So, what happened here... by FlipDog

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

So, what happened here...

POSTED BY: FLIPDOG
UPDATED: Friday, January 20, 2006 12:06
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 9557
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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:47 AM

Look, I don't want to be a buzz-kill...but what happened to all the inteligent conversations going on before the movie came out on DVD. It seems like the ol message board has turned into a gossip channel for all the new fans. No one talks bout three-dimensionality and character development. All we talk about it how much Fox sucks and how the rumors of the show coming back are either true or false.

Is anyone here still enthralled with the story?

No worries, everything's shiny. Just voicing an opinion.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:54 AM

MUIRGHEAL

Sure, Im one of your newbies but Ok, what do you want to discuss.
Lesse, personally I thought the tone of the BDM was way way to dark and took away alot of the accessability of the show. One of the main themes I love about the show is the whole Day to Day life feel of it. This is not some special adventure, no super mission or job, this is just these peoples lives. You have fully rounded characters and noone is 2 dimensional. Except maybe the Russian, he was a touch flat for me:)

Muirgheal
A Shiny Happy Person
"Ain't we just!"

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 10:58 AM

SAGRILARUS

I find that the movie dropped the dimensionality of the characters and went for the whiz-bang instead. So it makes a bit of sense that the crowd that are just getting on board now are less intense about the characters.

The original film Serenity (the two part episode) had very little flash but was super deep on the characters. In fact it was about 90% character-driven, which is what made the series such a powerful thing to watch. I have had to file the film under the "who cares what it's about just as long as the kids go"* category and try not to let it have an effect on my overall opinion of the series.

Short of a remarkable reversal, any continuation of the Firefly universe is likely to be a shadow of the original just due to the nature of the business. You can't expect the lightning to drop into the bottle again just because you open the lid.

Sag.

* References to Pink Floyd are few and far between these days, but I couldn't resist.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:06 AM

FLIPDOG

Also why I'd like to see a mini-series to be the continuation. though I think the movie was character driven mainly by Mal and River. It was about both of them finding out who they truly are and what they believe in.

And this is the type of things I'd love to talk about, character, story, cinematography, etc. But its hard when the gossip posts get topped and the useful posts get pushed off the front page and even off the Gen Disc page.

I'm all for the PF reference!

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:15 AM

WILDHARE

To be honest I'm glad they made the BDM... but

I too loved the everyday another day on the ship feel to Firefly. Characters had their place we all got to know them and see what they do and how they live.

The BDM pushed all the characters to the back to theme one character (River). This is done for big movie purposes I know. But it leaves very little to talk about. That and killing two very interesting characters cut a large portion of the conversation out.

Though the BDM was fun to watch and alittle nastalgic seeing our old friends doing their thing in the verse. It really was sad to see many of the characters almost take a non-existant roll.

"They tell you 'never hit a man with a closed fist,' but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:19 AM

MUIRGHEAL

I'm curious. Has there been any explaination of WHY the characters were killed off? It made no sense to me at all. It didn't propel the story forward, it didn't lead to any character development on the other characters parts. It was wasteful and just seemed a dagger in the heart for the sake of bleedin'.

Muirgheal
A Shiny Happy Person
"Ain't we just!"

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:19 AM

FLIPDOG

Yeah, but I think it gave closure to just about everything. Sure, characters have changed and been changed by certain events. And I too missed, day by day, job by job characters. Even Serenity herself took a back seat to the overlying theme.

And I like darkness (btw - you notice how the lighting was also darker?) as a cinematographic and story technique.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:29 AM

FLIPDOG

Quote:
Originally posted by Muirgheal:
I'm curious. Has there been any explaination of WHY the characters were killed off? It made no sense to me at all. It didn't propel the story forward, it didn't lead to any character development on the other characters parts. It was wasteful and just seemed a dagger in the heart for the sake of bleedin'.

It did lead to character development, especially for Mal. You get to see him fight the darkness inside, the part of him that wants to keep not believing. But he can't fight it, he is a good person inside, and his family is the crew. Which is why, (even though his attitude kinda sucks), he tells them if they want to stay, than thats where they stay and thats why they go to Miranda. It leads to the possibility of character development. Though Joss says that Alan isn't done with the crew, and will prolly return in a sequel. I'm thinking as a flashback or something to that.

***BTW - Be careful of the spoilers which has been mentioned in other threads as of recent

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:33 PM

WILDHARE

I didn't mind it being dark. That effect was cool considering they were fighing something dark. He gave credibility to the movie.

