What are your thoughts on god? Part 2 by christhecynic

Quote:
Originally posted by stephani:
Glad to see that some people can talk about religon in a civilized manner! Makes ya proud to be a Browncoat! :)

Yeah it does, would be nice if everyone could do it though.

Quote:
As everything in nature has both female and male counterparts, it makes sense to me that it's the same with the Divine.

Nothing to do with god, just random trivia: I've been told that some species have as many as eight distinct sexes. (Never had the stomach to find out how that works.)

Quote:
I believe both (the Goddess and the God) are present in everything, including everyone, and aren't "above" us or "superior" to us because they are us.

This may be a stupid question, but if that is the case why are there two? I mean if they are everywhere, in everything, then why are they not one?

I can understand the belief that everything is god, I can not understand the belief that everything is two gods. If you can explain it to me I would love it if you would.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:19 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by stephani:
Now I didn't read much of the other thread, but here's where I stand, I believe in a Goddess and a God. As everything in nature has both female and male counterparts, it makes sense to me that it's the same with the Divine. I believe both (the Goddess and the God) are present in everything, including everyone, and aren't "above" us or "superior" to us because they are us.

Interesting. Is this a Taoist belief, some form of Wicca or just a personal assessment?

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
By special request here it is: part two.

Much thanks, sir.

The other thread was so long that by the time it loaded, I'd forget what I was going to say.

Maybe I'm the only one here with dial-up? I hope so. I wouldn't wish something as annoying as dial-up on anyone else.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:24 PM

BROWNCOATER

I personally don't think there's anything out there, but if there is, it does not and has never interfered or intervened with anything on this planet. My firm belief is no religion on the planet is based on anything devine. While some have wisdom, they are all man made.
I'm firmly in the camp of Malcolm Reynolds on the god issue.

I sometimes hear religous people say "Well people had better believe in God, because if there's no God then all of this doesn't mean anything".
Just because it might not mean anything doesn't mean there's a God.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:14 PM

There is no God or anything "supernatural".

Everything is within the natural world. If you find something you think must be outside nature, then the very fact you can see it, measure it, or observe it's effects on the world in any way means it is natural, even if you can't explain it.

There is no vaporous hominid floating above us somewhere running things behind the scenes. There is no higher power (at least of the conscious kind - a hurricane and a super nova are pretty powerful, but there's no purpose behind them).

Beyond the emotional effect they have on the individuals who use them literally, phrases such as, "Our Father in Heaven" and "Mother Nature" are just the personification of random acts of an indifferent natural world, used as representation of a higher authority and a metaphor to describe an incredibly complex natural system, respectively.

There's no evidence of any consciousness anywhere in the universe other than inside the brains of human beings (limited consciousness of various animals being an argument for another time).

Of course, absence of proof is not proof of absence. But considering the complete dearth of verifiable evidence when considering God, there's really no more reason to act as if he exists than leprechauns.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:31 PM

KENT

I'm an atheist, in that I'm not a theist.
This in itself (atheism that is) does not mean that I believe there is no god...
(The difference between not believing in something and believing there is no something is subtle when one tries to put it into language, but it's an important difference)

Then there's agnosticism.
Personally I never (or rarely) use the word to describe myself because it seems to me that either I don't understand what it means, or it's irrelevant to the discussion.
As I've understood it, gnosis is revealed spiritual knowledge... and this I do not think I have. In that sense I guess I would be an agnostic. But if this is the case, I also find it irrelevant to add this when discussing the existance of god(s), since it applies equally for me to unicorns, elves, and santa claus. And if someone asks me about santa claus I sure don't make sure to mention that I'm agnostic about flying reindeer.
If I've understood the concept of agnosticism correctly, then I find it a useless concept, because I'd be agnostic about everything (even the things I know, I don't claim is revealed spiritual knowledge).

There...

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 9:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
Then there's agnosticism.
As I've understood it, gnosis is revealed spiritual knowledge... and this I do not think I have. In that sense I guess I would be an agnostic.

