It CAN'T be true!!! *major movie spoilers* by engineangel

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

It CAN'T be true!!! *major movie spoilers*

POSTED BY: ENGINEANGEL
UPDATED: Saturday, March 25, 2006 20:58
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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:08 PM

Quote:

written by DIGIFICWRITER
Although this is way off-topic, I wanted to say that I really disagree with the assessment that there were other ways to drive Willow over the edge than killing off Tara. If you truly understand Willow's character and the way she viewed not only herself, but the world around her, you'd see that the death of somebody incredibly close to Willow was the only way to push her into doing what she does at the end of Season 6. It necessarily wouldn't have had to have been Tara, but outside of her, the only other character who was as close to Willow was Xander.

sorry everyone. This is still off topic but I really want to answer this. I disagree with you, DIGIFICWRITER. I think that there could have been other ways to push Willow over the edge but i also realize that tara had to be out of the way because she would have cushoned whatever happened to Willow. Tara always was willow's voice of reason and, not to mention, lover.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:27 PM

TMURRIE

Ok, I don't know if this was mentioned above because I didn't read all of those posts because there was a large amount, so forgive me if I am repeating anyone's views, anyway.

Wash to live again? No. There was only one reason I didn't bawl my eyes out during Serenity, and that was because I was with my friend, and he would have told all my other friends about me crying, who would in turn make fun of me, and make me cry more since it would remind me of Wash. But enough about that!

I don't want him to come back in River's crazy mind(even though it's not so crazy anymore). If there's a sequel, I want it to be Zoe who goes crazy. I want her to screw up during a mission, I want her to completly just stare off into spare during a shoot-out, I want her to be so messed up by her husband's death, that it even affects the lives of everyone on board(Maybe she's flying the ship and nearly crashes it into a moon by mistake because she wasn't really paying attention, who knows!)

I want a scene where Zoe looks up and see's Wash smiling at her, and then it a shot of her looking quite happy, and then it goes back to the shot of Wash, but instead it's just Jayne eating a peach off his knife, or somesuch. I dunno, I just think that would be something hard to see, and yet very real.

I'm just talkin'

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:32 PM

CLOCKWORK

i don't know where else to post this. i stumbled upon this site via a search engine in a desperate attempt to find some solidarity. please excuse me if this is a little long, but i think some context might help.

i'm not a "whedonite" or whatever the phrase is. i've seen the first 4 or 5 episodes of Buffy (i plan on watching the whole series in order), but HATED the idea of the show for years. i thought the idea of Firefly was really stupid when i first heard it. i thought it was right in line with all those crappy Sci-Fi channel shows that i can't stand (Babylon 5, Stargate, Farscape, etc.). shows that pass latex face sculpture off as alien life. shows that are lazy and cliche and useless.

but last weekend i saw the first Firefly episode. the double length one. my wife and i since watched the entire series in about a week. i fucking LOVE it. the series is pitch-perfect.

we saw the movie last night. i really loved it, start to finish. no complaints, despite what i have to say below. again, pitch-perfect. but i'll be honest, when i watched Wash die i felt like i got punched in the stomach. and i have been feeling like shit since. my wife was upset, but not THIS upset. i just can't get over it. i had trouble sleeping last night, going through the scene over and over in my head.

i've probably seen hundreds of thousands of people die on screen in my life. video games, movies, TV, whatever. A Clockwork Orange is my favorite movie, it's not like i'm overly sensitive. but something about THIS death just makes me want to tear my eyes out scream at somebody, "IT'S NOT FAIR!" he didn't get to say goodbye, he didn't get to stand up for himself, he didn't get to make a CHOICE. he was just sitting there, and they had to leave him.

the rule is supposed to be, "live by the sword, die by the sword." well, i wouldn't have been terribly surprised to see Jayne die. or the captain, or zoe, or river. not because of anything to do with the story, but because they're warriors. but killing Wash just ruins me.

i've read all the comments above mine, and reading them has helped. but i'm not a "browncoat," so this kind of reaction just seems inappropriate to me. maybe i'm being to empathetic, or something. i don't know. but all iknow i was feeling great yesterday and now i feel like crap, and i want to feel better again. i want to think of the series as something that makes me happy, and 24 hours after seeing the movie that just seems too hard.

bla.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:42 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

tmurrie wrote:
Wash to live again? No. There was only one reason I didn't bawl my eyes out during Serenity, and that was because I was with my friend, and he would have told all my other friends about me crying, who would in turn make fun of me, and make me cry more since it would remind me of Wash. But enough about that!

I don't want him to come back in River's crazy mind(even though it's not so crazy anymore). If there's a sequel, I want it to be Zoe who goes crazy. I want her to screw up during a mission, I want her to completly just stare off into spare during a shoot-out, I want her to be so messed up by her husband's death, that it even affects the lives of everyone on board(Maybe she's flying the ship and nearly crashes it into a moon by mistake because she wasn't really paying attention, who knows!)

I want a scene where Zoe looks up and see's Wash smiling at her, and then it a shot of her looking quite happy, and then it goes back to the shot of Wash, but instead it's just Jayne eating a peach off his knife, or somesuch. I dunno, I just think that would be something hard to see, and yet very real.

don't get me wrong. I want to see zoe's reaction, not to mention the rest of the crew's reaction to wash not being there anymore, but that can still happen, even if wash comes back. wash will just come back later in the movie so we can see everyone's reactions.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6:52 PM

SPIXDON

I hate the fact that Wash was killed. I'm sure that it did contribute to the ending of the film, but I really don't care. Wash was the guy that I always looked forward to when watching episodes. It was always, "oh, hey! Wash has a great line in this one!" or "Wash gets to do something awesome here!" and I'm going to miss that. He was my baby and his death made me actually think about walking out of the theater. (oh, and skyscraper - I ran into that spoiler months ago, too. I share your pain at being spoiled.)

