Simon? by grummzaire

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Simon?

POSTED BY: GRUMMZAIRE
UPDATED: Sunday, January 29, 2006 16:57
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Sunday, January 29, 2006 6:52 AM

This subject may have already been conversed about, but I'm new here and I couldn't find any other thread about it...

Anyhow, what the heck is with Simon in Serenity over the Simon in Firefly? In the TV series, Simon seems to pretty much suck at everything except being a doctor. He's totally awkward and seems to complicate everything. He also seems to know nothing about the expirements being performed on River.

Then, in the movie, apparently he was the one who rescued River directly, had listened to the guy about a lot of the things that had been done to River, and seems to be rather skilled, smooth... and just... not like the Simon I remember.

Does anyone know why this is? Is there an explaination? What's the deal?

-g

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:29 AM

PURPLEBELLY

Did you forget about the criminal-mastermind? Simon of the Series does not suck at everything -- that's just Jayne's fantasy

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 7:40 AM

KIZYR

Oh. It's love.

At least, that's what I figure. The main part where he's skilled and smooth are those parts where he's directly saving / intervening for River.

It's kind of like me being a weakling. I'd likely get my pi-gu handed to me in a normal fight, but if someone laid a hand on my family I'd likely kick into overdrive. Simon did a lot of things he wouldn't normally do, but all because he wanted to save River. KF

~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:13 AM

GRUMMZAIRE

I still argue that Simon is only talented when it comes to medical things... even when he's a "criminal mastermind" its related to a hospital and medical supplies.

And that still doesn't explain why the doctor guy explains stuff about River, but in the show Simon has no idea at all. I felt it was implied in the show that Simon wasn't directly involved in her rescue.

-g

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:17 AM

VOSHEXETER

I guess I hear what you're saying. I read on this site that the "in between-quel" comic issues might have shed some light on events in between the episodes and the movie. I haven't found them yet though. Still looking.

voshExeter

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 8:36 AM

DRE

I think you're right. Simon is somewhat rewritten for the movie - and I think it was the one hit Joss took to bring non-Browncoats into the know about River and Simon's past (probably also to make it more dramatic for a cinematic release). The other rewrite is in how Mal and Simon act towards each other - in the movie Mal is still distanced from Simon ("I look out for me and mine. That don't include you 'less I conjure it does."), and River too. Although the episodes SAFE and OBJECTS IN SPACE basically had Simon and River "becoming" part of Mal's crew.
Also, given the brainscan from Ariel -and- knowledge gained from Dr. Mathias and such in the movie, you'd think Simon would've known much more easily how to help River.

So I think Joss decided rewriting a bit of Simon and Mal, etc., was better than trying to weave in an awkward exposition of what happened with River.

My two cents.

IKIYO.
DRE

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:21 AM

CYBERSNARK

We're assuming that Simon was actually paying attention to what Matthias was saying in the intro. Entirely possible that, as outwardly cool and composed as he looked, his belly was doing flip-flops, he was half-suffocating from trying not to hyperventilate, and he was praying with all his might that he wouldn't suddenly give himself away or otherwise frell up and end up dead. He was probably pretty stressed.

Maybe most of Matthias' report just went in one ear and out the other.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 9:50 AM

THEONETRUEBIX

The only bit overtly rewritten was the rescue, but Joss has now adopted the popular fanwank that puts this back into continuity by making it that Simon partly lied to the crew when he told them the rescue story in the serie pilot. (He had only just met this crew of criminals... why tell them the whole truth?)

As for sucking at things, you're forgetting not only the criminal mastermind (which included, not so incidentally, an explanation that while it's difficult to break into an Alliance facility, it isn't impossible), we've also seen him spring into being Action Simon -- more than once, in fact.

As for knowledge about River, two issues: One, just as the above fanwank has Simon lying to the crew about how the rescue happened, it's easy to suggest that he also did his best to keep the crew from learnign River was a psychic, because that just would have made the crew even more nervous about having them aboard at all.

While he may have known some of what was done to her, that is not the same as having the specific medical data needed to study it in order to treat or reverse it... hence the scheme to get into the Ariel hospital to get brain scans.

As for Simon and Mal. There's not necessarily any clear indication in OiS that Mal outright accepts Simon and River, though he certainly has a new attitude towards River. That's point one. Point two is that in the time intervening between series and film, Mal has already lost two members of his makeshift family -- Inara and Book. With a guy like Mal, that's the sort of thing that would make him close up again.

