GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Major Spoiler and I'm calling Joss out

POSTED BY: FIREFLYGAL
UPDATED: Friday, October 14, 2005 08:37
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Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:28 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
he start-----If you read my first post I was civil.The main point was I was just asking a question.If you read my profile, you know that I love this universe.The anger posts,were immature but I mean seriously how can you take my anger serious when my screen name is NAKEDANDARTICULATE. (insert laugh track here) Bottom line, I just want this film to do well, not just for Joss, or for sequels, or for the actors, or even for the other universe he created-buffster. I want it to do well,because everyone here is a FAN of this universe.It touched something within all of us.It may hurt(I cried at the funeral scene,and when Tara died and when Wes died,and especially when Anya didn't understand death) but it also brought us joy and passion ,wonder and above all hope.So that is all, sorry

"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity


As mom's always say "I don't care who started it" It would be shiny if we can all be nice from here on out. FlyingTams have agreed, to be peaceable, so I think we all can put our Vera's away and play nice together, cause we are Browncoats together! We all want sequels, we all want our BDH's to be a success. We all just didn't like certain things about the moview but that's ok.

I aim to misbehave!

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:31 PM

NAKEDANDARTICULATE


Again,I was kidding with the first part.

"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity

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Thursday, September 15, 2005 3:38 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:
Originally posted by nakedandarticulate:
Again,I was kidding with the first part.



Me too, I just couldn't stop myself...

I aim to misbehave!

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Friday, September 16, 2005 4:08 AM

SPINLAND


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Some love/hate thing you have going for Joss there.

Yeah, guess that's what you'd call it. Can't stand Those Other Shows; the fact he did 'em in my mind is reason to be suspicious of Firefly. Still hard for me to believe it's the same guy. Either it's a blind squirrel finally finding a nut, or I Just Never Got his other stuff. Just as likely the latter, but it doesn't matter: if I don't like it, that settles it.

---------------------------
I didn't do it.
You can't prove it.
The sheep are lying.

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Friday, September 16, 2005 5:37 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


This is sort of a re-post and mix of posts of mine from the "Joss you took the sky from me" post on the Browncoat board over at 'versal.

I'm not all up to date on this thread. I'm not going to read every single message. I'm too damn lazy for that.

I can see why people would be pissed about Book and Wash. I knew Book wouldn't make it out of the movie when I read an interview with Ron Glass who claimed he was just getting too old to do this anymore. Wash? Alan Tudyk is a hot commodity after Dodgeball and I, Robot, so after the fact I wasn't too surprised there either.

I was upset when they killed off Book, not cos he was dead, but because I wouldn't get the rest of his story. I don't know what he whispered to Mal, and I desperately want to know. I understand that his death served as Mal's catalyst to do what had to be done. This is important for the story. Book turns a switch in Mal and without him who knows how things would have ended.

Wash. Let me sidetrack here, I love Joss Whedon's shows because of one simple fact: just as in real life, no one is ever really safe. No one is safe. Buffy died 3 times, Joss killed off Tara and Fred, 2 of his most beloved female characters. Why? because it lead to character development. People need catalysts in their lives. These things are usually big like death. Wash's death was not in vain. Zoe's reaction to it? What did anyone expect? She's a soldier, there will be time for mourning when the fighting is done. I hope there is a sequel cos I know Joss has Zoe's breakdown planned, this was what she needed to lose her faith and find her path. Think about the possibilities for Zoe's character to grow, what if she's pregnant? What if she goes AWOL? What if she just can't handle it? Wash is one of my favorite characters, but I understand Joss' motivation. Part of which was killing Wash to give Zoe emotional development and to make her character more than just this stoic warrior.

Life is fragile, it is so fragile it can disappear in an instant. I know there aren't a lot of Buffy or Angel fans on this thread (that I could gather) but in the final episode of Buffy Joss kills off Anya.. Anya was one of my favorite characters. Her death? Happened in the blink of an eye, I have friends who missed it 2 or even 3 times when watching the finale. There was no fan fare, no slow motion, just a slice and fall and that was it. She was dead. It happened so quick. People threw a fit afterwards saying that she deserved more than that. Why? Because she was a character that you were invested in? Because you want everything to work out and for everyone to have a happy ending? If there is one thing Joss believes in, there are few happy endings, and people's lives rarely are perfect.

Lets look at Buffy & Angel: Characters that died or left: Jenny Calendar (dead) Anya (left & deceased), Tara (dead), Jesse (dead), Oz (permanent leaving), Buffy (at one point left & was dead 3 times), Willow (at one point left) Giles (at one point went back to England), Mrs. Summers (dead), Faith (coma, then left, prison), Angel (sent to hell, then left for own show), Cordelia (left for LA, coma), Wesley (left Buffy, left Angel), Fred (turned into Illyria/dead), Darla (dead, killed by Angel, then staked herself), Spike (dead, exploded), Lindsey (left, dead), Jonathon (dead), Warren (dead), Doyle (dead), Drusilla (left)

That is 21 characters that disappeared from the Buffyverse over 12 seasons (both shows together). That is more than one character per year. Lots of characters die or leave and shows go on.

Now which ones came back (either from the dead or from sabattical, flashbacks, dreams, ect...): Buffy, Giles, Willow, Anya, Oz, Faith, Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Darla (came back 2 different times after death), Spike, Jonathon, Warren, Drusilla, Jenny Calendar

15 Characters that returned. While in Joss's world you may be dead, you are never done and gone.

**Also I thought I should mention, I recently saw an interview with Joss on Australian TV (I think) and he mentioned that should there be a sequel, all 9 cast members are signed on to be in the movie. ALL NINE! So even though they may be dead that doesn't mean their stories end there.

I can respect anyone's opinion, but I just think it's a bit foolish to let this ruin everything for you. It's a movie based on the TV show, it's not the TV show. How do we know that by the end of the season Book wouldn't have been dead? How do we know that Joss didn't plan for other major character death? I mean he wanted 7 seasons of Firefly, by the end of that I can tell you half the original crew would have been left. Because it was drawn out over time would it have been easier to handle? Would you still be as upset about it? Could you handle any character dying?

I don't think Joss wrote this movie for himself or for us, I think Joss wrote this movie for the characters, for the story. That's how writing works. Writing isn't as selfish or altruistic as some suggest (well not always), I think that Joss did it for the universe, for the characters, because he just couldn't let them go. When you write characters you become responisble to tell their tales. He held up his responsibility to the characters, and thus to himself and us.

Book and Wash don't die for nothing. They die to carry on the story. That's what's important. I'm a writer, so I get that. Sometimes you have to do unpopular things to make the story better, to give it a new place to go. I respect that in a world of TV writers and film creators that don't have the balls to take a risk like that. The only other one who does is JJ Abrams, and that's pretty much only on LOST.

So I say thank you Joss, for holding true to how you tell a story. For having the balls to do the unpopular thing, and to do it for the sake of storytelling. Cos that's all I'm after, a good story about characters I can care about. I cared about Book and Wash, but now I can't wait to see what happens to everyone else. Tragedy is what shapes who we are and who we become. And the crew of Serenity? They are becoming..

But that's my opnion. Anyone is free to think otherwise


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Inara: "Do aliens live among us?"
Kaylee: "Yes. One of them's a doctor."

