RE: by milford

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

RE:

POSTED BY: MILFORD
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 22:08
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Monday, January 23, 2006 5:03 PM

I was watching the Ariel the other day, and it got me to thinkin about what would have come from the friction between Mal and Jayne? I think it would have eventually become a big problem. I know we were supposed to think that Jayne would have started down the wrong track but had a fit of nobility and recanted at the end, but this is Joss Whedon we're talking about. The same man who killed Wash and Book with no indication that it was coming. Remember what happened with Wes on Angel? He had some issues and he was good from the beginning. Anyhoo, what do you guys think?

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Monday, January 23, 2006 5:06 PM

CARTOON

Well, Mal seems to have put that incident behind him (I don't recall him bringing it up after that episode). And Jayne certainly seems to have matured just a little in the movie. Of course, Jayne's maturing means he's now a 3 year old instead of a 2 year old.

"Did you ever see such a lazy crew?"

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Monday, January 23, 2006 5:24 PM

AERIN

Mal did mention the incident in OiS, when Jayne says he didn't want the girl on the ship in the first place and Mal asks (in a threatening tone) if that's the direction Jayne wants the conversion to go in.

I think there will alwasy be friction between Mal and Jayne, but for some reason Jayne really respects Mal (not that he shouldn't). Jayne talks back and grumbles, but in the end he does what Mal (or Zoe) wants without a whole lot of resistance. I have often wondered how this relationship developed. I'm guessing it's because of the feeling of family on the ship (Kaylee), which is something he hasn't had since he left home. The hat incident made it clear that his family is very dear to him, odd as that might seem for a mercenary.

That also makes me wonder about his relationship with River. From some of the post-Ariel scenes in Firefly and Serenity I get the sense Jayne sort of likes River (in a non-special hell way), but he's scared of what she means for his Serenity family. She could easily be their undoing, and Jayne would sacrifice his standing with the crew rather than have them broken up by the Alliance. I'm not sure Jayne's really scared for himself - he's afraid of losing this new family. If he was so worried about River getting them all busted, surely he could find another job. He's good at his work. If River wasn't so dangerous to them I bet he'd be really big-oaf protective of her.

That got long. My apologies!

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Monday, January 23, 2006 5:39 PM

RAVENHAIR

I was just thinking about starting a thread like this!

I always felt that Jayne saw River and Simon as a threat to the dynamics of his established 'family' and it wasn't until the BDM that he saw them as part of that family. River as a weapon is something he can relate to.

I just re-watched Serenity (the pilot) and wondered about the offer that Dobson made to Jayne. Isn't the amount of money to buy a ship a large enough amount to make Jayne turn on Mal? Jayne told Mal that it wasn't enough, but I think he had no intention of turning on Mal. Turn on River and Simon, sure, but not Mal. Until Mal makes it clear that turning on the Tams in Ariel is the same as turning on him, Jayne didn't see it as betraying his captain.

Then again, didn't Joss say that the bad guys wear the hats?

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Monday, January 23, 2006 6:46 PM

VIOLETRIX

i was at (my first!) shindig a coupla weeks ago and i was thinking about this too! funny, all these great minds, thinkin' alike...
as i was watching jayne running around, checking everyone's seatbelts, i thought: i bet he'd have ended up being the mother hen of them all. you know, the one who took care of everyone, in his own jayne-like manner. i know joss meant for him to be the a**hole of the show, but he just didn't turn out that way, did he? i heard joss compare him to cordelia from buffy, but i always hated cordelia, so i rejected that right away.

that's my two cents. well, maybe like one and a half cents. or less.

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:14 AM

MILFORD

Those are some good points, however, I'm wondering what would have happened if the pressure had been too much for Jayne. I know he seems loyal to Mal, but I think that's just because they're on the same road right now. I could easily see a season finale in which Jayne finally gives in and betrays the crew, then has to deal with the remorse. A sort of "I thought this was what I wanted, but now I see I had it all" type of thing. Then I think we'd see what Mal was really made of, depending upon whether he accepted Jayne back or not. Better yet, I think Mal would take him back, but would have to constantly defend him to the rest of the crew. I don't know. Thanks to those turds at Fox, we'll never know.

