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Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I was hurt. I was mad. I was sad.

I thought everyone was going to die.

And that's why he did it. When I watched the TV show, I never thought anyone was going to die. In fact, after the near scrapes with Kaylee in the pilot, Mal and Wash at Niska's Skyplex, and Book while they were unloading cattle, I had it in my head that no one was going to die. Not ever.

So he took away Wash and Book. I wouldn't have done it. If I felt I had to do it, I'd have done it differently. But you know what? No one would ever read or watch one of my stories, wide eyed and open mouthed, and wonder if anyone was going to get out alive.

As for pleasing newbies, I hope he does please them. I hope he pleases them a lot. Because as many of us fans as there are, there aren't enough of us to bring in sequels. Not by a long shot. We need the newbies to get what we want: Sequels.

So if Joss did two things… if he made me fear for characters I'd assumed were safe, and he turned up the realism for the newbies, I'm glad. All hail the Newbies and their millions of dollars of ticket sales. We need them so much.

I am much more put out by the fact that Mal got shot in the back by the Operative to zero effect. Jayne's remarkable recovery after being impaled by a rusty metal pole is also notable. These are things that made the film less real, and worked against Joss' other moments.

But, all in all, small complaints for a good film.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Originally posted by MikeyMo:

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Originally posted by fireflygal:
if YOU read his quote from the Aussie interview he originally wasn't going to kill anyone but then it wouldn't ring true for the NEWCOMERS, not the Browncoats but the NEW fans.

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Like I said in my previous post, I really don't think it would have rung true for me if no one had died. I appreciate you have a right to your opinion, but I really don't think accusations of Joss ignoring his fanbase, or tring to "get back" at Ron and Alan, have much credibility.

From this fan's perspective, at least, the deaths give the film more emotional resonance than a feel-good ending would have. They wouldn't be our BDHs if things went their way.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Yeah. This.

Fireflygal, you have the right to your opinion just like anyone else, I wasn't trying to dissuade you. I'm just saying you shouldn't 1) say Joss is ignoring or being unfair to the fanbase as a whole, because he isn't, and 2) accuse him of killing off characters that he loves just as much as you (probably more than you) for cheap or illegitimate reasons. If you didn't like it, fine. Not everyone likes everything. Doesn't mean Joss failed, or that he was being unfair or intentionally mean.

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Originally posted by sefania:
I, too, was disappointed with the deaths of Book and Wash.

Yes, they are Joss' characters are he can do whatever he gorram pleases with them, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

I can understand wanting to add realism to the film for the sake of the newbies. However, having watched Serenity with a newbie, what struck us most was that he didn't provide enough of a background for Book (especially) or Wash to fully comprehend how devastating their deaths were. And they were *devastating* to the fans.(I actually had someone tell me after the viewing that I should refrain from making any big decisions for a week or two, as it takes a while for the shock to wear off.)

Yes, it makes a sort of sense for characters to die. But if the show had not been cancelled, it would not have happened it the *next* episode. And for some fans, waiting so long for another glimpse of people we had grown to love, that is probably where expectations were at - a longer story arc, covering the ideas that would have been shown had the series continued (especially since we had already been hearing rumors of a trilogy!)

I think one of the things that upset me the most was that here we finally had a chance to interact with characters we had longed for - and didn't get the same level of interaction we had become accustomed to. It didn't feel as well-rounded and character-oriented. And that was frustrating. Yes, it was action-packed, and believe me, I love action as much as the next martial arts fan, but it wasn't as fulfilling because I *do* care about these characters.

Book's death served a purpose, and I could fathom how that decision came to be. (Hearing Ron Glass speak about his time with this cast, though, I am truly saddened that it had to happen this way.) But I was still frustrated - he appeared as a side character - not a part of the crew, as the fans knew him to be. It leaves out such a huge part of the background story and makes Book appear to be dispensable. Knowing more than was shown, I felt that Book's death *was* enough to show that not everyone is always going to make it out alright.