I think agnosticism is more the belief that there isn't sufficient data to determine whether or not God exists.

TECHNICALLY, that would make me an agnostic too, but since I choose to live my life 99.9% secure in the knowledge that there is no God, I don't identify myself as such.

Of course, "atheist" means much more to some people than simply "non-theist", so I have to be careful about that label too.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:02 PM

KENT

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
I think agnosticism is more the belief that there isn't sufficient knowledge to determine whether or not God exists.

Yeah, there's a lot of different definitions of the word, as I've seen (almost as many definitions as there are agnostics).
But in the case of your definition one has to ask "what is sufficient?".

Personally I think the absence of evidence for a god or gods, plus the fact that gods historically have been human attempts to make sense of what they cannot understand through anthropomorphization, tends to lead me to the conclusion that there in fact is no god(s... only humans beings with good imaginations.

That's hardly bulletproof, but personally I find it sufficient to claim I there is no god.

I mean... If I had to bet on it, I know what I'd bet on, if we put it that way.

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Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:49 PM

MEENOL

But then, to bring up the old chestnut, you gain nothing. If God does exist and you're wrong, you lose everything. If you believe in a God and your initial accreditation is right, you lose nothing. But if you're wrong (there is a God) and you believe in him, you gain everything.

I believe there is a God, as laid out in the Bible (six-day creation and all). There's a lot of historical evidence to back up both the OT's and the NT's claims (although the explanation of the six-day creation I don't entirely understand because I'm not a relativity expert, and I've only ever found this idea in one place).

-----------------

No, THIS is what going mad feels like.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:00 AM

I'm like Kent, atheist as opposed to agnostic, but even if there would be a God for speculations sake I would just find it insulting that I or any other person should adhere to a higher power. If God is an authority, like he is in the bible, I wouldn't want to live my life by his rule or whatever. If my life belongs to God then what's the point? can you be free with the existence of a God?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:03 AM

MEENOL

Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
can you be free with the existence of a God?

No. But then you can't be free as a human being in any meaningful way; chains are always there, but the chains of a creator are the ones we're meant to have.

-----------------

No, THIS is what going mad feels like.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:04 AM

KENT

Quote:
Originally posted by Meenol:
But then, to bring up the old chestnut, you gain nothing.
If God does exist and you're wrong, you lose everything. If you believe in a God and your initial accreditation is right, you lose nothing.
But if you're wrong (there is a God) and you believe in him, you gain everything.

I say I gain the knowledge that I have only one life (and it is short), and thus know not to waste it away. To me, that's invaluable. So I would in fact lose everything there is, I'd lose all of my existance, if I chose to believe in a God and there wasn't one.

Then of course, you're basing your position on a false dichotomy. That is, "Either there exists no god, or my god exists". What if it's Allah? Or the snozzwoggler (who only bring unbelievers to heaven)?

Quote:

I believe there is a God, as laid out in the Bible (six-day creation and all). There's a lot of historical evidence to back up both the OT's and the NT's claims (although the explanation of the six-day creation I don't entirely understand because I'm not a relativity expert, and I've only ever found this idea in one place).

I won't get into this, because from experience I know it will go into a whole debate thingy, and besides, it would probably go way off topic, which I'm sure the OP didn't want.
But needless to say I don't feel there's any compelling scientific evidence for any of the supernatural aspects of the Bible.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:20 AM

MRBEN

Well - from what I've seen from this and Part1 (a quick skim read) I'm in the minority in that I'm a "fully paid-up" Christian. (By choice, rather than upbringing, that is, although I did have a Christian upbringing too)

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

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Monday, January 16, 2006 1:11 AM

(Posted by Meenol)

No. But then you can't be free as a human being in any meaningful way; chains are always there, but the chains of a creator are the ones we're meant to have.