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:28 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
I know he seems loyal to Mal, but I think that's just because they're on the same road right now.

Could it have anything to do with the fact that Mal let Jayne have his own bunk?

That "turning of Jayne" scene from "Out of Gas" was precious (not "precious" in an "I want the Ring of Power" sort of way). One of my favorite 20,000 scenes from the series.

""Up 'til the punching, it was a real nice party."

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:33 AM

MILFORD

The real question there is did Mal let Jayne have his own bunk, or did no one want to bunk with him? He doesn't exactly come accross as hygenically aware.

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:35 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
The real question there is did Mal let Jayne have his own bunk, or did no one want to bunk with him? He doesn't exactly come accross as hygenically aware.

Not exactly a whole lotta room in Jayne's bunk -- oh, with Vera, and all.

"See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown."

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 4:41 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

"King Jayne," has a nice ring to it...

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:06 AM

TEETHGRINDER

When the money's good enough... good enough for Jayne to turn on Mal... Gorram it!!! That would really be an interesting day!!! Imagine Jayne betraying everybody in the crew for his 30 pieces of silver. Everybody's locked down in an alliance facility and all... waiting for their trial blah blah blah... And then Jayne realizing how much of a family the crew really is to him... little flashbacks here and there... changes his mind (and heart)... and then finally, as only Jayne can ( with Vera of course)... He turns around.. raise his own version of hell... rescues everybody and saves the day. Needless to say... I'm cheesy/ hokey but that would be my take on a future episode if I was a writer. I don't think that it will ever happen though co'z Mal clearly has him checked on Ariel and Jayne should feel lucky and special to be given another chance. Sigh... Who know's?? Maybe they (writers)can add a
twist and make it that Jayne betrays everybody not for the money but be because he had to. Maybe his Mother(family) was being kept hostage by the alliance/ an operative. Regardless... I would love to see Jayne (with Vera) save the day.
By the way... The scene in the pilot episode when
Simon was working on Kaylee (Infirmary)and Jayne was watching from above (not a very comfy position-- but he was still there!)... the worried look on his face... That was special.
Jayne's cool!!! He's my kinda stupid!!!

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:13 AM

MILFORD

Very interesting. Obviously Jayne is conflicted, that's what makes him intersting. That, and his buffonery. But what would push him over the edge? Money, maybe, but that might seem to obvious. The argument he has with Mal on Serenity shows that he still has some resentment towards him. What if Jayne is completely amoral, only sticking with the crew for the adventure? He doesn't seem to have the same moral compass that Mal and Zoe do, not the general good nature of Wash. He definitely lacks the the guiding light Book enjoys, and is missing the familial bond that Simon and River enjoy. Kaylee's bracketed out because she's just all around good. BUT, what if it isn't Jayne at all who betrays them ultimately, what if it's Kaylee? Like you mentioned, caught between a rock and a hard place because of a family issue? Wouldn't that be something?

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:31 AM

TEETHGRINDER

Betrayal is a great ingredient for a great story but only ( I think!)when it involves either death, redemption, or both. Although it's unlikely that any member of the crew will betray the rest for financial gain... There are other reasons. Kaylee?? That would certainly be unexpected... Hmmm... Great twist. Sigh... If only we can have more episodes. The cast will certainly pull it off as only they can. What an episode that would be??!!! My only concern is... Death/ Redemption/ or both issue. We don't need any more of our crew dying. As long as we don't loose anybody... It's all shiny!

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:42 AM

CYBERSNARK

Actually, Jayne has a pretty interesting arc throughout the BDM.

At first, it seems he has kinda adopted River (when she starts freaking out in the bank, Jayne immediately runs over to make sure she's okay). As soon as they get back, Simon clocks the captain (which Jayne might dislike, given his loyalty to Mal), and Mal summarily kicks the Tams off the boat.

Jayne's turning point is the Maidenhead sequence. When Fanty and Mingo are commenting on Mal's unreliability, watch Jayne's face --he's understanding their point. I think that's when the seeds of this particular rebellion are planted.

Then he gets his ass (and head, man-parts, and overall dignity) handed to him by River, who it turns out has been really dangerous all this time, and Jayne having just started to actually care about her, he feels kinda betrayed.

