Book vs Wash (Spoilers for those that haven't seen the Movie) by ICEHQS

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Book vs Wash (Spoilers for those that haven't seen the Movie)

POSTED BY: ICEHQS
UPDATED: Sunday, October 23, 2005 16:53
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VIEWED: 6751
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Friday, October 21, 2005 1:28 AM

Any particular reasons why you folks like Wash moreso than Book? As i read these threads, there's a feel that Wash is loved more often than the Shepard. Granted Wash was the pilot of the ship, however Book had a story, a hidden past yet untold, that is what drives me somewhat bonkers Book feels incomplete, everyone here can guess at what Book was in his past. However, none of you can tell me that Joss have Book's past reviewed in literature.

Disheartened by Shepard's death.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 1:38 AM

MITHEL

I think the relative reaction is due to the manner in which they were killed.

Book died fighting (and successfully destroyed the ship that destroyed his home).

Wash died suddenly and without a chance. Many have made a great argument that Wash died heroically as the pilot with a fantastic landing saving everyone else. But it wasn't his bravery or piloting skills that were involved in his death. He just plain simply was unlucky. Wash's death was more of a shock tactic to make the viewers more tense and sad.

Thus myself (and many others) view Wash's death as completely unnecessary (and are thus outraged).

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Friday, October 21, 2005 3:47 AM

ONETRANSMISSION

Personally, I was more slightly more upset about Book's death. I wanted SO BADLY to have him in the movie more, and for him to live on so that one day he might reveal his secrets.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Wash as well and was totally shocked that he died.

This movie made me have an emotional breakdown on the drive home. I don't think I've ever been affected in such a way by a film. Damn you Joss! (Love you too!)

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Friday, October 21, 2005 3:54 AM

DONCOAT

There's no doubt that Wash was more popular than Book even before the events in the movie.

Wash is an everyman, a guy we can all empathize with. He's funny. He's a great pilot who never gets rattled at the helm. He's cute (or so I suspect -- I'm not an expert on male beauty). He wooed and won Zoe. And there's that mustache...

Book is less lovable. He's a man of the cloth, which makes some people uncomfortable to start with. There's definitely a dark past to him that we don't know much about. He can be a bit on the judgemental side (that special hell...) and he's a passenger, not an official member of the crew. I'm thinking he's not quite as attractive as Wash. He's older. And the hair is still there... waiting.

I'd say it's pretty understandable that Wash's death had more impact on many people than Book's. There are exceptions, no doubt. We loved all our friends aboard Serenity... but not all equally.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:17 AM

FRAY101

I've actually found it sad that all the outraged threads, on this forum and others, concentrate on Wash. Yes, he was a wonderful character and will be sorely missed (or not, depending on how Joss handles the sequel) but Book played a great part in Firefly too.

I'd been spoiled about Wash beforehand but not Book so that came as somewhat of a shock - I was also upset that he had so little screentime that non-Firefly fans wouldn't appreciate what an important part he'd previously played in the story.

But yes, I can appreciate that Book at least had a nobler death - which is elaborated on in the novel.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:24 AM

MER

I'm not sure why. I also like Book. With the Serenity crew, I like them all about the same even though I'm more concentrated on Jayne. I think the reason why I'm not too hung up on Book is that led a long life. Wash should be in his early 30's, late 20's. He just got his wife and started his life.

I did cry the 2nd time I saw Book's death, so I actually felt something there.

I really don't want any of the crew members to die, but Joss holds that power, not me.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:25 AM

GAMBIT3

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
There's no doubt that Wash was more popular than Book even before the events in the movie.

Wash is an everyman, a guy we can all empathize with. He's funny. He's a great pilot who never gets rattled at the helm. He's cute (or so I suspect -- I'm not an expert on male beauty). He wooed and won Zoe. And there's that mustache...

Book is less lovable. He's a man of the cloth, which makes some people uncomfortable to start with. There's definitely a dark past to him that we don't know much about. He can be a bit on the judgemental side (that special hell...) and he's a passenger, not an official member of the crew. I'm thinking he's not quite as attractive as Wash. He's older. And the hair is still there... waiting.

I'd say it's pretty understandable that Wash's death had more impact on many people than Book's. There are exceptions, no doubt. We loved all our friends aboard Serenity... but not all equally.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

I'd take exception to the whole "there's no doubt that Wash was more popular than Book" line. I personally liked Book more than Wash. I was never uncomfortable with him at all, and was always interested in his backstory.

