FFF.net I've Seen Serenity Thread **MAJOR SPOILERS** by everyworldspinnin

All true (except I thought she had some of the funniest lines in the whole film, just not enough of them), but at least she's back on board at the end and there will probably be more of her in the sequel.

EDIT: I have to add that, while there are some fans on other threads and venues saying that "Serenity" is obviously the end of the franchise, I couldn't disagree more. This is just my personal impression, but "Serenity" reminded more of the finale of season two of Buffy than anything else - at least in spirit, if not in the exact details. Of course, season two of Buffy was followed by the even more impressive season three. Frankly, if anything, I think that "Serenity" sets the stage for an even more impressive sequel. I certainly don't see "Serenity" as the end of everything, at all - no way.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:18 AM

EVERYWORLDSPINNIN

I think we did, rather indirectly, find out Book's secret. I think Book was an Operative at one point, and had fallen out of favor for one reason or another. His comments about faith and belief matched up so well with what The Operative said. This would also explain his status with the Alliance, and his vast knowledge of military tactics and weapons. Just a thought.

Wes

"I wanna cast...Magic Missile."
http://www.ifilm.com/filmdetail?ifilmid=220487

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:30 AM

IMDAHMAN

On a reality level, I want to know the reason for their deaths. Was it just Joss' call? Did Ron Glass & Alan Tudyk want out? Disputes? Are they bitter for now being 'out' of Firefly?

I know that as a long time fan of Joss, he does this sort of thing; he kills off people 'cause that's what happens... everyone doesn't survive (Jenny, Angel, Buffy (x2), Tara, etc). But I still wonder if this was due to some issues with the actors? I mean, the rumors are still out there that Colin Quinn was fired from Angel for showing up drunk & disorderly and generally being difficult.....

-----
- imdahman

They don't like it when you shoot at 'em - figured that out myself. - Mal

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:48 AM

GHOLA

Quote:
Originally posted by imdahman:
On a reality level, I want to know the reason for their deaths. Was it just Joss' call? Did Ron Glass & Alan Tudyk want out? Disputes? Are they bitter for now being 'out' of Firefly?

I was at the Charlotte screening and Chris Buchanan said that there were a lot of discussions about their deaths and that Ron Glass especially really liked the cast and crew. So I don't think the actors wanted out.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 6:59 AM

IMDAHMAN

Time to explore the wonderful world of Alliance Cloning in the Firefly universe!!!!

-----
- imdahman

They don't like it when you shoot at 'em - figured that out myself. - Mal

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 7:08 AM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by imdahman:
On a reality level, I want to know the reason for their deaths. Was it just Joss' call? Did Ron Glass & Alan Tudyk want out? Disputes? Are they bitter for now being 'out' of Firefly?

My guess is that both Book and Wash were marked men from the beginning. It seems likely that a lot of what was included in Serenity, plot-wise, consisted of the major story arcs of the first season playing out the way they would have if the series had continued. The actors probably knew this from the start. It was just all crammed into a two hour movie.

Which really gets around to my only complaint about Serenity, which is that it just seemed a little rushed. I feel like I need to see it again just to get a handle on everything that happened.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 7:08 AM

CARDIE

The fact that Ron and Alan were the two actors not originally signed with the rest of the cast, and the fact that both their characters get killed in the BDM, seem to me too coincidental by half. I wonder if Universal had budget concerns about signing nine actors to a three-picture deal and made Joss choose.

Alan has the most feature experience and his salary level might have been on the high side, whereas Book (though my favorite character) is clearly the least important to the ensemble on a plot level.

Cardie

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 7:20 AM

CALLMESERENITY

Quote:
Originally posted by manofsteel25:
Question for those who seen the film bit of a spoiler:
Okay... according the beignning Simon snuck in and broke river out of the Alliance's grp. Now in the Pilot I understood it that "two men" got her out to Persephone in cryo and Simon picked her up and paid them off. These two are not totally unreconcilable..... but I wondered if this struck anyone else....

Yeah, this struck me, too. I liked it. I liked seeing BDH Simon as opposed to the stuttering, hesitating Simon at the beginning of the series (I think he grew more than any other character on the TV show.) But it didn't fit with the story that Simon gave in the pilot and the story in my head. But I LOVED watching him rescue River, regardless. It was great. And it did, in a very short space of time, give backstory and explain their relationship. (The Operative didn't have to tell us that he loved her, we could all see it so clearly.) I may like this version of the story better than the one he told in the pilot. Maybe we could say his original version was just him being humble?...

"Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us." ~Jerry Garcia

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 7:29 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

The Simon opening is definitely a little out of continuity from the show: he may have had an incling of what the Alliance had done to River in Firefly, but he is directly told alot of things in the opening of the film which he doesn't seem to know later. I can overlook this and to some degree even fanwank that he never fully revealed everything he knew to the rest of the to keep River and them safe, just like he never told anyone about River's safeword.

What really bothers me, continuitywise, is the line indicating Simon and River have been on Serenity for eight months. It was six months between Our Mrs. Reynolds and Trash (approximately) and on top of that, how long have Inara and Book been off the ship? Book clearly has had time to become a well known community leader on Haven and I think that would take more than a few weeks. He had really made a home there and it appeared Serenity's crew knew the territory pretty well, too. If only that "eight months" line wasn't there, the timing wouldn't be an issue.

History repeats the old conceits

http://topshelftvshow.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 7:31 AM

EVERYWORLDSPINNIN

In AT's interview in Playbill, he stated that he loved being a character actor, and not a leading man. Perhaps he saw Firefly getting too big, and could see himself getting defined as Wash, and thus wanted out.

As for Ron, if his statements in the special features of the DVD, it wouldn't make sense. Anyone ask him about this at the Indy screening?

Wes

"I wanna cast...Magic Missile."
http://www.ifilm.com/filmdetail?ifilmid=220487

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 7:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by everyworldspinnin:
In AT's interview in Playbill, he stated that he loved being a character actor, and not a leading man. Perhaps he saw Firefly getting too big, and could see himself getting defined as Wash, and thus wanted out.

As for Ron, if his statements in the special features of the DVD, it wouldn't make sense. Anyone ask him about this at the Indy screening?

Wes

"I wanna cast...Magic Missile."
http://www.ifilm.com/filmdetail?ifilmid=220487

I don't know about Ron, but I read that same interview of AT that you mentioned and I was thinking the same thing. I really got the impression from that interview that AT likes being a working actor who can walk down the street without being recognized. I got the feeling that he was a little uncomfortable with the "being a star" thing. He specifically mentioned getting a taste of that, and it didn't seem to be a positive thing for him.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 8:27 AM

EVERYWORLDSPINNIN

I think it's still *technically* correct. In the pilot ep, Simon doesn't mention that he had a direct hand in springing River, but he doesn't outright deny it either. Since he doesn't really know yet who he's dealing with on the ship, he doesn't admit his full culpability in getting River out.

It may also explain why a warrant for his arrest was issued. If he wasn't there, how did they know he had something to do with it? I always just figured they caught one of the people that helped him, or they just assumed he was involved since he disappeared around the same time she got out. But now, it makes more sense.

Wes

"I wanna cast...Magic Missile."
http://www.ifilm.com/filmdetail?ifilmid=220487

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 8:49 AM

LINDALE

A couple of things. First of all, I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that Ron Glass asked to be written out for health reasons. Tho, as I've said, this could be total bunk. Also, I've heard that when cast members read the script, they were worried about how the actor of one of the characters who died was going to take the news, and no one wanted to be the one to tell him. I'm guessing this is referring to Alan Tudyk, leading me to assume he didn't want out.

About the continuity discrepencies, the best fanwank I've heard about the beginning is that the people Simon hired were the ones flying the ship and that Simon put River in cryo then and split up, as the Alliance would be looking for them both and that after lying low for a bit, they met up with him on Persephone and he took River onto Serenity. The harder thing to reconcile about this, in my opinion, is one of the Alliance officer's lines about how Simon used all his money bribing people and finding out about where River was, whereas in Serenity (episode), Simon says he was approached by people who knew where River was and that all they needed was money.