He sees Mal flyin' them all into a confrontation with the Operative, and likely remembers Fanty and Mingo's comments. This is what brings Jayne to his breaking point. He tries to turn on Mal, p*sses off Zoe (which even Jayne normally wouldn't dare), and ultimately tries to kill River (say what you will, I can't but believe that Jayne was well aware of what that "nice shuttle ride" would inevitably have resulted in: the Operative finds River and either returns her to That Place, or kills her. Jayne may not have been intending to pull the trigger, but he'd still have been guilty).

Then the Operative nukes Haven, and kills Jayne's buddy the Shepherd, and now Jayne is p*ssed off at this whoon-dan even more than he is at Mal.

By the end of it (we must presume, 'cause we don't actually hear anything from Jayne after the fight, we just see him helpin' Mal with the heavy lifting), Jayne is right back where he started from.

I'd imagine that Jayne's series existence would've been similar, ranging from betrayer to hero, but always ending up right back at that start point.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:02 AM

MILFORD

VERY INTERESTING! We know betrayal would have come at some point. After all we are talking about Joss, the man who gave us the pregnant vampire. The question is from whom? I think Jayne is the obvious character, but that means he's probably out.

What about this? There were rumblings that Zoe and Wash were going to have a baby. What if it was Wash (R.I.P.)? What if, in a fit of fatherly nobility, it is he who betrays River and Simon, and Mal by association? In War Stories he obviously has some issues with Mal and Zoe's relationship, what if this is the way he takes care of that? Talk about a shake up.

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:30 AM

DISKA

i always thought that it would have been believable to pair jayne with yo-saff-brig. both are mercenaries and would be good for each other, but kind of have another side to them.

in terms of jayne and mal then i think that the conversation in the BDM where mal asks jayne 'do you wanna fly this ship... well you cant!' is pretty pivitol. after jayne insults the browncoats and zoe tells him to walk away its clear that jayne doesnt have the same subversive or political motivations as mal and zoe. he doesnt always understand their actions or reasoning but he does respect it (at times).
maybe jayne's attempt at insurrection in the film can be attributed to Book's absence from the ship who was a really important moral compass.

"Dear diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:38 AM

MILFORD

Book and Jayne definitely had a rapport didn't they? I don't know, I'm still stuck on who would the betrayer be. When I started this thread I was trying to figure out how it WOULD be Jayne, but after rewiring my mind to Joss specifications, Jayne seems to be too obvious. He'd be there to throw us off I think. Not that he's not capable of it, but instead that he's entirely too capable. Maybe you guys are right, and Mal has him under his thumb. I could just see a season going along with Jayne becoming more and more frustrated with a lack of action and pay, making overtures that Simon and River, and by association Mal, are to blame. And then, ini the final episode, when the Alliance boards the ship to take them over they don't walk up to Jayne with the reward, but...who?

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 7:05 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

We do see some friction between Mal & Jayne in the BDM in the confrontation in the lounge area outside the infirmary. Jayne decides to get loud w/ Mal then decides to hit below the belt by asking Mal how many of his men survived Serenity Valley. Mal gets that "the real me" look on his face & turns on Jayne. Before any violence can insue though Zoe tells Jayne that he wants to leave the room right now. Showing the better part of valor Jayne skedaddles.

Obviously Jayne is starting to feel some loyalty to Mal & the crew, but it is still supersceded by his desire to save his own hide & turn a profit.

Don't get me wrong, there is good in Jayne, and I think w/ more time & exposure he has to Mal & the rest of the crew it will develop more. I think Jayne has been on his own so long and so used to looking out for # 1 that it will take some time to undo all of that.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:13 AM

MILFORD

That's true. I agree Jayne would eventually be a softy, but my real concern is in how he discovers that. Do you think the events in Serenity were enough to show him the light that Zoe and Mal use to find their way? Or would it take something else. Maybe the crew does something heroic for him. What do you guys think?

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:08 AM

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
That's true. I agree Jayne would eventually be a softy, but my real concern is in how he discovers that. Do you think the events in Serenity were enough to show him the light that Zoe and Mal use to find their way? Or would it take something else. Maybe the crew does something heroic for him. What do you guys think?