Yes, but we're not chained to other people in that negative sense. Free doesn't mean "without connection to anything else", the equality between human beings is a part of what makes us free. There is no equality in the master-servent relationship between man and a supposed God, and it's therefore, in my opinion, an unwanted relationship. Life doesn't become precious because "God" can take it from us, but because it's all we have. But of course, if you're Christian or of any other religion you most likely believe in the "after-life" or an existence beyond life - so maybe it's difficult for us to see eye to eye.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 6:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Meenol:
But then you can't be free as a human being in any meaningful way; chains are always there, but the chains of a creator are the ones we're meant to have.

My sentiments, exactly.

I would much prefer a gracious and forgiving, perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful and loving God calling the shots (directing and restraining) my life than any (far from perfect) created being.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 6:54 AM

RIVER6213

I just wish God knew I existed.

I feel like someone who was sent on a mission, and then left behind enemy lines after the misson was completed.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 7:09 AM

CYBERSNARK

I'm kinda interested that no one's brought in the Gnostic Christian philosophy.

In the beginning there was God(dess), called Sophia (Wisdom). She tried to create another like her. This resulted in the creation of the Demiurge. The Demiurge couldn't recognize Sophia, and so thought it was God. This was the God of the Old Testament; jealous and vengeful. It created the world and us, and did all the other impressive things, then demanded to be worshipped.

Sophia is the God who created Jesus, to try to "fix" the Demiurge's flawed creation (or perhaps simply to exist within it --not stopping evil so much as making it impossible for evil to control everything).

Of course, there's also Satan in the mix.

I kinda feel sorry for him; he's always cast as the Prince of Lies. I don't believe he ever does. Everything Satan tells you is absolutely true. It's just not what you want to hear.

To go back to my post last thread (I gotta be somewhere, so I'll post more later), what I don't believe in is the concept of forbidden knowledge. I don't think there is anything we're not meant to know. There's just some stuff that we don't want to know, or aren't prepared to know ('cause we'd overreact to it or otherwise do something stupid).

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Nothing to do with god, just random trivia: I've been told that some species have as many as eight distinct sexes. (Never had the stomach to find out how that works.)

Well, there's the one sex that does nothing but referee. . .

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 7:37 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

Now then, this 'man is free' stuff...Man has free will. We can choose to go to the movie or do laundry. To kill or volunteer. To love or run away. To believe or not to believe. Free will. Choice. Logical, or illogical, thought. Emotions. If I were in some theological debate discussing the whys of free will, I would say that it's no fun to create something that has to rely on you 24/7. He/she gave us free will because he couldn't not give us free will. It just so happens that this free will led to the infamous apple incident and, as some believe, to our curse. You leave a child in a room, tell him not to open the box and he's going to open the box. Even the most well behaved child, given enough time alone in that room, will eventually open the box. Curiosity is part of free will. We have free will. The ability to think, consider, and reason. We are not tied. We tie ourselves to loved ones, work, society, and religion. We are free but choose to not be free because it's safer.

As for the bible being an historical document, that’s true to some extent. There are many real events and real people described in the Bible. However, there are also many universal myths in there too. Pandora and Eve. Deucalion and Noah. Random Zeus love child and Mary’s pregnancy (that’ll get me a stoning). I’m not trying to say the Bible is a children’s storybook, I happen to be Catholic, mostly, but I find it interesting that the entire world shares the same stories.

www.thatweirdgirl.com
---
"...turn right at the corner then skip two blocks...no, SKIP, the hopping-like thing kids do...Why? Why not?"

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Monday, January 16, 2006 7:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I just wish God knew I existed.

I feel like someone who was sent on a mission, and then left behind enemy lines after the misson was completed.

I know God exists, and I still feel like someone who was sent on a mission, then left behind enemy lines -- and without much (if any) hope of furlough. Although, I know that the mission isn't over. If the mission were over, I would be with my Lord. Apparently, I still have work to do.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:01 AM

CAPTAINCDC

I'm an agnostic. No one knows what happened before the big bang, we can only say what happened one second after the big bang. Therefore I can't say whether there is a higher power or not.

One thing I definitely believe is that NONE of the organized religions have it right. I think their beliefs are based on stories. They are myths and should not be taken literally.

Living in the bible belt makes it really tough to be an agnostic or atheist. People have the right to believe anything they want. We just need to be more tolerant of people's different beliefs.