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:02 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I heard 1 Browncoat say that Joss has the idea for all of them to die, before it's all over. Except maybe River. Who knows?
I'd say it's probably likely. It's also probably likely that he may change his mind on one or two of them. This is Joss we're talking about. Just when you think you know what he's doing, he flips it all over on you.
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'll say this. For the story to work, it makes sense that Book died the way he did. Could it have been done differently ? Hell yes! But I have a feeling this death was a mutual idea. Or I DID think that, before I heard the Ron Glass interview on the Serenity podcast. Now, I don't know.
We tried in Minneapolis to get him to tell us who Book was and he refused. One way or the other - barring resurrection, of course - we'll find out who he was and what he was up to. Ron Glass mentioned that he and Joss talked about flashback sequences and the like.
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
As for Wash? It seemed as senseless as it was sudden. I had the oppotunity to watch that scene twice, and I still don't see why it had to happen that way. That it HAD to happen, might be less of a story/plot issue and more of a Alan Tudyk / Hollywood actor issue. Contracts and future working availabilty might have forced Joss to do somethin drastic. Again, I have no clue, just my $ 0.02 worth.
Believe it or not, according to the movie magazine, it was Alan Tudyk's idea. He even approves of how it went down because it adds more realism to the character. It also alludes to the idea that there aren't always happy endings in this version of the 'verse, plus it will give Zoe that much more character development down the road.

Always trust the Joss. That's all I can say.

I draw...therefore I am. http://www.mnartists.org/Nora_Leverson
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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:03 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


Double post!

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:25 AM

THEWANDERINGBARD


Right on BlackEyedGirl! Took the words right out of my mouth. Honestly I excepted somebody to die, and let’s face it, if you’re a serious Joss fan; everybody knows that just when you think things are safe, when the happy ending is coming, Joss robs you of that. It so that you do exactly what your doing now.
A writer writes to make people feel emotions, that’s why we love this show, is because the emotions Joss fills us with. We cry at the end of "The Message," Early gives us the creeps, and as we watch Serenity be torn to pieces, we cringe and only exhale when it stops. I almost cried at Wash and Book's deaths (I DON'T CRY, the only movie that can make me weepy is Big Fish at the very end), I loved them both, but their deaths mean so much more. Mal is a different person now, River is the pilot (who knew she could fly), SIMON AND KAYLEE FINALY GOT TOGETHER (which I've been waiting for since the show got started), Inara is back (and I saw the making of the love story between her and Mal getting started).

The happy ending is there folks, Joss gave us what we wanted, and we said we'd follow him and trust our BDM in his hands. Well it's still in his hands, so let’s go be Box Office maniacs and get two more movies so we can see the rest of this crazy vision of the future.


KAYLEE: So how come you don't care where you're going?
BOOK: 'Cause how you get there is the worthier part.

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Friday, September 16, 2005 7:34 AM

THRAWN


The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.

And, BlackEyedGirl, you said it *perfectly*.

Serenity is better than I even thought it could be. I have no complaints at all. I'm sorry for those who feel differently, but for me...man. It didn't just make me "feel sad", or be depressed, it made me feel every punch, every explosion, every bounce of Serenity as she crashed, every gunshot, every slice or stab, as if it were happening to me. I wasn't watching the movie, I was inside it. I've never in my life experienced ANY form of entertainment that engrossing and affecting. The lack of a happy ending is a small price to pay indeed.

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Friday, September 16, 2005 8:38 AM

MINDSEYE


Question: You don't need help. Im surprised noone has brought this up unless I've missed talk on the boards, but why Wash? As a character, you know, why-why Wash? I mean, I just shrunk back into my seat and asked "Why?!" I mean --

JOSS: - I think you just answered your own question. Not for shock value, but for emotional value. What it would do to you emotionally. And for River and Mal, who are basically the crux of the film, still to be able to, you know call this a happy ending, there was no way I could just let people walk away. It wouldn't be right for the movie and quite frankly-- its me guys. But Wash is not only someone everybody loves, but he is somebody you wouldn't think of as a fighter, youre not looking for him to go. So when he does, it means at that point, everybody is on the table. And thats what makes it exciting

http://www.serenitymovie.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=766

Freedom - Peace - Serenity

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Friday, September 16, 2005 3:31 PM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.


Actually Thrawn I keep repeating my self for the new people that post and don't feel like catching up on everything. So I repeat my original statement basically so they know where I was coming from. By the way, I have a partial answer. I have many other questions that surround the why that have not been answered. I didn't mean my question to sound so simple as to just "why". There are several "why" tangents I would like to examine but it was easier just to say "why" in the threads So now you understand I don't have my whole answer and perhaps you won't mind if I continue to ask "why". Perhaps I can change it to "why + tangents" for you. Yeah, I'm a sarcastic Browncoat sometimes.

I aim to misbehave!

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Friday, September 16, 2005 6:22 PM

DREWKIM1


Hi, new here. Well, on the board, but a long time, Buffy/Angel/Firefly fan. So, obviously, I am a Joss Whedon follower. Anyways... I was looking through buffy.nu and I came through this...

Questioner:: There’s been alot of speculation as to the reasons for Alan’s ’lack of sequel opportunity’ shall we say? Are you able to confirm or deny or speculate?

JOSS: I can do all of those things. I have always... *hated* Alan. He’s just not funny. Im looking for funny and he’s just not there for me. No, he is... the character if Wash - as some of you may have noticed - a corpse, but that is not because he is not going to be in the sequel. In fact, if there were a sequel I can say, without hesitation that he infact would be in it. And not in a cheesy twin brother way. I can’t stress that enough.


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Saturday, September 17, 2005 5:20 PM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.


Actually Thrawn I keep repeating my self for the new people that post and don't feel like catching up on everything. So I repeat my original statement basically so they know where I was coming from. By the way, I have a partial answer. I have many other questions that surround the why that have not been answered. I didn't mean my question to sound so simple as to just "why". There are several "why" tangents I would like to examine but it was easier just to say "why" in the threads So now you understand I don't have my whole answer and perhaps you won't mind if I continue to ask "why". Perhaps I can change it to "why + tangents" for you. Yeah, I'm a sarcastic Browncoat sometimes.

I aim to misbehave!


For future reference, ffg, I think the problem is that this whole thread comes off as a game of "Whack-a-mole", which, frankly, gets really old.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Saturday, September 17, 2005 9:01 PM

COMMANDERADAMA


I'm terribly disappointed with Serenity. I looked forward to it since I first heard it was coming out, but I stumbled upon the spoiler that two main characters were going to die, and out of curiosity I just had to find out who, and I did. Now I'm not going to see the movie in the theater. This was a mistake. As far as I'm concerned Firefly died when the series was canceled. People have said that we owe Joss. Nope, not true at all. He owes us. Fans were the ones who kept it going for the time it did and who caused a movie to happen, sure Joss wrote the story, etc., but that wouldn't have happened if fans hadn't shown support and now to kill characters. Oh heck no. Some have said it adds to realism. I don't agree - um - the Earth is gone, they live on a space ship, not so real right? No. You DON'T need to kill off a character. That's cliche is series and movies now. Who doesn't do it? If I wanted realism I'd step out the door. I hope that there are no more movies after this one. What'd be the point. I don't support that, or this movie. It's not Firefly. Remember Firefly. Yeah - there were shootings and close calls, but it was fun and our people got away in the end. All in all I think Joss was wrong. And he needs to realize that. If people support this then it's only going to make Hollywood think that y'know it's alright to kill off the good guys. I wouldn't accept this movie. You're just saying that well, okay, you didn't do it right, but I'll take it. I'm not going to. Unless they do it right (which I know won't happen) Firefly died for me when it was cancelled.

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Saturday, September 17, 2005 10:21 PM

SWEETESTHAT


I'd like to agree with FireflyGirl, Stroess, Wibbled, PizmoBeach, FlyingTams and CommanderAdama on this one (even if that puts me in the minority--heaven knows I'm used to it by now). I got spoiled by accident, and knowing that Wash is going to die just about broke my heart. In fact, I'm highly tempted to skip the movie now (but I won't.)

It's true that killing off characters does up the excitement level of a film. It's true that in such a dangerous and deadly situation, it may be ridiculous to expect everyone to survive. It's true that Joss tends to disrupt happy relationships, and almost no-one is safe on his shows. It's all true, and I guess I'm glad to see so many people are pleased by his work.