And don't think that I am a one-day throw-away fan. I saw the The Train Job on tv and was hooked ever since. I went to the movie in costume. I have all nine main character costumes, and a reaver costume, and an alliance costume that I have made thatI lent out so others could go. When I say that I am a devoted fan, I am. The series is ruined for me now. Well, not ruined but certainly less enjoyable. I almost wasn't able to go see the movie again because I thought it would be too painful, but I ended up going again the very next day (I couldn't sit through it three times in a row as was originally planned) and I was suprised at how much I liked the movie. I had major issues with it the first time around (not just the fact that joss FRICKEN KILLED WASH) but the second time through, I really enjoyed the things that I had hated before. I even managed not to cry through Wash's "I am like a leaf on the wind" thing.

Okay, but getting to the original question asked, I have a couple of different theories. A) We could count the movie as a freaky dream - like The Phantom Menace. B) Maybe, when they got back to Serenity, Wash was still alive (just go with me on this one), and the doctor patched him up, and he was just fine. But - turns out, that fry cook job he was fired from (or any other thing...maybe Niska's still mad at him) makes him think that maybe it would be good if he faked his death and the reason that River and Mal were flying the ship at the end was because either he was still recovering, or he was tearing Zoe's clothes off. Or, maybe C) Something way better than I have come up with so far.

I do think that Zoe is pregnant though. It just seems to fit. Whether Wash is or is not coming back, I think that Zoe is pregnant.

or, I could be crazy.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:00 PM

KIZYR

Re: clockwork, a couple things you mentioned really jived with my opinion, so I just wanted to chime in on that.

Quote:
Originally posted by clockwork:
i've seen the first 4 or 5 episodes of Buffy (i plan on watching the whole series in order), but HATED the idea of the show for years. i thought the idea of Firefly was really stupid when i first heard it. i thought it was right in line with all those crappy Sci-Fi channel shows that i can't stand (Babylon 5, Stargate, Farscape, etc.). shows that pass latex face sculpture off as alien life. shows that are lazy and cliche and useless.

but last weekend i saw the first Firefly episode. the double length one. my wife and i since watched the entire series in about a week. i fucking LOVE it. the series is pitch-perfect.

Now, I do enjoy some of the shows you mentioned (actually, all three). But I know exactly what you mean about the latex-as-real bit. And that's one thing I love so much about Firefly; it's set apart from other, typical Sci-Fi by how realistic it comes off. Sure, there's the terraforming and space travel, but otherwise it feels so much more human than other science fiction. Perhaps that's why the best elements of your classic Western fit so well within it.

It's also why Firefly is my absolute favorite series ever to have been on television.

Quote:
Originally posted by clockwork:
i've probably seen hundreds of thousands of people die on screen in my life. video games, movies, TV, whatever. A Clockwork Orange is my favorite movie, it's not like i'm overly sensitive. but something about THIS death just makes me want to tear my eyes out scream at somebody, "IT'S NOT FAIR!"

It's kind of like what I mentioned... Wash's death affected me unlike any other fictional character's death I've ever seen. Perhaps for slightly different reasons than you, but I still felt very, very dismal afterwards. I could hardly eat, even.

Now I can see why Athenians used to commit suicide during Ancient Greek drama before comedy was inserted. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

ZOE: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps...

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:08 PM

TMURRIE

I almost walked out the theater after Book's death, and when Wash came around to getting all stabbed like he likes to do (Oh that Wash, always stabbin himself), I actually stood up, literally, the guy behind me told me to sit down, I almost walked out, but thought that Wash might come back! He might just tear off his arm like that one hiker who cut his arm off when it was under a giant boulder.

And then I imagined him shooting a reaver in the head, before it devours Zoe, and then killing the rest of them with his newly fashioned robotic/reaver arm he magically patched up from scrap parts of Serenity, and random reavers he killed on the way. And THEN, just when you think he's actually dead at that funeral scene...BAM, he holds his hands over Zoe's eyes and says "guess who?!"

Yes, I actually thought it might happen. And the possibility of it happening was the only reason I kept watching. Wash's death has only recently been accepted by me, and for a few days I considered mass murder on my Firefly dvds. I lost all, read it, ALL my hope that Joss Whedon was an actual human being. But I had to live on.

Sorry that was so long, I just had to share my Wash-kicking butt fantasy with you all.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 8:13 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I loved that Wash died. It was totally unexpected. Even though someone with a loose tongue spoiled it for me before the movie started, I was still surprised when it happened. I know this will probably not be a popular opinion, but Wash was a throw-away. He had no story behind him. No swashbuckling attitude. No dark secrets. He was pure hero-support. Someone to fill the lulls in the episodes with a humorous retort. But with no episodes, Wash is really an expendable character. He’s Ensign Smith beaming down with the away party. It’s unfortunate that Wash was played by, arguably, the best actor of the whole bunch, and he will be missed, but his death served the story far more then this humorous platitudes ever could. Even though I was fairly sure, Joss wouldn’t kill off anyone else. I still found myself anxious at the injuries inflicted on the other heroes. And when River jump out into the Reaver-fest, I admit, I half-expected not to see her alive again. Furthermore, in future releases, whether they are on the big screen or the small, Wash’s death adds a whole new dimension to Zoe. My guess is that Wash would have been a deadman come some season finale anyway, if Firefly had lasted that long, given Joss’ uncontrollable tendencies to kill off heroes.

Truth be told, I think Book’s death was much more expensive. Book was just hero support too, but he had potential to add stories to the plot. On the other hand, any stories that Book might have contributed probably wouldn’t have risen to motion-picture level. So unless Firefly returns to tv, it’s debatable how much impact his death will have.

-------------
Qui desiderat pacem praeparet bellum.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:06 PM

FALLENANGEL

Quote:
I too was stunned when Wash died, but thankfully, it happened suddenly. What got to me even more was the funeral scene. Seeing Wash's happy face on that tombstone and then watching Zoe walk between the rest of the crew - tears, many tears! Am I the only one that felt that way? I just wasn't prepared for that.