---------------------------------------

The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:12 AM

MEENOL

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
I know God exists, and I still feel like someone who was sent on a mission, then left behind enemy lines -- and without much (if any) hope of furlough. Although, I know that the mission isn't over. If the mission were over, I would be with my Lord. Apparently, I still have work to do.

Keep going at it, my friend. And pray.

As regards the whole "tree of knowledge" thing, it wasn't knowledge in itself, the phrase "of good and evil" doesn't really do the sentiment justice; it was the idea that humanity could make their own minds up about what's morally right or wrong, without reference to God's absolute standard. It's not knowledge itself that is wrong, which is a dodgy sentiment, and something many atheists find incredibly distateful about the whole deal, and understandably so.

-----------------

No, THIS is what going mad feels like.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:24 AM

MATTIE

I know this may be a little cheesy to some, but I want to restate what I said in the first thread, especially since we believers seem to be outnumbered.

First off, I am LDS--that means that I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In colloquial terms/situations, most people refer to members of my religion as "Mormons"--in reference to the scripture we have called the Book of Mormon. Just a little side note so that if I come off sounding...what?...a little gung-ho(?) you know why.

I believe in God. It's as pure and simple as that. I look at my surroundings and marvel at how people can dismiss the idea that some divine person did not create this world, this universe, this home that we all share. The other night I saw the most beautiful sunset that I had ever seen in my life. Now, people can explain that with science, but I look at it and say that it isn't just chance. It's not just particles in the air reflecting the sun's light a certain and special way that creates such an amazing effect. And if you explain the phenomenon of the sunset I saw using examples and explanations from science, then it is my turn to ask a philisophical question and say this: who invented those particles? Where did they come from? You can't create something out of nothing. Even if the big bang theory is true--and I have a cool picture of God swaying his hand through the air and the particles in space arranging themselves--then SOMETHING had to catalyze that. Why not God?

I believe that God created all things--even the body which my soul inhabits. I believe that I am here for a divine purpose, that God sent me to this Earth for a reason. I believe in a heaven where I can live with God and all of his other beloved creations, and I believe that it is my goal here on Earth to overcome secularity in order to prepare myself spiritually for the day that I die so that I CAN return and live with my Creator.

I know that I have free will. However, I don't think that it's FREE. God is just and will judge mankind according to his actions, thoughts and feelings. Humankind had agency--the ability to make choices--but I believe that it came at a drastic price. The price I'm referring to is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Because Jesus died for the sins of the world, because he transcended below ALL things, mankind is able to repent--allowing an atonement for sins and allowing God to be merciful.

There is a hell. I would define it as a complete disconnection between the inevitable tie that humankind's spirit has with God's spirit. This hell can be experienced here on Earth and it comes when a person completely and totally denies God from their lives. I believe that a description of this hell would be a lack of joy in one's life. Now, atheists, don't crawl up my butt for saying that. This is what I believe. I'm not saying that everyone has to believe it too. And, I'm not saying that people who don't believe in God are bad people. That simply isn't true. If you aren't clear on that, ask me to explain myself better and I happily will, just don't tear me down on the thread.
Here's the deal. God:yes. Heaven:yes. Agency:yes.

My beliefs may be somewhat drastic to some. Others may think that I'm completely off my rocker. Maybe someone will read this and take confidence in what I have to say. It's possible that people will resent what I wrote. This is it, though. I believe in God, pure and simple. If you don't, or if you're not sure you do, that's cool. A question was asked and I answered because I feel strongly about what I believe and why.

I know that my religion requires faith, and I definetly have that. The faith that I have gives me hope every single day. That faith tells me that I am not alone and that I have a purpose here. It's cool to hear everyone's take on God. It makes me think--not question, just think.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I just wish God knew I existed.

I feel like someone who was sent on a mission, and then left behind enemy lines after the misson was completed.

That is one of the most beautifully sad things I've ever read.

:-(

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Meenol:
Keep going at it, my friend. And pray.