All these truisms just don't work for me, though.

How many times in all the episodes of Firefly did crew members get shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten mercilessly, electroshocked, asphyxiated, put into chemically-induced comas, punched, and generally mistreated-- and survive? So, it's not so unusual that some of us thought the people we've come to know and love would all make it.

I also don't buy the notion that the only way to truly grab an audience is to kill someone. Firefly grabbed us all without killing main characters. Even though I kinda knew Mal would live through "Out Of Gas," I was still riveted to the screen, wondering what would happen next, and how he'd get out of it. Sure, death raises the stakes; but I feel Joss and Crew are so incredibly talented writers, they could have made the plot exciting in other, non-lethal ways.

And yes, Joss has a history of killing off some very beloved characters. I'm a devotee of both Buffy and Angel, so I'm quite familiar with the list. But... if I'm going to lose a character who's become dear to my heart, I'd like it at least to be something meaningful. Tara died, but it was for a purpose-- to move the story along so Willow would become the Big Bad. Anya died fighting to protect others and destroy evil. So did Doyle, Cordy, Wesley and Gunn-- all of them died making a difference. Maybe that's why I'm not so upset about Book's passing-- he went out fighting. But for Wash to die out of sheer bad luck strikes me as empty, meaningless, and unfulfilling. It's something lesser script-writers have used so much it's become a cliche-- something to jerk the audience around. I really did expect better than such manipulation from Joss and Serenity.

And yes, death is realistic. But don't we watch TV and movies to get away from reality for a while? We've all known pain, suffering and loss in the Real World. Real happy endings don't exist. Life's not like that. Well, I don't watch movies to see life in all its tragedy. I see movies to release tension, not cause it. I see movies to be happy, not heartbroken. I'm a fairly new Browncoat, but I've been looking forward to Sept. 30th with great anticipation... and now, I'm just not. Is it too much to have a happy ending, just once?

The argument's been made that "they're Joss's toys and he can break them if he wants to." And he's got a history of playing rough. He doesn't owe us anything, we all should have known better... Yes, yes, yes, yada yada yada. But when a series shifts so quickly from playful Firefly to deadly Serenity, it's hard not to question, or feel some sort of disappointment-- that "rug has been pulled out from under us" feeling, to borrow that clever phrase . It's not so much a criticism of Joss, as it is our deep involvement with and love for the characters. If we didn't love Book and Wash so much-- if Joss & Co. hadn't done such a magnificent job creating them in the first place-- then none of us would be so upset. So we question, and complain, and cry, and demand answers that will somehow lessen the pain. Joss put in those deaths to get a reaction, after all...

And even though I'm upset, I'm still planning on seeing the movie at least once (and if I can stand the heartbreak, more than once) just to support Joss and let him tell his stories. But knowing what I know, I'm not going to enjoy it as much as I'd hoped... unless there will truly be some sort of alternative twist-thingy in future movies, and then I'll be just fine.

So if this is Serenity Valley... cover me, I'm going for the big gun. Who's with me?


KAYLEE: "I think it's the Sweetest Hat ever."


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Sunday, September 18, 2005 3:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:
Believe it or not, according to the movie magazine, it was Alan Tudyk's idea. He even approves of how it went down because it adds more realism to the character. It also alludes to the idea that there aren't always happy endings in this version of the 'verse, plus it will give Zoe that much more character development down the road.



Well, then it seems I was 1/2 right. Wash saves everyone and as a result, dies a quick and horrific death. That Alan was to be written out seems to be an Hollywood/actor thing. That Alan approved the idea or even came up with it, isn't so much a big deal for me. But to the idea that there aren't always happy endings....how about there being ANY happy ones? Sheesh!

( Grappling scene between unnamed doctors and mechanics, not withstanding )

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 3:59 AM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:
Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
The thing that bothers me about this thread, ffg, is your continued insistence on an explanation, when several have already been provided. If they aren't sufficient, I'm sorry, but the reasons it happened are all here.


Actually Thrawn I keep repeating my self for the new people that post and don't feel like catching up on everything. So I repeat my original statement basically so they know where I was coming from. By the way, I have a partial answer. I have many other questions that surround the why that have not been answered. I didn't mean my question to sound so simple as to just "why". There are several "why" tangents I would like to examine but it was easier just to say "why" in the threads So now you understand I don't have my whole answer and perhaps you won't mind if I continue to ask "why". Perhaps I can change it to "why + tangents" for you. Yeah, I'm a sarcastic Browncoat sometimes.

I aim to misbehave!


For future reference, ffg, I think the problem is that this whole thread comes off as a game of "Whack-a-mole", which, frankly, gets really old.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.



Doesn't seem like a game of whack-a-mole to the other fans that are still pouring their hearts out over Joss's decisions. There's no one twisting your arm to read this post but I'm still enjoying the heck out of it, especially since more folks have appeared that also believe Joss took the sky from us.

I aim to misbehave!

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:06 AM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:
Originally posted by CommanderAdama:
I'm terribly disappointed with Serenity. I looked forward to it since I first heard it was coming out, but I stumbled upon the spoiler that two main characters were going to die, and out of curiosity I just had to find out who, and I did. Now I'm not going to see the movie in the theater. This was a mistake. As far as I'm concerned Firefly died when the series was canceled. People have said that we owe Joss. Nope, not true at all. He owes us. Fans were the ones who kept it going for the time it did and who caused a movie to happen, sure Joss wrote the story, etc., but that wouldn't have happened if fans hadn't shown support and now to kill characters. Oh heck no. Some have said it adds to realism. I don't agree - um - the Earth is gone, they live on a space ship, not so real right? No. You DON'T need to kill off a character. That's cliche is series and movies now. Who doesn't do it? If I wanted realism I'd step out the door. I hope that there are no more movies after this one. What'd be the point. I don't support that, or this movie. It's not Firefly. Remember Firefly. Yeah - there were shootings and close calls, but it was fun and our people got away in the end. All in all I think Joss was wrong. And he needs to realize that. If people support this then it's only going to make Hollywood think that y'know it's alright to kill off the good guys. I wouldn't accept this movie. You're just saying that well, okay, you didn't do it right, but I'll take it. I'm not going to. Unless they do it right (which I know won't happen) Firefly died for me when it was cancelled.


I agree, he didn't have to kill off characters to make it real, but I believe you may enjoy the movie anyway. I'm not happy but, what's done is done and I still think maybe we should support the actors and Universal. It really is still Firefly, CommanderAdama. I'm sure Joss realizes that many fans are unhappy, if we all support Serenity maybe he'll somehow make amends in the next one. If you hadn't read about the spoilers, you'd have gone to see it at least once, right?

I aim to misbehave!

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 4:08 AM

FIREFLYGAL


Quote:
Originally posted by SweetestHat:
I'd like to agree with FireflyGirl, Stroess, Wibbled, PizmoBeach, FlyingTams and CommanderAdama on this one (even if that puts me in the minority--heaven knows I'm used to it by now). I got spoiled by accident, and knowing that Wash is going to die just about broke my heart. In fact, I'm highly tempted to skip the movie now (but I won't.)

It's true that killing off characters does up the excitement level of a film. It's true that in such a dangerous and deadly situation, it may be ridiculous to expect everyone to survive. It's true that Joss tends to disrupt happy relationships, and almost no-one is safe on his shows. It's all true, and I guess I'm glad to see so many people are pleased by his work.

All these truisms just don't work for me, though.

How many times in all the episodes of Firefly did crew members get shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten mercilessly, electroshocked, asphyxiated, put into chemically-induced comas, punched, and generally mistreated-- and survive? So, it's not so unusual that some of us thought the people we've come to know and love would all make it.

