Is this a Sith plot hole? *spoliers for SW* by Starrbaby

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Is this a Sith plot hole? *spoliers for SW*

POSTED BY: STARRBABY
UPDATED: Friday, June 3, 2005 10:21
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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:37 AM

Hey there browncoats! I've finally gotten around to seeing Ep III, and something has been buggung me.
In Return of the Jedi, Luke asked Leia about their mother, and I got the impression that Padme died when Leia was a toddler. Leia had memories of her. In Revenge of the Sith, Padme died right after the kids were born.
I've asked many people to explain this to me, and I've been mostly rewarded with blank stares.
Since flans are so much smarter, I was hoping someone could clear this up for me.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:42 AM

CHAPTER11STUDIOS

There are two possibilities. Either Leia is remembering her fake mother (and was never told that wasn't her real mom) or, more likely, Leia and Padme had a strong bond through the Force, and that is how she "remembers" her.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:56 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Starrbaby:
Hey there browncoats! I've finally gotten around to seeing Ep III, and something has been buggung me.
In Return of the Jedi, Luke asked Leia about their mother, and I got the impression that Padme died when Leia was a toddler. Leia had memories of her. In Revenge of the Sith, Padme died right after the kids were born.
I've asked many people to explain this to me, and I've been mostly rewarded with blank stares.
Since flans are so much smarter, I was hoping someone could clear this up for me.

I had the exact same thing botherin me as well. And I don't buy the whole ' she's talking about her adoptive mother...' stuff because of what Leia says about her (mom). As a story line, it would make little sense for Luke to ask about her mom, and it not be in reference to their REAL mother. Sure, it COULD happen, but it just makes the workings all that more clumsy, imo.

Go check out the thread in Other SciFi stuff

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:57 AM

NEESHAROO

I had assumed back when ROTJ came out (long before anyone knew there was a Padme) that Leia was talking about her adoptive mother, the wife of Senator Bail Organa.

Episode III did not change that assumption for me - I still think she was talking about Mrs. Organa.

n.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by neesharoo:
I had assumed back when ROTJ came out (long before anyone knew there was a Padme) that Leia was talking about her adoptive mother, the wife of Senator Bail Organa.

Episode III did not change that assumption for me - I still think she was talking about Mrs. Organa.

n.

As Luke is about to tell Leia that they are brother and sister, it seems perfectly reasonable that he's trying to inquire about THEIR mother, not her adoptive one. That's how I see it.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:00 AM

FRAY101

If you take a look at some of the other Ep III threads hanging around you'll see this is a query that crops up quite a lot.

Forget the new films - as far as I'm concerned in ROTJ Leia is talking about her real mother - afterall, that was the whole point of Luke asking her. He wanted to know about HIS mother - not whoever Leia grew up with. And Leia replies that she only has memories because her mother died when she was quite young (I don't remember the exact words). Whether she was influenced by the Force or not, I'm sorry but I'm personally not convinced that she remembers seeing Padme seconds after she was born. Besides, Leia refers to memories, plural.

However...in the Making of ROTS book, it specifically states that this is the sad smile Leia remembers to Luke. Sorry, but I just don't buy that.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:18 AM

CHAPTER11STUDIOS

So, um, you buy the whole thing about there's this "Force" that lets you read people's minds, see into the future, lift huge objects and come back from the dead as an astral projection... but you don't think that Leia could get impressions about her mother's last days while inside the womb because of the the Force?

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 11:55 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by chapter11studios:
So, um, you buy the whole thing about there's this "Force" that lets you read people's minds, see into the future, lift huge objects and come back from the dead as an astral projection... but you don't think that Leia could get impressions about her mother's last days while inside the womb because of the the Force?

Last days of Padme, with the smiling, not so much

But yeah, I could accept its a mix of in the womb memories and (because of the force) a memory of that one moment that she was held.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 1:20 PM

THEREALME

Yes, I noticed this, too. I'm rather sure that it's a mistake, but I'm willing to accept the "womb-bonding through the Force" explanation.

The Real Me, First Officer of the Sereni-Tree

(The Real Me cannot currently receive messages from this site; he is not ignoring you. But he CAN receive e-mail at realme@pcibroadband.net.)