Which brings me to Wash...

I am distraught about Wash's death, not just because he was a great guy with a goofy sense of humor and the ability to not be in the center of the action, but also becuase of his relationship with Zoe. Here, finally, is a depiction of a healthy, mature, adult relationship - marriage on screen that isn't derogatory or whiny, featuring characters over the age of 25. I am disappointed that I will not get to see more of what they could explore together. (Albeit rumors have already started that Zoe may be pregnant, and it is more drama-filled to have Zoe raise her child without Wash.)

To be honest, Wash's death distracted me from the rest of the film. I didn't believe everyone else was going to die. I didn't believe he was dead. Zoe's simple "He's not coming" left me worlds of ideas for how Wash would make it through. It wasn't until the funeral scene before I realized the truth in her statement - he's really not coming.

Upon watching the scene at the end between Mal and River, it appears that (if I'm not mistaken) the answer to the question of "Then who's going to fly the ship?" will be River. And as much as River is the ultimate enigma in this 'verse, it was hard for me to sit silently and watch the entire focus become River. (Nothing against Summer Glau, a truly incredible actress, or against Joss' creation, as I love the skewed perspective River has.) But for me, Firefly was about nine truly unforgettable characters, interacting in a way that spoke volumes to me. And Serenity, which I was dying to see, was about River, with other characters in a supporting or even dispensable role.

The challenge for me, is that here is a movie I have been waiting for, hoping for, dying to see. I want to grab all of my friends and go on opening night and watch it and be able to bounce enthusiastically, even ecstatically, that we have our characters back and clamor for the next movie (and the next, and the one after that...)

And instead, I will get to face a shell-shocked group of people who have been waiting so long only to have the rug pulled out from under them.

Yes, it's a dramatic turn of events. Yes, it is realistic to have people die in the midst of battle. Yes, they're Joss' characters, and I will continue to support his right to do what he wants with them.

I also support the fans' rights to say "Hey, why'd you do that?" Especially as they are grieving for characters that they have come to know and care about. It's normal to feel hurt, devastated, outraged, and betrayed by the Creator of the 'verse when in shock and grieving. Let her be.

In the end, despite whatever frustrations I may have, I will go and support the movie. And hopefully the ones that come after. I just wish it could have happened another way.


-Michelle

"And when I said I'll take it, I meant as is." -Ani DiFranco

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Originally posted by RiversBounty:
FireflyGal, if you honestly feel that strongly, then I don't see why you would go see the film again. Because obviously this has colored your view of it and Joss.

But know that, as many others have pointed out, he does this for several reasons. He kills characters to break people's hearts, he does it to up the stakes, and he does it, usually, to propel a character arc that we may not see until the sequel (I for one, am extremely interested in seeing what place Zoe is in come the sequel, and what new developments will occur with her as a character, as a result of her dealing with losing Wash).

Also know, that it does pain him to do these things, but he does them because they make the story resonate, it gives it power, it sticks with you. He said in the past, that when he decided to kill the character of Tara on BtVS, he actually cried as he told the other writers. His characters are THAT close to him, but you can rant (and it is your right), just don't expect him to apologize. Many Tara fans got mad, and he explained himself, but he didn't apologize or "fix it."

And I understand that it hurts. It's supposed to. He did it for newbies AND us, though. I think his intention was to show newbies--who have seen countless action/sci fi films with no consequences--what kind of storyteller he is. That he has created a world where there are consequences, and people die, and that's a part of what makes "Serenity" different, and in most cases, better than what Hollywood churns out.

One last thing...eight people were entering a dangerous, life threatening situation--destroying their ship's ability to function, and with no means of escaping a larger, ruthless force (unlike, say, War Stories, where they could have fallen back and flown away).

So AT LEAST one person had to die, to make it at all realistic. And it raises the tension so much. Plus if nothing else ever came of it, it was worth it for me just to see Gina play Zoe's small moment of emotional breakdown right before Mal pulls her out of the way of the second harpoon. It was perfect.