I also don't buy the notion that the only way to truly grab an audience is to kill someone. Firefly grabbed us all without killing main characters. Even though I kinda knew Mal would live through "Out Of Gas," I was still riveted to the screen, wondering what would happen next, and how he'd get out of it. Sure, death raises the stakes; but I feel Joss and Crew are so incredibly talented writers, they could have made the plot exciting in other, non-lethal ways.

And yes, Joss has a history of killing off some very beloved characters. I'm a devotee of both Buffy and Angel, so I'm quite familiar with the list. But... if I'm going to lose a character who's become dear to my heart, I'd like it at least to be something meaningful. Tara died, but it was for a purpose-- to move the story along so Willow would become the Big Bad. Anya died fighting to protect others and destroy evil. So did Doyle, Cordy, Wesley and Gunn-- all of them died making a difference. Maybe that's why I'm not so upset about Book's passing-- he went out fighting. But for Wash to die out of sheer bad luck strikes me as empty, meaningless, and unfulfilling. It's something lesser script-writers have used so much it's become a cliche-- something to jerk the audience around. I really did expect better than such manipulation from Joss and Serenity.

And yes, death is realistic. But don't we watch TV and movies to get away from reality for a while? We've all known pain, suffering and loss in the Real World. Real happy endings don't exist. Life's not like that. Well, I don't watch movies to see life in all its tragedy. I see movies to release tension, not cause it. I see movies to be happy, not heartbroken. I'm a fairly new Browncoat, but I've been looking forward to Sept. 30th with great anticipation... and now, I'm just not. Is it too much to have a happy ending, just once?

The argument's been made that "they're Joss's toys and he can break them if he wants to." And he's got a history of playing rough. He doesn't owe us anything, we all should have known better... Yes, yes, yes, yada yada yada. But when a series shifts so quickly from playful Firefly to deadly Serenity, it's hard not to question, or feel some sort of disappointment-- that "rug has been pulled out from under us" feeling, to borrow that clever phrase . It's not so much a criticism of Joss, as it is our deep involvement with and love for the characters. If we didn't love Book and Wash so much-- if Joss & Co. hadn't done such a magnificent job creating them in the first place-- then none of us would be so upset. So we question, and complain, and cry, and demand answers that will somehow lessen the pain. Joss put in those deaths to get a reaction, after all...

And even though I'm upset, I'm still planning on seeing the movie at least once (and if I can stand the heartbreak, more than once) just to support Joss and let him tell his stories. But knowing what I know, I'm not going to enjoy it as much as I'd hoped... unless there will truly be some sort of alternative twist-thingy in future movies, and then I'll be just fine.

So if this is Serenity Valley... cover me, I'm going for the big gun. Who's with me?


KAYLEE: "I think it's the Sweetest Hat ever."



Well said SweetestHat and you know I'm with you!

I aim to misbehave!

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 7:58 AM

NOSADSEVEN


Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Quote:
Originally posted by nosadseven:
Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
......


......


For future reference, ffg, I think the problem is that this whole thread comes off as a game of "Whack-a-mole", which, frankly, gets really old.



Doesn't seem like a game of whack-a-mole to the other fans that are still pouring their hearts out over Joss's decisions. There's no one twisting your arm to read this post but I'm still enjoying the heck out of it, especially since more folks have appeared that also believe Joss took the sky from us.

I aim to misbehave!

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*WHACK!*

(*rubs head and crawls back under ground*)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 10:29 AM

THRAWN


Commanderadama, Sweetesthat, one reccomendation.

Please, please go see the movie before passing judgement.

My friend and I, for the third preview screening this summer, took my friend's mom with us, as she adored the show as much as we did. We'd already seen the second showing this time, and my friend (not being the most subtle creature in the universe) accidentally let it slip that a character died. He sorta tried to take it back, but it was out there. His mom basically said if anyone died, she would be so mad she wouldn't go see any sequels or anything ever again.

Her FIRST WORDS after the end of the movie were "I can't wait for the next one."

There's a HUGE difference in the concept and the execution, and until you see the film you have NO IDEA how well it's used. And, also, how do YOU know that Wash's death isn't for some larger purpose? I mean, Buffy's mom's death seemed kinda pointless in the episode The Body, but for the rest of the season motivated a huge arc. We don't have the huge arc yet - that's next movie. Of COURSE the death will be important - Zoe's story next film is something that I'm sure will be absolutely incredible, and the last scene of the movie already has a surprising character development as a result of Wash's death that I guarantee you won't expect.

Also, you're making one other mistake in your reasoning - you're assuming that the movie is just another episode. Let me explain. If Wash had died in War Stories, in the same way he dies in Serenity, it would have been cheap. It would have been wrong. I would have had all the problems you do here. The movie is approximately 100x as intense and danger-ful as War Stories. It is completely impossible to explain how much more urgent and powerful the film is...you just have to see it. It's not that Joss uses Wash's death as a technique to drive up the tension so he didn't have to use others...he uses all the others, too. And the situation, the movie as a whole, both needs and justifies all of them.

I mean, the death isn't going to work for everyone, as ffg's vociferous, repetitive posts continue to drive home on a regular basis. But if all you know is that Wash dies, that's very different from knowing the circumstances surrounding it, and the results of it. In MY opinion, they more than justify it, they make it absolutely necessary for the movie to work.

Please see it and make up your own mind.

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 1:49 PM

ASA


I just want to echo Thrawn's setiment:

I understand why people who have been spoiled are mad. That's why I hate spoilers, they tell you part of the story, but don't let you see it in context.

What I don't understand is the people who said: I "heard something about the movie that I hate, so I'm not going to see the movie". No matter what you think you know, please go see the movie and judge it yourself. Afterwards feel free to hate it and argue about why it sucked as much as you want. But don't judge a movie based a spoiler.

No matter what happens, I bet there is at least one small part of Serenity you will enjoy. I'd hate for you to miss it just becuase of you disliked something you thought you knew, becuase until you see the movie, all you know is heresay.

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 5:35 PM

ZOIC


Well, from what I heard from Joss, Wash wasn't going to survive beyond season 2 of the series and the movie represents what was going to be the season 2 finale. So, Wash's death was planed before the series was even cancelled.

Book being Mal's mentor and father figure was an obvious character to die at some stage in the series as well and Book would have been the hardest character to write into a movie series. I think that the death of the two characters was done as a kind of transition from TV series to movie series.

It could have been worse, before I saw the movie somebody posted on a message board that Kaylee died. But even that wouldn't have stopped me from enjoying what is an absolutely awesome movie.

http://www.galacticastation.com

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 6:00 PM

COMMANDERADAMA


Quote:
Originally posted by fireflygal:
Quote:
Originally posted by CommanderAdama:
I'm terribly disappointed with Serenity. I looked forward to it since I first heard it was coming out, but I stumbled upon the spoiler that two main characters were going to die, and out of curiosity I just had to find out who, and I did. Now I'm not going to see the movie in the theater. This was a mistake. As far as I'm concerned Firefly died when the series was canceled. People have said that we owe Joss. Nope, not true at all. He owes us. Fans were the ones who kept it going for the time it did and who caused a movie to happen, sure Joss wrote the story, etc., but that wouldn't have happened if fans hadn't shown support and now to kill characters. Oh heck no. Some have said it adds to realism. I don't agree - um - the Earth is gone, they live on a space ship, not so real right? No. You DON'T need to kill off a character. That's cliche is series and movies now. Who doesn't do it? If I wanted realism I'd step out the door. I hope that there are no more movies after this one. What'd be the point. I don't support that, or this movie. It's not Firefly. Remember Firefly. Yeah - there were shootings and close calls, but it was fun and our people got away in the end. All in all I think Joss was wrong. And he needs to realize that. If people support this then it's only going to make Hollywood think that y'know it's alright to kill off the good guys. I wouldn't accept this movie. You're just saying that well, okay, you didn't do it right, but I'll take it. I'm not going to. Unless they do it right (which I know won't happen) Firefly died for me when it was cancelled.