Nope, You weren't the only one. I wasn't prepared either. I cried even more during the funeral scene and seeing the tombstone and Wash's happy face... with that...cute smile. Oh, I think I might cry again.*runs off & cries..again*

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."

-Wash.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2005 9:07 PM

SPACEMANSPIFF

Needless to say again, but I loved Wash, too. Second fav character of the series. The woman behind me gasped when it happened. I was sure my friend in the seat next to me had hit me in the chest. I had to push it aside, just as the crew did, until the final showdown was done. Afterwards, thinking about it, I was able to put it into the perspective that helped me get through Buffy and Angel:

Joss hates people being happy.

Both his characters and his fans. What makes it worse is that he makes such great characters and stories that he has that POWER over us, to actually make us physicaly hurt or loose sleep or feel sick to our stomachs because a fictitious character dies. Wash. Book. Tara. Fred. Joyce.

My only solace is that Joss finds decent ways to have dead characters hang in there.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 1:28 AM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

written by SPIXDON
He was my baby and his death made me actually think about walking out of the theater.

actually, I had the same feeling. I was just so shocked and saddenned that i couldn't get up if i wanted to.

Quote:

written by SPIXDON
The series is ruined for me now. Well, not ruined but certainly less enjoyable. I almost wasn't able to go see the movie again because I thought it would be too painful, but I ended up going again the very next day (I couldn't sit through it three times in a row as was originally planned) and I was suprised at how much I liked the movie. I had major issues with it the first time around (not just the fact that joss FRICKEN KILLED WASH) but the second time through, I really enjoyed the things that I had hated before. I even managed not to cry through Wash's "I am like a leaf on the wind" thing.

this is exactly what happened to me!!! I was quite disappointed in the movie the first time. Mal seemed way too harsh, river's witty sayings seemed kind of mechanical, and wash's death made it just impossible for me to enjoy the rest of the movie . but the second time i saw it ... WOW ... it was amazing. i still cried but i came armed with tissues that time. three times in a row was just too much for me since wash died, but i'm probably going to go this weekend and bring a friend.

Quote:

written by SPIXDON
Okay, but getting to the original question asked, I have a couple of different theories. A) We could count the movie as a freaky dream - like The Phantom Menace. B) Maybe, when they got back to Serenity, Wash was still alive (just go with me on this one), and the doctor patched him up, and he was just fine. But - turns out, that fry cook job he was fired from (or any other thing...maybe Niska's still mad at him) makes him think that maybe it would be good if he faked his death and the reason that River and Mal were flying the ship at the end was because either he was still recovering, or he was tearing Zoe's clothes off. Or, maybe C) Something way better than I have come up with so far.

A) too cliche and it takes away from Wash's death AND the whole movie. B) that undermines the end of the movie too. we want something that is going to make wash come back, but still make the end of the movie and in fact that whole great gorram movie matter. I'm in favor of bringing wash back as a ghost that only river can see.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 2:08 AM

SPIXDON

Quote:

written by engineangel
A) too cliche and it takes away from Wash's death AND the whole movie.

I'm not talking about a Dallas-esque sort of thing, more of a let's-pretend-that-it-didn't-happen-and-maybe-it-will-go-away sort of thing. Maybe if, as a group, we decided, "hmmmm....no. Wash didn't die." and were united enough Joss would listen and make it go away? no? I'm delusional and thinking of things that could in no way make sense or work? okay. I'll accept that analysis. I'm grasping at straws here because I don't think that I am ready to accept the death of a character that I relate to and identify with on so many levels. I miss him. Very much. (yes, I know that I sound insane, but I have been with these characters from the very begining and you tend to get a bit attached. flans understand that sort of thing.)

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 2:50 AM

HASLINGER

Wash's death was completely apripori. I am glad it happened...a little hurt...but glad it happened. Had his death been typical MOVIE death, then I'd put the show down forever. Book was granted that honor. But in any story to make it more real you have to breakdown all perceptions. Think about this what do you really love about firefly? Most people I've asked have said the same thing over and over again....they had seen nothing like it. Well Serenity encompasses this same emotional response, and ups it.

R.I.P. HW

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 11:40 AM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

written by KYZER
Keep in mind... Book is my favourite character, always has been, always will be. But I managed to handle his death much better simply because I could see it within a fictitious environment. It was harder to do that with Wash. That, and, by that point, I was scared for the rest of the crew. I was on edge the most when Kaylee got those two darts to the neck, because I knew I couldn't handle another death at that point. And I'm usually fine with movie deaths!

everyone keeps saying that Wash's death made you fear for the other characters lives. Well, for me that wasn't true. I was afraid that something would happen, like someone might be maimed or something, but i knew we really couldn't lose anyone else or else there wouldn't be enough crew members for a good sequel. Maybe that's just me.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 5:00 PM

AINTWEJUST

I'm not sure why Joss did what he did. Maybe it was a cheap trick to put the audience on the edge of their seats for the finale, although I'd expect better treatment of a character from Joss. Over the years, I've come to respect Joss as a solid craftsman -- someone who understands the medium in which he works and uses it effectively.

When i was younger, I used to read Harlan Ellison's short stories. For all of their artistry, I often found myself angry at him as an author. Why? Because he would create characters, throw them into the deep end of the pool (metaphorically speaking) -- and then happily record their subsequent drowning.

As a writer myself, I have an unholy respect for my characters -- a love that some authors might find ludicrous. I don't believe they exist solely to advance the plot, anymore than human beings exist just to move along the action in everyday life. People are more than what they do, Sartre notwithstanding. I throw challenges at my people, and they respond as best they can. It is their reaction to the challenges that moves the plot. As a result of overcoming the challenges, they learn and grow, and then I throw harder challenges at them so they can learn and grow more.

But if you kill a character, it should be for something more than just for effect.

I didn't want Wash dead, ever. I certainly didn't want him killed to create a mood, or raise the level of dramatic tension.

Part of Joss's skill is his ability to create characters that transcend their existence as characters, and become people you feel you know. He facilitates an extension of the viewer's suspension of disbelief to the point where you'd love to sit down in Serenity's kitchen and spend time chowing down with this crew.