You can't fight reavers and an alliance operatives and have it all bright and shiny.

I also don't expect everyone to be happy. They are in real trouble I would expect the movie to reflect that.

I think it is safe to say. That it was not firefly if it had been. It really would have crashed at the theatre.

"They tell you 'never hit a man with a closed fist,' but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:38 PM

WILDHARE

I understood the death of Book.

That flowed with the story very well. It made sence to me and I accepted it.

The death of Wash was not so easy to understand or accept. in this case you are right it did seem very Romanesque in the frame work you stated blood for blood sake.

"They tell you 'never hit a man with a closed fist,' but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:42 PM

TOMSIMPSONAZ

Wash and Zoe were too close to making a baby and you know how annoying babies are on an airplane....imagine how bad it is on a spaceship with 9 people.

It was either kill one of them off or have an episode with lazy sperm or irregular vaginal cells, which would lead to another episode about surrogate mothers blah blah blah blah

Seriously people, duh

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:50 PM

WILDHARE

Well I posted earlier about Wash's death.

From a character development stand point it works because Wash was having some serious issues with Mal and Zoe's relationship to the point it was starting to screw up the crews dynamic.

So it made sense to be to kill him to preserve relationships.

I really liked Wash's comedic moments. If we get another story, I'm afraid it will be sorely missed.

Also, I loved the enhanced graphics of the movie. If only they could shoot the show with the same cinematic graphics… wow.. that would be something

"They tell you 'never hit a man with a closed fist,' but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:51 PM

NIRVANA

Wow. Talk about making someone feel welcome. Give people a chance to settle in whydontcha! If someone is new to the show, maybe they need some time to act a little giddy and then hunker down into serious conversation. Maybe you have been a fan for a long time, have watched each episode a million times and are over the fact that the show was cancelled. Some of us "newbies" aren't there yet. Of course, if you are hostile towards the new fans, why would anyone want to talk?

Besides, wouldn't new blood on the board mean more insights into a topic that some people may have talked to death after 2 years?

Now that I, like you, have voiced my opinion... onto the story!

One of the reasons the character development on the show is so fantastic is that it was superbly paced. You got to know the characters in much the same way you get to know people in real life... A little bit at a time. At least that's how I do it.

I think the small quirks and eccentricities the characters had was also part of the show's brilliance. Heros can be goofy and clowns can be deadly serious. For instance, the scene where Jayne puts on that stupid hat his mum knit is brilliant!

Also, the dialogue and story point towards so many other backstories it is almost painful now that the show is over. I mean, who doesn't want to know more about Preacher and his mysterious past! I think that was what hooked me ... the notion that each episode was going to reveal a little more about the crew and their world.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:59 PM

1978

I saw an interview with Joss and I think that a lot of people have seen the interview where he says that the Movie and other development will be the same but it had to be different than the TV show.
That being said I can see what he means becasue Mal is a little darker but at the same time if you pay attention he is the same kinda. In his personality and sense of humor but you did see a side of Mal that only came out once or twice in the TV show.

I did think that the character development was a tad flat but after seeing the TV show I kinda understand. You did not have to see the TV to see the Movie but it kinda helped. Kinda.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:45 PM

FLIPDOG

My point for starting this thread (assumming someone would've jumped on me earlier than this) was to try and get an intelligent conversation started. Instead of 14 different, but on the same topic, threads about why they should make another movie.

I was equally as giddy when I joined up, but I didn't start 32 threads about some gossip about the characters.

Anyways, excellent point about the baby issue. Though, it makes for great story and Zoe development. I don't think that Wash's death will be for nothing. Remmeber too that Joss made the movie for the story, not something that would appease all the fans. *cough cough Star Wars cough*

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:07 PM

SAMEERTIA

So start threads that target things you want to talk about.
I mean, we could all talk about Firefly all day, right?
I mean...er... I don't! That would be like all wierd and stuff. But I mean, some of us could.
So bring it on. You lead, we'll follow.

I don't want to see Zoe pregnant - cute baby dynamics, angsty widow dynamics, blah blah blah. I mean, some of the jokes and one-offs that come to mind are really amusing, but in the long run, not so good for Serenity or her crew.

However, what if Zoe discovers that Wash had frozen his sperm prior to becoming a pilot and has to make the decision to choose to have his child or stay with Mal?

