The last spoken line in the Star Wars saga ... by STEVEthePIRATE

OK, but to be picky those weren't the last words spoken in the "whole" saga - just the prequels. I think Leia gets the absolute final line doesn't she?

Still,

Select to view spoiler:

maybe George Lucas thought Anthony Daniels deserved that honour for spending 6 films cooped up in that suit! I'd actually read an interview where AD commented on having the last line in the prequel and the first line in the original

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 6:50 AM

STEVETHEPIRATE

I mean in the sense that there won't be any more new Star Wars movies, and those were the last words spoken in the final movie of the saga to be released.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the character - certainly not the actor. Just another one of those things that left me thinking, "This could have been done better."

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STEVEthePIRATE is going to lunch.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 6:51 AM

KNIBBLET

... gay robot ... ?

I don't remember C3PO being particularly festive. If memory serves, he was always sort of nervous, uptight and tetchy. I wouldn't categorize him as gay or happy.

I always thought the last words were spoken by an ewok ... "Who is that fanboy up in the tree with the high-powered rifle and why is he shooting at us?"

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 6:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
[B

I always thought the last words were spoken by an ewok ... "Who is that fanboy up in the tree with the high-powered rifle and why is he shooting at us?"

"I'm gonna rip you a new puppet hole, bitch!"

Episode 7 could have proved very interesting...

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:13 AM

JEREELHUNTER

When you think about it, the Sith are once again in control of the galaxy, and the only hope of their defeat has just been born. "Oh, no" seems a pretty fitting sentiment.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:22 AM

Mind you, could make it a bit confusing when you watch the saga as a whole - as to a newcomer (as if!) it could appear that Eps 3 & 4 followed straight on. Guess George will have to add titles to the next DVD release: "20 years later..."

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:38 AM

JEREELHUNTER

Quote:
Originally posted by fray101:
Mind you, could make it a bit confusing when you watch the saga as a whole - as to a newcomer (as if!) it could appear that Eps 3 & 4 followed straight on. Guess George will have to add titles to the next DVD release: "20 years later..."

I think what newcomers would most likely be thinking is "What the heck? Did Obi-Wan and Vader both forget how to fight? That's the saddest lightsaber duel in the history of lightsaber duels."

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:45 AM

True - but Obi Wan was old, and Darth was mostly machine...and to be fair, the pair of them probably hadn't fought for 20 years or so, certainly not with light-sabres.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:38 PM

CYBERSNARK

Yeah, please note that the only lightsaber duels we saw in the original trilogy involved a senior, a novice, and a cripple.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:41 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

The lack of variety in fighting styles bothered me. The fact that everyone could jump and move like ninjas got very old. Darth Vader was supposed to be the baddest of the bad and he had a style which was very slow and deliberate. Why does that have to be a liability? He was so powerful he didn't need to jump around like Daffy Duck. Should have been the same way with Yoda. In fact, I would have prefered Yoda to have been much more subtle and, frankly, scary in his attacks. Someone who can raise an X-Wing out of the mud with a gesture shouldn't need to eviscerate someone with a lightsaber.

History repeats the old conceits

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:07 PM

GUNRUNNER

Quote:
Originally posted by Knibblet:
... gay robot ... ?

I don't remember C3PO being particularly festive. If memory serves, he was always sort of nervous, uptight and tetchy. I wouldn't categorize him as gay or happy.

IIRC Anthony Daniels the actor who plays C-3P0 is gay... not that there is anything wrong with that.

EV Nova Firefly mod Message Board:
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My Other Site:
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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:23 PM

PIOTROWSKI

Count Dooku is older in the prequels than Obi-Wan is in A New Hope. And he manages to be all spry and impressive with his lightsaber.

And Greivous is a man-machine just like Vader. Again with the spry.

Oh well. I'd rather have inexplicably awesome lightsaber fights than explicable ho-hum ones.

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 9:58 PM

Maybe we should just put it down to the fact that one film is now nearly 30 years old, was made on a smaller budget and didn't have such high expectations to live up to...Times and stunt coordinators have changed.

The Yoda flipping though does get a bit tiresome though - in fact I was playing one of the new Ep III games last night and the damned thing was bouncing around all over the place. Very annoying (although quite effective).

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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:40 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
This could have been done better

Yep, that pretty much sums up my views of Eps 1,2 & 3.

`

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 2:58 AM

OPTIMUS1998

Quote:
Originally posted by Piotrowski:
Count Dooku is older in the prequels than Obi-Wan is in A New Hope. And he manages to be all spry and impressive with his lightsaber.

And Greivous is a man-machine just like Vader. Again with the spry.

Oh well. I'd rather have inexplicably awesome lightsaber fights than explicable ho-hum ones.

1) dooku - not 20 years out of practice
2) greivous/vader -
- Greivous - essentially a droid with a biological brain grafted in, and enough of the original creature's organs to sustain the brain.
and i know if i were desingning an uber-super-dee-duper battle droid, i wouldn;t limit my design specs to resembling/behaving just like your stock humanoid....