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:01 PM

TMURRIE

Not to get off topic, but another interesting thing with The revenge of the Sith was, did anyone else think General Grevious would turn out to be Darth Maul reborn? I mean that big close up of the eyes lead me to believe that, and for Obi-wan to kill him twice would be pretty cool, plus, Darth Maul was the only cool character from Episode One.

meesa jar jar binks

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:12 PM

TIGER

I'm not a Star Wars guru by any means, but here's a question I had - isn't it strange that in Empire Strikes Back Vader knows that Luke is his son?

At the end of Sith, Palpatine told Vader he accidently killed Padme, which necessarily includes his unborn child (he was only aware of one at the time).

Was it explained anywhere how he found out?

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:19 PM

SIMONWHO

Unfortunately most of the continuity in Star Wars is riddled to pieces. It takes them 20 odd years to build the first Death Star then less than 3 to build the second one? How on earth is Anakin "a great pilot" when he's really just doing the equivalent of go-karting? Still, it just gives them the opportunity to write more books filling in the blanks.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:19 PM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
I'm not a Star Wars guru by any means, but here's a question I had - isn't it strange that in Empire Strikes Back Vader knows that Luke is his son?

At the end of Sith, Palpatine told Vader he accidently killed Padme, which necessarily includes his unborn child (he was only aware of one at the time).

Was it explained anywhere how he found out?

Comic series from Dark Horse (in another city right now, so I can't go into more detail).

Vader catches a Rebel pilot and asks who destroyed the Death Star at Yavin. The pilot says "Skywalker," before dying. Vader does a little research (backtracking where said Skywalker came from [Tatooine. And he showed up with Obi-Wan. You don't think. . .]), then the Emperor confirms it.

Of course, this was written before the prequel, and Lucas has proven that he's not willing to follow the continuity rules he himself established. It is possible however to assume that Vader assumed that the child had been recovered (or that Padmé had survived long enough to give birth).

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:54 PM

THEREALME

Vader probably "felt" that it was true when he met Luke.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 10:04 PM

FRAY101

OK, just to go back to the original topic (sorry - different time zones & all hence delay in replying...), here's an extract from the shooting script of ROTJ:

[q] LUKE
Leia... do you remember your mother? Your
real mother?

LEIA
Just a little bit. She died when I was very
young.

LUKE
What do you remember?

LEIA
Just...images, really. Feelings.

LUKE
Tell me.

LEIA
(a little surprised at his insistence)
She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad.
(looks up) Why are you asking me all this?

He looks away.

LUKE
I have no memory of my mother. I never knew
her.[/q]

Now I'll admit that the "images, feelings" bit could tie in with the theory that she felt her presence through the Force. But to me the crucial point, as I stated above, is that Luke is after actual details about his mother - not vague images.

Besides which, wasn't Luke sharing the same womb as Leia? If she had those memories, why didn't he? and again, when Leia said her mother died when she was very young - this to me means a toddler, not when she was about 30 seconds old.

This isn't so much pointed at this thread, but from comments elsewhere it seems people are trying to twist events in the original films to tie in with the later ones (eg "Look at Ben's face when he first sees R2D2 - it's obvious he recognises him". Really?). I don't know how much of the back story George Lucas had in mind when he created the original films (we all know Star Wars went through several incarnations) but I can't believe the Padme-Anakin story existed in it's final form by the time ROTJ hit theatres.

As far as I'm concerned, this is (retrospective?!) continuity error but hey, that's just my opinion and in any event it didn't spoil my enjoyment of the film. Actually, I was more curious why Owen & Beru told Luke he was their nephew instead of pretending he was their son, which would have been a better cover.

As always feel free to argue!

Love the "General Grievous is Darth Maul" idea though...!

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 12:19 AM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
Unfortunately most of the continuity in Star Wars is riddled to pieces. It takes them 20 odd years to build the first Death Star then less than 3 to build the second one? How on earth is Anakin "a great pilot" when he's really just doing the equivalent of go-karting? Still, it just gives them the opportunity to write more books filling in the blanks.

I went and saw eposide III , although I've nerver seen epi I & II..of course like most I've seen the orginal Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, I'm a Harrison Ford fan what can I say. I felt like I had to see the last movie because,well Star Wars is as American as Apple pie..and its sort of an end of an era!!, and I've always found Darth Vader one of the more interesting charactors, and since this was about him I wanted to see it.

And while I know I'm making more of this then I should, and I do feel that Stars Wars should be accepted for what it is... and on its own terms..