I agree, he didn't have to kill off characters to make it real, but I believe you may enjoy the movie anyway. I'm not happy but, what's done is done and I still think maybe we should support the actors and Universal. It really is still Firefly, CommanderAdama. I'm sure Joss realizes that many fans are unhappy, if we all support Serenity maybe he'll somehow make amends in the next one. If you hadn't read about the spoilers, you'd have gone to see it at least once, right?

I aim to misbehave!

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I do plan to see Serenity. In someways I want to boycott it, but when I see the previews I generally shout out "Yeah!" But knowing that they kill characters, my thinking is going to be the same afterwards, about the characters. Other things I have read about the movie (Non-spoilers about clothing and sets) have turned me off of it. They souped it up for the big screen. All in all I'm going to see the movie. I won't like the death of the characters. In fact I'll hate it. Seeing it in context won't change anything. Even if they had done it in Season Two I would hate it and not want to watch it. Besides the deaths, the movie may rock, I don't know. I'll have to see. I also hope he does something with all the characters in the next installments. And not just in the form of flashbacks. But otherwise, I'm done with Joss Whedon.

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Sunday, September 18, 2005 9:33 PM

THRAWN


So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.

The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."

Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?

1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.

2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.

So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.

Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.

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Monday, September 19, 2005 2:34 AM

DUCESTECUM


Quote:
Originally posted by SweetestHat:
I'd like to agree with FireflyGirl, Stroess, Wibbled, PizmoBeach, FlyingTams and CommanderAdama on this one (even if that puts me in the minority--heaven knows I'm used to it by now). I got spoiled by accident, and knowing that Wash is going to die just about broke my heart. In fact, I'm highly tempted to skip the movie now (but I won't.)

It's true that killing off characters does up the excitement level of a film. It's true that in such a dangerous and deadly situation, it may be ridiculous to expect everyone to survive. It's true that Joss tends to disrupt happy relationships, and almost no-one is safe on his shows. It's all true, and I guess I'm glad to see so many people are pleased by his work.

All these truisms just don't work for me, though.

How many times in all the episodes of Firefly did crew members get shot, stabbed, sliced, beaten mercilessly, electroshocked, asphyxiated, put into chemically-induced comas, punched, and generally mistreated-- and survive? So, it's not so unusual that some of us thought the people we've come to know and love would all make it.

I also don't buy the notion that the only way to truly grab an audience is to kill someone. Firefly grabbed us all without killing main characters. Even though I kinda knew Mal would live through "Out Of Gas," I was still riveted to the screen, wondering what would happen next, and how he'd get out of it. Sure, death raises the stakes; but I feel Joss and Crew are so incredibly talented writers, they could have made the plot exciting in other, non-lethal ways.

And yes, Joss has a history of killing off some very beloved characters. I'm a devotee of both Buffy and Angel, so I'm quite familiar with the list. But... if I'm going to lose a character who's become dear to my heart, I'd like it at least to be something meaningful. Tara died, but it was for a purpose-- to move the story along so Willow would become the Big Bad. Anya died fighting to protect others and destroy evil. So did Doyle, Cordy, Wesley and Gunn-- all of them died making a difference. Maybe that's why I'm not so upset about Book's passing-- he went out fighting. But for Wash to die out of sheer bad luck strikes me as empty, meaningless, and unfulfilling. It's something lesser script-writers have used so much it's become a cliche-- something to jerk the audience around. I really did expect better than such manipulation from Joss and Serenity.

And yes, death is realistic. But don't we watch TV and movies to get away from reality for a while? We've all known pain, suffering and loss in the Real World. Real happy endings don't exist. Life's not like that. Well, I don't watch movies to see life in all its tragedy. I see movies to release tension, not cause it. I see movies to be happy, not heartbroken. I'm a fairly new Browncoat, but I've been looking forward to Sept. 30th with great anticipation... and now, I'm just not. Is it too much to have a happy ending, just once?

The argument's been made that "they're Joss's toys and he can break them if he wants to." And he's got a history of playing rough. He doesn't owe us anything, we all should have known better... Yes, yes, yes, yada yada yada. But when a series shifts so quickly from playful Firefly to deadly Serenity, it's hard not to question, or feel some sort of disappointment-- that "rug has been pulled out from under us" feeling, to borrow that clever phrase . It's not so much a criticism of Joss, as it is our deep involvement with and love for the characters. If we didn't love Book and Wash so much-- if Joss & Co. hadn't done such a magnificent job creating them in the first place-- then none of us would be so upset. So we question, and complain, and cry, and demand answers that will somehow lessen the pain. Joss put in those deaths to get a reaction, after all...

And even though I'm upset, I'm still planning on seeing the movie at least once (and if I can stand the heartbreak, more than once) just to support Joss and let him tell his stories. But knowing what I know, I'm not going to enjoy it as much as I'd hoped... unless there will truly be some sort of alternative twist-thingy in future movies, and then I'll be just fine.

So if this is Serenity Valley... cover me, I'm going for the big gun. Who's with me?


KAYLEE: "I think it's the Sweetest Hat ever."



Sweetesthat, I just wanted to say I agree with you TOTALLY!

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Monday, September 19, 2005 2:48 AM

DUCESTECUM


Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.

The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."

Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?

1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.

2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.

So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.

Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.


You have made your point several times but as FFG has already said there are many people in this thread that agree with her and you don't have to like it and no one is twisting your arm to read it. So why do you feel you have to continue making an argument against those of us who do hate what happened? We may be in disagreement with you but we have a right to feel the way we do. I have said earlier that I have been here since DAY ONE. I have gone through all of the pain and suffering that the rest of you have endured with the series, etc. I have a right to my opinion and if you are so unhappy with the way we feel why can't you let us commiserate in peace and go on your own way. You don't have to be rude because we are in a disagreement, just leave us alone.

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job

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Monday, September 19, 2005 4:07 AM

MIKEYMO


Quote:
So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.


Word word word.

Quote:
Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell


This is pretty much what it much boils down to. Well said.

"Be ashamed to die before you have scored some victory for humanity." -- Horace Mann

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Monday, September 19, 2005 4:12 AM

NAKEDANDARTICULATE


Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
So, this thread is about people getting mad that Joss killed Wash. There are lots of other issues flying around, about realism and such, but those are not as I see it the heart of the matter. We can fling justifications and descriptions of our emotional states at each other for 150 more posts, and nothing will change.

The heart of the argument here is "Wash is dead and that shouldn't be true, and Joss needs to be held accountable for this error in judgement."

Towards this end, let's just get two things clear, shall we?

1) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN JOSS OWES YOU AN EXPLANATION FOR IT. He did this movie the best way he could, and since it was a movie, he had as much time and space as he needed to get it perfect. This is the best story he could tell. You can tell, reading from the Visual Guide, that he agonized over EVERY WORD. He did his royal best, and then more again on top of that. You can't fault him for that, you just can't. Period.

2) JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE FANBASE DOESN'T EITHER. As a point of fact, the majority of the fanbase would agree that killing Wash was necessary. More people in this thread approve than are mad, and SUBSTANTIALLY more people who have actually SEEN the movie approve than are mad.

So I'm sorry that you're pissed off, but you need to stop with this "Joss needs to realize..." crap. He made a hard decision that was the best one he could make in his own head, and that most people agree with. Doesn't take away your right to disagree, or to stop watching his stuff, I'm not saying that. It just doesn't make him a bad person, and it doesn't mean he's cheating the fans as a whole.

Let me put it this way. Joss owed *THE FANBASE* the best story he could tell, and *THE FANBASE* loves it, in general. Joss owes *YOU PERSONALLY* no more than the fact that the previous sentence is true.