Thanks.

Ever willing to do the job -- just wish I knew what it was half the time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Meenol:
As regards the whole "tree of knowledge" thing, it wasn't knowledge in itself, the phrase "of good and evil" doesn't really do the sentiment justice; it was the idea that humanity could make their own minds up about what's morally right or wrong, without reference to God's absolute standard.

Exactly. The primary sin of mankind (and Satan before us) is pride -- that WE know what's best for us, and chose to disregard what God has said, to do what we want to do rather than what He told us to do.

Thing is -- most of us (myself included) never seem to learn from our mistakes. Is it any wonder the world looks at believers and mocks. We're hardly the best examples. But then -- neither were nearly all of the believers portrayed in Scripture.

It only goes to show that no one is beneath the grace of God. If He can use the likes of us, He can use anyone.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:21 AM

HAZE

I was brought up in Ireland in house of people who never went to Church. They where still Catholic

Im an Atheist, don’t feel the need to explain why, don’t feel the need to try and turn Religious types to my way of thinking. It’s a personal thing.

--------------------------------------------------
Who do you suppose is in there?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:25 AM

Every one of us is a slave to something.

Some serve hunger. Some serve sexual appetites. Some serve their thirst for knowledge. Some serve the needs of the people they love.

And some choose to serve God.

The difference is that the rewards of Earthly masters are temporary.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:25 AM

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Every one of us is a slave to something.

Some serve hunger. Some serve sexual appetites. Some serve their thirst for knowledge. Some serve the needs of the people they love.

And some choose to serve God.

The difference is that the rewards of Earthly masters are temporary.

Yes, but our hungers and our thirsts and our appetites are ours - it's what makes us human. God is an authority telling us what we should be and what to do - do you not see the difference?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:30 AM

LIMINALOSITY

I think the universe is very efficient in its design. Energy becomes matter, returns to a state of energy, on and on. I think energy is a way we see what might also be called information. I think that the information we create in our lives in the form of experience and emotion (as does a plant, a squirrel, or a cloud) is not lost when we are no more. I'm not saying that there is a me who gets to continue being me once my bones turn to dust, but rather, the information that was gathered and reflected on, played with, laughed about, cried over, is not lost. Within the freedom to act as we choose is the balance that must, I believe, eventually be achieved. To that end, I suspect that we are all bound to this creation, forever, and that ultimately we are one with everything.

I suspect the universe supports reincarnation as a path of growth of consciousness, but the ideas of 'planner' or 'plan' don't fit into my way of thinking about this, because those concepts would imply something having control over choice, and I see that as antithetical to the idea of an infinite universe. I see the whole of everything (the infinite) as all there is of plan: rules of structure and growth, and the need for ultimate equilibrium as with any successful system, but no ruler. Fractals appeal to me as a simple yet elegant system of support; additions of information are based on a firm and identical layer of support that came before. So, as a plant grows, putting out a single leaf, then again, then adding together what it already knows how to do, it puts out three leaves, then five, eight, and so on, learning from itself as it grows to make a unique variation of a basic idea. I suspect the whole may work in this sort of way. In a larger sense, because I think all information/experience is retained, I may not remember being me, but at some larger level, I will/do.

Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!
Aztecs used the term firefly metaphorically, meaning a spark of knowledge in a world of ignorance or darkness.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:33 AM

Not really. My hunger dictates that I eat. My exhaustion at the end of the day dictates that I sleep.

I can choose to follow God's plan or not of my own accord, just the same as I can choose not to eat or sleep.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Not really. My hunger dictates that I eat. My exhaustion at the end of the day dictates that I sleep.

I can choose to follow God's plan or not of my own accord, just the same as I can choose not to eat or sleep.

Yes, but you compared being a slave under our "mortal desires" to following God. And as you say, we can decide for ourselves if we want to eat or not but the fact that we are compelled to eat, or to have sex and so on isn't a negative as opposed to the positive of following God. You choose to follow an authority, I say we don't need that authority.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Not really. My hunger dictates that I eat. My exhaustion at the end of the day dictates that I sleep.