- Vader - While also " More machine now than man", his machinary is designed to mimic/replace the "stock parts" if you will. and most folks I've known with prosthetic limbs, ( while there are always exceptions to the rule) don't move quite as well as those with natural limbs. and don't forget the full pressure suit and moobile life support gear attached to it. adds to the bulk, decreases manuverability.

God am I a geek............

...May have been the losing side, Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:07 AM

Besides, if you could kill someone just by squeezing your fist and glaring at them, how agile would you need to be? I don't suppose Vader took part in any physical fights between those fights with Obi Wan.

Hmmm, we seemed to have strayed slightly off-topic here!

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:09 AM

GWEK

You know, I'm getting pretty sick of people having episodes I-III just because they're not IV-VI. Sure, the plots are cartoonish and scattered, the dialogue is stilted, and the acting is weak, but the same all holds true for the original trilogy!

The prequel trilogy's biggest crime is that most of us are viewing it as adults rather than children.

Attacking Lucas's decision to give Threepio the last word is ludicrous, given that the character a) have the first line in Episode IV, and b) has served as sort of a detached observer for the entire trilogy.

Personally, I would have been disappointed if Lucas had given the last spoken line to anyone else!

Grow up, guys! Or, rather, grow down. The prequel trilogy can be just as much fun as the original one, but only if you let it!

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:22 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by optimus1998:
1) dooku - not 20 years out of practice

And (according to the novel, at least), Dooku was the best duellist in the Order before he quit (he trained Qui-Gon, who was the second-best swordsman).

Which, I think, puts Dooku on the same level of skill as Leia in the EU.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:37 AM

Personally I've enjoyed all the prequels - minor inconsistencies aside. There are other threads on this site which have been far more damning.

No, the prequels were never going to match up to the originals but perhaps we do tend to look at them through rose-tinted glasses! And were the Ewoks as hated so much when ROTJ came out as they are now? I'm not so sure...

But then (ahem) I loved Jar Jar...

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:49 AM

Nothing wrong with JarJar and I completely agree with Gwek about looking at the films differently. RotJ was really pap. Ep.3 is so much better than Ep.6 when being objective!

When did Vader become so mean, I always thought the darkside was cool until this film, somehow killing half a dozen children and the whole Jedi council is so much worse than destroying planets...

I saw Ep.3 last night and felt like my life had come to an end - I think I need help I felt the same at the end of Buffy, Angel, Babylon 5..... God I am a tragic nerd!

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Emma:
Nothing wrong with JarJar

Love ya babe! Oh hang on, we don't do that here...

Quote:
I saw Ep.3 last night and felt like my life had come to an end - I think I need help I felt the same at the end of Buffy, Angel, Babylon 5..... God I am a tragic nerd!

extremely dimensionally transcendental

No, I quite agree! I felt quite sad when the opening credits came up as I thought this will be the last time I do this...and just had a kind of empty feeling at the end. Not because I didn't enjoy the film, just because it was all over.

Don't forget, this wasn't Anakin's first massacre - killed all those helpless women & children (OK, they were Sandpeople) in Ep II. So he was already quite adept at slaughter.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:13 AM

GWEK wrote:

Quote:
You know, I'm getting pretty sick of people having episodes I-III just because they're not IV-VI. Sure, the plots are cartoonish and scattered, the dialogue is stilted, and the acting is weak, but the same all holds true for the original trilogy!

The prequel trilogy's biggest crime is that most of us are viewing it as adults rather than children.

Attacking Lucas's decision to give Threepio the last word is ludicrous, given that the character a) have the first line in Episode IV, and b) has served as sort of a detached observer for the entire trilogy.

Personally, I would have been disappointed if Lucas had given the last spoken line to anyone else!

Grow up, guys! Or, rather, grow down. The prequel trilogy can be just as much fun as the original one, but only if you let it!

Alrighty then... I looked up your profile, but you've left me no hints. So, I'm going to presume that I'm speaking to a contemporary: middle-aged man, married and a father; even though I'm actually getting more of a 'early-to-mid twenties female' vibe from your choice of words. Still, I have to have some kind of basis for responding and since you've given me no clues on how to treat you, I'm going to treat you like a man (baby!).

I did not view Episodes 3-6 as a child. I saw the first at the age of 19; do the math for the subsequent two films. I will categorically state that the sensation of watching a story unfold was present throughout the original trilogy, in a way it never was -- not even briefly -- in the new trilogy. The entirety of the New Trilogy (henceforth referred to as 'NT) is an object lesson in poor-form storytelling.

To be fair, Ep. III did have rare dramatic moments in which I almost slipped into the story (supposedly) being told. That was certainly never true of the first two installments of this rape of the corpse of the Original Trilogy (henceforth referred to as 'OT').

But, as soon as I felt that familiar (for the appreciator of storytelling) feeling that I was about to be transported into another world, something would come along to send the balloon crashing fierily to earth. To the further credit of Rot$, this dramatic gag reflex was rarely triggered by a saber fight or action sequence. Rather, the thing that most frequently caused a re-substantiation of disbelief -- and ruination of the fantasy -- was the story itself.