I still felt that the story was lacking. Everything seemed to be happening a little to fast, and I didn't feel that there was enough investment in the charactors ... especially Anikan Skywalker and Padime( like I said I know I'm making to much of this) but I left the theater wanting to know more about them, more about their love story..and I defintely thought that Anikan SkyWalker's seduction into the Darkside..should have been just that..more of a seduction...they should have focused more on that and went into more detail,most of the movie seemed contrived which I,m guessing it was and the scene close to the end when Darth vader comes out with the Black mask..and he screams NO at Padime death..that was just cheesy!!! I also feel it could have been more intense

The only charactor I did end up caring about was Anikan Skywalker, I actually wanted him to suceed!!..and I don't think I was suppose to feel that way...lol after all the Darkside is bad...but it was more interesting

the other charactors were just there even though I was familer with Obi Wan konobi..and Yoda from the orginal series..!!! but anywho

I just feel the movie would have been better if they had focused more on Anikan and his being seduced into the Darkside!!

having said all that in the end I did accept and enjoy it for what it was and is!!

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 12:50 AM

DEADMAN

Leia says "She died when I was very little." And "She seemed...sad somehow."

While its stretching a point, "died when I was very little" could have ment "died when I was born."

Its also very likely leia had seen holograms of her mother, and thats where her images of padme came from. So no, its not explicity said anywhere that she had direct memories of padme or that padme died when leia was a toddler.

"Also? I can kill you with my brain."
-River

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 3:43 AM

GWEK

To respond to a few of these questions and issues:

1-The inconsistency with respect to Leia's memories of Padme are bothersome, if if you squint, you can ALMOST make it work. And, hey, it comes from the same scene where Leia says she always knew, on some level, that Luke was her brother. THEN WHY DID YOU FRENCH HIM ON HOTH? I find that continuity error (which is in a much closer timespan) more annoying.

2-Vader knowing about Luke in ESB: As pointed out, in the EU continuity, we see Vader track down this individual who is strong in the Force and learning about him. Also, the new version of ESB redoes one of the scenes between the Emperor and Vader to show us Palpatine telling Vader, and Vader saying it's impossible but accepting it nonetheless.

3-Why Uncle Owen rather than Dad? No real answer for that one, and I find it a little annoying, but not to a movie-disrupting extent. Maybe Owen and/or Beru are medically incapable of having children (since, hey, they never do), and decided that the uncle/aunt thing would be an easier cover if Luke ever found out that medical fact? Keep in mind also that Anakin Skywalker is a folk hero in Mos Espa (his mother tells him he gave hope to those who had none), so perhaps they felt that someone might eventually note a family resemblence and comment on it. Which, of course, then brings up the question: Why doesn't Luke know more about his famous dad?

4-Anakin as a master pilot: Well, he's not, really. He can just see the future for a split second, which allows him to react LIKE a master pilot. My belief is that it's the same thing with is sword fighting. A lot of fans have made the assertion that Anakin is supposed to a swordfighter almost on par with Mace and Yoda, but I don't see it. He just knows where to hit and when to dodge because he instinctively knows what his opponent is going to do. From Ben's point of view, though, it's much easier to tell Luke, who knows very little about the details of the Force, that his dad was a great pilot (which we do see demonstrated in Eps I and III, and also in a LOT of the EU material), than to explain that he's mildly precognitive. I mean, the kid's already buying a lot without asking questions...

5-Why did the first Death Star take so much longer than the second one? Well, for one thing, we don't know that it did. There's no reason to believe that they didn't start building a second Death Star a few years after the first one, and just kept the project completely secret. Further, if you really stretch, there's no reason to assume that the DS we see at the end of ROTS is the same one used in ANH. They could have gone through fifteen different models getting to the final version that ultimately worked. And, let's be honest, anyone who's ever built a model, put together a puzzle, etc, knows that the second one is easier than the first because you know shortcuts and tricks that didn't exist before. You just know how to do it better. 20 years as opposed to 3 years is a little bit of a stretch, but I think there are a number of plausible explanations. Note that many folk have also put forth the idea that the scene at the end of ROTS occurs out of continuity, years after the movie.

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 4:41 AM

FLECHETTE

If Leia can somehow, thru the Force or "genetic memory" inherit the bad donut hairdo - I really don't have much of a problem w/ her gaining images of Padme thru the same route

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 4:43 AM

FRAY101

Quote:
Originally posted by Flechette:
If Leia can somehow, thru the Force or "genetic memory" inherit the bad donut hairdo - I really don't have much of a problem w/ her gaining images of Padme thru the same route

OK, you've convinced me

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 9:37 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
And, let's be honest, anyone who's ever built a model, put together a puzzle, etc, knows that the second one is easier than the first because you know shortcuts and tricks that didn't exist before.