I second, though, the poster who said that it was the WAY they died that made the difference, at least for me: Book died fighting, he died heroically. Plus, it was necessary to advance the plot to give Mal that "belief" that he had lost and that Book insisted Mal needed to regain to survive the current ordeal.
Wash died because well, take your pick:
-It's Joss' movie, and he can do what we wants.
-You had to be led to believe that people were going to die in this movie (I guess Book, the entire population of Haven, and all the crew's "hiding places" weren't enough).
-If you don't like it, you need to get over it.
-If you don't get it, you just ain't too smart...

ok, so those are just a FEW of the many things I've been told because I was unhappy with Wash's death.
I have no problem with his death, nor with Book's death. I have a problem with the way it was done for Wash. There was just no reason for it.

__________________________
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Friday, October 21, 2005 4:50 AM

FRAY101

Quote:
Originally posted by MER:

I really don't want any of the crew members to die, but Joss holds that power, not me.

I think that should be posted in all the "I hate you Joss, my life is over" threads! Because when it comes down it, it really is that simple.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:16 AM

PURPLEPIRATE

I also preferred Shepherd Book. I like Wash fine, along with the rest of the crew, but I think that having a preacher are on board is one of the genre-breaking elements that makes Firefly so special.

Gambit3, I must disagree.

Whether or not a "man of the cloth" makes people nervous, you can't hardly call Shepherd Book judgmental for the 'special hell' remark. He said that to keep Mal's hands off of (who appeared to be) an innocent, confused young girl. Sexual predation and child molestation are wrong. People who get nervous being told that should probably stop molesting!

Also, Book IS a member of the crew; Mal said so, just too late. While feeling truthsome, Mal even admits that Simon and River are members of the crew. Remember Jayne on the outside of the air lock on Ariel? They're all crew.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:39 AM

DONCOAT

Yup, I figured we'd be hearing from the "I liked Book better than Wash" crowd after my post. Please note that I did say there were exceptions. I was describing what I still believe to be the majority opinion, not every individual's.

In fact, I liked both those characters about equally. I too enjoyed the mystery about his past, and Book was pretty low-key about his faith, usually.

But not always. Many people who are not child molesters might take offense when someone suggests they might be (by, say, warning them about special hells).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 5:46 AM

SPINLAND

I say Book could take Wash, ten falls out of ten; it'd simply be no contest.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

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Friday, October 21, 2005 6:41 AM

MER

Quote:
Originally posted by fray101:
Quote:
Originally posted by MER:

I really don't want any of the crew members to die, but Joss holds that power, not me.

I think that should be posted in all the "I hate you Joss, my life is over" threads! Because when it comes down it, it really is that simple.

I usually don't end up saying anything in those type of threads. If someone is going to hate him, that's their problem.

Select to view spoiler:

Hell, he killed Tara, Doyle, Spike, Johnathon, Wash, and Book and I still like him lol.

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Friday, October 21, 2005 7:00 AM

FRAY101

Quite agree!

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Friday, October 21, 2005 10:35 PM

LIMINALOSITY

Quote:
Originally posted by ICEHQS:
[B there's a feel that Wash is loved more often than the Shepard.

This is all my opinion, I'm not claiming to read Joss' mind. Or anyone else's, Ok?

There's a variety of camerawork and business in Serenity that might be intended to help the viewer identify strongly with Wash. He's a cheerful regular guy who's good at what he does, hanging out with heros, he makes fun of Jayne for us, and he seems to feel a bit the outsider. After the Mule crashes into the cargo bay, reaver dead, everybody ok, there's a shot of Wash "We all here? What's going on?...Hello?" Wash in the far far left side of the frame. What a beaut, that one. Like us, he's a little left in the dust by the speed at which Mal and Zoe process the danger and decide the next step. In the movie, more than in FF, Wash is Mr Exposition. For example, after Book dies Jayne asks why the Alliance isn't waiting around for them, and Zoe turns to Wash and tells him "Get on the cortex, wav Lee Chin..." Wash with a look of concentration, trying to keep up, like we are.