Wash was family, his fictitious status notwithstanding. To have him killed so precipitously, torn away without warning -- well, it's like watching an old friend step off the curb into the path of an oncoming semi. If Joss used him as a tool for establishing dramatic tension, it's even worse. Instead, it's like watching someone you trust SHOVE your old friend in front of the semi just to make you worry that someone else you love might be next.

Yes, Wash belonged to Joss. But he belonged to all of us too, because we gave him life by believing in him and the whole crew.

This being said, he's gone. Any attempt for Joss to bring him back to life would be no better than Spock's return from death in the Trek movie franchise. I can think of a neat way to bring him back that would be funny and touching and right for Wash -- as a ghost only River (and the audience) could see and hear, delivering ongoing commentary about the action without being able to take part. Even so, the empty seat at Serenity's table would stay empty. And his wry counterpoint to the "wacky fun" would go unheard, and unanswered, by the crew.

I guess the bottom line for me is this. Joss can do what he wants with his characters. But Wash was ours as much as he was Joss's, because we gave him life and believed in him. And even though Wash wasn't real. I will mourn his loss. The franchise isn't dead, and it promises to take some interesting twists and turns in the future (if there is one).

But the dinosaurs are silent, the Hawaiian shirts are packed away, and Zoe sleeps alone. Requiescat in pace, old friend. You will be missed.

Had my say, done my dance. The rest is dust and ashes.

"Big damn heroes? AINTWEJUST."

"Everybody dies alone." -- Mal Reynolds

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 5:30 PM

BADGERS1

Yeh,I went to see it, and didn't expect any of the deaths that happened. I didn't expect the whole crew to be shot or beat up either, but it fit. That's the only movie I've ever cried at because of a scene. It took me two days to accept that Wash died. Although, I think it wouldn't have been the same if he didn't die. I was pretty speechless. I did think Zoe should have showed a little more care that her hubby got impaled by a giant spike. I don't care how war disciplined she is, that just wasn't cool. I always had the slight idea she only married him because he was the only guy who wasn't her captain or...well, Jayne.That just bothered me.

RIP Wash, Book, and Mr. Universe.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 5:32 PM

ENGINEANGEL

that was wonderful AINTWEJUST. it's what i've been trying to get across the whole time. And if i may say, it was a wonderful memorial to Wash.

Quote:

But the dinosaurs are silent, the Hawaiian shirts are packed away, and Zoe sleeps alone. Requiescat in pace, old friend. You will be missed.
Had my say, done my dance. The rest is dust and ashes.

Wash, you were the best Gorram pilot in the verse. rest in peace good buddy (and then come back!!!)

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Wednesday, October 5, 2005 5:45 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

written by BADGERS1
I did think Zoe should have showed a little more care that her hubby got impaled by a giant spike. I don't care how war disciplined she is, that just wasn't cool. I always had the slight idea she only married him because he was the only guy who wasn't her captain or...well, Jayne.That just bothered me.

The reason Zoe was like that was because of shock. She had just seen her lover and soulmate impaled in the middle of his sentence. She shows it later when they're all fighting the reavers. She goes out of the line and doesn't care if she gets killed. She's so intense in that scene. Zoe is and always has been a warrior woman. She keeps things bottled up. She knew that if she broke then, the crew probably wouldn't get through the fight.

Wash, you were the best Gorram pilot in the verse. rest in peace good buddy (and then come back!!!)

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 11:31 AM

JASONZZZ

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
He’s Ensign Smith beaming down with the away party. It’s unfortunate that Wash was played by, arguably, the best actor of the whole bunch, and he will be missed, but his death served the story far more then this humorous platitudes ever could. Even though I was fairly sure, Joss wouldn’t kill off anyone else.

Redshirts - my good friend Finn... We call'em redshirts... or if you liked Galaxy Quest "Crewmen #6" will do.

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 3:51 PM

DUEY

I was devastated. I barely remember anything that happened after Wash's death. I wept like a child all the way home.

I had planned to go see the film a few more times on opening weekend but could not make myself emotionally do that. I almost threw away my DVDs because it hurt too badly to watch them.

It really, truly affected me. I honestly wonder how much of a cut in the film's box office was due to fans having too much of an emotional reaction to go see the film again. I know I couldn't.

I was upset at Book's passing, but he was redeemed after a long life. Wash. . .just killed me.

My grandfather was unexpectedly rushed to the hospital on Monday (Thank GOD he's OK) and I was confronted with the difference in pain for an fictional character and pain for a person in real life that you love-there is honestly no comparison. I bring that up because my reaction to Wash's death was so strong that I was honestly worried about my connection to a ficticious character. I cannot help but feel that the shot at Wash was cheap and unworthy. It hurts, and while I intellectually understand all the rationales proposed on this thread, I'm still pretty angry about it.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not be afraid." John 14:27

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Thursday, October 6, 2005 6:12 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

written by CHRISTHECYNIC
I want Wash back, but I don't want him to be resurrected, or be a ghost. I feel like that’s a disservice to Wash. Yeah, you died, but that doesn’t matter. I can just write a nice little plot device and now you’re back. Your death didn’t make any difference at all. I hate things like that.

there are ways to bring a character back without it being cheesy or making his death not have meant anything. Remember, even if he comes back, we have to deal with Zoe's pain and the rest of the crew trying to get on without him before that. That's why i like the "ghost that only River can see" idea. We can see everyone's reactions and how Wash's death affects everyone.

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Friday, October 7, 2005 2:58 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

Written by ROBBS
Remember that the movie is some significant amount of time later than the series. Stuff has happened and members have split. Also, the captain's relationship with the doctor has gotten worse (not that it was ever good, but still!). So what are the odds that the sequel (there had better be a sequel! If we all see it five times and bring dates(?) would that bring in enough?) will take place in between the epic movie storyline and the semi-episodic TV storylines? It allows the deaths to be vast and tragic, yet allows us another glimpse or two at the whole cast. It's also sneaky and very comicbooky (both of which are Whedonish/Whedonesque/Whedonsomething).

i think that this might be fine for the tv series, but i don't like this idea as much as some others for the movie because as much as i want to see wash again, i want the firefly verse to move forward. i want to see what happens as time moves along.

please travelers. help me find a way to bring wash back or at least make his daeth make sense!