I can choose to follow God's plan or not of my own accord, just the same as I can choose not to eat or sleep.

the fact that we are compelled to eat, or to have sex and so on isn't a negative as opposed to the positive of following God.B]

huh? Something's positive and something's negative? What?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Not really. My hunger dictates that I eat. My exhaustion at the end of the day dictates that I sleep.

I can choose to follow God's plan or not of my own accord, just the same as I can choose not to eat or sleep.

the fact that we are compelled to eat, or to have sex and so on isn't a negative as opposed to the positive of following God.B]

huh? Something's positive and something's negative? What?

You said you served God instead of "serving" other "mortal desires". And what I meant was that we do not serve our desires instead of serving God. Our desires are an essential part of us (not an outside force) and we do not need to serve an authority such as God, who is separated from the human experience you and I and everyone else share.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Not really. My hunger dictates that I eat. My exhaustion at the end of the day dictates that I sleep.

I can choose to follow God's plan or not of my own accord, just the same as I can choose not to eat or sleep.

the fact that we are compelled to eat, or to have sex and so on isn't a negative as opposed to the positive of following God.B]

huh? Something's positive and something's negative? What?

You said you served God instead of "serving" other "mortal desires". And what I meant was that we do not serve our desires instead of serving God. Our desires are an essential part of us (not an outside force) and we do not need to serve an authority such as God, who is separated from the human experience you and I and everyone else share.

And that is where we disagree. I firmly believe that God IS an essential part of the human experience. In fact, I believe that every piece of human experience besides God is unimportant by comparison.

I despise authority and desire control over my own life as much as the next guy/gal. I think of God as more of a partner than as an authority figure.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 10:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Not really. My hunger dictates that I eat. My exhaustion at the end of the day dictates that I sleep.

I can choose to follow God's plan or not of my own accord, just the same as I can choose not to eat or sleep.

the fact that we are compelled to eat, or to have sex and so on isn't a negative as opposed to the positive of following God.B]

huh? Something's positive and something's negative? What?

You said you served God instead of "serving" other "mortal desires". And what I meant was that we do not serve our desires instead of serving God. Our desires are an essential part of us (not an outside force) and we do not need to serve an authority such as God, who is separated from the human experience you and I and everyone else share.

And that is where we disagree. I firmly believe that God IS an essential part of the human experience. In fact, I believe that every piece of human experience besides God is unimportant by comparison.

I despise authority and desire control over my own life as much as the next guy/gal. I think of God as more of a partner than as an authority figure.

God may be a part of your subjective experience or what you feel is something everyone SHOULD experience but the fact of the matter is; I've never "experienced" God (felt his presence, whatever - it's subjective) and you can't vouch for others having done so either. But we do know, you and I, that both of us experience hunger, thirst, desire, the ability of cognition, the ability to communicate with other human beings - those are the fundamental and unquestionable components we inhabit.

And you can't deny the fact that "God", if he were to exist, is an authority. Even if you see him as your partner, he couldn't be. The very fact that your God gave you life and has the power to take it away from you makes you stand on seperate ground, you're not equal, he has an "advantage" - which is a suitable term when talking about partners, as it were. God can judge you as if he's above you, as if his standards are above ours - how is that equal? or partner-like?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:22 AM

Well, I think we've made it clear that I won't convince you to think the way that I do. And I'm certainly not going to come around to your way of thinking.

I'm starting to feel a little under personal attack here, so I'm going to back away from this conversation for the time being.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:22 AM

MTNSCOTT

I am an atheist. I was raised in a Christian culture, but was not practicing. Through my own curiosity and search for truth, I too came to the conclusion that the “Bible is broken”. That being said I do recognize the place that religion and faith plays in our culture and I would not want to deprive that from anyone. ‘nuff said.

Now for a couple quotes:

Belief in God? An afterlife? I believe in rock: this apodictic rock beneath my feet.
E.A.

I always write with my .357 magnum handy. Why? Well, you never know when God may try to interfere.
E.A.

