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Originally posted by Knibblet:
What are your thoughts on this?

I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

SPOILER SPACE

I agree with your Book and Zoe observations but not the Wash death /Reaver attack.

Why don't I agree? That would mean that Joss looked at Wash's death as a sick joke on us.

He's never created throw away characters and he knows we love the people that he creates.

Miss Calendar's murder was a sick joke carried out by Angelus; however, it was not a sick joke on us. It was crucial to the story and not something you saw coming. It hurt like hell and Xander will ALWAYS hate Angel because of it.

Not a joke. Not a joke in either case.

I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/

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Originally posted by AURaptor:
Scenes 1 and 3 are good, but I have a different opinion on your take for the 2nd one. Wash's death wasn't what I took as being what Mal was talking about ( but clearly no one did see that comin ) What I took out of that scene was the Reaver fleet that Mal would have hot on their heels as they headed toward Mr. Universe.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Originally posted by DucesTecum:
How did Mal know the Alliance fleet would be waiting for him? I've seen it three times now but maybe I forgot or missed something.

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Originally posted by oddness2her:
I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.

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Originally posted by cozen:

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Originally posted by oddness2her:
I have a feeling Joss meant to draw a parallel between the Miranda populace and America's current political climate. He may not want us to become Reavers, but we shouldn't just lie down either.

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Is it bad that I am so completely understanding this?

http://www3.sympatico.ca/ldnemeth/images/blackjacksilver.GIF

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Originally posted by oddness2her:


Ummm...no?

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Originally posted by Knibblet
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

Originally posted by DucesTecum:
No need to get snippy Jayne. I told you where this came from and I didn't say I agreed with what was said. I merely asked for your thoughts about it.

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Originally posted by DucesTecum:And who is Miss Calender and Angelus? This is a Firefly/Serenity thread and some of us have never seen or care to see Buffy or Angel. So there!

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
What are your thoughts on this?
SPOILER SPACE









I don't know why Joss killed either Book or Wash although I suspect with Book is was the poetic ending of an Operative dying at the orders of another Operative. You reap what you sow.

With Wash, sometimes being excellent at what you do still doesn't save you. Yes, he was a leaf on the wind and we watched him soar ... but on the ground he was as mortal as the rest of us.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/MN-Firefly/]

I keep wondering if Book wasn't originally a council member, or a general. It'd be fitting if he were the General who was in charge of the Serenity Valley campaign, and it would explain why the Alliance soldiers seemed so vehement (as though they knew who he was) when he needed healing in 'Home'. Just an idea. :o

And with Wash--I agree, but I'm thinking that Whedon did it with a plot in mind for the next movie. I see River as being the craziest, most talented pilot ever in the history of the 'Verse. Of course, I could be on crack. :o

"I'm so hip I can't see over my pelvis!"

http://home.comcast.net/~aethercitystudios/index.html

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Originally posted by SlowSmurf:
The episode is 'Safe'. I'm sure you knew that, just saying.
That seems too far fetched.

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Originally posted by Knibblet:

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Originally posted by Knibblet
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

Wow! Sorry you couldn't read and understand the joking reply which was clearly under your nose. Take offense at nothing much?

I do believe my point was that Joss doesn't create throw away characters and he doesn't take the 'death' of those characters lightly.
To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."

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WOW! I don't have a problem reading. I do have a problem reading humor when it isn't there. I take offense at being attacked without provocation when the very idea is to start a conversation, you know, the give and take of ideas merely for the sake of hmmm, conversing.

>>>>To paraphrase my Captain, "If I go and start a flame war, you'll see something different."<<<<<

shudder


"And that's not incense."

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Originally posted by DucesTecum:
WOW! I don't have a problem reading. I do have a problem reading humor when it isn't there. I take offense at being attacked without provocation when the very idea is to start a conversation, you know, the give and take of ideas merely for the sake of hmmm, conversing.

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Originally posted by Knibblet:
I think you're obsessive and delusional and you'll see patterns and answers in the bottom of a cereal box ... but we're all like that when it comes to the 'Verse, so it's okay.

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Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

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Originally posted by derangedmilk:
I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.

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derangedmilk wrote:
I definitly agree with one and three as well as the political implications of the Pax.

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I'd also like to add that Wash's(god rest his fictional soul) last words "I am a leaf in the wind. Watch me soar." are very much like the common phrase used to express one's mortality in relation to time, "I am dust in the wind." Very appropriate and in adding "Watch me soar" gave his death a very liberating almost upbeat note despite that my stomach is still in knots two days after seeing it and the scene made me so emotional I was unable to go to the second showing i'd intended.

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I'm still looking for my "Wash's death support group" made up of browncoats who liked the movie, everyone who seems to be affected by it as much as myself has turned against the rest of the film because of it.

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:
And of course there's Zoe's "prophecy" during the bank heist, repeated from the series, about the definition of a hero.

Pretty much sums up what happens to Mal. . .

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Originally posted by engineangel:
another double meaning is OBVIOUSLY:
all those times Mr. Universe or his wife-bot say "You can't stop the siganl" that was such a dis to FOX!!!!