As only one of many examples:
In the OT's "The Empire Strikes Back" and "Return of the Jedi", Luke struggles mightily -- physically, spiritually and mentally -- against the realization that Vader is his father and subsequently against the lure of the Dark Side of the Force. Mark Hamill -- nobody's idea of a strong thespian -- delivers this internal struggle very effectively and believably, in large part because the dramatic premise is logically sound.

In the NT's Attack of the Clone$ and Rot$, Hayden Christensen (who may arguably be a superior actor to Hamill) cannot reproduce this staple dramatic effect of internal struggle. A major portion of the blame for this fault in storytelling must be laid at Luca$' feet. The circumstances of the story do not follow logically. There is not enough justification for a loving boy, saved from slavery and raised by a beneficent, tolerant order of monks ...given the love and counsel of his ideal female... to turn into a child-murdering monster. His submission to Palpatine/Imperious is a logical disconnect that cannot be overcome. The story crashes and burns.

IMO, Vader should have been portrayed as a middle-aged contemporary of Kenobi or Jin, who falls from grace out of boredom with defending the less fortunate (world-weary/jaded) and who takes Amidala as a war prize after his fall to the Dark Side. She becomes pregnant after having been raped by him, escapes his clutches, and secrets herself and his misbegotten children on opposite ends of the galaxy. He finds her, but she refuses to divulge the hiding places of his offspring; he strangles her.

I feel Lucas' biggest mistake was in trying to make Anakin/Vader a sympathetic character in the first place, who really did little or no soul-searching before his fall. If you say he did do some soul-searching, then I counter that this 'Redeemer of the Force' reached all the wrong conclusions based on the evidence and his experiences as a Jedi, making him the stupidest divine character in the history of fiction. Anyone who says they can understand Ani's reasoning and conclusions... Well, I'll just say nothing, rather than something unkind.

Regardless whether it was by making him a wimpy punk or just stupid, the character was betrayed by the storyteller. I remember the OT's Vader as the baddest villain ever created in movies; he was larger than the films in which he appeared, larger than life. The NT's Ani/Vader besmirches that heritage in an unforgiveable way.

In conclusion, the Original Trilogy is clearly superior to the New Trilogy from the standpoint of storytelling. And it ain't even close; it's a weight division mismatch: featherweight versus heavyweight (or at least welterweight with a thunderous right hand in the character of Vader).

If you enjoyed the story related in the NT, I'm happy for you. Personally, I found "The Pokey Little Puppy" of my children's youth a more engaging and believable tale.

On the positive side (of the balance sheet), Rot$ did have some spectacular computer graphics, green screen and wire-work. That alone should keep ILM at the top of the game, and George Luca$ rolling in the dough. ...And don't forget to buy the toys and video games, y'all... Who knows? If ILM starts losing their lead to some up-and-coming concern (such as Serenity's ZOIC Studios), Luca$ may break his promise and make the Final Trilogy he wrote back in the 70's.

With a little luck, Mr. Luca$ will hire proper scriptwriters, directors and producers and stay out of the creative process altogether, sticking exclusively to what he knows: special effects.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
OT and NT, heh-heh...
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aka "Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope" - USA (reissue title) (new title)
aka "Adventures of the Starkiller: Episode 1 - The Star Wars" - USA (original script title)
aka "Star Wars IV: A New Hope" - USA (video box title) (From IMDB)

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:51 AM

GWEK

I think it's interesting that my demographics (which I will not reveal, because they're not relevant) should have anything to do with your response, zoid. The only relevant point is that I was a kid when I saw the first trilogy and not a kid when I saw the second (which was implied by my post).

A lot of people criticize the storytelling in the prequel trilogy, and, yes, it's scattered, but it's also not supposed to be part of a complete story. It's the first three chapters of a six chapter arc. Watch the first half of a movie and it's always less cohesive than the whole thing (or even the second half on it's own) will be. I also think people tend to forget how haphazard and slapdash a lot of the original trilogy was.

For the record, I think that Hayden Christiansen does a terrible job as Anakin. But I also think that Mark Hamill does an equally terrible job as Luke. But terrible acting doesn't stop me from loving the series. I don't think Hamill struggled any more "mightily" or believably than did Christiansen (although I will admit that with Hamill, unlike Christiansen, bad acting does not seem contagious).

I don't think that Lucas necessarily wanted to make Anakin SYMPATHETIC so much as he wanted to show how a good guy can go bad, since, based on what we learn of Vader in Episodes IV-VI, that's what clearly happened. While you may have thought the story would have been better if Lucas used an older Jedi, THAT'S NOT THE STORY LUCAS WAS TELLING (for that, I suggest you read the Star Wars: Republic comic, which does an excellent job of telling pretty much exactly that tale with Quinlan Vos).