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:56 AM

ZARNYWHOOP

Man, after Wash and Book are both killed I was half expecting Joss to kill Mal as well!

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:04 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by AINTWEJUST:
As a writer myself, I have an unholy respect for my characters -- a love that some authors might find ludicrous.

I think you have to have that love, if you don’t feel like they’re real than the readers won’t, if you don’t love them than the audience can’t. Also if you don’t care about them what write the story at all?

Quote:
I don't believe they exist solely to advance the plot, anymore than human beings exist just to move along the action in everyday life.

A good way to look at it. I agree.

Quote:
It is their reaction to the challenges that moves the plot.

The only way to look at it as far as I’m concerned.

Quote:
But if you kill a character, it should be for something more than just for effect.

Here is where the two of us disagree. I don’t think Wash died for effect. Just because you can not trace a death to a single action doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a point. I wish we could point and say, “This is why Wash died,” I wish you could say, “He died doing this so the others could live,” or something like that, but even though that didn’t happen doesn’t mean he died just for effect.

He died so that people could know. That may seem disconnected, but if River had died in her fight with the Reavers would it be any less abstract? What would you say, she died to save Simon? Well how does that add up? She would have died because Simon dropped the medkit, the door didn’t work properly, and no one had thought to make it so you could close it from the inside. How is any of that connected to saving Simon? It really isn’t. Not directly.

Yet had River died there people wouldn’t call it pointless, they wouldn’t say it was just for effect.

Wash died for a similar set of reasons, they intentionally brought the Reavers, they couldn’t get the backup on in time to make a more controlled decent, the ship turned making the cockpit face towards the Reavers, and the Reavers use spiky things. No less related to sending the signal than a faulty door is to saving Simon.

If you want to say that Wash’s death is just for effect then you can just as easily say that every death in every work of fiction is only for effect. Every violent death is a series of pointless coincidences, that’s how death is. The only death that couldn’t be avoided by a single variable being changed is old age.

The character Kyle from the series The Pretender died because he was one step too far forward to push his brother out of the way but in the perfect place to lunge in front of him and take the bullet in his brother’s place. That seems to be the kind of death people are complaining that Wash didn’t get, but it is no less pointless, if he had just been one step backwards they both could have lived.

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
there are ways to bring a character back without it being cheesy or making his death not have meant anything. Remember, even if he comes back, we have to deal with Zoe's pain and the rest of the crew trying to get on without him before that. That's why i like the "ghost that only River can see" idea.

That is the only way I can see to do it that I would accept. Anything else just makes it pointless in my eyes, but having River see him is something that would fit in with the continuity, bring him back, and still leave him firmly dead.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 5:12 AM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Here is where the two of us disagree. I don’t think Wash died for effect. Just because you can not trace a death to a single action doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a point. I wish we could point and say, “This is why Wash died,” I wish you could say, “He died doing this so the others could live,” or something like that, but even though that didn’t happen doesn’t mean he died just for effect.

I really couldn't've said it better... Likely would've said it much worse.

The way I saw it... Wash didn't die to prove that the movie was getting even more serious. He died because the movie was on a serious level to begin with (serious as in, anything can go). Trying to pinpoint a reason why he went is a bit futile; when people die in the real world, folks aren't always looking (and can almost never find) a specific reason behind a death. The crew was in an incredibly dangerous situation... it was probable from the beginning that someone wasn't going to make it. Just who, where, and how was variable; but beyond "they were knee-deep in Reavers", there's no "why".

I mean, if there's no apparent reason behind someone's death, that doesn't mean it's a plot device. KF

~Kaiser Farooque

ZOE: Preacher, don’t the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?
BOOK: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps...

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:25 AM

JASONZZZ

I can safely conclude that it's a movie, it's Hollywood, almost everything has a literary value, a metaphor, or done for an effect... No, I am not talking about absolutely everything like the color of underwear they are wearing, or how they blink/bat their eyelashes, or the placements of their cups on the table. I am talking about the particular swaggart a character carries, how they are dressed, the theme music(s), and believe it or not - what is shown to you during that small 2 hours. They only have 2 hours to tell you a story, why would you think that they would waste their/your time showing you insignificant things like walking around, randomly yammering at each other, sitting down eating, showering, bathing, reading a book? Every single frame committed into that final reel is there to convey something by the editor/director/filmmaker. And something *insignificant* as in a character death is either some sort of metaphor, some sort of plot device, or done to create an effect. I'm just saying how I perceived it, this is what I see - what I saw was a cheap stunt Halloween or Scream or I know what you did... would do - for a quick jolt/scare to spike up the tension or to quickly change up your emotions...

Pretty standard Hollywood gag... For me, this was out of place... On the other hand, parodied correctly, as in things like "Scary Movies X" it's funny... Great sight gags...

I mean, look at how the River character is dressed all the time, I bet a million different decision went into exactly how those scraps are draped onto her; but that's all also done for a particular effect, invoke feelings and emotions in you. What? in particular to have you feel the sympathy for how patheticly used she was. But overall, nothing sells in Hollywood like a skimpily clad perpetually dripping wet/damp hot chick.

come on, don't tell me you sat thru the thing like one huge Zen moment. It all washed over and around you, but you were not effected or unchanged.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 6:56 AM

RODASH

I understand exactly how you feel Duey. I had the same emotional response when Wash died. It has consumed me since I found out; hence my posting on this site, when I have never in my many years, posted on a site before. Scary.....as I think of myself as a very rational adult - not to be consumed by fictional characters.

However, I can tell you that there will be no repeat ticket sales from me. And, if Wash does not come back....please, no puns on my rational adult comment above... (oh, and no flashbacks or ghosts please); I can always pretend the movie never existed and treasure my Firefly DVD set forever.