ABSADOODLE!

"It's about how much freedom you can take away from somebody before they either fold or fight," Whedon says. "It's about the right to be wrong and the nature of human beings, that they need the freedom to be wrong. That they cannot be made to be better or perfect."--Joss Whedon on Serenity

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Monday, September 19, 2005 9:07 AM

THRAWN


Quote:
Originally posted by DucesTecum:
You have made your point several times but as FFG has already said there are many people in this thread that agree with her and you don't have to like it and no one is twisting your arm to read it. So why do you feel you have to continue making an argument against those of us who do hate what happened? We may be in disagreement with you but we have a right to feel the way we do. I have said earlier that I have been here since DAY ONE. I have gone through all of the pain and suffering that the rest of you have endured with the series, etc. I have a right to my opinion and if you are so unhappy with the way we feel why can't you let us commiserate in peace and go on your own way. You don't have to be rude because we are in a disagreement, just leave us alone.

And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an over-abundance of schooling. Mal, Train Job


I'm sorry; I thought I was being clear. I do disagree with you, but I'm not arguing that anymore, I acknowledged in my previous post that was getting nowhere.

My last post was to say that even if you disagree, it doesn't mean Joss is evil or bad, or Joss owes you anything more than what he gave. You can dislike the movie all you want; I've realized, much as I may want to, I can't dissuade anyone from that. It's the rest that still bothers me.

But to answer your first question, I kept posting because I LOVE this movie, more than anything else I've EVER seen. I feel so strongly about it that I was trying to do everything I could to help other people have the same experience I did. If it made you mad, I'm deeply sorry; I've stopped now anyhow.

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Monday, September 19, 2005 10:58 AM

CERENITY


Well...the answer to your questions, "Why", should be apparent based on the number of responses to the topic. No one who has seen the movie is "happy" that Wash is gone. EVERYONE would like to know more about Book.

What makes Joss' writing so powerful is the emotional value of his characters and what they mean to the audience. You wouldn't have become so attached during Firefly if he had given you any less than he did. And with a shorter, more intense dose of the 'verse in the form of a movie, comes the reality that life in the black is dangerous, and that consequences can't be stretched out over the next 5 hours of show. They need to be immediate, and in some cases they NEED to be brutal. You wouldn't be as emotional about this film if no one died. You may have had a bit of a skip to your step, but that wouldn't be true to the nature of the story. And I feel that this story was more important to me because it made me feel so strongly. Feeling something so strongly, even if it is negative, is a real gift. frankly there are too many apathetic souls out there, and empathy is lost as a whole, unfortunately. But this emotion is so potent, and that only comes once in a while.

Now, it is up to the individual to decide if that is the kind of entertainment you want. Many folks only want a happy ending, and to feel good at the end of the day. That is your choice. But to deny the sadness also weakens the beauty.

I don't think that Joss betrayed us. I think that he treated us like the intelligent fanbase that we are. We have always been treated like his accelerated pupils, and sometimes life's lessons are hard. But it is through these darknesses that the light shines so brightly.

I can understand people who have seen the movie and are so sad they become mad, but what I cannot stand for is people who haven't seen the movie and won't because of the spoilers. That makes me very irate and makes me believe you didn't "get it" in the first place. My answer to that is "no loss". I will be seeing it enough for those few, anyway.

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Monday, September 19, 2005 11:49 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL


Quote:
Originally posted by Cerenity:
I don't think that Joss betrayed us. I think that he treated us like the intelligent fanbase that we are. We have always been treated like his accelerated pupils, and sometimes life's lessons are hard. But it is through these darknesses that the light shines so brightly.


Amen, Cerenity! Very well stated. I would just like to add a quote from Joss from several years ago:

"I do not give the audience what they want - I give the audience what they need."



"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Monday, September 19, 2005 12:36 PM

XHANDSOFBLUE


1) There is no excuse for you to threaten someone's life just because he is killing off two of your characters. You are drifting into a real life felony here.

2) Joss loves to shake things up. Consider yourself shaken. Okay, this isn't the real world. In the real world when people fight, people die. And it is A LOT worse than in the movies. This ain't Star Wars.

One of the things I always admired about Joss was his decisions to kill off a main character. Only in this 'verse, they won't be coming back to life.

3) If the movie is a BIG hit. Say >$200 million. There is no way Firefly/Serenity will ever return to the small screen, since the actors would have to take too much of a pay cut. That means subsequent movies. Joss has already said he is likely to produce the pre-quells which are out as comic books since he has already sketched them out. That means Books is back for at least one movie (I haven't read the comic books, so how extensive he is in it, I know not. Second, Wash is back.)

So chill, and keep the secrets contained within this movie so others can be surprised.

In war, truth is the first casualty. -- Aeschylus.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote! Benjamin Franklin, 1759

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Monday, September 19, 2005 1:10 PM

FIREFLYGAL


I think the two things we all agree on is to disagree AND that those who saw Serenity think it was a great movie (regardless of whether we were happy with certain parts). I do agree with everyone who mentioned that those who hate the movie and don't want to see it based on what they've heard, should still go see it and show support and judge it as a WHOLE movie, then still be pissed that Book and Wash died.



I aim to misbehave!

Firefly items:
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Monday, September 19, 2005 2:42 PM

ZIPPLY


Maybe my new personal tagline for Joss is "He has done the unthinkable, and that makes me whiny." I fell in love with Nine. Nine, not Seven of Nine (although "Seven of Nine" in Star Trek was a total hottie. But I digress.). So yeah, part of my frustration is the loss of two of the ensemble.

But another part of my frustration is my perception of a shift from the homey, ambling, aged, earth-tones flavor of Firefly into the buzzing driven imminent steeliness of Serenity. Where I felt Firefly to be very 'Yin,' Serenity feels quite 'Yang.' (I'm basing this off of how 'Versal has chosen to promote in the trailers.) To some extent it is the nature of the medium: first-shot movies supposedly don't lend as well to 'ambling' as tv does. But that doesn't change for me that Firefly and Serenity have very different, umm, timbres.


Anybody else out there who is still following this thread is either a glutton for punishment, or like me is enjoying the (generally) respectful exchange of ideas and emotions on this subject. So for whomever is still on this ride, mind if I pose a question for you?. This'll call for very cold detachment and, for those who've already seen Serenity, you gotta pretend like it was never made. We'll all keep this civil and fun, hopefully?

Step back to just after the tv show ended, and tell me:

If YOU had to write a movie to follow the tv show, and you HAD to choose TWO of the nine to kill off in YOUR own way,
Which two would you choose to kill?

I'll go first. I'da chosen Kaylee because she does not drive any of the main story arcs, and I'da chosen Doc Simon because the crew could take over on the nurturing behavior (medical skills notwithstanding). Maybe make both of 'em both go out together in some sort of romantic "lovers' leap."

Anyone else wanna engage in this morbid and creepifying speculation with me? Like this thread, no right or wrong answers.



zipply
(Lurker, generally speaking. I'm known to some.)

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Monday, September 19, 2005 5:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Who would I kill?

Book and Inara. Neither of them is a crew-member.

River, I'd keep on for a while because she's fun to watch, and without her, Simon has no purpose.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Monday, September 19, 2005 5:21 PM

SUBGUY


I've seen the BDM twice so-far, once in May and once in June. I still think it is the best movie of the year.

I also am of the opinion that Wash and Book's deaths were necessary. It put that element of danger into the finale of the film. I sat there in the theater, watching Zoe get shot and Mal get shot and I truly wondered to myself, was ANYONE, including Serenity herself, going to survive the film? Did Joss really mean it when he said he was going to use the opportunity the movie presented to tie up loose ends the series left dangling by literally tying up everyone and gutting them? As a result, until that final scene and the house light came back up, I was on the edge of my seat wondering how it would turn out! It was exciteing! It was frustrating! It made me want more! Which, you must admit, is Joss' overriding reason.