There has got to be a God; the world could not have become so f***ed up by chance alone.
E.A.

I hope this offended no one. The first reflects generally how I feel. The second is a commentary on Devine guidance versus free will. The last one can be interpreted many ways so take your pick …

Only the half mad are wholly alive!
E.A.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
There is no God or anything "supernatural".

I find it interesting that you group two things so different together. The idea of god as supernatural is sort of like calling gravity supernatural isn't it? I mean religions say that God shapes the universe, gravity shapes the universe too, yet it is hardly supernatural. (Pretend that gravity is real, curvature of space-time is just to wordy for that particular sentance.)

Quote:
Everything is within the natural world.

So says the Pope, I know (even though I am not Catholic.)

Quote:
Of course, absence of proof is not proof of absence. But considering the complete dearth of verifiable evidence when considering God, there's really no more reason to act as if he exists than leprechauns.

Dearth, fun word, thanks for introducing it to me. There is evidence against leprechauns. Not so for god.

-

If this seemed sarcastic sorry, you seemed to need to be set straight on some things. God as supernatural is just so ... odd.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:36 AM

FREERADICAL42

Hmm. We'll, we've gotten a few atheists, a few theists, even a mention of Pascal's wager.

I don't think Pascal's wager is really great as a reason to believe in G-d. I don't think G-d would appreciate that reason.

My belief is that on the simplest level, the traditional G-d exists. However, this is a very simple level meant for those who don't explore their spirituality further.

Beyond this world is a higher dimension, a dimension of the spirit. In this world, we are higher-dimensional beings (and I mean spatial dimensions here, for the mathematically oriented, think a three-d flatland with an n-dimensional soul crammed into each physical body) jammed into these bags of meat. These higher-dimensional beings, our souls, of which we are only a part, are all connected as emanations of a greater conciousness referred to henceforth as G-d. The physical, three-dimensional world is created by the application of spiritual energies by this being.

Our time here on earth is an attempt to shave off, by compressing ourselves into a lesser existence, certain impurities acquired by our souls. When we die, we are launched from three dimensional space into space of arbitrary dimension. We hurtle through this space until we completely reconnect with the higher consciousness; the journey from this world, through the higher space, to the new consciousness, has been called Hell, Purgatory, Sheol, Gehenom, what have you. It has been called this, but they are all metaphors for the inability to reconnect to the spiritual whole, which is the source of infinite bliss known as Heaven.

If we have not purified ourselves sufficiently through doing good deeds and bringing holiness and love to this world, our journey takes longer because we are "heavier" in higher-dimensional space. Some are so heavy that they cannot make it the whole way, and are trapped in "hell" forever, unable to reconnect, or as a slightly better fate, they fall back into compression into this world and are given a second chance.

So G-d as we know it is both greater than us, part of us, and the whole of which we are a part.

Alternatively, I have theorised that G-d arose from living beings evolving beyond the need for a physical existence and merging into one infinite, not-time-bound whole, then going back and creating ourselves.

Under both theories, the theme is that G-d is us, and we are a part of G-d. G-d is a great nurturer, a blanket, a stuff of everything. G-d does not rule. G-d simply is, was, and will be. Compared to that, the rule of man is nothing.

My proof? G-d does not need to prove his existence to me; my existence proves that he is there, but he has still chosen, through the wisdom of such infinite consciousness to give us a tiny inkling of his existence. This inkling, of course, is the giving of the bible to Israel at Sinai; a people would not have accepted a book that claimed a mass revelation to the entire nation if it had not happened.

"See, morbid and creepifying, I got no problem with, long as she does it quiet-like."

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Well, I think we've made it clear that I won't convince you to think the way that I do. And I'm certainly not going to come around to your way of thinking.

I'm starting to feel a little under personal attack here, so I'm going to back away from this conversation for the time being.

Yes, I think we can agree to disagree =)

And I really am sorry if you felt I was attacking you or being too aggressive, I apologize.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
I mean... If I had to bet on it, I know what I'd bet on, if we put it that way.