Heh, yeah, 'cause if I'm building a planet-sized space station that I plan to live/work on, whose predecessor was blown up by two torpedoes, I'd take shortcuts too.

Of course, this is the same empire that produces TIE fighters held together by paint and Stormtrooper helmets that people can't see through. . .

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 10:55 AM

GWEK

I don't mean short cuts like going the cheap route (although, let's be honest, everything is crappy loooking in Eps IV-VI because it's being built by the lowest bidder on military contracts), but that there are probably a number of false starts with the first one that would allow them to learn lessons to more quickly produce additional ones. If you build a model car, when you build the second one, you already know what tools you're going to need, and will have better ideas about how to do things. In all likelihood, those shortcuts will produce a BETTER model.

Having said that, though, it doesn't seem to me that Palpatine exactly cares about, you know, ANYONE who serves him, so I could see him ordering them to ignore all safetly codes.

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 12:05 PM

CSTEINME

Quote:
Originally posted by Flechette:
If Leia can somehow, thru the Force or "genetic memory" inherit the bad donut hairdo - I really don't have much of a problem w/ her gaining images of Padme thru the same route

LOL! I so totally agree with the bad donut hairdo through genetics comment.

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 12:25 PM

SUBGUY

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Having said that, though, it doesn't seem to me that Palpatine exactly cares about, you know, ANYONE who serves him, so I could see him ordering them to ignore all safetly codes.

In one of the stories presented in the Star Wars Tales comic, a design committee for the Death Star meets with the Emperor. He asks why there are all these bottomless openings and no safety rails. One of the Imperial designers tells him the addition of safety rails would produce a 36% cost increase. The Emperor decides he'll just be extra careful when walking around.

I have also been thinking about the whole 20 years for DS1, 4 years for DS2 debate even before it came up on this thread, and I have to agree with whoever made the supposition that perhaps DS2 was started years before we even saw the DS1 in EPIV. After all, it's a pretty big galaxy. Palpatine probably figured he would need more than one Death Star to keep everyone in line. For all we know, perhaps there is a DS3 only 1/4 complete somewhere hidden in some far off solar system at the end of RotJ?

Or there is that other explaination. It was in the script, so that made it so.

Captain Pete

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Wednesday, June 1, 2005 1:32 PM

JEREELHUNTER

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
[B
As Luke is about to tell Leia that they are brother and sister, it seems perfectly reasonable that he's trying to inquire about THEIR mother, not her adoptive one. That's how I see it.

But that's just the thing, questions don't get the right answers just because the one asking the question knows what he's talking about. Luke was "about" to tell Leia they were brother and sister. Then, he asks about her mother. Does she know that he's going to be bringing up someone they never met? No. She answers the question as she sees it, about the mother who she knew.

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Thursday, June 2, 2005 3:14 AM

FRAY101

Argh...but Luke specifically asks about your "real" mother, which to me clearly implies that Leia was aware of more than one - her birth mother and her adoptive mother (for her sake I hope there's not a third option). Sorry, but the scene made perfect sense viewing it for the first time in ROTJ.

Point of interest, the "Art of Return of the Sith" includes concept drawings of Padme, alive and well with her babies.

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Thursday, June 2, 2005 5:17 AM

OPTIMUS1998

Here is the best explination i have come across for all the inconsistancies (sp?)in the whole starwars 'verse.

in the "making of RETURN OF THE SITH" book, George Lucas is quoted as saying " Continuity is for whimps!"

...May have been the losing side, Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Thursday, June 2, 2005 6:20 AM

JARED

Let's see. Luke explicitly asks about her real mother, Leia has vague memories. No problem there. Luke NOT having them is making it obvious to me that at this point Lucas wasn't thinking about killing their mother that early. For some reason he wanted to show it on screen and screwed continuity (again).

But come on, we have Padme revealing her pregnancy and just days later she has huge belly. Also, Ep3 completely screwed up 5 and 6 for any future generations watching them in order. There won't be shock about Vader turning out to be Anakin or Leia being Lukes sister. The last thing we should have seen is Anakins burning body, a pregnant Padme (without knowing it's twins) and a mysterious new Sith replacing Dooku.