Hope is the best and last of all things, without it, there is only time. And Death is the only escape of time.

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 7:52 AM

SERENITYBOUND

OGFM! I can't believe it! As my friend and I said after the movie, I strongly disaprove! I loved the movie, don't get me wrong, but Wash? I mean, they could've at least had him be able to say something before he actually died. Like saying 'I love you' to Zoe or something. But alas, I know it would lose it's effect. I do however like the ideas I've read other people bring up about Wash coming back as a ghost that River can see. I think that'd be kinda awesome. And have it to where Zoe can sometimes 'feel' or sense different signs of it, but never see anything. LOL. But...WHY!? After that, when ever someone else got hurt I'm like, what the hell? They already killed one major person, why wouldn't Simon or Kaylee die too? But they didnt....I liked that...if Kaylee died, I'd never see this movie again. Anywhoo, why Wash? What the hell did he ever do to anyone?

O well, such is life I guess. I think how they left Zoe, hiding her pain and all was good in terms of her character, but I think we the people need to see her break down just a little bit. Like when she is alone in her bunk or something. My friend and I decided that if there is a sequel or something to that effect, Zoe should either be pregnant or be holding a baby because for a while, that's all Wash wanted, a child. I think that would be a partially nice thought....but I must agree with Zoe, not to sure about Serenity bein' the best place for a baby...but still...it would be a nice thought.

~*Rest in Peace Hoban "Wash" Washbourne*~

"Day is a vestigial mode of time measurement based on solar cycles. It's not applicable... I didn't get you anything."

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Saturday, October 8, 2005 8:09 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

written by MALICIOUS
What gets me most is that I can no longer enjoy episodes of Firefly, knowing what I know. Every ep is now shadowed with the thought, "Wash dies in the movie......Oh, God, WASH DIES IN THE MOVIE."

That was my problem, too. i share your pain. but i have learned to get past it ... i just really want to keep watching firefly. It's just like even though i wasn't sure i wanted to see the movie again because of what happend to Wash, i went the next day anyway because i just couldn't stay away.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

please travelers. help me find a way to bring wash back!!!

River: There's too much snow on top. It's going to cave in. His brain's in grave danger.
Zoe: River, honey, he's putting the hair away now.
River: It doesn't matter. It'll still be there. Waiting...

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 4:10 AM

DONCOAT

I'm going to throw out an idea here that occurred to me after my 4th viewing of Serenity, and I haven't seen mentioned in this or any other thread yet. It came from my mentally connecting two scenes in the film.

One scene is Wash's death. The other happened a few screen minutes earlier: the scene of Mal, alone on the catwalk, after having committed his family to a very, very dangerous course of action.

The connection came when I started wondering what was going through Mal's mind at that moment. By then, his fury at the Operative would have abated somewhat, and he would have started thinking more coolly about what he'd done, the path he'd chosen.

In fact, I think he would have been questioning himself: did I make the right decision? Have I put us on a path that will lead to the deaths of more of the people I love?

[Aside: in the shooting script, this mood was reinforced by a scene with Inara that didn't make the final edit.]

Given that context, Wash's death does play a role beyond film-school, cinematic shock value. It doesn't just raise the tension and stakes for us. It raises them for Mal. The loss of Book was one thing. But the moment that Reaver lance takes the life of his pilot, friend, and "brother-in-law", Mal's commitment is sealed.

That's why, ten minutes later, when the Operative asks Mal if he's willing to die for his belief, there's only one possible answer. You can almost see Mal think of Book and Wash in the little beat before he gives that inevitable reply.

So now I can say that I disagree with those who say Wash's death was pointless. It had a point (no sick pun intended). It was the point on the sword of Mal's determination. And it took me four viewings to get past my own self-centered shock at the loss of my fictional friend to understand that.

Shame on me. Shame on all us Browncoats who can't or won't grasp that.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 6:52 AM

ENGINEANGEL

DonCoat ... I just have one thing to say to you!!!!...

That's completely true. I understand what you're saying and understand better why Wash's death happened. It really does affect Mal. It just takes four viewings to see that. Each time i've seen this movie, i've noticed more of the little details. The first time, i was too traumitized to notice Mal's subtle, yet profound reaction to Wash's death. Today, i saw the movie a fourth time, and i saw that Mal cared deeply and was definately affected by the loss of Wash. He just didn't show it very much because, as he says in the movie, "these people need a leader. I may not be much of one but they have to follow." He needed to keep his calm and stay together so that his crew could keep going. That doesn't mean I like it any better. But it does help to know that it wasn't just a pointless Hollywood stunt (i have always expected better from Joss than a pointless Hollywood stunt).

Thank you for showing this to me. It's true and has helped.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."

Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 7:47 AM

SHINYMONKEY

Any man who creates a sci-fi series without a single bumpy-foreheaded alien would NEVER bring back a beloved character as a ghost. (I can picture it now -- Wash, standing behind his pilot seat, outlined in glowing blue, shaking his head and saying in a reverberating, ghostly voice, "USE THE PORT THRUSTER, MAL!") It may make some of us feel better to imagine that this might happen, but let's be honest ... it ain't gonna. As far as Wash coming back as an android, we can see by the realistic, smooth movements of Mr. Universe's lovebot that androids in the 'Verse are not particularly lifelike. They LOOK good. But they're obviously artificial. Wash ain't a-comin' back as a mannequin any more than as a wise Jedi spirit.

Flashbacks, Baby! I read in an interview that Joss is more interested in moving this storyline ahead [IF sequels are possible] than doing some kind of prequel. But I think that all the actors are signed on for more ... so we will no doubt get to spend some more time with our old friends Book and Wash in some kind of flashback as Zoe tries to come to terms with her husband's death or Book's mysterious past catches up with the crew.

Just my two Alliance gold-wrapped concentrated nutrient bars (sort of like "two cents," but more appropriate in the barter-based economy out on the Rim).