THAT would make an interesting side story, I think.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:47 PM

PRINCESSROHANNEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Wildhare:
I understood the death of Book.

That flowed with the story very well. It made sence to me and I accepted it.

The death of Wash was not so easy to understand or accept. in this case you are right it did seem very Romanesque in the frame work you stated blood for blood sake.

"They tell you 'never hit a man with a closed fist,' but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

Whedon said in the commentary for the BDM (yes, I listen to commentaries, so sue me) that he needed someone to die at the hands of the reavers in that final setting, and Alan Tudyk was all about it.

Whedon realized (correctly, I believe) that the danger wouldn't seem as real if we didn't actually watch one of them die. That death put a seed of doubt in our minds: "If he can die, then any of them could. Who's gonna get it next?"

Also, that was a classic Whedon moment. If you've ever watched any Buffy, you know how good he is at making you care about the characters and then tearing the rug out from under your feet. As much as it tore into my heart, I actually loved that moment.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:52 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:
However, what if Zoe discovers that Wash had frozen his sperm prior to becoming a pilot and has to make the decision to choose to have his child or stay with Mal?

Uh...

They don't even need to go that far (artificial insemination, etc). I mean -- Zoe can already be pregnant naturally, right?

That's the way it works, doesn't it? I mean -- as husband and wife, they have been together -- uh, physically? Right?

"I was aimin' for his head."

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:11 PM

JOSSIZBOSS

I loved the everyday feel to the tv show as well. However, we know that the show was heading towards darker days eventually. And yes, I agree that the movie had a very different feel from the show, but they were dealing with the realities that had finally caught up to them.

If there is ever another television show that allows us to have prolonged character development and more slowly developed stories, I don't believe that FF flans need to worry one iota.

Joss Whedon is a genius. There have been times in the past when I doubted (JIB

)and he has proven me wrong (brilliantly, I might add) every time. Sometimes I would think to myself that there was no possible way he could resolve something or complete a story arc, but he always came through.

A new series would be incredibly interesting. Just think about the development of all the characters after having lived through the events in the movie. Think how much closer they will all be and how they will struggle to find their role in the changed 'verse they now find themselves in (changed both on a personal scale and on a societal scale). My mouth waters like a Pavlovian dog at the prospects.

Even the possibilities for a movie or a miniseries are exciting. But I agree that they would not have as much development due to the contraints of the medium. Heck, I'll take whatever I can get!!

JIB

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:27 PM

SAMEERTIA

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:
However, what if Zoe discovers that Wash had frozen his sperm prior to becoming a pilot and has to make the decision to choose to have his child or stay with Mal?

Uh...

They don't even need to go that far (artificial insemination, etc). I mean -- Zoe can already be pregnant naturally, right?

That's the way it works, doesn't it? I mean -- as husband and wife, they have been together -- uh, physically? Right?

"I was aimin' for his head."

Cartoon, I think you're missing my point.
I don't WANT a pregnant Zoe story-line! I really really really think it's a really really really BAD idea!

What I would like to see is Zoe being faced with the choice of being able to have a child or staying on Serenity. THAT would be a great story arch! No way in hell Zoe would stay on Serenity with a baby, not after having lost Wash. That would be incredibly stupid and stupid is something Zoe isn't.

A mothers instinct is to protect her child. Zoe's JOB is to protect Mal and the ship. She cannot protect her child onboard Serenity. Wash knew this, and with his death, Zoe really has to realize it, too.

If Zoe is already pregnant at the end of the BDM, then that leaves - what? An entire season of pregnancy gags, followed by an angsty birth and Zoe leaving the ship?

OR it leaves a totally unbelievable story-line in which a protective woman like Zoe tries to raise a baby on a ship that's regularly in trouble with the law, and where she herself survives day to day in life and death situations.

We don't need a season of "Oh.. cute baby on Serenity! See Mal try to change a diaper! See Jayne refuse to pick it up! See Kaylee and Inara reduced to baby-sitter roles! See Simon start looking at Kaylee and thinking that she'd make a fine mother for his children.... oh...no, THAT would be good. But the rest of it? BAD IDEA!

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:44 PM

DC4BS

But Kaylee already HAS her baby... Serenity.

------------------------------------------
dc4bs

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:46 PM

MISBEHAVIN

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
...Whedon realized (correctly, I believe) that the danger wouldn't seem as real if we didn't actually watch one of them die. That death put a seed of doubt in our minds: "If he can die, then any of them could. Who's gonna get it next?"...