I have to say, I truly understand why Joss did what he did, and while it saddened me, I can't disagree with it.

How many times have you gone to see a Star Trek film, knowing the main characters could not die (okay, with one exception in STII, but everyone knew that was coming before they even set foot in the theater) and that took away some of the tension and excitement for you because you knew they were 'safe' ?

I'm sorry, but I must be on the disagreeing side of this discussion.

Captain Pete
"What can Brown do for you?"

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 2:00 PM

NERVOUSPETE



Just saw it a few hours ago and it devestated me. I think it's remembering how happy he was, on the ship and with Zoe, and how it all oddly seems real and textured now because of his and Book's death.

I wish they hadn't died, but I know and agree with why Joss did it. It was a cruel blow, and unexpected for me, and though I was stealing myself for something like this I thought I'd be able to handle it better.

I began to cry when we saw the graves with the flickering images of them, Mr Universe oddly affecting me almost as much as Book and Wash in that context.

And I was so distraught and shell-shocked when I left the auditorium, that I walked into the ladies toilets instead of the gents! Managed to retreat quickly, with the comment, "hit you pretty hard, huh?" and a nervous laugh from a girl at the door.

I compare this film death to the moment when I realised Morpheus was going to die in the Sandman, that it was just a matter of time and I couldn't do anything about it. I associate it with the good doctor Frank's death in my fave film 'A Matter of Life & Death', and with Midshipman Hollom's and Calumny's in 'Master & Commander', my fave film of 2003. Then there was Fuschia in Gormenghast, and the ending of The Amber Spy Glass trilogy...

Great stories have pain as well as hope. The two cannot exist without the other.

And I began to wonder if even any of them would survive by the end.

I'm hurt, but I'm still walking. This must have been what it was like for Mal in Serenity Valley... only worse.







"If you can keep your head whilst others... eurgh! Ack! I've spilt my ink! Ugh! Ink on my trousers! Agh! Ink on my shirt! My only hope! The window! Aieeeeee!" (Falls to death)
- Jonathan Nash

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Tuesday, September 20, 2005 3:42 PM

RODASH


Thanks Fireflygal for the spoiler. Wash and Zoe are my favorite characters. I have been awaiting this movie since the day they cancelled Firefly. Now, with this news that Wash is killed off; all of my excitement has just waned and I will not be waiting in line to see the movie now. I can't watch Wash die, knowing he won't be coming back. Maybe someday when the pain of this is healed I will watch it on DVD but I just can't watch it right now..

Rodash

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:46 AM

JAMIEC


Argh, double post...

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:50 AM

JAMIEC


Quote:
Originally posted by rodash:
Thanks Fireflygal for the spoiler. Wash and Zoe are my favorite characters. I have been awaiting this movie since the day they cancelled Firefly. Now, with this news that Wash is killed off; all of my excitement has just waned and I will not be waiting in line to see the movie now. I can't watch Wash die, knowing he won't be coming back. Maybe someday when the pain of this is healed I will watch it on DVD but I just can't watch it right now..

Rodash


I'm sorry, what? It's a bit harsh to blame someone for spoiling you when it was in a thread marked 'Major Spoiler' and begun with the words 'DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU HATE SPOILERS!'. You really have no-one to blame but yourself.

Nevertheless, if you think that your excitement has waned, see the movie. Excitement, thy name is Serenity (seen it twice, both times I was shaking from adrenalin for at least the last hour)...

In addition, why wait for the pain has healed to see the movie?? The wound will just be reopened as soon as you witness The Moment. Why not get it over with when it arrives on our cinema screens, seeing it as you were meant to, 15 feet high? Plus if you see it in the cinema there's all the more chance that Zoe and Wash will reappear in your life some time in the future (if only in flashback in the latter's case...)

'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 6:12 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


I'd assumed she was genuinely thanking for the spoiler? I can't imagine someone complaining about a spoiler in a thread marked spoiler.

I figured it was, "Thanks for the spoiler, you've allowed me to save my time and money."

And if this spoiler has traumatized that person so much that they will not see the movie... well, then, you really ought not to see it. Delicate minds and hearts ought not to face the white-knuckled excitement of Serenity.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:06 AM

QUEST5227


I just wonder if all of you who agree with what Joss has done, would still agree, if it was Mal or Inara who was killed instead of Wash or Book? Would you still believe that Joss is a genius, and not question anything he does? Killing one of those two would have REALLY been brave; but he didn't do that. I didn't think that either had to die, to make it realistic, to make it tragic. It was only done to hurt the fans. Non-Browncoats will not be affected in the same way. Jayne will now be watered down and supply the "voice of reason" that Wash had done. Book supplied us with mystery, compassion, faith and hope. The chemical balance of the ENSEMBLE cast, where each of us had a character that we identified with, is gone.

I'm new here, but I just thought that I would posit my question to you all...would you feel the same if Mal or Inara had been killed? If you feel that Joss is right in ANYTHING he does, then you would have no more problem if they were killed, than Book and Wash.

Quest5227

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:43 AM

JAMIEC


Quote:
Originally posted by quest5227:
I just wonder if all of you who agree with what Joss has done, would still agree, if it was Mal or Inara who was killed instead of Wash? Would you still believe that Joss is a genius, and not question anything he does? Killing one of them would have REALLY been brave; but he didn't do that. I didn't think that either had to die, to make it realistic, to make it tragic. It was only done to hurt the fans. Non-Browncoats will not be affected in the same way.

I'm new here, but I just thought that I would posit my question to you all...

Quest5227


Yes, that's right, Whedon just did it to hurt the fans. The fans that he's constantly praised and lauded for being the reason he's been able to make this in the first place. How he must hate us.

If it had been Mal or Inara, and done well in a way that made sense in context, I would probably feel exactly the same as I do about Wash and Book. However, as it was pretty much Mal's story, it wouldn't have made an awful lot of sense for him to die before his story was complete, IMHO. Book's death was a catalyst, as others have pointed out, galvanising Mal into action when previously he had just been running. And Wash died to increase the sense of danger and conviction that anyone could perish. Worked for me.

(And, incidentally, why would killing Inara be any braver? She was pretty peripheral to the story, probably more so than Wash, and Book's relationship to the Captain had way more emotional resonance in the film. A lot about Inara was very interesting, and Morena Baccarin is gorgeous as hell, but in many ways she's the *least* interesting character on that ship. Again, IMHO. Anyway, I digress.)

What gets me about many of the naysayers pointing out that people didn't have to die is the insistence that Whedon uses it as a cliche. Yes, it is true that he has killed characters before unexpectedly, but surely the greater cliche is our protagonists surviving almost insurmountable odds unscathed; surely here Whedon is *defying* the norm. Yes, you could argue that in Firefly and other of his works his characters still survive most of the time in ridiculously hazardous occasions, but the fact that they do drop dead on occasion at least alleviates that a bit. It's a Catch 22 situation. You can bet that if no-one died people would be complaining all over the place that there was no sense of tension, that it all seemed too neat. Rather how I felt about Revenge of the Sith in fact. We knew who would die, we knew how. The result: 'meh'.

Okay, the death of Wash absolutely *will*not* have the same emotional impact on the casual viewer as it has on a fully signed up Browncoat, but it will, for that casual viewer, help ensure their attention. This is not a fluffy reality where all our heroes make it, unlike so much of the chaff out there.

For the record, I do not worship Joss Whedon, I do question things he does; many things about Buffy and Angel, and even a few things about Firefly and Serenity, piss me off (I would list some if I had the time; email me if you *really* care). But these little things didn't stop the heart-wrenching thrill I felt for almost two hours in the cinema. The bad outweighs the good by a considerable margin; I would *never* claim there is no bad, because there *always* is. But I can tell you this much, it's fucking better storytelling than 95% of the crap out there. Sturgeon's law, pure and simple.