If you go back to the older drafts of Star Wars, you can see that foundation of the new trilogy, especially Phantom Menace, already laid out. In many respects, Episode I is much closer to the movie that Lucas wanted to make in 1977 (but with Wookies, not Gungan), but the special effects and budget were not workable.

PS: I find it annoying bordering on offensive when people use the term "rape" with respect to the new movies. Get over it. "Oh, boo hoo, the poor memories of my youth." If Episode I offended you so much, you shouldn't have come back for two more helpings.

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:51 AM

GWEK

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 7:23 AM

GWEK:

You are who you are, regardless whether you hide it or reveal it. You have won your anonymity, for what it's worth.

I was not a kid when I saw the OT. I was predisposed and further educated to appreciate proper storytelling.

If I say 'rape of the rainforest' or 'rape of the world's oceans', do you find that "annoying bordering on offensive"? That's what I meant: a rape of the fantasy landscape. Do try not to be so politically correct/sensitive.

It's a nine chapter story arc. We just won't see the last three chapters, because Luca$ has said he won't make them. I don't know how to feel about that...

Luca$ went out of his way to make Anakin sympathetic. That's why his fall doesn't make sense of any kind.

I'm not a large enough fanboy to seek out obscure original scripts, with content that didn't make it to publication in the films. I am/was (since it's over) a large enough fanboy to keep hoping for a redemption of the series. It just never happened.

See ya' at the Serenity premiere. Take notes and we'll argue the dramatic/artistic merits of that film, too.

v/r,
-zed

P.S.
Roller coaster rides don't have characters or plots either, and they're still fun. Rot$ was a roller coaster ride.
But if you diss the OT by putting them on par with these last three, you'll get an argument from me. "Boo-hoo, the last three installments of Star Wars suck. ...So I'll make it sound like the first three were just as bad, so I can feel better about my lack of sophistication and standards in art." Sour grapes (reference from another well-told story).

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 8:05 AM

CONNORFLYNN

Prediction (You heard it here first folks ;) ) :

Episode 7 in 2011 =) The money grubbing studios will somehow someway get one of those book writers to write a script for 3 more movies here in the next 10 years. Evn if it is over Lucas's dead body ;)

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 8:31 AM

MAUGWAI

Zoid, as a storyteller, I've got to disagree with your disdain for Lucas making Anakin sympathetic. I challenge you to find a single good story in which the main character is not sympathetic in some way. Even when they're evil, they must be evil for a reason. A villain who is bad because he was born that way is for Saturday morning cartoons and crappy, easily-forgotten Jerry Bruckheimer flicks.

The only villain I can think of that I like, despite the fact that his evil behavior is simply inherent is Aku from Samurai Jack, and he's just funny. Main characters and villains must have motivation or nobody will give a crap about what happens to them.

Even the Emperor had a motivation. Some of the points he made about the Jedi council were good ones. Heck, if there was a movie about his history, we may have found out that he used to be a good guy, too.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:39 AM

maugwai:

I'll not disagree that a sympathetic villain, with a deep flaw that causes his fall, is both definitive and desirable.

If you read my previous post, you'll note that I didn't say that Anakin should never have been portrayed as a do-gooder Jedi.

Where I think Luca$' story falls off the tracks is in Ep II. If he'd had Amidala stick to her principles and reject Anakin's proffered love, the story could have taken a more believable turn.

Spurned by Amidala, his wrongful desire to possess her could have proven the key Palpatine needed to turn Anakin, in a believable fashion. Imperious could have dangled her as forbidden fruit, if only he would turn to the Dark Side. What person could not relate to having their heart's desire denied them, and then promised to them by a Mephistophelian agent? That's the essence of Faustian stories: Sell your soul and then win it back, because you were essentially a good person gone bad.

And that's the problem, isn't it? I feel Luca$ cheated, in order to make Anakin/Christensen more appealing (whether for marketing or to dumb it down for the masses, it matters not). It's like you can see the story it should have been in the tell-tale leftovers. Anakin strangles Amidala in Ep. III, but not for the reason that would have made sense, especially since the key to his fall was supposed to be saving her.

I think Anakin could still have been thus sympathetic. A young Jedi, struggling with forbidden love/desire... He professes his love to Amidala... She remains in character and rejects him on principles... He stews over this thorn in his side and it festers... He grows weary of selflessly rescuing the weak and needy, while his closeted heart's desire is denied him... Imperious offers him Amidala if he'll turn, and foresees her bearing him a son and heir to the Force... Anakin/Vader turns to the Dark Side, conquers Alderaan, kills her husband Bail Organa (whom she met in Congress) and takes Amidala as his prize... Vader takes her against her will ('rapes' her), she gets pregnant and subsequently escapes with the help of the surviving Jedi... She unexpectedly gives birth to twins and immediately dispatches the male child to Tattooine (having been told Imperious' vision by Vader), keeping the girl on the pretense that the child is her slain husband's daughter (Vader was surprised to find that Luke had a sister in RotJ, but not to find he had a son in TESB)... Vader retakes the Queen some years hence, and she meets her death at his hands... In a fit of rage at her continuing denial of him, he strangles her... He understandably feels bad about killing the only woman he has ever loved (although we can leave out the FrankenVader, "Nooooo!").