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

Yeah, that's a really interesting thought. What if Jayne gets captured in more or less the same fashion as Mal did by Niska? Would all the crew go in after him on a "suicide mission" as Jayne himself puts it? And would this finally show Jayne how much the others care for him?

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Of course I'm right. And if I'm not, may we all be horribly crushed from above somehow."

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:13 AM

CORNCOBB

I always imagined that Jayne and Mal would someday act out the conversation that Wash's dinosaurs had in the Serenity episode. You know the one...

SERENITY LANDS ON AN INHABITABLE BUT VACANT PLANET, AND THE CREW DECIDE TO TAKE SHORE LEAVE.

MAL: We shall rule over all this land and we shall call it... this land.

JAYNE (suddenly bringing out a weapon): I think we should call it your grave!

MAL: Curse your sudden yet inevitable betrayal.

Etc...

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 3:52 PM

SPACEMANSPIFF

It's worth noting that Serenity is probably the best place Jayne has lived since he left home (and maybe even including that). He has his own room, run of the kitchen, and a decent group of people to work with. He'd want to be real sure turning on them guaranteed him a better life.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:47 PM

AERIN

I totally agree about Jayne's arc in the BDM, but I would add a bit more. Jayne turns on River again when he finds out how dangerous she really is (by the way, this time he needed alcohol to work himself up to it), but on Miranda I think he accepts her again. When she freaks out and starts to damage Jayne's calm, the crew shushes him, but he goes and stands next to River and says she's right, that the whole world is dead for no reason. Yet again, once Jayne understands why life has been hard for River, he starts to pity and accept her.

I think Jayne standing up to Mal in Serenity was the teen-to-parent type rebellion that will always happen from time to time. Since Jayne wasn't in the war, he doesn't really understand Mal's intense dislike for the Alliance. He can't understand why Mal would risk them all by keeping River and flying through reaver territory. He lacks the imagination to anticipate what the Alliance is truly capable of. But I think once Jayne experiences Miranda, he's converted to the cause. After Mal's speach, he's the first to accept their probable suicide run, and does so on behalf of the rest of the crew. Then he slides the bottle to Simon, as if finally saying, "yah, now I get it, you guys are part of the crew."

Mal easily bribed Jayne away from his previous employment, but I don't think money could take him away from Serenity. Dobson couldn't bribe Jayne with enough money to buy his very own shiny ship. Maybe if things on Serenity got REALLY bad. Kaylee dying, people turning on each other, the crew doesn't feel like a family. Other than that, I think Jayne's loyalty to the crew long ago grew beyond where money could reach it. Maybe he would betray them to save his own family, or maybe he would betray Mal to save Kaylee, but I don't think an arrest by the Alliance would do it. The Alliance tends to make Jayne clam up (Bushwacked). That's his tough-guy response to a threat from the outside. I don't think he could be tortured into betraying the crew either. I think Joss intended Jayne to be this way; Adam Baldwin just made it happen sooner. Cordy was the girl-you-love-to-hate until you found out she's a real person also.

If I was trying to get a member of the crew to betray Mal, I'd definitely go after Kaylee. I love Kaylee, but she's not very strong. Remember, she already betrayed River to Jubal Early. A few serious threats of bodily harm is all it would take. The other way to get someone to betray Mal would be to do it in exchange for the life of one of the other crew members. Wash probably would have broken down if he was tortured alone, but would also do anything save Zoe. I don't think Mal, Zoe, Book, or Jayne would crack under torture, but Zoe has once before chosen her husband over Mal. Simon would betray any of the crew to save River, even Kaylee, but only in direst need. I couldn't say about Inara or River. They are mysteries.

This is an awesome thread!

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Tuesday, January 24, 2006 6:21 PM

20THCENTFOXHATER

I don't really know if it's been mentioned, as I dont feel like reading ALL of the responses (sorry, but, I got studyin' to do), so I will tell you what WILL happen to Jayne (stay positive people).

To set this up for you, it's a really small tidbit from the pilot "Serenity: Part 1". A line from Book, when he first meets Kaylee can sum up the ENTIRE series in the way it is structured. Here it is:

Kaylee: "So how come you don't care where you goin'?"
Book: "Because how you get there is the worthier part."