As far as the other continuity issue, Book says that he hadn't been out in the world for a while. It's possible he spent some of that time in Haven, and that when he left Serenity he just returned there, to a community that already knew him. And it wouldn't take much for the crew of Serenity to be familiar with and welcomed in Haven, especially with Book being influential there. They'd probably only need to help the people there out once and/or maybe crash there a few times after a heist for the people to get to know them.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 10:20 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I've seen Serenity twice now, and Ron and Nathan were at the first Austin screening on May 5. From what they both said I am positive that in the case of character deaths it was Joss' decision on a plot level only, nothing to do with an actor wanting out for any reason. As for health concerns for Ron, for those who have seen the BDM you can rest assured that the way he appeared there is a combination of good acting and makeup. In Austin he appeared to be in extremely good shape.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 10:30 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I've seen Serenity twice now, and Ron and Nathan were at the first Austin screening on May 5. From what they both said I am positive that in the case of character deaths it was Joss' decision on a plot level only, nothing to do with an actor wanting out for any reason. As for health concerns for Ron, for those who have seen the BDM you can rest assured that the way he appeared there is a combination of good acting and makeup. In Austin he appeared to be in extremely good shape.

I always had the suspicion that Ron was content w/ having been Book on Firefly, but wanted ( for some reason ) to no longer play that part. On the DVD extras clips, he seemed ( to me) to be very proud of his role as Book, but since the show was cancelled, he wanted to move on? One reason I got that impression was that I thought he was one of the last of the BDH to sign onto the movie. Almost like he had to be talked into it. Having Book die seemed like an amicable way out for he and Joss.

But I could be all wrong here.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 1:20 PM

SHINY

I would take Ron and Alan's (I was at the 5/5 screening w/ Alan and Gina) personal statements about loving the cast, crew, characters, and story and not having wanted out (in fact, having the other actors be surprised and afraid to call/talk to them after reading the script) over rumors and random people's speculations.

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, June 26, 2005 4:24 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
I would take Ron and Alan's (I was at the 5/5 screening w/ Alan and Gina) personal statements about loving the cast, crew, characters, and story and not having wanted out (in fact, having the other actors be surprised and afraid to call/talk to them after reading the script) over rumors and random people's speculations.

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

Alan has been quite in demand lately, so I could understand - career wise - if he's not available to committ for future movies. But I wanna just add that I don't think Wash's death was a good move....period. I'm more than bit annoyed at the whole idea. It made no sense. It leaves Serenity w/ out a pilot, Zoe w/ out a husband and leaves a huge hole in the make up of the crew. His comedic ability and antics will make any future projects greatly lacking. Part of me hopes this has been a cruel plot twist by Joss just to see how fans would react, and that when the BDM premiers, Wash really doesn't die. Well, one can wish, right?

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 2:42 AM

GUILDSSISTER

I just saw the prescreening last Thursday, and I have to agree totally. We were SO upset that Wash was killed; his death did not seem to make any sense whatsoever....as for Joss having to kill people off in all of his series, I just don't think it was necessary. Not EVERYTHING has to have death as a result!!!

Our group won't even talk about it; we're all so upset that it's doubtful we will go see it in Sept.- unless he changes it so that Wash does not have to die. We're hoping this was just a test. Book's death did make sense, and while heartbreaking was understandable and acceptable to further the plot.
Just my two cents - YMMV.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
But I wanna just add that I don't think Wash's death was a good move....period. I'm more than bit annoyed at the whole idea. It made no sense. It leaves Serenity w/ out a pilot, Zoe w/ out a husband and leaves a huge hole in the make up of the crew. His comedic ability and antics will make any future projects greatly lacking. Part of me hopes this has been a cruel plot twist by Joss just to see how fans would react, and that when the BDM premiers, Wash really doesn't die. Well, one can wish, right?

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Guild Sister

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 3:40 AM

Oh come on, aren't you over-reacting just a bit? I can understand you not wanting Wash to die, but that's life! Bad things happen to good people and sometimes they die senselessly. I didn't want to see him die either, but it added a measure of stark reality to the film and showed just how much danger the crew was in, and that any of them could die at any time.

I'm sick of SciFi movies and TV shows always taking the easy way out or using the reset button (Star Trek was the worst offender). At least Joss had the guts to kill off a major character in such a way that would horrify the audience and ramp up the tension to the extreme for the remainder of the film.