In such manner, Anakin/Vader is a human and believable character. His remorse at killing Amidala is remembered, when later he saves his son from Imperious.

But, as GWEK so aptly pointed out, that wasn't Luca$' story. What we got instead was snippets of good story (and what could have been excellent motivation and foreshadowing) pasted together in a most haphazard and unbelievable way.

As a final exercise in futility, I have to say that actors get way too much credit -- and way too much blame -- for the quality of storytelling. If Christensen (that is the correct spelling, BTW) is unbelievable while Hamill is effective, a large portion of that has to go to the logical premises of the tale. A great actor cannot make a bad story work. A great story can survive mediocre acting. Surely you don't need examples...

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Sure as I know anything, I know this: I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDM'

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 5:44 PM

MONTANAGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
You know, I'm getting pretty sick of people having episodes I-III just because they're not IV-VI. ... The prequel trilogy's biggest crime is that most of us are viewing it as adults rather than children.

I just want to respond to this, because it's a response I've seen more than once when someone says that they didn't like Eps I-III. It was said to me in another thread when I tangentially brought up III. It's almost assumed that you must have seen Star Wars in the theater when you were 10 years old and been so blown away that it has colored everything that you saw afterwards.

I'm in my early 30's (nod to zoid

), and I didn't see Star Wars or Empire until I was in college. (I had seen Jedi when I was in high school.) I never saw any of them in the theater until the rereleases. So I essentially saw every movie in the trilogy as an adult (if you can call a college kid an adult

), and within roughly 10 years of each other. There were no childhood memories affecting my enjoyment (or lack thereof) of the new episodes.

Some of us didn't like the new movies for pretty much all the reasons zoid discussed. Huge plot holes, wooden acting, horrible dialogue, bad direction, lack of chemistry between any of the characters or actors, use of CGI because "hey, it's cool" rather than to advance the story... in short, I didn't like them. I'm not saying that the originals were cinematic masterpieces of direction and acting, but at least they told an interesting story well. I rewatch Empire on a regular basis. I will never watch one of the new films again.

A lot of people liked these movies. More power to ya! I happen not to be one of them. Just keep in mind that not all of us who didn't like them did it from a knee-jerk reaction.

"One day, lad, all this will be yours ..."
"What - the curtains?"

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 9:03 PM

Quote:
Anakin strangles Amidala in Ep. III, but not for the reason that would have made sense

Now see, there I have to disagree. That scene for me was one of the best in the film - utterly believable. Anakin flips, that is his weakness, every time he flipped I believed it. The stuff he did which I found harder to understand was when he voluntarily did evil/stupid things whilst thinking about them - such as joining Sidious after (believably) chopping off Windu's hand or killing the younglings and so on. His weakness was the strength of his emotions - they made him impulsive, the whole strangling of his misses was wholly believable.

On a different note IMHO your ideas for Anakin would be too much for me within the context of Star Wars (as opposed to say, Buffy). Rape? - he isn't a being without a soul - he couldn't be redeemed from that. Essentially, this is a story for children (no bad thing - many of the finest stories are for children) and I think that would just be too much.

On an even broader note, can we try and be a bit smily and tongue-in-cheek when writing please folks. I am a sensitive soul and like to read friendly, non-personal comments. Thanks peeps

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 3:48 AM

Emma:

I'm an old-fashioned chivalrist (not chauvinist). I do not wrestle in the same way with females that I do with males. (NB: There's at least one maneuver known to wrestlers that I would be hesitant to use on a male opponent; but which I would never use on a female. You guys know which one I'm talking about.)

From wrestling analogically to debating, a man argues with a contemporary differently than he does with a younger person or a female. If you think about it, this is a rule that every sane person knows and practices in real-life face-to-face communications. We adjust our presentation of our message based on whether we're talking to a friend, or our friend's child or grandma. (NB: An honest person does not revise the content of the message; but how it's said should be tailored to the person/s receiving it.)

The problem with the Internet is NOT that we don't know each other's names, addresses and phone numbers; but that we don't know anything about the life experiences of the other person, and the 'trigger words' which will effectively end the reasoning process transpiring between communicators.

That is why I like to know the other person's sex, age, and the experiences that are important to them, before I make a response. So, I always check their Profile Page, if they're someone new to me. I really don't want to know what city they live in or their real name, unless they're just exceedingly proud of those details to the point where it becomes important to them to share.

If you felt somehow abused by the process of debate, please remember that the comments were not addressed to you. They were open comments, true, placed in a forum where everyone coud read them. But it's really just a couple or three guys 'wrestling', and occasionally using one of those hold-breaks or reverse-and-pin moves that we'd never use on a female or juvenile. ...But still not that one maneuver, hmmm, guys?