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 8:30 AM

ENGINEANGEL

oh come on!!! Any ghost Joss does (and he has done them before) is not going to be a Hollywood ghost, glowing all around. Andf i don't want ONLY flashbacks. I have explained this already in earlier posts!!! It's not the same!!! The ghost concept wouldn't be great just by itself, but if only River can see and hear him, that would be just the twist we would need. Just think about it! River is a reader (a pshycic). Wash couldn't leave Zoe yet. He didn't get to say goodbye. Therefore, Wash has a reason to stay behind, and River, as a reader, can talk with and see him, without it being cheesy or too far out to be real.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 11:42 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
DonCoat ... I just have one thing to say to you!!!!...
...
Thank you for showing this to me. It's true and has helped.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

Wow! I'm so glad my little insight made you feel better. (I have a squishy feeling in my chest right now!)

Maybe all we really need is a great big Browncoated group hug...

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 12:03 PM

FLYINGTAMS

Joss is evil - and you can never trust him with your heart. Might as well learn it sooner than later.

The kid could have a great future, if he learns: NOT to kill his darlings.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 12:08 PM

SIDANE

I agree with the sentiments that killing Wash helped the suspense of the finale. It cranked it up another notch. If they're willing to kill him off, anybody could be next. I honestly thought Simon and Zoe were going to die too. Took guts from Joss to make such a bold move, particularly in a film which already has such a strong fan base. So big kudos to him for that.

I remember seeing an interview with Lawrence Kasdan, screenwriter for Empire Strikes Back, and he said he wanted Han Solo to be killed in the carbon freezing process (as did Harrison Ford). The reason was the same - show that the main characters are in dire peril, it's not a game, not everybody lives happily ever after and any of the other main characters could die too.

Alas George Lucas had other ideas and if you look at Return of the Jedi, Han Solo's character does become kinda hokey, bland and just too "nice" compared to epidoes 4 & 5.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:25 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

FlyingTams wrote:
Joss is evil - and you can never trust him with your heart. Might as well learn it sooner than later.
The kid could have a great future, if he learns: NOT to kill his darlings.

NO!!!!

I will not let you say that about Joss. I am not one of the maniacs (sorry to any maniacs reading this) that says that Joss is ALWAYS right and that we should trust in him no matter what. That's going overboard. But he is under no circumstances evil. That's going overboard as well. I don't particularly agree with Joss's reasons to kill Wash and I definately don't like it, but he is a wonderful person, i'm sure, very fuzzy and nice!!! And he's a genius on the screen - an absolute genius!!! If you can make a dispute out of that, I'll be amazed and shocked.

keep flyin' travelers,
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 1:26 PM

JAYSONAYCH

Quote:
Originally posted by Sidane:
I agree with the sentiments that killing Wash helped the suspense of the finale. It cranked it up another notch. If they're willing to kill him off, anybody could be next. I honestly thought Simon and Zoe were going to die too. Took guts from Joss to make such a bold move, particularly in a film which already has such a strong fan base. So big kudos to him for that.

Agreed. Wash was my favorite character on the show and it was truly sad to see him killed. Looking at how little Book seemed like he was going to be in the film in previews and in other info before coming into the movie, I kind of expected he would die. But when Wash died, at that point in the movie, it helped put me on the edge of my seat. Serenity was crashed and heavily, if not irreperably, damaged. Reavers are on their tail, the Operative and the Alliance are threatening, and all of a sudden out of the blue, after a comedic line WHAM! Wash is immediately and gruesomely killed. At that point, all bets are off as to how this thing's going to end. Especially as the rest of the crew is getting shot, sliced, poisoned, and beaten in the final battle. There was a very real possibility that more of the crew, if not all of them, might end up dead at the end of the film.

Wash's death may have been one of the more tragic and saddening things I've seen in a film in a long time, but it was not wasted or worthless to the movie. It made the ending infinitely more exciting and the movie as a whole amazing successful and refreshing. Not enough can be said about how that made an already compelling film more immersive.

I want to know...has Whedon or Glass or Tudyk or anyone in the cast spoken publicly about the deaths of the characters, and how they decided who would die and how everyone involved felt about it? I'm interested to find out what went on behind the scenes on that one.

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 2:55 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

There was a very real possibility that more of the crew, if not all of them, might end up dead at the end of the film.

I couldn't believe that. Then there wouldn't be enough characters left for the trilogy (especially if they all died). I truly thought that, Wash's death added to the tension of the moment, but, if anything, it made any more deaths highly unlikely.

just my thoughts,
keep flyin'
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Sunday, October 9, 2005 3:08 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

DonCoat wrote:
Quote:

Originally posted by engineangel:
DonCoat ... I just have one thing to say to you!!!!...
Thank you for showing this to me. It's true and has helped.

Wow! I'm so glad my little insight made you feel better. (I have a squishy feeling in my chest right now!)
Maybe all we really need is a great big Browncoated group hug...

Hugs all around!!!!

Everyone join in!!!

And DonCoat. I meant every word of what I said.

keep flyin' travelers,
EngineAngel

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 3:17 PM

ENGINEANGEL

GET READY FOR LOTS OF QUESTIONS!!!

Does anyone have any more ideas for the next couple of movies?
What about bringing wash back?
Do you like the ideas posted on this thread or not?
Is there any news from Joss or any the cast on this subject that you have heard/read?

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

------------------------------------------------------

"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how i soar."
Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest in Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 5:49 PM

DREAMTROVE

I'm never going to make it through this thread, so neither probably is anyone else so they may not see this post.

Anyway. Wash's death was awesome. Please stay dead Wash. It really caught me by surprise. Wash was one of my favorite characters, but I agree with the main points here that

1. It changed the tone of the battle and made you think, who else dies? Simon? River?

2. Real consequences to real actions, and randomly, not a sacrafice for the greater good.

But also, Wash was a story problem. A serious story problem. Not because of Zoe, I really kind of got tired of the war-buddy angle. Wash is funny. He's too funny. He's so funny that it's impossible to take any scene with him in it seriously. He and mal are getting tortured to death and I'm laughing my ass off. That's just not right. It makes Mal's ear being cut off an "Oops, there goes an ear, I wonder if they'll take any fingers" when really it should be an "Oh No!"