If Joss hadn't killed Wash (and Book), he wouldn't be Joss. Besides, people would have died (maybe Wash and Book, maybe not) in the series eventually. Yet like the man says, we'll see them again...

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Originally posted by mindseye:
"...it’s definitely the story I wanted to tell, the way I wanted to tell it." - Joss

That's enough for me. :)

Freedom - Peace - Serenity

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Originally posted by Stroess:
...I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.

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Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Watch this.......

Joss has been playing us with a sick sence of humor

Washs death was a part of some twisted alternate storyline, which of course will be included with the DVD when it come time for that...

Perhaps the same with Book ( Maybe Simon saves him )

With the pre screenings and hype... Joss is having fun with the Browncoats, watching us twist








At least I hope so.....



Soldiers Prayer:

Dear God..... If there is a god

Save my Soul.... If I have a soul

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Originally posted by Stroess:
Just my 2 cents...

I know a lot of people can accept that Wash and Book die without much fuss. I only wish I could do the same. I watched FireFly in order to escape reality. If I needed a fresh dose of death and dying, I only need to look at the news. I was really hoping that Serenity would supply me with a continuation of FireFly and that I could leave the theater happy. Unfortunatly, I don't see how people can leave happy when their favorite characters are dead. I felt like I lost two of my friends when Wash and Book died, and I really have no need to pay any more money to feel that way again.

I had planned on seeing Serenity every week (or at least every other) in order to supply as much support as I could for a sequel. However, I just no longer want to spend my money in order to feel sad. It's just too bad, really.

I definitely respect all of you who are OK with how Serenity turned out. I really wish I could be one of you. Unfortunately, I will just have to hope that if a sequel is created, it will bring me more joy than this one did.

Thanks for listening...

Stroess

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Originally posted by batmarlowe:
I haven't read this thread, but I can't wait to see the movie to find out what it's all about.

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Originally posted by Jadehand:
Hey FFG,
We talked a bit about this at D*C. I'm sorry it looks like things will remain the way they were. As I said then, I hate that it happened too, but it doesn't ruin it for me. As others have brought up, Things were the same with Doyle(in Angel), Tara(in Buffy), and many others. Unfortunately, we got to see the others move on and/or deal with the loss in the following weeks, here we have to wait a couple of years for the sequel.
Now this won't make you feel good, I read somewhere that the crew was originally just 5. Joss later brought it up to 9. I think we were lucky to have all 9 as long as we did, and I half expect to lose 2 more in the next one to bring it down to the original 5. Now I don't know who the original 5 were, but based on the "no happy relationships" thing, I'd guess we may be short a doctor and a companion by the end of 2 or 3.





Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live
"Dreaming the dream that only the sleepless know."

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Originally posted by fireflygal:

I have been lucky enough to see Serenity three times now and I hate it more each time I see it. No, allow me to rephrase that, I hate Joss Whedon more each time I see Serenity. I have heard that same phrase uttered from many other Browncoats, as well, after each preview. I’m calling Joss Whedon out onto the carpet to answer to the fans. Why? Why did you take the sky from us?

We all know what I’m talking about – Book and Wash. There was no reason in the ‘verse for them to die. I don’t care how noble their deaths were. It’s a story; it CAN have a happy ending. All the characters can live through the trilogy. Yes, there will be a trilogy if the Browncoats have any say in the matter and we do. We will see the movie, we will bring friends and repeat numerous times. We will make Fox wish they never cancelled Firefly. I will see it again and again despite what Whedon did; ripping my heart out by killing two of the wonderful characters I had come to love and laugh with.

Rumor has it that all nine cast members are signed for the trilogy but I don’t want flashbacks, the Browncoats don’t want flashbacks. We want nine characters alive and well, (we’ll even take wounded), to move into the future – together – on new adventures.

Does anyone else feel betrayed?