"What y'all order a dead guy for?" - Jayne Cobb

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 3:57 AM

Exactly. People were dying all around our heroes during the series and the BDH's were constantly getting shot up and wounded in various ways. The great thing about this show compared to other sci-fi shows was the realism (well, one of the many great things). Did anyone seriously think that, with the dangerous lives they led, that none of them would ever die? Wash's death wasn't pointless. In fact, it was entirely pointy. I'm sure we'll see him again in flashbacks in the sequel - a well-known Joss vehicle for having dead characters continue on in the storyline.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 4:56 AM

OHIOBROWNCOAT

I hated that Wash died but......He was perfect for the TV show not needed in the BDM. I hope that he doesn't die in the premier but I can enjoy it if he stays "dead".
Joss made a GREAT movie, I hated several parts but that's only due to the fact that I care about these fictional people.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 4:59 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by bikisdad:
Exactly. People were dying all around our heroes during the series and the BDH's were constantly getting shot up and wounded in various ways. The great thing about this show compared to other sci-fi shows was the realism (well, one of the many great things). Did anyone seriously think that, with the dangerous lives they led, that none of them would ever die? Wash's death wasn't pointless. In fact, it was entirely pointy. I'm sure we'll see him again in flashbacks in the sequel - a well-known Joss vehicle for having dead characters continue on in the storyline.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

Then why doesn't Joss make things REALLY life like and just have Serenity crash land into a building and EVERYONE dies? Just think of THAT cool action sequence!!

ok...maybe not. But I still don't like Wash's death. Not at all, but really not in the 1st movie. Does this mean I prefer Wash over Book? No, and let's not go there. Losing one is bad, losing two is really bad.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 5:31 AM

GUILDSSISTER

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDove:
Oh come on, aren't you over-reacting just a bit? I can understand you not wanting Wash to die, but that's life!

No, it's not life - it's a movie. I go to movies to escape real life....not that I want only happy endings, but unlike real life I want tragedies to make sense, or at least help the storyline. Movies are where I escape to - where I want to see the good guys win - something that almost never happens in real life; especially nowadays. I think it was very hurtful of Joss to repay all our work helping to save this show by killing Wash (for no reason IMO) and having almost no reaction from the other characters.

And "aren't I over-reacting"? You sound like Jayne....I was posting my opinion - I had read and respected everyone elses opinions, and thought mine would receive the same.

Guild Sister

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 6:08 AM

OXYOPIA

Wow...for a while there, I actually thought this thread would avoid the whole "Wash's death ruined the entire movie" issue. It did manage to stay away from the subject longer than most of those posted at the UB's, so at least that is something.

The question now is: Are we going to let the discussion become carried away between those who accept the deaths and those in denial? How about we discuss more interesting topics? May I suggest that those who wish to bicker about this point go on over to the official site and add to the useless cacophony that has been going on since early May?

Having seen the movie twice, I am much more interested in the following points:

1. Book pretty much disclosed his past through informing Mal about The Operative. The subject of belief, in particular, is very telling. However, does anyone doubt that Ron Glass will be back in a sequel in some form or another? Clearly, Book's story can be told without his direct involvement and might possibly be used in conjunction to solve a greater mystery.

2. Inara's backstory about leaving behind the guild and the great potential she had there was never touched on in the movie. Will her past be brought to light in the sequels?

(And yes, her character was woefully underdeveloped in the BDM, but Joss only had so much time to introduce the 9 characters, plus The Operative)

3. Is Simon or Kaylee marked for death now that they have gotten together? Joss has a history of wrecking happy couples...

4. Does anyone really think Mal and Inara will end up together? Joss likes to give people what they need, rather than what they want, so I don't see them ever becoming truly reconciled.

5. What is next for the crew of Serenity? Are we going to get some Blue Sun/Blue Hands involvement in the sequels? Does anyone else see the final movie of the franchise end with Mal sacrificng the ship in some spectacular way? (I know, it's been done to death, but I still think Joss could find a way to make it seem new and innovative.)

-Oxy

------------------------------------------------
'What people call impossible is just stuff they
haven't seen yet...'

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 6:24 AM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Some good questions. I don't want to speculate on sequels, except in the broadest possible sense, because I know I'm going to be surprised. I certainly was this time out. Guessing what might happen two movies on is far beyond my powers of prognostication.