)

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Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I flat-out hijacked, stole, copy-pasted this from the Firefly Prospero site because I haven't seen anything like it here and want to know what my FFF.net buddies think. I hope I haven't done anything which will "get me in trouble"!

My apologies to Rameking Shaped Flan for stealing any thunder.


3. The obvious one. After everyone is getting back to normal on Serenity, Mal asks Zoe about Serenity, but he only calls the boat "her" instead of referring to it by name. Zoe answers, "She's tore up plenty, but she'll fly true."

This is a no brainer that they're talking about Zoe. I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

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written by Liminalosity:
And what about that bizzaro Fruity Oaty Bars commercial? It was pretty wierd all the way through (kind of a Zombie Power Puff Girls look) but the bit where the octopus comes out of the girl's tummy with the words "Not Mandatory" written on the screen behind her...eeek, eeeek, seriously creepy. Somebody want to break that one apart to the gooey center for us? There had to be some nightmare entendre in there.

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someone to figure it out:
- the octapus came out from the women's bust.
- all of the characters looked like they were having seizures (they're eyes and pupils were all getting bigger, then smaller, then bigger, then smaller, ect.)
- the "Not Mandatory" thing mentioned above.
- at some point in the song, when the octapus's eyes went seizure-ish, the song mentions, "they will blow your mind."
-does anyone have the full lyrics to the fruity oaty bar song? that might help decipher this.

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Written by JaynezTown:
Zoe ( Bank Job ) -
do you know what a hero is, its somebody that gets others killed
But she may have also been remembering Mal leading the Battle of Serenity.

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Maybe this one has a triple meaning!!!! LOL. But seriously though, she, in the movie, might have been making the guy put down his weapon so that no one would get killed, refering to Mal and the Battle of Serenity (thinking about it herself, because it sure would fit in!!!), and forshadowing how Mal's actions get Book and Wash killed. (our boy must be a hero)

Also, this probably doesn't have anything to do with the movie but that man in Jaynestown that jumped in front of Jayne when he was going to get shot died because everyone thought Jayne was a hero. Just a thought.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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TheLurker wrote:
I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:
On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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Originally posted by engineangel:

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TheLurker wrote:
I'm surprised no one has included this one in this thread:
On Miranda, when River heaves in the corner and Simon goes to her. She says "I'm all right" to Simon, then pauses, gets sort of an almost surprised look on her face and repeats "I'm all right." On the surface, it looks like she's talking about being finished getting sick, but I read into it that for the first time since we've "known" her, River feels a true sense of clarity of mind.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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No, TheLurker. You are not wrong. i saw that, too. But i don't think it has a double meaning. The first time she says"i'm all right" to Simon, she's refering to the throwing up. The second time she says it, she's refering to her mental state. She's not crazy anymore. Still phsycic but she can now control her own actions. (yeah!!!) They're two lines that means two different things.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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written by Liminalosity:
With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.

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Originally posted by engineangel:

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written by Liminalosity:
With Joss I don't think it's possible to be looking too deep. We can be wrong, sure, but he's usually way below the surface. With scuba gear. And a flashlight.

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LOL x 3. SOOOOOO TRUE. happens in everything he does.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Originally posted by DucesTecum:
I still want more from Zoe than an acknowledgement that "she's tore up plenty," but at least she's admitting that much.

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written by Sickdude:
Completely agree with the theories on Zoe's "tore up" line, her "definition of hero", and River's "they don't lie down". As to the original thread's number two (gee, that sounds bad), "they won't see this coming". I thought that was a reference to his talk with Book and how Book says "they'll come at you sideways". Cap was saying that he could come at them sideways too, i.e. dish it out as well as they could.

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written by Sickdude:
As to number one, Book's statement that he doesn't need to know, I completely agree. Joss is saying the Book backstory will never get told, and isn't crucial to the story. However, here's something that didn't occur to me until the last screening: the element of re-birth. What we know about Book was that he was Alliance military, fairly high up, with a profound tactical knowledge. Then he left (dis-illusioned?) and wound up finding a new faith as a Shepherd. Well, that describes the Operative to a tee! The movie goes out of its way to say he strongly believes in his cause (not his actions). He gets dis-illusioned with the Alliance and everything he believed in to the point where he says "There's nothing here" about himself. Now he needs to find a new Faith (not Eliza Dushku, either), and he may well turn to religion and become a Shepherd himself. Voila, rebirth!

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written by LEMMINGMAN
Ma:l 'If I see you again I'd like to kill you myself'
Operative 'You won't'
Mal won't see him coming or won't kill him?

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written by QUASARWINDS
Mal: You think she'll hold?
Zoe: She's torn up plenty but she'll fly true.
Mal: Good. Make sure everything is secure.
Mal: Could get a bit rough.
Zoe: Always does.

I'm not sure if that was the exact quote but it was something along those lines.

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written by ORPHEUS
Don't you all just love how deliberate all of these line readings are? It's almost like they're giving us permission to read too much into it. I'm definitely loving it.

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