That way when Obi Wan claims that Vader killed Anakin the obvious conclusion would be, that he didn't want to say "your father is toast because I chopped off that bastards legs and arm and left him burning to a crisp at some lava river".

But then, by the time someone young enough could start watching them in order, Lucas will have made 5 more "very special" editions and "prequeled" the old movies to the point where no fan would go near them. Lucas and severe limitations -> genius, Lucas "imagination" running amok unhindered -> utter crap. Who else would turn Yoda into a Gummi Bear and then move on to turn half the Jedi into lightsaber weilding cgi pinballs bouncing all over the frame *sigh*.

http://festini.device-zero.de

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Thursday, June 2, 2005 12:21 PM

FLYINGTAMS

Quote:
Originally posted by Jared:
But come on, we have Padme revealing her pregnancy and just days later she has huge belly.

Months later would be the conclusion.

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Thursday, June 2, 2005 1:16 PM

SPIKESGAMEFACE

Quote:
Originally posted by Jared:
Let's see. Luke explicitly asks about her real mother, Leia has vague memories. No problem there. Luke NOT having them is making it obvious to me that at this point Lucas wasn't thinking about killing their mother that early. For some reason he wanted to show it on screen and screwed continuity (again).

But come on, we have Padme revealing her pregnancy and just days later she has huge belly. Also, Ep3 completely screwed up 5 and 6 for any future generations watching them in order. There won't be shock about Vader turning out to be Anakin or Leia being Lukes sister. The last thing we should have seen is Anakins burning body, a pregnant Padme (without knowing it's twins) and a mysterious new Sith replacing Dooku.

That way when Obi Wan claims that Vader killed Anakin the obvious conclusion would be, that he didn't want to say "your father is toast because I chopped off that bastards legs and arm and left him burning to a crisp at some lava river".

But then, by the time someone young enough could start watching them in order, Lucas will have made 5 more "very special" editions and "prequeled" the old movies to the point where no fan would go near them. Lucas and severe limitations -> genius, Lucas "imagination" running amok unhindered -> utter crap. Who else would turn Yoda into a Gummi Bear and then move on to turn half the Jedi into lightsaber weilding cgi pinballs bouncing all over the frame *sigh*.

http://festini.device-zero.de

Leia probably just assumed that her adopted mother was her real mother, why would Bail Organa burden her of the pain of telling her about the tragedy of her real parents?

As far as Padme being pregnant and showing the next day, one can infer that she knew well before she had told Anakin. Anakin had been gone for months, and it would have been easy for her to conceal her pregnancy with the senate dresses she wore.

You do raise an interesting point about the revelations of the OT being ruined for new generations of fans; I guess if I introduce a new fan to Star Wars, I will make them watch 4-6 first and then 1-3. :)

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Friday, June 3, 2005 12:59 AM

JARED

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Months later would be the conclusion.

It would, but nothing else suggested that months have passed. I'd expect that even Lucas would be able to make it obvious, when such a long time is supposed to have passed.

http://festini.device-zero.de

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Friday, June 3, 2005 1:05 AM

JARED

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikesGameface:
Leia probably just assumed that her adopted mother was her real mother, why would Bail Organa burden her of the pain of telling her about the tragedy of her real parents?

That would only work if her adopted mother died soon after Ep3 or Leia would be incredibly dense. Luke was about as explicit about that whole real mother deal as possible (at least without hitting her over the head). Not to mention that whole scene would become pretty pointless and silly. Lucas will probably go and delete and change that one, too, when he releases his next OT DVD, advertised as finally having correct lightsaber colors, a non-screwed up audio mix and more Gungans on the roof tops.

http://festini.device-zero.de

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Friday, June 3, 2005 10:21 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikesGameface:
Leia probably just assumed that her adopted mother was her real mother, why would Bail Organa burden her of the pain of telling her about the tragedy of her real parents?

Leia’s a diplomat, she need to understand what words mean.

When someone says, “Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?” It means that he’s asking about a mother other than the one that comes first to mind.

Which in turn means that Leia, hearing that question and answering without clarification must know of at least two mothers.

Now it is possible that her adopted mother died when she was very young and her adopted father remarried leaving three mothers of which she knew two, but what are the odds of that? Odds are when Luke asks Leia about her REAL mother she answers about the real one.

As for why they would tell her she was adopted, perhaps skin color had a part to play.

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