Of course I'd like to see more with Inara in the next movie; I agree, there was too little of her this time around. I loved that the rest of the crew knew exactly what was going on between Mal and Inara, even if those two didn't acknowlege it. In this way, the crew was very much like the audience (this underlined by everyone watching Mal and Inara on "TV"), knowing what's going on and frustrated/entertained by their inability to express their feelings.

The Whedon Curse does hang over Simon and Kaylee, but for now I'm content to let them have their moment. Jeez, for Mal and Inara's sake it might be safer if they didn't get together.

History repeats the old conceits

http://topshelftvshow.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 7:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Guildssister:
Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDove:
Oh come on, aren't you over-reacting just a bit? I can understand you not wanting Wash to die, but that's life!

No, it's not life - it's a movie. I go to movies to escape real life....not that I want only happy endings, but unlike real life I want tragedies to make sense, or at least help the storyline. Movies are where I escape to - where I want to see the good guys win - something that almost never happens in real life; especially nowadays. I think it was very hurtful of Joss to repay all our work helping to save this show by killing Wash (for no reason IMO) and having almost no reaction from the other characters.

Oh boo hoo for you, cry me a river. If you want a safe movie go watch Herbie Rides Again or some other mindless Disney fluff. This is the BDM, and it's not for sissies. People die, people we love. It's a rough 'verse out there and no one is safe.

Quote:
Originally posted by Guildssister:
And "aren't I over-reacting"? You sound like Jayne....I was posting my opinion - I had read and respected everyone elses opinions, and thought mine would receive the same.

You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. Deal with it.

"What y'all order a dead guy for?" - Jayne Cobb

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 7:10 AM

IAMZOE

I've been thinking about the movie a lot since I saw it at one of the screenings, and reading this comment:

Quote:
I go to movies to escape real life....not that I want only happy endings, but unlike real life I want tragedies to make sense, or at least help the storyline.

above, helped me put into words something I wanted to say about why I liked the whole of the film: Coming from the same standpoint, that I want to go to movies to escape real life, I also think if things are too far from real life you switch off - it's not an escape at all, it's a bad movie... Tragedies are senseless, and I want some sort of fiction or art that explores how that is, otherwise I can't go back to my real life with anything. Putting a 'senseless' (in the idea that it's tragical) act in a story and then continuing the story and showing that people - I'm thinking of Zoe here - just get on with it - that gives it sense. If Wash's death was 'senseless' in the idea that it was a writer adding something to shock us, then we wouldn't care so much. These characters really live...

Does that make sense? I'm still not sure I said exactly what I meant to! Very interesting comments all round though.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 7:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by iamzoe:
I've been thinking about the movie a lot since I saw it at one of the screenings, and reading this comment:

Quote:
I go to movies to escape real life....not that I want only happy endings, but unlike real life I want tragedies to make sense, or at least help the storyline.

above, helped me put into words something I wanted to say about why I liked the whole of the film: Coming from the same standpoint, that I want to go to movies to escape real life, I also think if things are too far from real life you switch off - it's not an escape at all, it's a bad movie... Tragedies are senseless, and I want some sort of fiction or art that explores how that is, otherwise I can't go back to my real life with anything. Putting a 'senseless' (in the idea that it's tragical) act in a story and then continuing the story and showing that people - I'm thinking of Zoe here - just get on with it - that gives it sense. If Wash's death was 'senseless' in the idea that it was a writer adding something to shock us, then we wouldn't care so much. These characters really live...

Does that make sense? I'm still not sure I said exactly what I meant to! Very interesting comments all round though.

Exactly. Tragedy is a part of drama, something that Shakespear understood. Look at Romeo & Juliette, or even Hamlet -- would either play have had the same impact if the heros had lived at the end?

Serenity only killed off two characters, not the whole cast. But those deaths have caused all sorts of ruckus amongst the fans, which is what I suspect that Joss Whedon had in mind. These deaths may be senless but they are not forgettable, and fans will be talking about them for a very long time. They had a huge impact on people, and that's the very essence of drama.

"What y'all order a dead guy for?" - Jayne Cobb

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 8:57 AM

NXOJKT

I understand people that are upset over the deaths, I do. My girlfriend was especially not happy with Wash's death... but she's gotten over it.