But yes, it is painful, and I think, obviously, that's what many people are having problems with it. But when was the last time you were moved by something that didn't have a little bit of pain mixed in? I can't make anyone like it who didn't, but I think you should at least give it a chance, if you at all had any respect for the craft that went into the series.

Anyway, sorry if I came on a little strong there, but as you can probably tell, I feel rather strongly about this. I also do not like the implication that if we possibly think the deaths were a good move for the story we are just blind worshippers and have no critical faculties whatsoever. It's an incredible generalisation with little basis in fact.

But yes, time for a *deeeeep* breath...


'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 11:33 AM

QUEST5227


Jamiec: I respect your position. I'd like to e-mail you directly, but we'll have to continue this discussion another time. I've got to be away from my computer until tomorrow. Is there a way to reach you directly, or would you rather continue here?
a) when I said "hurt the fans," I meant to make us feel pain. I don't think newbies will feel that as we did.
b) when I said Killing Inara would be braver, I meant that I believe that a great many of us are waiting, and have been waiting for Mal and Inara to get together. Killing her would make that impossible, and I think many fans would be dissapointed that they never got together.
c) On Firefly, the crew had a great many close shaves, and yet none died. I felt that killing off not one, but two, in the very first movie, leaves you with less to work with in the sequel. And as I mentioned, I felt that the chemsitry was one of the best things about the show.
I concur with FFG that we should all support Serenity, and I plan to do just that. I didn't hate the film, I just disagree with some of the authors choices.
Finally, I have been moved by happiness as well as tragedy. I would have preferred this movie to be happy, and then make me sad for the sequel. That's all.

quest5227@yahoo.com

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 12:50 PM

JAMIEC


Quote:
Originally posted by quest5227:
Jamiec: I respect your position. I'd like to e-mail you directly, but we'll have to continue this discussion another time. I've got to be away from my computer until tomorrow. Is there a way to reach you directly, or would you rather continue here?
a) when I said "hurt the fans," I meant to make us feel pain. I don't think newbies will feel that as we did.
b) when I said Killing Inara would be braver, I meant that I believe that a great many of us are waiting, and have been waiting for Mal and Inara to get together. Killing her would make that impossible, and I think many fans would be dissapointed that they never got together.
c) On Firefly, the crew had a great many close shaves, and yet none died. I felt that killing off not one, but two, in the very first movie, leaves you with less to work with in the sequel. And as I mentioned, I felt that the chemsitry was one of the best things about the show.
I concur with FFG that we should all support Serenity, and I plan to do just that. I didn't hate the film, I just disagree with some of the authors choices.
Finally, I have been moved by happiness as well as tragedy. I would have preferred this movie to be happy, and then make me sad for the sequel. That's all.

quest5227@yahoo.com


Thanks for such a reasonable response to my rambling and occasionally aggressive post :-) I'll continue the discussion here, no worries... to answer your points one by one:

a) If that's what you mean, then fair enough, I agree with you; or at least, I agree to the extent that it is part of the reason Whedon wrote it. As I pointed out above, I do believe The Moment has an effect on casual viewers, even though not as emotionally significant; apart from anything else it's a 'chucklechuckleohmygodhe'sdead' moment which will at the very least surprise anyone who hasn't been spoiled.

b) To that extent I agree that it would indeed be brave to kill Inara and/or Mal. However, I don't think it's any braver than killing Wash, in essence destroying another relationship that was superbly handled in the show and, had the show continued, would doubtless had many more twists. From what I heard from Whedon at Edinburgh and have read elsewhere, it adamantly wasn't an easy, pat decision - there was real heart-rending involved.

c) You have a very good point about the close shaves in the series; in fact, one of my major problems with the show (there aren't many..) is the very fact that, practically once every couple of episodes, there's a character at death's door, yet no-one pegs it. That's why I felt the film redressed the balance, and marked it out from just being a two-part episode (for reference: Star Trek Insurrection). The stakes were upped significantly, and that's what it needed to make it as a film; it could not have just been a movie about another heist-gone-wrong; fans would love it, mainstream audiences would go 'that's all very well, but what's the point?' (and yes, I agree that mainstream audience have not yet been properly tested as to how they will respond, but I hope and believe they will respond more positively to the approach taken by Serenity).

I agree utterly that chemistry between the cast is one of the best things about the series, but I don't think this will be diluted by the deaths of two members. I think it opens up fascinating avenues for exploration between various characters.

Maybe there will be less to work with in a literal sense that there will be two less voices involved, but the fact is that nine main cast members makes for a pretty top-heavy cast for anything under three hours. Hell, it's pushing it for a tv series! It's amazing that they packed in as much character interaction as they did in 14 episodes, much less surprising Whedon wants less to work with in the sequels. Less voices to serve, less voices to do a disservice to. Bear in mind that despite the brilliance that the cast chemistry was, there were episodes that pushed various members almost completely out of the limelight, and there were certainly character relationships that weren't fully explored (River-Inara, Wash-Simon, Kaylee-Zoe, Book-Wash, River-Zoe, Wash-Inara, to name a few).

In conclusion though, fair enough; it sounds like you wanted and/or expected different things from Serenity than I did. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted, because I did, in spades; and that did include being moved to sadness at some points and fair overflowing with mirth at many others.

Again, thank you for a considered response; here's hoping you'll enjoy the sequel(s) more!

'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett

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Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:11 PM

EXQUEMELING


As sorry as I am to see Wash go (he was one of my favourite crewmembers), the almighty shocked "GASP!!!!" that filled the cinema I was in was an incredible pay-off!

Death is like that sometimes - comes from nowhere, for no reason and strikes at someone you love, taking them before you even have a chance to say "good-bye".

I mourn the loss of Wash, but am pleased with the reaction this particular storyline twist created...

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Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:01 AM

RODASH


No, I meant thank you in a good way. In the last 4 years I have lost 3 very close family members; I do not want to pay to see 2 more die - that's all.

Enjoy fellow Browncoats.....but I am done!



Rodash

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Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:05 AM

JAMIEC


Quote:
Originally posted by rodash:
No, I meant thank you in a good way. In the last 4 years I have lost 3 very close family members; I do not want to pay to see 2 more die - that's all.

Enjoy fellow Browncoats.....but I am done!

Rodash


Ah, right; I didn't realise that was the case and apologies if I came across as insensitive. That's a very understandable reason and I'm sorry for your loss.


'The question seldom addressed is where Medusa had snakes. Underarm hair is an even more embarassing problem when it keeps biting the top of the deodorant bottle.'
-Terry Pratchett

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Friday, September 23, 2005 12:41 PM

MURMURER


Rodash - sorry for your loss.

I have some sympathy for your point of view - I had no forewarning, and after I saw the film, I was depressed for a week.

But rest assured that, first of all, their deaths are not arbitrary or manipulative - they serve a greater purpose than impressing the newbies. They may not be heroic in the traditional sense, but (more major spoilers follow)

Select to view spoiler:

if the character decisions that lead to their deaths hadn't been made, the 'verse would be much worse for it in the long run. Because of Book's death, Mal decides to stop running. Book's last words inspire him to find something worth fighting for - something that could affect the entire 'verse. Wash, in turn, dies helping him ensure that that something is brought to light.

Though Book was a victim, he made sure he took out some of the Alliance bastards who killed him. Also, some suggestions are made that he might have been an Operative much like the one that orders his death - so, in a sense it could have been his past catching up with him. Wash knew what he was getting into, and his last act before dying was landing a crippled Serenity, ensuring that everyone else lived.

Secondly, I've heard that Joss Whedon is determined to bring Ron Glass and Alan Tudyk back for the sequels. We'll be seeing them again in some form or another.


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