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:35 PM

PIRATEJENNY

Quote:
I still argue that Simon is only talented when it comes to medical things... even when he's a "criminal mastermind" its related to a hospital and medical supplies.

And that still doesn't explain why the doctor guy explains stuff about River, but in the show Simon has no idea at all. I felt it was implied in the show that Simon wasn't directly involved in her rescue.

I always got the feeling on the show that Simion new way more about Rivers condition then what he was letting on to the crew and if you think about if ,it would make sense, simon my be awkward but he's not stupid he he told Mal that River had certain skills Mal probably wouldn't have let them stay on the ship knowing what a loose canon she was.

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:50 PM

GRUMMZAIRE

I accept these explainations and will continue on with my happy life, watching firefly until the day I die

-g

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 3:54 PM

ASARIAN

Hi Grummzaire,

I am surprisingly green to the whole FireFly/Serenity scene; a fact, however, which does not deter me from commenting on this topic, after all. :)

In Serenity, I would say Simon is perhaps a bit more self-confident; but his assertiveness is skin-deep, though ("This isn't fear, it's anger"). And I would not say he is awkward, per se, in FireFly; rather, he is awkward around 'rough' gents like Jayne. But when it comes to falling in with his own crowd, the intelligentsia and well-mannered, high-society people, I believe he is quite in his element.

In the military facility, Simon is downright brilliant. He asks questions. But, I believe, it is a first for him too to hear some of the details of River's treatment divulged. He is both clueless and fishing at the same time:

"What use do we have for a psychic, if she's insane?"

He is assessing the extent of the damage. Also:

"How is she physically?"

Same deal. In fact, at some point, as he's apparently asking too many questions, Dr. Mathias starts to become suspicious and inquires whether there is perhaps a reason for his inspection. He resolves that situation masterfully, by asking:

"Am I making you nervous?"

(successfully banking on the hope that Dr. Mathias' fear of being accused of not cooperating with an ongoing investigation outweighs any sense of suspicion he might have.)

Yes, Simon is very smooth in that scene, and strong and convincing. But, remember, this guy spent months preparing this operation, so as to pass off as a convincing inspector. And he is, after all, a brilliant man; and talking from Doctor to Doctor, to boot, so he should be well familiar with the part.

How much did Simon really know about River's condition? Not all that much, I reckon:

"The people who helped me break River out had intel that River and the other subjects were being embedded with behavioral conditioning."

When Mal asks for what occasions the safe word was supposed to be used, they exchange these words:

Simon: "They never said what."
Mal: "And you never did ask."

Simon knew more than the let on to the Serenity crew; but only marginally so. And when asked why he did not share this extra info with the crew, he responds from a genuine belief that there was no real danger:

"I thought she was getting better."

Simon, a man after my heart.

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam.

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Sunday, January 29, 2006 4:57 PM

REGINAROADIE

I was never that put off or startled in how Simon had changed between the series and the movie. If annything, it was one detail that I actually enjoyed about the flick.

My reasoning behind all that's been mentioned is that on the Core, in his natural habitat, he would be a smooth operator. But in the Outer Rim, around roughnecks like Mal and Jayne, he would have a hard time adapting, because it's uncharted territory in his mind. And that during the between time of OiS and the BDM where Mal became a darker character, Simon in turn has become a bit more resilient, in that if someone pushes him, he pushes back.

Also, I liked it for a personal reason. Of all the characters on the show, Simon was the character I identified with the most, which is why most of my fanfics are centered on him. If Mal is Han Solo, then Simon is clearly Luke Skywalker. He's the young man whose lived a somewhat sheltered life who now had to deal with the real world around him. That the metaphor, IMHO, that's attached to Simon. And aspects of the journey that he's made in the canon are apects that any young person would go through in like their early 20's. Simon's journey is, in some ways, our journey, despite the fact that very few of us look like a refugee from some WB teen show.

So to see him go from being essentially a punching bag to a confident man who can stand his own ground (and get it on with Kaylee finally) is satisfying to me on so many levels.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"YES!!!I'm a man posessed by many demons....Polite demons that would open the door for a lady carrying too many parcels...BUT DEMONS NONETHELESS!!!! Yes. I have walked along the path of evil many times, it's a twisting, curving path that..actually leads to a charming plot garden, BUT BEYOND THAT EVIL!!!"

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