I was at the Memphis screening, and the point of Wash's death was evident the rest of the film. When Zoe was stabbed I overheard people saying, "not another one." When Jayne was shot, same thing... when Kaylee took the darts to the neck, same result. When Mal got stabbed, shrieks of horror because there was a belief that he might actually die. When the scene ended with Simon's health not confirmed, there was actual tension that he might be dead. Even with River, you didn't KNOW that she would come out of her battle alive. You had to figure, because it's her and Mal's movie/show, and it's doubtful Joss would off the major characters. But for those people who haven't seen the show? Maybe they don't get that.

And let's address that for a minute-- people who haven't the seen the show. Who are the two most recognizable people in the cast? For anyone over 25 years old, Ron Glass is pretty recongnizable, and Alan Tudyk has been in some popular stuff as of late. Those are the two actors that an uniniated audience is most likely to immediately identify with. By killing those two, Whedon has let the new viewer know that no one is safe.

And we should be ready, because if there are sequels, there will almost certainly be more deaths. My guess is that at the end of things Mal and River are the only two safe characters.

Zoe is damaged goods. She reclessly risked her life in the final battle and it almost cost her... that's likely to continue.

Kaylee's death would rock the crew beyond any other, and that makes her a prime target for Whedon.

Inara becomes a target because of her potential relationship with Mal, and we know how Whedon is with happy couples.

Simon is a target because of his relationship with River - and how his death would likely send River into a homicidal rage.

Jayne is probably safe, simply because other than Kaylee, no one would be that emotionally hurt by Jayne's death. But, he's also got the opportunity to have a Boromir-like death in which he makes up for something stupid with a sacrifice.

I could very easily see the final movie ending with Mal and River flying off in Serenity together, wounded and alone. Kind of like the end of "Angel," where we had left alive Angel (Mal), Ilyria (River), and Spike (Jayne). Gunn was hanging on by a thread, but it was clear to me that only the other three would live through the battle.

As to some other points brought up... I too thought it was hinted at very strongly that Book had been an Operative. If we find out more later, great... if not, I'm just going to assume that's the answer to that question. I would also guess that a sequel (fingers crossed) would deal with the blue hands hunting down River. That's the main unfinished plot line... otherwise, I expect Joss to be very capable of creating another arc.

My one concern at this point is the music. The last 30 minutes of this film, especially, are very emotional. To those of us who have seen the show, the emotion is there. For new people, the music will likely dictate the amount of pain or elation felt. That falls squarely at the feet of David Newman, who has been up and down in his career, never really turning out any bad scores, but having a bunch of uneventful ones. There are highlights, like his work on "The Phantom," "Anastasia," and "Galaxy Quest," and this movie needs that kind of memorable score if it wants to really open new doors for a hopefully growing fan base. A movie like "Pirates of the Caribbean" is instantly a better movie with the addition of a great score (by Klaus Badelt). Jerry Goldsmith's work on "Star Trek the Motion Picture" likely had a lot to do with the addition of new fans. As did the work of John Williams in "Superman" and Danny Elfman with "Batman" and "Spiderman" and now the combo of Zimmer and Howard with "Batman Begins" to help bring comic books to life. Hopefully Newman can come up with something that really works, otherwise, some of the more emotional moments might fall very, very flat for people that haven't spent three years with these characters. Evidently Carter Burwell's score failed to do this, and so now we have Newman. I would say that it is too late to change again, but Badelt didn't sign on to "Pirates" until about a month prior to release - the posters all say Alan Silvestri. Hopefully that won't be an issue and Newman will hit a homerun.

On another issue altogther, though... I loved the first scene on Serenity in the film. In case you didn't notice, there isn't an edit in the entire long intro of both the crew and the ship. Joss has done these long shots before on all three tv shows, and I was glad to see him tackle one in the film.

Sorry for the long post... I just have a lot to say about this film.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 9:57 AM

America loves a winner!

OOps, never mind.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nxojkt:
On another issue altogther, though... I loved the first scene on Serenity in the film. In case you didn't notice, there isn't an edit in the entire long intro of both the crew and the ship. Joss has done these long shots before on all three tv shows, and I was glad to see him tackle one in the film.