In order for the whole storyline to turn more serious, Wash has to not be in it.

BTW, I see no crying over Book. Offesnsive comment comming: I was ecstatic when Book bought it. No this isn't a racist thing. It's a sexist thing. Book lost me on the whole special hell thing. Male feminazis deserve their own special hell. Male characters need balls. End offensive comment.

But Wash's death really upped the ante, it was brave it was awesome, and it makes me a little worried. It Joss is out there listening, please don't kill Jayne. Or River. And try not to kill Kaylee. Or Simon.

Zoe, Mal, Inara, sorry guys, I love you, but you know how it is. Life is tough on the edge, and someone's going to get sliced in two.

Also, here's a really brave idea. Have River kill the next PC. Err. Um, you guys know what I mean. Is there a term for permanent characters who are in every show?

Joss is going to kill them all. That oughtta distract us.

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 7:50 PM

RONCHI

----But that's not even the best part to me. This was Wash's only way to die a hero. He just performed a miraculous landing, saving the ship and crew (mostly). If he dies in battle, it looks like ineptitude. But dying in the manner he did, it's the best death the character of Wash could hope for.---

i totally agree the way he went was the best way that wash could go...with that said, Wo de ma he ta de feng-kuang de wai-sheng dou, he was my favorite character ever since i saw the show for the first time way back when it first aired...as far as bringing him back i dont think it will happen as much as i would love to see it...doesn't seem probable...We'll miss ya Wash

Curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 10:35 PM

GRENDEL824

Just to give my reaction context, I've only really been interested in the Firefly universe for about two weeks - I never got around to watching it when it was new (it just didn't seem that interesting to me - I'd never watched Buffy, though I still mean to give it a try sometime - I liked Star Trek okay but was never a fan and this SEEMED similar, etc., only knew Whedon's work through his quite good Astonishing X-Men comics), and the only reason I checked out the show was because my friend had just seen the movie (also without ever seeing the show) and told me how good it was. After watching just a fraction of the first episode on his brother's DVD, I was hooked - I ordered the DVD set that night (it still hasn't arrived, grrr!) and saw the movie that weekend.

Wash was instantly my favorite character, and I had already accidentally read a spoiler about him, but it still didn't ruin the tension or shock of when it actually happened. That moment is a love/hate thing for me - it worked, which is why I both love it and hate it. But it was good writing. It served the story, and as long as I get to see the character in (hopefully many) sequels in flashbacks or whatever, I'm happy.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the converted here, but this is an amazing show/cast/story they've got going, and I hope they get to keep doing it for a long, long time. It's the first property in a long time (show/movie/comics/whatever) that I've actually been so won-over by that I feel obligated to recommend it to others because I think it deserves a much better chance than it's gotten so far. As a writer, it's one of those things that I end up wishing I'd written - like I don't have to write a sci-fi TV series anymore because somebody already did what I like to think I would've done (just like Donnie Darko was the kind of movie I would've made, and Watchmen was the comic I would've made [well, maybe not quite so well, but you get the idea...]).

I STILL haven't seen most of the TV series (only 6 episode so far), but it's already one of my all-time favorites. Despite always being leery of so-called "rabid fan-bases," I can see why people can be so devoted to this show. I hope everybody involved is as nice as I've heard, and that they're well-rewarded for the great work they've done.

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Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:49 PM

BOBSUNCORP

It could have been worse. I've only seen the movie once so I could be mistaken but Wash looked like he was killed by the same kind of harpoon that got Jayne in the leg, a weapon designed to catch your prey and reel him in like a fish. Maybe there was an original cut where Wash was hit, then pulled out through the window and eaten alive by the Reavers (ever seen Shaun of the Dead?). This was a little too nasty, so it was cut and he just died. Doesn't seem so bad now does it?

"Who do you think tracked us?"
"The ugly one, Sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 2:53 AM

RABBIT2

Here`s a thought.

Maybe Zoe`s Pregnant.

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 3:08 AM

GERSHOM

I'm new to this forum but - Wash died so that you were left seriously wondering if any of the others WERE going to survive!

If Wash can die such an unexpected death then when all the others start to get injured - Zoe, Kaylee and Simon (you knew Mal would somehow succeed but survive?) - you are seriously left wondering if they would also die before the end...

It did work for me at least, I was left seriously worried about Simon and Kaylee surviving the film.

The reason Wash was picked was that he was upbeat of them all and gave us a chance to see Zoe go into her Valkarie soldier mode again - something not seen since the end of the war...

One thing that definitely DIDN'T work for me was when Simon is in the room about to rescue River and he ALLOWS them to insert a needle into her forehead BEFORE setting off his stunner... There is no way he'd allow that, he loves her too much to allow them to hurt her anymore, and especially stay so bl**dy calm about it!. Also he's given more information about what has been done to River than he seems to know in the initial episodes of Firefly... Sorry but that jarred.

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:15 AM

ENGINEANGEL

I don't know if this was just me, but i really was left with a sense of "Joss can't kill of any more of the characters or else there won't be enough of them left for a good sequel." The fourth time i watched the movie i could see what you guys meant but the other times i saw it, i knew Joss wouldn't kill anyone else. The only person i was worried about dying was Simon ... and then only for a bit. The only thing i was worried about was that people getting seriously maimed or hurt.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

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Sunday, October 16, 2005 10:56 AM

CELLULOIDGRIM

I heard a long time ago that someone was going to be killed off because of scheduling issues. And at the time Alan was filming "Into the West" for TBS or whatever. So my guess is that they killed off Wash because of scheduling conflicts, but worked out a resaon in the movie to kill him off so it won't seem meaningless.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM

DINO

Shocked, can't watch it again. My DVDs are gathering dust.
Very very dark but exellent, apart from the gaping hole left in he crew dynamic.
Wash was my favorite character, didn't see it coming.

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