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Originally posted by Shakespeare:


One thing that gets limited discussion in the spoiler threads is just how indestructible the captain is in his final duel with the agent. Here Joss pushes believability to its raggedy edge in the opposite direction of Wash and Book.

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Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
If you don't give "a shit about what you think" then why should we give a shit about what you think?

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Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:

Say it with me F-I-C-T-I-C-I-O-U-S CHAR-ACT-ERS.

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Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.

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Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
I'm the idiot?

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Understood is not spelled understod.

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Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit.

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Originally posted by Phoebe:

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To be fair, it is the right of 'the drones' to think and feel about that any way they want. They feel that it's Joss' creation and he can do anything he likes and that they'll accept it. That's how THEY think and feel.

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Just rebelling against the hypocrisy of them usually thinking its ok they can feel what they want but that others are not allowed. Sure, they are allowed as long as I don't have to hear it ;)

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* Grammar fixed

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You are handy to have around ;)

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net

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Originally posted by FlyingTams:
Yeah know what you mean fireflygal, when I got spoiled by accident it pissed me off no end, and it killed my feelings for Firefly. Its odd, but it died that day, on an enthusiasm scale from 1 to 100, i was at 90 but it dropped to 5 i guess.
I don't hate it, but if there never is another i don't really care. Besides, they all say its not more firefly its a new hybrid (Firefly is dead, long live Serenity).

Of course Joss has oddly enough said we'll see them again if there is a second movie they will both be back, or rather "see them again". Perhap sin flashbacks, who knows, not being Trek I'm not sure his universe is wide enough to have them resurrected again.

Also a note to the drones, who usually go on about how its his creation and he can do anything he likes etc. SHUT UP! I have a right to feel and think about this anyway I want, and I don't give a shit what you feel about it, so shut up already.

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Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
I'm the idiot?

Understood is not spelled understod.

It's"NoW kindly stop writing me". Not "No stop..."

Also,I love the "you and your kind" bit. Nice talk nazi.

As far as a hollow shell without emotion?
FUCK YOU!....I believe that was rage I was feeling.


"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity

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Originally posted by fireflygal:

Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized.

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You don't have to read their replies

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I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better....

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I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.

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We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.

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Originally posted by FlyingTams:

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Originally posted by fireflygal:

Appreciate you being on my side on this one, FlyingTams but please, the "drones" you refer to are still Browncoats. I have not said one nasty thing in any of my replies (I think). I want to keep this conversation civilized.

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Well its your thread fireflygal :)

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You don't have to read their replies

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Good idea ;)

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I think it would have been worse for me if I were spoiled by accident, not that the shock at the theater was much better....

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Not sure what is better, at least now I'm prepared.

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I do have to say, it's still a great movie and I still consider it Firefly, not really some sort of hybrid. Mal's a little darker but Joss had wanted him that way originally.

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I'm sure it will do well. Actually I'm not sure, I guess there is a part of me still hoping it will. But perhaps its just too strange for the audience at large to be exposed to good dialogue.

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We're all Browncoats here let's be peacable about this.

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I'm not, and never were - but I loved Firefly there, for a moment.

Peace is just the interval between wars, best spent preparing for the next.

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Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I agree with you FireflyGal to a large extent - for all the fans that, according to a certain someone, made his making the movie possible, for the fans that have hung in there and waited 2 long years after F*X “killed” all the characters originally, just hoping to see their favorite characters alive on screen again... for them to be repaid by having 2 of those characters killed in the first and possibly only movie... just seems like a shitty way to say thanks.
Wait until the next one to break some hearts, but give those fans something to celebrate with the first one, they really deserve it.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.net]

Thank you, thank you, thank you PB! None of the friends that I know hate what Joss did have posted, so it was rather lonely for a while.

By the way, I love scifiradio (the free version) but it often just stops on me

I aim to misbehave!