And it worked perfectly. I saw the movie without knowing Firefly, but came to love the crew by the time that certain character died near the end. I thought, "This is going to end really badly. No one's getting out of here." That's what sets the work of this guy above the rest. Joss said somewhere that he plays hardball with his characters.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:46 PM

MISBEHAVIN

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
...Whedon realized (correctly, I believe) that the danger wouldn't seem as real if we didn't actually watch one of them die. That death put a seed of doubt in our minds: "If he can die, then any of them could. Who's gonna get it next?"...

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:38 PM

JOELIST

I have to disagree that the movie neglected character development, to the contrary there was a LOT of it.

Mal is, so to speak, alive again. The whole Miranda episode, propelled by the death of Book, has revived in him the sense of purpose he had lost in the war. You could even see it when he took the controls at the end of the movie; despite the deaths he seemed more confident and content.

Simon and KayLee are finally together, and each compliments the other perfectly.

How about Jayne doing something not for the $$$ at the end of it?

Zoe has issues she will have to face about losing Wash; we saw them a bit in the fight with the Reavers when she got wounded in part because she was out for revenge.

Then there is River. We saw two big things happen in the third act (when the crew were trying to hold off the reavers in the passageway):

1) River did freak out from all of the Reaver minds impacting on hers, but she was able to get control of it and compose herself, something she had never been able to do before. She actually came out of it without anyones help.

2) When River went to get Simon's medkit, got trapped with the Reavers then destroyed all of them, we saw something else totally new for her. In the barfight she was triggered by a subliminal message and in the gunfight in war Stories she was not really there, so to speak.

Against the Reavers, she was fully there and put herself into combat mode. She also got herself out of it when the Alliance forces finally broke in the compartment.

I think that the combination of knowing what the images in her mind are and Simon's medical treatments have given River a new measure of self control.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:54 PM

FLIPDOG

I agree with that a lot, as posted before. Though I tend to see, with the exception of the freakout, River as okay when the truth is revealed on Miranda. She throws up and says "I'm fine." and then reiterrates it, I think meaning, she's truly fine, because what's been tearing her up inside has finally been released.

As for the thread itself discussion. I don't need to lead the way. Many of my fellow Browncoats have already done so by creating a great discussion about character development.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:34 PM

SINGATE

I can't imagine River is going to be 100%. Better yes, but from Simon's analysis in the diagnostic lab on Ariel and what the doctor at the beginning of the BDM says on neural stripping there is no way she is in top form.

It is good to see her doing more than cry and sputter crazy thought fragments. And before anyone freaks I do like her character on the series.

I think her mental state is still going to be a very complex tangle and we all want to see what else Joss has in mind for her.

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:07 AM

WILDHARE

True.. but I love the visualization of the vomit scene. That she is expelling something from inside that had to get out. It was a great exclamation point to the moment.

As for you leading the way, I’m all for someone bringing to the table something interesting to talk about. I for one believe it is pointless to spin our wheels in the hole of will they wont they make another move/show. Time in the end will answer that question and for now we have 13 episodes and a movie.

"They tell you 'never hit a man with a closed fist,' but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:52 AM

JERRYT

I think another moment when something clicked in place for Mal, was during his speach to the crew before leaving Miranda. He says along the lines of "the Alliance wants to make people (pauses a beat and looks right at River) better, and I don't hold with that."

I think that at that moment Mal realises the answer to the question Jayne asked after the bar fight when he asked Mal, "why did you bring her back on the ship?", and he didn't have an answer. Why he has been protecting River all this time even though it has been a danger and burden to the ship and crew. He realises that River is as much a victim of the Alliance as the people of Miranda were. The Alliance is still trying to make people better and/or using them for their own ends.

JerryT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'll be in my bunk"

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:05 AM

CHRISPV

Well, with regards to River, I don't think that "normal" was ever an option. I'm going through the novelization, and a good point is brought up. River is a genius far beyond anything rational, and couple that with her psychic abilities, and she can basically learn and know anything almost instantly. Have you ever considered what a mind-numbing bore life must be under those circumstances? Just to keep herself going, she'd probably devote much of her intellectual thrust to contemplating the kind of philosophical questions of meaning like we get with the whole stick/gun incident in Objects in Space. When literally everything is an open book to you, from physics to human thought, you will by definition see the world very, very differently. River's basic conceptions of the mind and reality itself are fundamentally altered from the average person's, with or without Alliance tampering. Personally, I'd lay good odds on the biggest thing the Alliance did to her mind was strip away the pretense and defenses. We're seeing what goes on in her head, uninterrupted, like a literal stream of consciousness. It's River, without social niceties. Hopefully, after Miranda, she's going to able to bring some of those niceties back, if only for her own sake.