All of Firefly's plots build up to the climax over a long period of time, and then..... BAM!!! It's gone. Such as when Jayne shoots the space station in "Our Mrs. Reynolds". The story builds up over 38, 39 minutes and the climax is all of about 15 seconds.

So, what does this have to do with Jayne you ask? Well, that line of Book's, more than likely put in deliberately by Television God, I mean Joss, was to give the careful viewer what the show will be like.

This line is said in passing, along with another of Book's (from "The Message") which tells us EXACTLY how Jayne's life will turn out:

Jayne: "A man with a life like mine don't live all that long".
Book: "Oooh, I believe you will be around longer than any of us".

(Side note: I know these arent the EXACT wordings of the lines, but they are close.)

This line said in passing, like Book's line in "Serenity: Part 1", can be taken as true, and Jayne WILL be the last of the BDH's to be around, and more than likely will Captain Serenity many years after they have all moved on in their lives (Simon and Kaylee marrying-unless Joss kills one of them-, Zoe drifting away, River possibly "teaming up" with Jayne or finding her own life, Mal heroically dying in battle, Inara falling ill to that disease or whatnot that so many people think she has).

These last musings arent to be taken seriously, but my point on Jayne should be. Jayne will be the last of them to be alive and kickin'.

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 4:12 AM

MILFORD

Good point. I don't doubt that Jayne will be around the longes, and I don't doubt that he feels loyalty to the crew, now. But would he turn? I think so, but that means he wouldn't. Crafty ol'Joss, keepin us on our toes.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:08 AM

DISKA

jayne was sending home money to his mother and his sister which shows a softer side to him, so he was definitly steered by money. although having lived with the crew for that long and having been through so much he seems attatched in a sense to that way of life. although it would be really interesting to see how he would be after book's death.
after seeing river's actions in the film i'd like to think he'd be more respectful towards her.

"Dear diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:10 AM

MILFORD

That's true, but if he's willing to got to those lengths to take care of his mother and sister, what else would he do if that opportunity were threatened?

I could see an episode where we go to Casa Jayne and learn that he's the Son with the Heart of Gold who takes on a life of crime to take care of his family, but that seems a bit too predictable for Joss.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 6:31 AM

DISKA

it so frustrating that we dont get to see jaynes family, i can imgaine his mom as some loud lovely over bearning and over protective mom in some ways. maybe he rebels against mal in a father figure kind of way.

i think the fact that jayne sends money home shows he has a softer side and his own personal motivation but like you say, what lengths will he go to in order to look after his family, does he have any kind of loyalty to the crew of serenity? he does feel protective in a way and i guess thats why theres so much fan fic around the subject of kaylee and jayne. one of my favourite scenes in serenity the pilot is when jayne is crouching outside the infirmary to see how kaylees doing after shes been shot. he does have a sense of loyalty, just maybe not to river and simion who have previously threatened his family unit on the ship.

i like to think that he's created a kind of family tie to the crew, he could leave at any time and even though mal undermines him he still sticks around, mabe cuz he knows its the right thing to do in terms of rewards or maybe because he wants to.

"Dear diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:30 AM

DANIELFYRE

What I have to say about Jayne deals with him in the BDM. When he is told "you want to leave this room right now." Jayne does not fight, he does not even grumble but says "damn right I do" and leaves. I think this line is huge in Jayne's character development. It shows not so much an appology as a shame for what he said. Jayne was previously told to leave the room in the pilot after making the Kaylee/gynocology refrence, at which time he grumbled something fierce and made somewhat of a scene. I think him just leaving in the BDM shows a level of maturity he has reached, but as someone mentioned earlier that only means he's 3 instead of 2. The original question was if not Jayne then who? Kaylee seems the least obvious so of course it has to be her right? I guess it works along the same lines as Willow who Joss himself compares Kaylee to. Given the right reasons even the Ms. Innocent Sunshine will go all demon-witch on you.

I think the one that would turn on them all is Book. I say this based on the OiS vision from River. "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not...so where does that put you?" That shows that Book does still have an influence from his former life as...whatever he was, this cold uncaring for an innocent person shows that Book could just turn on ANYONE at a moment's notice.

