytelling where (if it weren't for Joss) you'd think it'd be impossible.

I'm not sure I expressed this right (just woke up on a lazy Sunday), but I bet you all know what I mean.

2 -- In one of the commentaries, he mentions that all of his shows are about "created family", as opposed to families you're born into. I think that most of us have had a created family at some point in our lives (college, etc), and it's nice to see people who love each other - "who do for each other and ain't always lookin' for the advantage" - without the biological impetus. I swear to God, I mist up every time his characters refer to each other as family...

"I think I've got something in my eye..." -Wesley

P.S. The reason this is all so fresh in my mind is that I'm currently converting a 3rd person to Angel. My girlfriend had a knee-jerk hate toward BtVS and, by extention, all things Joss. But I showed her Firefly, which softened her up. She finished season 1 of Angel this week and called to ask me to bring over season 2 on Friday.
Can't...gloat...must..resist....ARRGHH!

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 8:08 AM

NYWOE

Quote:
The Whedon universe doesn’t look down on its audience. Which is, I guess, what allows Joss and his writers and actors to say hey I’m going to take a big leap here but you can follow me and it will all be worth it.

I'll raise a toast to that!

I think that one way that Joss shows this respect for the audience is by not having cliff-hanger endings. He trusts us to come back on our own.

I love Lost, but I feel more like I'm being herded along than invited in, you know what I mean?

_____________________________________
If you're an Arizonan and a Browncoat, come join us:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/AZ_Browncoats/

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 8:18 AM

MIKEYMO

Quote:
I love Lost, but I feel more like I'm being herded along than invited in, you know what I mean?

Word.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Sunday, June 12, 2005 8:47 AM

CEDRIC

This doesn't happen often, but there's a trademark way that people say, "huh" when the situation is just too big to say anything else. Go back and watch the scene in which Oz wakes up naked in the forest after spending all night as a werewolf. Then watch the scene in which Mal kicks open River's cryo-vat. The timing, the inflection, it's all the same.

And yeah, Whedon's ability to take a standard situation and turn it on its head is what allows him to then take a standard situation and play it for all its worth.

Several people have mentioned Mal shooting Patience's horse. I think it's funny when you consider that he tells people in "Heart of Gold" not to shoot at the horses. :-) He's smart enough to know when to break the rules effectively--and that's just what Joss does for us.

"You can't take my show from me,
Because I've got the DVD."

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Monday, June 13, 2005 1:18 PM

GRRARRG

Quote:
Originally posted by Nywoe:

I think that one way that Joss shows this respect for the audience is by not having cliff-hanger endings.

Sorry to be a jerk, but I'm looking at some mighty fine evidence that says he does:

* End of Buffy Season 2, when she runs away.
* End of that 4th season Buffy ep when the commandos capture Spike, and every one of us just sat there.
* the end of the 5th season opener (or maybe the 2nd ep, I don't know) when Buffy walks in and finds her sister in the room
* The ep right before The Body, when Buffy walks in and finds her mom dead, with no preparation or explanation whatsoever.
* The Gift, when the title character dies and we're waiting all summer.
* When they showed the Bringer sneak up behind Giles and swing down the axe, and we had to wait several weeks before a new episode, and then he showed up and they made us wonder whether he was alive or dead/The First

* End of Angel season one, when Darla shows up in a box
* End of Angel season 3, when Angel gets locked in a box

That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but I know there are many, many others. I can't think of any for Firefly, but I remember a Firefly commentary in which Joss made a comment about little cliffhangers right before the commercial breaks, and there are oodles of those.

I mock you with my monkey pants.
Oh, yeah - check out my rock band: http://www.readyempire.com/index.php?option=com_artistdirectory&task=s
howCD&id=1
Click on "Play Entire CD"

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Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:34 AM

BADGERSHAT

One of my all-time favorites...

In an episode of "Buffy" and I can't recall the name, or even the season, but there's a character that had shown up a few times, an old friend-turned-enemy of Giles... the guy who told us that Giles used to be named "Ripper" back in the day.

Anyway, the crew is searching for this guy, end up in a mausoleum, Giles walks off camera, and the bad guy walks out into frame, and starts "talking to Giles", in typical bad guy fashion, "You have no idea the hell I bring with me to unleash upon you" kind of thing, and in mid-sentence Giles walks back in, interrupting the soliloquy, and the bad guy immediately yells "Oh, bullocks, I thought you'd left!!"

Sorry for the vagueness, my memory ain't what it used to be.

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)

"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:58 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

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