Bad bet, there can be no proof. If god showed up would that prove there is a god? No. People have claimed to be god before.

If everyone had a simultaneous vision of the same god saying the same thing would that be proof, hell no. Random chance and grouping more than adequately account for it. If that visions said, "Gravity will reverse itself as proof," and gravity did just that, is that proof? Not a bit. As Tiger said so well, "the very fact you can see it, measure it, or observe it's effects on the world in any way means it is natural, even if you can't explain it."

What would be proof of god? Life after death? Hardly convincing. Someone rising from the dead? Just a biological aberration. A reversal of entropy? Not a bit.

You can't prove god, you can't prove lack of god, fun huh?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
can you be free with the existence of a God?

The real question is can God be free? Decisions are based on self, self is based on genetics and experience (nature and nurture), if god does not have genetics that leaves it to experience, which is a result of outside factors. So here is god, whatever god was initially and all that god has seen and done determining the outcome of all decisions of god, which effect the world, which in turn effect god.

Where is the room for freedom? Can god be free?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:53 AM

Quote:
If this seemed sarcastic sorry, you seemed to need to be set straight on some things. God as supernatural is just so ... odd.

Of course God is considered supernatural. He doesn't follow the rules of nature - wine from water, bringing people back from the dead, parting a sea, or any of the other hundreds of miracles mentioned in the bibles of the world.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 11:57 AM

TREVOR

First off I love the discussion of religion, and really enjoy it when people can exchange ideas without personal attacks. Arguments are healthy in my opinion, but when it breaks down to telling others they are wrong, it gets personal. Not saying that happened here, just my observations of this form of discussion.

Now, to my beliefs. I do not believe, as another poster stated, that any of the religions have it right. I think all religious writings are based on beliefs of the time they were written, and moral guidelines for people.

There may very well be an all powerful being out there, I have no idea, although I personally have never felt anything to lead me to 'believe'. I think, if there is a God, he is both good and evil, kind and spiteful, jealous and forgiving. Basicaly, he is just like us. I do not believe in a Devil or Satan figure, nor in a Hell, neither do I beleive in Heaven. I don't beleive in spirits, ghosts, souls, etc.

That being said. I DO believe that religion should be taught in school, that prayer should be allowed in school, and in our government. Not just christianity, but every religion. No child was ever harmed for having knowledge, only by having knowledge forbidden. And the one true evil I beleive is not allowing knowledge to be gained, to not allow our children to weigh the merits of every idea, and form their own, educated, opinions.

Ok sorry, off my soapbox

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Meenol:
But then, to bring up the old chestnut, you gain nothing. If God does exist and you're wrong, you lose everything. If you believe in a God and your initial accreditation is right, you lose nothing. But if you're wrong (there is a God) and you believe in him, you gain everything.

I dislike this equation, it is over simplified, I mean consider the options:

I believe in god.
I don't believe in god.
I believe there is not a god.
I believe in god for fear of retribution.
I believe in god for want of reward.
I don't believe in god for want of social acceptance.
I believe there is no god for fear of the possibilty of god.
I believe only in what I can see, I have seen "proof" of god.
I believe only in what I can see, I have not seen god.

And so on.

Now consider the types of god:
God is an ass, no one is treated nicely.
God is selective, only lets in believers of a certain god.
God only dislikes people who believe there is no god.
God only dislikes people who believe in nothing.
God only likes people who believe in god.
God only likes people who believe out of faith.
God only likes people who believe what they believe out of pure motive.
God is fake

And so on.

Put every type of believer and every type of god into a graph, weight for probability based on past events, tabulate good vs bad outcomes, find the ones most likely to have favorable results, and then talk.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gravy:
Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
Well, I think we've made it clear that I won't convince you to think the way that I do. And I'm certainly not going to come around to your way of thinking.

I'm starting to feel a little under personal attack here, so I'm going to back away from this conversation for the time being.

Yes, I think we can agree to disagree =)

And I really am sorry if you felt I was attacking you or being too aggressive, I apologize.

No hard feelings, man.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:12 PM