As for Mal, I think he's not as bad as he likes to think he is. He can make cost/reward judgements about others in proper military fashion, such as the guy he shoots during the Reaver raid, but when it comes to the crew, he's a softie. Kaylee is right, he is fundamentally a nice man. After all, he wasted quite a bit of time getting all of those people into the vault in the BDM. And he was willing to negotiate with the fellow down regarding the best injury to impress the Alliance with. I think the BDM just shows us a desperate Mal, trying to keep food on the table for his family, failing, and still reeling from losing the woman he cares for and the man who acted as his surrogate father figure/conscience. He's still that generally good man, but he feels like he's floundering.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal, Fox!

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 6:05 AM

WILDHARE

Good point, I never thought of that.

Thanks for mentioning it.

"They tell you 'never hit a man with a closed fist,' but it is, on occasion, hilarious."

- Capt. Malcolm Reynolds

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 7:33 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:
Cartoon, I think you're missing my point.

Oh, I excel at that.

No, seriously, I got your point, and I wasn't disagreeing with you. I think a baby would complicate the story (were it to progress). I was just saying that they wouldn't have to go to extraordinary means to bring a baby into the story (if that were their intention), as Zoe could already be "with child".

My statement was not an endorsement of that possibility, just stating that it might be so.

"I was aimin' for his head."

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 8:31 AM

NIRVANA

I have to agree that to bring a baby into the story would be a huge mistake. Waaaayyy too soap-opera like.

So many storylines I have seen on TV start to tank the minute a main character gets pregnant (even Farscape, which tried to make it original with the whole baby transfer thing barely made it work ((and what was with the giving birth in a leather body suit????)). Likewise, the worst season of Deep Space 9 was when Kira was preggers.

Babies end up being silly props for the actor and seriously limit available plot lines in my opinion. There starts to be way too much dialogue about feelings and such, which is fine, but part of what I like about Firefly is that there is a healthy balance of action/adventure and witty dialogue. Do diapers, bottles burping, nappy time, tickle fests and booties make for good TV? Not in my opinion.

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:07 AM

NUCLEARDAY

Yeah, I guess a more abbreviated pacing to the character development is going to be a side-effect of switching from a series to a movie. Kinda why I really liked Whedon doing a series: each and every one of those episodes you never saw a character that didn't play a role in the story at some point. (Off the top of my head example: would have been easy to just write-off Inara every once in awhile and not see her all episode and say she's just off in the shuttle with a client, but even then they find ways to tie her back in: ala Jaynestown.)

Still, the movie had a lot of plot to run through, and alot of storyline to tie up. Kinda took the BDM as a compression of what we should have seen in the following one or two seasons. Great gorram movie, though; I was getting all misty-eyed near the end there.

On the characters getting killed: I had an easier time with Book than I did with Wash, though obviously Wash's was slightly more sudden. (And of course right after one of his best moments: what I always liked about Wash was that it could have been easy to write him in as just another wise-cracking sci-fi pilot character, I really liked how in those tense piloting moments he got all calm and professional.)

How I came to terms with that was this, though: say the final moments of the movie were drawn out in the last episode of a season two or the opening of a season three. Wouldn't be the first time a show killed off a character to get some ratings, and done right it can work rather well. in that context it can make a bit of sense. The next season would have given Zoe some more depth as she deals with the loss, and you could always bring Alan back to shoot a flashback or two.

Come to think of it, there weren't many other characters you could have gotten away with offing like that. Can't kill Mal, 'cause he's too pretty. Inara would need to stick around to delve deeper in the whole Mal/ Inara arc. Ditto with Kaylee and Simon, plus Simon needs to be around to help out River. And you gotta keep Jayne around, you know, to be Jayne.... and kill stuff, right? So that leaves Zoe or Wash. Alot of Wash's depth was in relation to Zoe, so killing her off would have meant looking for another facet of Wash's character. So long story shorter, I guess it makes sense to me. Still sad about it, but I can live with it.