There was some nice trick editing going on in that scene since the interior sets for Serenity were broken up onto two separate sound stages on the Universal backlot. As with the sets for the TV show, I'm sure the "break" came when Mal turned the corner and started to descend the stairs into the cargo bay. In older films you probably could have recognized the hard cut (i.e. like in Fellowship of the Ring in Bag End when Frodo walks quickly through the room and the camera does a whip/pan/cut to show Ian McKellan walking through the same room on the miniature set), but this time it looks like Zoic employed some CGI morphing to seamlessly blend the two shots into one.

"What y'all order a dead guy for?" - Jayne Cobb

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 10:57 AM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackDove:
There was some nice trick editing going on in that scene since the interior sets for Serenity were broken up onto two separate sound stages on the Universal backlot.

The scene did include some nice editing magic. However, the Serenity ship set (although divided into two sections) was still together in the same sound stage at Universal.

11thHour

________________________________________________

"Because teenage pranks are fun when you're about to die!" - Hoban Washburne

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 11:48 AM

ZEEK

People I have pegged for the next deaths are:

1.) Inara - Mal pretty much is never destined to be happy so she's my first bet for death

2.) Zoe - Either her or Mal are going to bit it by the end of the third movie IMO.

The rest I think will live on.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 2:28 PM

CARDIE

Quote:
As to some other points brought up... I too thought it was hinted at very strongly that Book had been an Operative.

From the first moment that Serenity publicity described the Operative, I was certain that this is what Book had been before he became a shepherd. So I'm glad it's at least hinted at.

Cardie

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 4:39 PM

HOTFORKAYLEE

Quote:
When Zoe was stabbed I overheard people saying, "not another one." When Jayne was shot, same thing... when Kaylee took the darts to the neck, same result. When Mal got stabbed, shrieks of horror because there was a belief that he might actually die. When the scene ended with Simon's health not confirmed, there was actual tension that he might be dead. Even with River, you didn't KNOW that she would come out of her battle alive.

After the pain of cancellation and trying to get the show back I was delighted by the news of a movie (I would still rather have had seasons of Firefly, but...). So when that happened I did everything I could to learn absolutely nothing about the movie. I did not want to know one thing until I had seen it.

The first time I saw it was in Miami last month. At that point in the movie having seen all of Joss's other shows and not knowing anything else I thought maybe Mal would make it. I thought maybe Joss had decided that this was his only possible Firefly story and was going to kill everyone, even possibly Mal AFTER he got the message out. Truly, I was worried it was all over. After the movie people told me about possible sequels and such, but I thought I enjoyed it more not knowing anything

As for people not knowing the 'verse seeing the film they will think of a happy ending I'm sure. Maybe one or two other people will die but they will undoubtably think it will work out in the end, like most movies.

"It looks as if we won."
"No, we achieved the mission objective. It is not a victory. Too many on both sides had to die for it."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, June 27, 2005 8:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by bikisdad:
Exactly. People were dying all around our heroes during the series and the BDH's were constantly getting shot up and wounded in various ways. The great thing about this show compared to other sci-fi shows was the realism (well, one of the many great things). Did anyone seriously think that, with the dangerous lives they led, that none of them would ever die? Wash's death wasn't pointless. In fact, it was entirely pointy. I'm sure we'll see him again in flashbacks in the sequel - a well-known Joss vehicle for having dead characters continue on in the storyline.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

Then why doesn't Joss make things REALLY life like and just have Serenity crash land into a building and EVERYONE dies? Just think of THAT cool action sequence!!

I know you were just joking there, but...remember way back before the movie was made, when Joss had just showed 'Versal his first run at a script? Remember how Joss wrote his first script as a final ending to the show? Remember that 'Versal had him re-write the script SO THAT THERE COULD BE SEQUELS? My guess is that it needed to be re-written to make sequels possible because the original script had EVERYBODY dying, just as you suggested. That's just a guess on my part, but I think we got off easy.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 9:04 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by everyworldspinnin:
I think we did, rather indirectly, find out Book's secret. I think Book was an Operative at one point, and had fallen out of favor for one reason or another. His comments about faith and belief matched up so well with what The Operative said. This would also explain his status with the Alliance, and his vast knowledge of military tactics and weapons. Just a thought.