As to the Anakin/Vader strangulation of Amidala, you said:

Quote:
Rape? - he isn't a being without a soul - he couldn't be redeemed from that. Essentially, this is a story for children (no bad thing - many of the finest stories are for children) and I think that would just be too much.

So you had no logical problem seeing him being redeemed from killing a dozen or more children? As far as I am still convinced -- until I see a convincing counter-argument -- he should never have been written as a mass-murderer of Tuskans.

How does Amidala's comforting him after he makes that confession in TAotC make any kind of sense? The Amidala we'd been presented with thus far would have immediately turned him in to the Jedi Council. Think about it. This is exactly the kind of blind Lucas-fanaticism I'm talking about.

Furthermore, if Amidala had spurned Ani a few scenes earlier as I have suggested, that rejection added to his mother's torturous death makes a more believable motivation for the massacre, without fear of alienating the object of his desire (whom has rejected him already) and without betraying the honorable character of Amidala.

Rapes have been portrayed in movies for far longer than nudity. Forceful conquest of females by evil males has been going on in celluloid since the first "I'm a traditionalist"-styled villain tied a farmer's daughter to a railroad track.

Killing a roomful of children and a 'Lakotan village' full of women and children? Not so much. My 11-year old son turned his head from the screen in shame at the actions of his erstwhile hero as Vader held one child in his arms while sabering a couple of others at his feet, and later forcefully commented as we were exiting the theatre, "I just want to hit Anakin!".

I, of course, went into full 'Daddy Mode' and reminded him that it was only a movie... And not a very good one at that.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
My son is such a good boy. The other day he came running in saying he had just enrolled in a message board for one of his games and "I've already made two new friends!" I said, " 'Friends'? That seems like a strong choice of words for people you've just met." He immediately replied, "Other people who share my enjoyment of Knights of the Old Republic." I kid you not. He didn't even miss a beat. I couldn't be prouder.
_________________________________________________

"Sure as I know anything, I know this: I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDM'

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 4:18 AM

I'll keep this short & simple!

As I've said above, and in other threads, I enjoyed the new movies. Not as much as the OT mind you, but what the heck. Would I have enjoyed them as much if they weren't "Star Wars"? Possibly not, but I was just intrigued to see the "full story".

I have to admit, Zoid's come up with an excellent alternative story - although that PG-13 rating would just be a glimmer in George Lucas' eye if he went ahead with that plot! Anakin's fall came too fast, too soon - we really need (or maybe we don't) Episode 3.5 to fully explore his descent. Yes he loved Padme but the way he just gave in to Palpatine after killing Mace - it just didn't sit right.

But the problem was, we knew that Anakin had to turn into Vader in time for Ep IV and there was only 2 hours screen time left for it to happen.

OK, I should really get back to work....

(BTW, as I commented in another thread, I've seen Hayden in theatre. Guess what - playing a sulky brat! Although he and co-star Jake Gyllenhall had a hard time keeping straight faces so hard to judge) But rumour has it he can act, I have a DVD of Shattered Glass waiting to prove this to me.)

_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."

Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:08 AM

fray101 wrote:

Quote:
...but I was just intrigued to see the "full story".

I have to admit, Zoid's come up with an excellent alternative story - although that PG-13 rating would just be a glimmer in George Lucas' eye if he went ahead with that plot! Anakin's fall came too fast, too soon - we really need (or maybe we don't) Episode 3.5 to fully explore his descent. Yes he loved Padme but the way he just gave in to Palpatine after killing Mace - it just didn't sit right.

But the problem was, we knew that Anakin had to turn into Vader in time for Ep IV and there was only 2 hours screen time left for it to happen...

Yeah, I knew I was gonna watch Rot$, too. It's like a horrific auto wreck. You really don't want to look, but something makes you turn your head and...

Was this thing really rated PG-13?!? How'd they get that done?

As far as the 'rape' thing is concerned and how it might affect the PG-13 rating, I can think of several 1940's era films that featured implied rapes. Like I said, it need not be graphic. All you'd have to do is show Amidala chained to a bed and then Anakin/Vader entering the room and closing the door behind him. She comes up with a bruised cheek, a split lip, and pregnant, et voila! the rape scene is dispatched with, PG-13 intact. If Luca$ wanted to titillate, he could show her post-'forced entry' with a torn blouse, a la lurid detective dime novels of the 60's.

Like I wrote in another post, another thread: The whole New Trilogy (NT) exercise was like trying to build half a bridge, to meet its other half that was built 20 years before. The problem, as I postulated, is that the older half is so beautiful a work of engineering, while this last half is rickety, off-center and missing some major cross-members. Although the NT does have some really nice (industrial) lights and magic strung along its length, I don't think it makes a proper bridge to the past glory of the franchise.

You stated there was only 2 hours to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. But if Luca$ had been more honest, more true to his characters, the turning would have begun when Amidala rejected Ani early in TAotC. There would thus have been a lot more time to build two or three believable motivations for his fall, based on Anakin's character flaws. (NB: ...whether those motivations and plot points matched the ones I outlined or not. I was only providing an example for how the story could have been redeemed.) I do still believe that Luca$ had a different story in mind -- based on 'residual' actions left in the movie -- but that he "went out of his way" to make Anakin more marketable as a youthful hero, for as long as possible.