All this makes it doubly hard for the viewer when Wash is staked at his finest moment, when we are all laughing -with- him on his 3rd read of the line. Ooooooh, the immediate guilt response that accompanies the shock and dismay (that was how it felt to me the first time anyway). I think a reason there are so many people posting on their hurt, anger, and feelings of betrayal might be more than anger at the loss of a favorite character. If some are feeling that Joss killed the character that most represented them, then it might hurt even more that Joss killed them when they were laughing in relief at the end of their finest, bravest moment. Anyway, that's how I see it.

Book is maybe harder to identify with; he holds himself apart from the others a bit in much of the show. He's in the family, but separates himself a little as a preacher or a counselor must in order to be most effective in what they do. Plus the mysterious past, possibly involving being a very bad person.

I liked 'em both, and they're still in my heart as much as they ever were.

Thanks for the opportunity to get this out, I've been waiting for someone to bring it up.

Bright 'n shiny cap'n, not to fret.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 7:39 AM

SPINLAND

I think that's a lovely analysis of things; thank you for sharing it with us.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 9:20 AM

CYBERSNARK

Didn't Joss once say that he based Wash on himself? Writing that scene probably hurt him as much as seeing it hits us.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 9:35 AM

DREAMTROVE

You're header is a spoiler. Maybe you should change it if you can.

Book, Wash, Spoilers, shouldn't appear in a header because everyone expects characters to die in the movie, and that to be the biggest spoiler. You've essentially just told everyone that Book and Wash die in the movie.

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 9:38 AM

SPINLAND

I believe the spoiler phase of the BDM is now long past; it's been out now for over three weeks.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

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Saturday, October 22, 2005 11:08 AM

INDIANABANZAI

Quote:
Originally posted by Spinland:
I believe the spoiler phase of the BDM is now long past; it's been out now for over three weeks.

Perhaps in some countries, but not all:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/releaseinfo

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 1:27 PM

VOLUNTEER

I think the question should be more why WASN'T the operative killed. He just walks away with two core character murders on his belt because he suddenly loses faith in the alliance? I say send an ear back to the alliance and ask for a ransom!

Muahahahaha!

In fact, I'm going to open a new post on this.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 1:50 PM

WILDHEAVENFARM

Wash was funnier and I for one was more keen to sleep with him than Book.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 1:54 PM

THESENTINEL

Sounds to me like a lot of folks are upset with the decision to kill two major characters in the Serenity film...

What did you want to see?

A film calls for something extradordinary. Something above and beyond what we've seen on the small screen.

Which of the nine tremendous characters that Whedon created would it have been OKAY to kill? And isn't it a bit more real that Wash DIDN'T go down in a "blaze of glory"?

One thing I really enjoy about Firefly is that the characters are likeable...the situations seem believable.

ALSO, I think NOT killing the operative leaves things wide open for a sequel OR perhaps the beginning of a new series.

I had heard the main thing that killed the TV series was poor placement. Can't remember what it was opposite of, but I've also heard the DVD sales have been phenomenal.

I wasn't a big Joss Whedon fan until he took on Astonishing X-Men...Not a big Buffy/Angel freak. From AX I jumped on-board the Firefly bandwagon and SINCERELY hope that Whedon and Minear can get something done to get the show back on the air!!!

Later

THE SENTINEL

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 3:04 PM

SEVEREN

Honestly my sorrow is equal for both the loss of Book and Wash. I think wash probably does have a bigger fan base and I completely understand. I feel that Books character is concluded though because I am convinced he was an operative. The more I think about it the more it makes sense.There are also alot of hints in the show that this was his previous occupation.I think there has been more talk of Wash's death because no one really saw it coming. I certainly didnt.

http://www.constitutionparty.com

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 4:35 PM

SMOKE

Book could take Wash anyday, but Wash is the best tyen mah pilot in the 'verse.

Smoke em, if you got em.

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Sunday, October 23, 2005 4:53 PM

BKEATING

Quote:
Originally posted by Volunteer:
I think the question should be more why WASN'T the operative killed. He just walks away with two core character murders on his belt because he suddenly loses faith in the alliance? I say send an ear back to the alliance and ask for a ransom!

Muahahahaha!

In fact, I'm going to open a new post on this.

I thought the same thing. I have a feeling that, in whatever realm this series continues (feature film or TV, hopefully something!), that the operative will become a new crew member to replace Book. Book, in my opinion, was a bounty hunter!

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