Firefly items:
For lapel pins and badge holder lanyards
e-mail FireflyGal1@hotmail.com
www.cafepress.com/fillies
www.cafepress.com/fireflyflan

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Originally posted by DucesTecum:
To FFG from Duces Tecum and Zipply, two original, hardcore, die hard Browncoats who have also been here since DAY ONE.

Duces:

FFG, my fellow coworker and Browncoat buddy Zipply just told me about this thread which is why I haven't been on earlier to say, "You go girl." Zip and I both agree with you completely. I'm not very eloquent but he is and I am going to try to tell you what he said. He made some points I want to share.

We were never Buffy or Angel fans, nor do we worship Joss Whedon. We are Firefly fans and are grateful to him for creating the 'verse.

How many of us would have hung around for the last two years knowing how this movie would turn out (meaning, two of the ensemble, our beloved characters, would be snuffed)? The music that we enjoyed so much in Firefly apparently was not good enough for the movie. The Western aspects, ditto.

Most of this year we have stood around discussing Serenity and making excuses for Joss. "He had to do the things he did to make sure the movie is a hit so we can have two more movies."

Friends I have to say, the more I read about the movie, the more I have to say, "Yup, it's a Buffy in space flick." Firefly is over, two of our BDH's are dead and if Joss is so almighty why didn't he figure out a way to at least keep Book on? I think the thing I hated the most is that I felt, perceived, that Ron Glass NEEDED THE WORK! and Joss cheated him out of gainful employment! Alan Tudyk has so many choices, he's okay and I'm not at all concerned about him even though I hate like hell that Wash is dead.

At this point, the only reason I am going to the movie is because it has been a planned event with many Browncoats for a long time. I positively will not be seeing it a second time.

Zip:

"One thing I liked about our little 'verse was that it was comprised of thoughtful adult types (regardless of actual ages). I fear after the release of the movie, FFF will become chock full of gothic teens saying, "Did you see the way River swung that axe? That was awesome, duuude!" I liked that us original Browncoats were more interested in the way that Book swung that dialogue."

Anyway, we both feel the same way, and are in agreement with you FFG. I'm sure we'll be chastized and criticized but what the hey, we're Browncoats, we're tough and we can take it.


And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
I heard 1 Browncoat say that Joss has the idea for all of them to die, before it's all over. Except maybe River. Who knows? I have not taken time to read through this thread, as I'm sure other such 'nuggets' of joyful speculation have been dropped by other posters.

I'll say this. For the story to work, it makes sense that Book died the way he did. Could it have been done differently ? Hell yes! But I have a feeling this death was a mutual idea. Or I DID think that, before I heard the Ron Glass interview on the Serenity podcast. Now, I don't know.

As for Wash? It seemed as senseless as it was sudden. I had the oppotunity to watch that scene twice, and I still don't see why it had to happen that way. That it HAD to happen, might be less of a story/plot issue and more of a Alan Tudyk / Hollywood actor issue. Contracts and future working availabilty might have forced Joss to do somethin drastic. Again, I have no clue, just my $ 0.02 worth.



" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by Spinland:
Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.

But ....

I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.

I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.

I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.

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I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Originally posted by Retro:
I can't say it any better than these people

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Originally posted by Spinland:
Ya know ... I haven't yet seen the BDM, but I was spoiled about this thanks to a careless click elsewhere. The news hit me like an anvil to the gut.
But ...
I'm a Browncoat, but certainly not a "drone." I'm a cantankerous, skeptical, hard-to-please pain the the ass, who happens to feel near-worship for this thing Joss created--and I pretty much loathe everything else he's done, so that's going some.

I'm still going to give the film a chance. I've heard it makes sense, from Browncoats whose taste and judgement I've granted grudging respect. I've heard from those who've seen it multiple times, and who are still okay with it. I'm prepared to enjoy the hell out of the BDM, shocks and all, be appalled at the moments Joss decided I should be appalled at, and come out of the experience wringing wet and perversely overjoyed at the whole experience.

I'm willing to trust Joss, sonafabitch that he is.

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I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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