But, I will grant that Ep III was a better movie than I or II, and that the special effects were bleeding edge. Luca$ really pulled out all the stops, putting on a special effects bonanza. I thought the quality, quantity and appropriateness of the SFX were clearly superior to the previous holder of the title, "Matrix Revolutions". (NB: Don't get me started on why "The Matrix" was an excellent movie, while "Reloaded" and "Revolutions" were classic poor storytelling. You have been warned.)

As long as one could just relax and enjoy the visuals without being distracted by the lame storytelling, the moviegoer might find a lot to like about Ep III. Lots of explosions and light saber fights and a fantastic opening sequence...

Unfortunately for me, I go to the movies expecting -- no, insisting -- to be told a proper story. My bad.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I've just got to ask: "77, 78, 81, 84, 05! This time it's for keeps!" ??? Been looking for love in all the wrong places?

My wife's British from Newmarket...
_________________________________________________

"Sure as I know anything, I know this: I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDM'

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:31 AM

I want to hear your Matrix stories!!!

Just kidding - can we at least agree that overall, the NT were more satisfying than the MT. At least Ep III was an improvement on its predecessors, which is more can be said about the Matrix sequels. But that's a whole other thread and I'm too tired....! (although I'll just comment that I waited in the rain outside one of the Matrix premieres - the second one I think - where I caught a brief, distant glimpse of Mrs L Fishburne. Of course at the time I was not aware of her true identity...)

I live in the UK (but I daresay you checked my Profile and knew that!) and Ep III was actually a PG-12 over here. Have to admit I'm not aware of its actual rating in the US but seem to recall reading mention of a PG-13 rating in interviews.

I agree that the seeds of evil should have been sown earlier - but they weren't. And slaughtering Sandpeople aside there wasn't significant development in AOTC - hence it all had to happen within the 2 hour framework of ROTS.

Zoid, I really do think your idea is a good one, but for better or worse that's not the version committed to celuloid for millions to enjoy/endure and so I can only comment on the characterisation I saw on screen, not what I wish I couldhave seen.

Anyhow, fortunately I think we have another movie to look forward to this year with superior story-telling skills and proper characters....I, for one, can't wait for... "Batman Begins"

(oh yeah, that "Serenity" looks OK too)

_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."

Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 5:50 AM

fray101:

I don't want to wear you out. ("...I'm too tired.") Yes, I did read your profile (thank you for being considerate of my peculiar needs). I guess I appended my question about "77, 78, 81, 84, 05! This time it's for keeps!" and my statement that my wife's from Newmarket too late to catch your notice...

"Batman Begins" -- while not typically my kind of story -- does feature the intriguing Christian Bale in the lead. I thought he did an amazingly convincing turn in "American Psycho", and that should translate well into the character of the Dark Knight. So, I'm considering catching the flick...

Have a fine, soft evening. (London currently at 76° F / 24° C, winds steady out of the WSW at 9 knots, low humidity, clear or partly cloudy; sounds like a nice evening for a stroll to the local.)

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
For those considering a Profile Page entry in order to facilitate appropriate conversation, I've always liked "old enough for the scales to have fallen from my eyes." It's a Biblical reference (sorry, to those this may offend) to having one's illusions about the world swept away, and seeing Life honestly in all its beauty, and horrible truth. For most, this will be in the late twenties, for a minority in the early thirties or even late teens. I think it's mostly about having lived through some unfairness at Life's hands; but realizing that it was nothing personal, that everyone goes through adversity. If you still think Life is being unfair to you personally, or that you are the 'captain of your own ship of Destiny', then the scales have not yet been removed from your eyes.

The happiest people I know -- and to whom I come closest to envying -- are those in their later years who still cling to a child-like wonder, rather than becoming cantankerous old men before their time (like me).
_________________________________________________

"Sure as I know anything, I know this: I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDM'

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:03 AM

Sorry - hadn't even noticed the question about 77, 78 etc! That's a reference to the football (soccer) Champions League Final which my beloved Liverpool won for the 5th time last night!

Right, time to go home - have to admit I haven't done much work today with all this posting!

Take care Zoid - May The Force, nah, best not go there!

_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."

Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:19 AM

fray101:

May the Force be with us all.

v/r,
-zed

P.S.
I said I was a fanboy. I just don't particularly appreciate The Sudden But Inevitable Betrayal (Ep III).

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:40 AM

Hey folks

Ignoring the whole Star Wars debate for a while, it seems to have died nicely anyway, I was quite intrigued by the profile requirements. You see I too check the profiles but I know others do not.

Technically I can see the merit in both, you see do we check the profile and get an entirely inappropriate idea about what people are like or do we have no idea what we are like and form opinions only on the posts?