My thoughts exactly, until I thought it fit too neatly. That would be too easy a solution to the mystery of Book & I am not so certain that Joss would let us off the hook with such an obvious explaination.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 9:43 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by bikisdad:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by bikisdad:
Exactly. People were dying all around our heroes during the series and the BDH's were constantly getting shot up and wounded in various ways. The great thing about this show compared to other sci-fi shows was the realism (well, one of the many great things). Did anyone seriously think that, with the dangerous lives they led, that none of them would ever die? Wash's death wasn't pointless. In fact, it was entirely pointy. I'm sure we'll see him again in flashbacks in the sequel - a well-known Joss vehicle for having dead characters continue on in the storyline.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

Then why doesn't Joss make things REALLY life like and just have Serenity crash land into a building and EVERYONE dies? Just think of THAT cool action sequence!!

I know you were just joking there, but...remember way back before the movie was made, when Joss had just showed 'Versal his first run at a script? Remember how Joss wrote his first script as a final ending to the show? Remember that 'Versal had him re-write the script SO THAT THERE COULD BE SEQUELS? My guess is that it needed to be re-written to make sequels possible because the original script had EVERYBODY dying, just as you suggested. That's just a guess on my part, but I think we got off easy.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

So, as I read your comments, we should expect to see sequels where the main characters all end up dead, w/ the possible exception of one or two survivors. Suddenly I'm liking this trip less and less.

Hope things don't play out like that.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:08 PM

WHOISRIVER

Angel ended with, you know. Well, I won't say. But you know.

Drama should be dramatic. It should be real life, gritty, damaging and damaged. That's what makes a truly interesting story.

I'm sure some Firefly viewers thought we would learnt about how Serenity flew at such speed, what Gorgons per second the engine worked at yadada.

No. Joss tells human stories. Our lives are painful, they're real, they're shocking, they're happy and they're here and now. Firefly was GOING TO BE a story that was painful, real, shocking, happy and then. The network cancelled it.

Simple fact? Those tuning into the TV show for a purely happy time, or something to purely escape real life, or to learn technical terms? They were watching the wrong show. It's as simple as that.

If Firefly was still on the air we would have been 66 episodes in now, at the end of season 3. Do you honestly think everybody would be alive and they'd be having rollocking adventures? Nope. It'd be painful, happy, damaging, upsetting, funny. A Joss Whedon show. A Joss Whedon movie.

That's what makes it good.

TheInside.org - Firefly Producers NEW TV series

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 3:34 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoIsRiver:
Angel ended with, you know. Well, I won't say. But you know.

Drama should be dramatic. It should be real life, gritty, damaging and damaged. That's what makes a truly interesting story.

I'm sure some Firefly viewers thought we would learnt about how Serenity flew at such speed, what Gorgons per second the engine worked at yadada.

No. Joss tells human stories. Our lives are painful, they're real, they're shocking, they're happy and they're here and now. Firefly was GOING TO BE a story that was painful, real, shocking, happy and then. The network cancelled it.

Simple fact? Those tuning into the TV show for a purely happy time, or something to purely escape real life, or to learn technical terms? They were watching the wrong show. It's as simple as that.

If Firefly was still on the air we would have been 66 episodes in now, at the end of season 3. Do you honestly think everybody would be alive and they'd be having rollocking adventures? Nope. It'd be painful, happy, damaging, upsetting, funny. A Joss Whedon show. A Joss Whedon movie.

That's what makes it good.

TheInside.org - Firefly Producers NEW TV series

What, I can't have the good guys win, the big bad meanies defeated, and a big party w/ fireworks and happy, dancing ewoks?? DAMMIT!

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 4:44 PM

SONG

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:
Originally posted by everyworldspinnin:
I think Book was an Operative at one point, and had fallen out of favor for one reason or another.

My thoughts exactly, until I thought it fit too neatly.

I agree. For starters, Operatives don't seem to retire in good health, especially if they have done something to fall out of favor with the Alliance.

I'm thinking Book was involved somehow with the department that trains and manages Operatives, and that he essentially blackmailed his way out of it when some horror forever altered his faith system. Recall that in one episode, when wounded, his ident card instantly buys him VIP treatment with no questions asked. I think he used to be a very, very higher-up top-secret muckety-muck, with enough power to somehow negotiate walking away with his skin and mind intact.

It would make a really interesting story, that's for sure. But I think Joss told us he ain't gonna tell it -- in the scene in the movie when Mal says, "Someday you'll have to tell me about that," and Book replies nonchalantly, "No I won't."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 5:27 PM