Someone mentioned a disease Inara had...what disase? That confused the heck outta me.

-Dan

Ain't that just shiny?

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 7:35 AM

MILFORD

I remembered something yesterday, that Joss said. He said all his projects are about created family. So the idea of Jayne bonding with them in a familial way and refusing another opportunity to betray the crew makes perfect sense. The question then, is who will betray them, because you know it would come.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 4:44 PM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Aerin:
Yet again, once Jayne understands why life has been hard for River, he starts to pity and accept her.

Good point. If there's one thing Jayne would understand, I suspect it'd be life being hard on people. Ain't River's fault she's as she is.

In hindsight, there's also Jayne's line in the BDM, when he admits that he thinks it's "noble as a grape" the way Simon looks out for his sister. Bear in mind, this is from the pen of Joss "There Are No Irrelevant Details" Whedon. I do believe that's the highest compliment Jayne's ever paid anyone --let alone Simon.

Quote:
I couldn't say about Inara or River. They are mysteries.

Mal said it himself: "Inara wouldn't set us up intentionally." Equally telling that he immediately trusts that Inara would have caught any trap. The thought that Inara might have been deceived or mistaken just isn't possible. As much as she "fogs things up," he obviously trusts her as much as he trusts himself (which, this being Mal, is quite a thing). (If that ain't capital-L Love, I don't know what is.)

As for River. . . I feel great pity for anyone who tries to turn her against her family.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 5:18 PM

GUTTERBALL

This is a fascinating thread! I hope it's not presumptuous for a newbie like me to jump in, but this is just too much fun to pass up!

I think Jayne says it all in "Ariel" when he says, "It's not like I ratted you out to the Feds!" He says it as if it's a foregone conclusion that he would NEVER betray Mal. Simon and River -- the two so damaging to his calm...or to his Serenity, however you like -- he would drop like a pinless grenade. But Mal? Never.

And I think that once Mal draws the line -- that betraying ANY member of the crew means betraying HIM -- Jayne would never forget the lesson.

It's also interesting to note that only Jayne's plea for Mal to "make something up" saved his life. I honestly believe from the look on Mal's face that he intended to let Jayne get sucked out the air lock doors. And Jayne's plea, to me, meant that he KNEW it.

However, to the interesting idea of Kaylee betraying them, she basically has already, and I'm not talking about giving up the location of River's room in "Objects in Space".

In "War Stories", she not only didn't help much, but she actually dropped her gun and hid when the shooting started, leaving the crew's only way out unprotected. Now, that in itself isn't so bad because it's Kaylee, and Kaylee probably should never pick up a gun in the first place.

But expand on the idea of that show of cowardice -- don't hate me, Kaylee-lovers! What if the Alliance just plucked her away from one of the crew's jobs? What if they tortured her even a little? She couldn't stand up against Jubal Early's threat of violence. I can't imagine her actually withstanding even a touch of actual torture.

She'd give her crew up in a heartbeat -- not because she can be bought but because she's just not the stoic type. But again...that might be too obvious for the Television God...errr...Mr. Whedon.

My money for the non-obvious betrayal award-winner has to be Zoe. I just can't see her betraying Mal, let alone the rest of the crew. I'd love to see how that would play out.

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006 10:08 PM

AERIN

I agree that the crew can trust Inara. She's too smart to accidentally betray them and wouldn't do it for money. But what would it take to get her to give up Mal? Maybe nothing short of torture. I suspect The Operative could only get Inara to contact Mal because she truly believed he wouldn't come. Would Inara have waved Mal if she'd known he would come and believed The Operative could actually kill him? Hmmm.

I say River is a mystery because she could go into a crazy fugue and blow their cover at any moment. After Ariel and the BDM I think she's more in control and less likely to have a knifing-Jayne type incident. Still, you never know when she's going to be the traumatized little girl or the axe-wielding reaver-slayer!

I agree with Gutterball that the Alliance could easily nab Kaylee and get her to give up the BDH. Until the movie this was unlikely, but now they know where to look. If the Alliance captured Kaylee the BDH would storm into hell itself and upon rescuing her all would be forgiven. Who can hold a grudge against Kaylee?

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