This is a deep and serious philosophical conversation. For example, my profile makes a point of saying that I study the Bible which, judging by Zoid's considerate comment, leads people to assume I am religious and probably Christian. This is in fact total nonsense, I read and study the Bible because it is a fascinating insight into ancient history, a tool used by people for centuries for good and for ill and the provider of some of the most important stories in Western culture. Plus, it has some rather spiffing fantasy yarns.

On the other hand people may read my posts and think 'ah, nice and fluffy' because I like overtly friendly and non-controversial postings. In reality I have an evil temper and can be quite nasty. This is the precise reason why I like nice fluffy posts because I have to watch what I write (I am trying to be a better person - awwww). So what is better, judging by profile or posting?

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:46 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

If you can get it, both.

see, Zoid was not familiar with the person's online persona so he went to the profile in hopes of some clue. He always tries his best to tailor his responses to the individual he is talking with. he's very good about that. And he's nice.

I’m pretty much what I appear to be…a random, odd girl who obsess over Firefly. And I like to skip.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
Can we not revel in our cyber-love?

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Emma:

On the other hand people may read my posts and think 'ah, nice and fluffy' because I like overtly friendly and non-controversial postings. In reality I have an evil temper and can be quite nasty.
extremely dimensionally transcendental

OMG - you're me!

I've only very recently added a profile and it doesn't give much away. But it is nice to have some idea about the people you're posting with.

_____________________________________
"Why would I want to leave Serenity?"
"Can't think of a reason."

Over 100 Serenity screencaps now available at www.destinything.com (yep, bought me a proper name!)

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 8:50 AM

Quote:
And I like to skip.

skipping is good, particularly when walking down the street with other people - it can embarrass them. Thatweirdgirl, You are at a distinctive advantage, you have a website and we can all tell what you are like - in a nice, not scary way of course

Fray101, Of course I'm like you, I'd worked that one out ages ago - didn't know you had a temper though, am now slightly scared!

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 10:09 AM

Emma posited the philosophical question of the century (or at least the past week):

Quote:
...So what is better, judging by profile or posting?

Well, I'm fairly non-judgmental, judging by the norm. (That was a pun.) But, I'd have to say, "Both".

In the first instance, when one does not know to whom one is speaking, there are many obstacles to communication. I dislike talking on the phone, for instance, because of the lack of non-verbal cues ('body language').

For Internet discussions, there is only the language being used. Even on the phone, I can tell if I'm speaking to a male or female, and their approximate age/education from the outset.

I know it is not politically correct to differentiate between the sexes; but I do, because that's how I was raised. I treat females with more care than I do males; females tend to break more easily than males, and I was raised never to threaten a female by word or deed. I stand ready for judgment on that score.

I am not, however, entirely loathe to be confrontational with a female, if she insists. I have had many satisfying debates with women, and have never seen the advantage in patronizing them or discounting their reasoning. I see females as intellectual equals to males, in some ways and specific cases superior.

But a male will 'throw down' on another male in a way that necessitates a visceral response. Think of it as 'spraying the decks with testosterone'. Is it pretty, or fun, or desirable? No. But it happens. If a (unannounced) female accidentally uses a "trigger word" with a male, she may inadvertantly get treated as roughly as a male. The same goes with a male who thinks he speaking to another male, and it turns out that the other is a female: He may inadvertantly use a "trigger word" that offends her to her core, without any intention to do so; but the damage is done, primarily because of the lack of fundamental information.

In the second instance you cited: Regardless what is in someone's Profile, it is the historical trend -- the tenor of a poster's communications when taken as a whole -- that is the best descriptor of the poster's capabilities for rational discourse and their temperament. One can say anything one likes in the Profile Page; but by one's acts (or words), one is known. One can say "I'm a great guy"; but if one subsequently acts like a boor on a regular basis (I'm willing to forgive 'bad days', we all have 'em), then one is a boor, protestations to the contrary notwithstanding. I believe that was your point, so I'd say we agree on that score, n'est-ce pas?

But, if we can all just relax the sphincter a little... How much can it hurt or prove an invasion of privacy to say "I'm a 46-year old father of three, who used to play football in high school and was in rock road acts for ten years, before I joined the USAF and became an Air Traffic Controller, a profession I still practice"? Now, you know something about me: I'm a grown, well-experienced man who can take your best shot and give it back to you, plus interest, if that's the road you want to travel. But, I'm also artistically inclined, and so would prefer to take a more genteel path, if given the opportunity to do so.

Of course, my Profile Page could be a total fabrication. I might be an extraordinarily argumentative 12-year old girl... Treat her as you will.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Sure as I know anything, I know this: I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDM'

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:04 PM

So that is what ATC stands for... I did wonder, tough job, rather you than me the pressure must be icky

The more I frequent these boards the more I think I really on getting to know the same people, I do like profiles to say things like 'I live in X and am interested in Y' but I couldn't care less about gender, age or family stuff. I suppose that is because I identify more as a Brit interested in sci-fi and art etc than I do as a woman of a certain age with no children. Interesting! That could lead to all sorts of other philosophical questions...

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:52 PM