Book, I would have liked to have felt more for, because that could have been a real compelling foil to Mal's character. We know Book has a hairy past, but never got enough clues to know exactly what. At first he sort of got to me in the show, seemed a little too heavily played as the conscience for the crew. Then as you get further it made more sense, here's someone with a past so checkered that he has to try to keep everyone on the straight and narrow, for the sake of his own salvation. Perhaps in the past he faced alot of the same trials Mal faced, only he made all the wrong decisions? Was he in the war? Did he work for the alliance?

Anyways, that's my two cents.

--"Browncoats don't die, they get cancelled."--

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:08 AM

FLIPDOG

I agree...Baby = Bad. Plus, great stories like this thrive on conflict, and that conflict between Zoe and Wash was so great and leads to some great development. Granted, we don't have that anymore...but it made for good depth and gooooood watchin'

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:22 AM

CYBERSNARK

One significant thing a pregnancy/baby could do is get Zoe off the ship. It would be the one thing that would override her loyalty to Mal --this is her "mission."

How would Serenity function without Zoe? She's Mal's last link to his old life, and, in many ways, his conscience. She's also the proverbial "short leash" that is necessary to control Jayne. Suddenly Jayne would be indispensible (God help us).

Meanwhile, how would Zoe survive on Wherever-it-is-she-settles? Has she ever really left Mal's side since Serenity Valley? And now here she is, out on her own, where Mal can't well follow.

Quote:
Originally posted by Joelist:
Against the Reavers, she was fully there and put herself into combat mode. She also got herself out of it when the Alliance forces finally broke in the compartment.

I think the most telling part of it was River's deliberate look toward Mal. She was waiting for his cue; she'd have been more than willing to keep going, to throw herself at the Alliance squad, if Mal had given the signal. . .

She is a weapon, but she's very deliberately putting herself in Mal's hands. She trusts him to use her abilities wisely.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:48 AM

JOELIST

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
One significant thing a pregnancy/baby could do is get Zoe off the ship. It would be the one thing that would override her loyalty to Mal --this is her "mission."

How would Serenity function without Zoe? She's Mal's last link to his old life, and, in many ways, his conscience. She's also the proverbial "short leash" that is necessary to control Jayne. Suddenly Jayne would be indispensible (God help us).

Meanwhile, how would Zoe survive on Wherever-it-is-she-settles? Has she ever really left Mal's side since Serenity Valley? And now here she is, out on her own, where Mal can't well follow.

Quote:
Originally posted by Joelist:
Against the Reavers, she was fully there and put herself into combat mode. She also got herself out of it when the Alliance forces finally broke in the compartment.
I think the most telling part of it was River's deliberate look toward Mal. She was waiting for his cue; she'd have been more than willing to keep going, to throw herself at the Alliance squad, if Mal had given the signal. . .

She is a weapon, but she's very deliberately putting herself in Mal's hands. She trusts him to use her abilities wisely.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

I agree she was meant to be a weapon. what has changed is she appears to be able to control the use of the weapon; I imagine that now that she understands about Miranda a subliminal trigger won't be able to set her off again.

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Friday, January 20, 2006 11:59 AM

FLIPDOG

I don't agree that she's only a weapon. She's still a person and I don't think that Mal has "control" over her. I think she really trusts him, (more than Simon), but Mal wouldn't have had to give the order...the look on her face was one of "I could still take all these guys."

She makes her own decisions, which is why she is willing to help out in the beginning. YOu notice no protest, just a calm, "I know, I'm going for a ride." And the look she gives Zoe...she's in control there, willing to help out. My thoughts on how that came to be. Mal goes to River, asks her if she would like to help. Simon finds out and thats the beginning of the movie.

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Friday, January 20, 2006 12:06 PM

JOELIST

Quote:
Originally posted by FlipDog:
I don't agree that she's only a weapon. She's still a person and I don't think that Mal has "control" over her. I think she really trusts him, (more than Simon), but Mal wouldn't have had to give the order...the look on her face was one of "I could still take all these guys."

She makes her own decisions, which is why she is willing to help out in the beginning. YOu notice no protest, just a calm, "I know, I'm going for a ride." And the look she gives Zoe...she's in control there, willing to help out. My thoughts on how that came to be. Mal goes to River, asks her if she would like to help. Simon finds out and thats the beginning of the movie.

Right.

she was intended by the Alliance to be a weapon, but she is also a person. And following the events of Serenity she has more control over herself and her reflexive reactions.

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